Joan Burton Heckled

mikom

jank wrote: »

Hard to do what?

You'll have to speak up.......... I'm in Ireland ya see.

AlekSmart

jank wrote: »

Hard to do what?

Protest...I think....

Royal Legend

jank wrote: »

Acting like animals is NOT a legitimate form of protest!

Good man yerself,

How is it acting like animals?

Quiet protest, candlelit vigils, petitions, none of these work, they just ignore it waiting for it to go away.

At least they scuppered whatever plans she had for that day and stopped he from spouting more inane rhetoric. Whoever the protesters were, I say well done to them.

Zebra3

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't see many young ladies with buggies or prams there in the video.

Nah, sure they left their kids in the pub.

Amirani

KyussBishop wrote: »

You don't understand what centralized bond issuance is; individual countries do not buy up bonds (thus individual countries are not 'financing' anyone), they are bought up on the bond markets, and they are not a 'bailout', they are no different to Ireland selling bonds on the markets for funding, except these are EU-wide and at much better rates.

Understand what you're criticizing, instead of throwing out straw-men.

I know exactly what centralised bond issuance is and I know exactly why Eurozone states do not want to engage in it. I had a discussion with one of Ireland's delegates to the ECB about this a couple of months ago and he said there's no appetite for such measures from the more stable EU economies. The Germans and the Dutch want strict monetary control, it's not in their interests to use monetary policy to sort out national deficits. A breakup of the Eurozone would be more palatable to their citizens.

Why exactly do you think your solution is not being implemented?

KyussBishop

NiallSparky wrote: »

I know exactly what centralised bond issuance is and I know exactly why Eurozone states do not want to engage in it. I had a discussion with one of Ireland's delegates to the ECB about this a couple of months ago and he said there's no appetite for such measures from the more stable EU economies. The Germans and the Dutch want strict monetary control, it's not in their interests to use monetary policy to sort out national deficits. A breakup of the Eurozone would be more palatable to their citizens.

Why exactly do you think your solution is not being implemented?

If you know then why are you equating it with a bailout, and stating that it puts risk on Germany and the Netherlands when it does no such thing, when it is the bond markets putting money into it, not individual countries?

Refer back to my first post on this as well, where I specifically address the circumstance where other EU nations do not support this:

KyussBishop wrote: »

The solution is pretty simple: The EU implements some actual recovery policies, most likely involving centralized bond issuance (possibly supplemented by money creation), and from the funds that can be generated through that, invest them throughout the EU to create jobs, or the EU will eventually fall apart (which could take the best part of a decade, causing enormous damage while countries are in limbo).

If such recovery policies are not going to happen at an EU level (as many would argue), and if the EU is thus going to fall apart anyway due to inaction and lack of recovery policies, then there is no sense delaying the pain of the inevitable breakup, and every reason to get back local control of monetary policy (which is another solution, but far more painful than the 'best case' scenario, of an EU-level recovery).

You're very quick to try and pour scorn on the argument, even when your trite point of "Germany will never agree to that" was already addressed.

What do you see happening to the EU in the absence of any recovery policies? Do you think the EU is actually going to stay together for the next decade, while periphery countries are being destroyed? What do you think happens in the next economic crisis, when the EU still has no recovery policies in place?

If you see no sensible monetary/recovery system being put in place, then it is obvious the EU is going to fall apart eventually anyway, and we are eventually going to suffer the pains of a reintroduction of local currency and defaults regardless of how long we wait; unless of course, actually sensible reforms are put in place.

So if we give up on an EU recovery (like many people insist), and the current policy path is highly likely to lead to a breakup of the EU anyway, then that pretty much leaves no logical reason for delaying a reintroduction of local currency.

jank

mikom wrote: »

You'll have to speak up.......... I'm in Ireland ya see.

I see that the recession has made you deaf as well as a begrudger!

dxhound2005

One of the protesters was on LMFM this morning, Michael Reade show. Starts at 1 min 30 for about 12 mins. He got very prickly when asked about the involvement of the Trotskyite SWP in the affair. Their pretence to be interested in the wellbeing of ordinary people is contemptible. They don't even believe in the concept of private property and use fascist tactics to shout down free speech. This sort of activity needs to be resisted by all democratic forces in the country. If they ever got into power you can see from North Korea what we could expect.

http://www.lmfm.ie/Podcasts/Podcasts

3ndahalfof6

Saying something is better than saying nothing, while the demonstration might not be to the liking of some people here it is a start, I am sure the people involved will go away and look at how they might be more successful on their next tirade,

things have to start somewhere and someone needs to be there to start things, while it might seem savage now I am sure it can become civil,

once the people who are shouting become many and get listened to, is there a blue print for this type of action?

enough is enough is enough, the reason the people of DLK were protesting, not killing just protesting, as said earlier, if I sit with a candle and my mouth closed nobody will hear me,

shout and shout loud, enough is enough is enough, while some posters do not see the advantage of coming together and letting the plebs who decide our future know they are wrong,

put on your brave face.

maringo

See in earlier post fathers name will have to be put on a birth cert - its about time - will give the fathers rights I expect and also financial responsibilities. Too many fathers in this country expecting the taxpayer and the mother to pick up their bills for the raising of their children. And I'm sure a lot of fathers would like to have more of a role in their child's upbringing too. :D:D

HoggyRS

Madam_X wrote: »

Well I agree with protesting, but being a bunch of jeering dickheads is only undermining the protest and protestors.

jank wrote: »

Acting like animals is NOT a legitimate form of protest!

Jesus wept. Should they've rang ahead and asked joan if she minded if they voiced their opinions? Maybe the government could sanction when people were allowed to protest and when they weren't and which key chants they were allowed use? Otherwise sure, we'd be acting like animals.

The spineless idiots in this country would make you sick. If your happy to let politicians **** you then fine but don't crib when others aren't so content.

Madam_X

Disagreeing with protesting in such a manner doesn't mean being happy with being ****ed.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One of the protesters was on LMFM this morning, Michael Reade show. Starts at 1 min 30 for about 12 mins. He got very prickly when asked about the involvement of the Trotskyite SWP in the affair. Their pretence to be interested in the wellbeing of ordinary people is contemptible. They don't even believe in the concept of private property and use fascist tactics to shout down free speech. This sort of activity needs to be resisted by all democratic forces in the country. If they ever got into power you can see from North Korea what we could expect.

http://www.lmfm.ie/Podcasts/Podcasts

No, Ireland would not become like North Korea if they were in power.

3ndahalfof6

Madam_X wrote: »

Disagreeing with protesting in such a manner doesn't mean being happy with being ****ed.

No, Ireland would not become like North Korea if they were in power.

How about sticking to where Ireland will end up and how you contribute to the new being.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One of the protesters was on LMFM this morning, Michael Reade show. Starts at 1 min 30 for about 12 mins. He got very prickly when asked about the involvement of the Trotskyite SWP in the affair. Their pretence to be interested in the wellbeing of ordinary people is contemptible. They don't even believe in the concept of private property and use fascist tactics to shout down free speech. This sort of activity needs to be resisted by all democratic forces in the country. If they ever got into power you can see from North Korea what we could expect.

http://www.lmfm.ie/Podcasts/Podcasts

Don't know much about that crowd but can they be any worse or unmannerly than Noonan, Howlin and Rabbitte shouting down speakers in the Dail and not allowing them make their points? Maybe that's who they learned it from.

jank

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Saying something is better than saying nothing,.

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There, I said something. All is right with the world now.

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

shout and shout loud, enough is enough is enough, while some posters do not see the advantage of coming together and letting the plebs who decide our future know they are wrong,

So we are going from saying something to shouting. What atlernatives are these people talking about?

jank

HoggyRS wrote: »

Jesus wept. Should they've rang ahead and asked joan if she minded if they voiced their opinions? Maybe the government could sanction when people were allowed to protest and when they weren't and which key chants they were allowed use? Otherwise sure, we'd be acting like animals.

The spineless idiots in this country would make you sick. If your happy to let politicians **** you then fine but don't crib when others aren't so content.

I think you misread my original post. People are free to protest but my issues with here was that people were acting like animals in a public place, shouting down an elected representative. In no way shape or fashion I am a fan of labour, I have lots of posts here to back this up but shouting down someone because you disagree with them is behaviour of the thugish kind.

What was their alternative strategy, some populist "tax the rich" nonesense?

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't know much about that crowd but can they be any worse or unmannerly than Noonan, Howlin and Rabbitte shouting down speakers in the Dail and not allowing them make their points? Maybe that's who they learned it from.

If the likes of them got to power you might as well hand over all your wages to the state. They would nationalise lots of industries for the good of the nation and spend their way to oblivion to make us Greece part II, so yea it would be a hell of a lot worse then FG/Labour.

Whats more the people agree, see the last election.

mikom

jank wrote: »

I see that the recession has made you deaf as well as a begrudger!

Just here keeping my shoulder to the wheel.

Yep the yak, yak of the returnees would make anyone deaf.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGq4S2HgZ5k

Amirani

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you know then why are you equating it with a bailout, and stating that it puts risk on Germany and the Netherlands when it does no such thing, when it is the bond markets putting money into it, not individual countries? [\quote]

The ECB and hence Eurozone states are ultimately responsible for the bonds that it issues. As a lender of last resort, there's never a danger of them having to default on bond repayments due to their ability to print money. The stronger Eurozone states don't want QE though because of their sometimes irrational fear of inflation. Hence it's easier for them to issue bonds that they themselves can comfortably repay rather than allowing the ECB to issue higher yield bonds that they'll indirectly have to support via a reduction in the value of German savings that could be brought about by printing to pay these more expensive centalised bonds. It's not a guarantee that the ECB will have to print to cover them, but it is a risk, and a risk that Germany doesn't feel it needs to take.

Refer back to my first post on this as well, where I specifically address the circumstance where other EU nations do not support this:


You're very quick to try and pour scorn on the argument, even when your trite point of "Germany will never agree to that" was already addressed.

What do you see happening to the EU in the absence of any recovery policies? Do you think the EU is actually going to stay together for the next decade, while periphery countries are being destroyed? What do you think happens in the next economic crisis, when the EU still has no recovery policies in place?

If you see no sensible monetary/recovery system being put in place, then it is obvious the EU is going to fall apart eventually anyway, and we are eventually going to suffer the pains of a reintroduction of local currency and defaults regardless of how long we wait; unless of course, actually sensible reforms are put in place.

So if we give up on an EU recovery (like many people insist), and the current policy path is highly likely to lead to a breakup of the EU anyway, then that pretty much leaves no logical reason for delaying a reintroduction of local currency.

There's a lot of kicking the can down the road happening. The Eurozone is hoping that some growth in the world economy will eventually fix the ills of periphal Euro countries such as Ireland.

I do agree with you that there needs to a more concrete strategy that does involve centralised bond issuance. If we're going to have a federal monetary system though, we do need some federal control on fiscal policy. Quantitative Easing and Centralised Bond Issuance should be happening in the the Eurozone, but so too should deficit reduction via fiscal policy. Germany needs to take the pinch associated with using monetary policy to help the Eurozone but Ireland as a caveat has to be hitting its 3% deficit targets. There is no fairer solution that will actually deliver results.

KyussBishop

NiallSparky wrote: »

The ECB and hence Eurozone states are ultimately responsible for the bonds that it issues. As a lender of last resort, there's never a danger of them having to default on bond repayments due to their ability to print money. The stronger Eurozone states don't want QE though because of their sometimes irrational fear of inflation. Hence it's easier for them to issue bonds that they themselves can comfortably repay rather than allowing the ECB to issue higher yield bonds that they'll indirectly have to support via a reduction in the value of German savings that could be brought about by printing to pay these more expensive centalised bonds. It's not a guarantee that the ECB will have to print to cover them, but it is a risk, and a risk that Germany doesn't feel it needs to take.

Printing doesn't inherently reduce the value of any savings beyond what would happen anyway, due to hitting the inflation target; so long as the inflation target is not exceeded, there is no additional effect on savings (and that target can be relaxed as well, as a matter of policy).

There is pretty much no risk on the centralized bonds, as they would actually stabilize EU countries, and with the right supplementary policies, would eliminate the chances of any defaults; the increase in economic activity they would allow as well, would more than make possible, servicing of debts without the need for monetary financing (which in itself, could be specifically pursued for funding, limited by inflation targets).

NiallSparky wrote: »

There's a lot of kicking the can down the road happening. The Eurozone is hoping that some growth in the world economy will eventually fix the ills of periphal Euro countries such as Ireland.

I do agree with you that there needs to a more concrete strategy that does involve centralised bond issuance. If we're going to have a federal monetary system though, we do need some federal control on fiscal policy. Quantitative Easing and Centralised Bond Issuance should be happening in the the Eurozone, but so too should deficit reduction via fiscal policy. Germany needs to take the pinch associated with using monetary policy to help the Eurozone but Ireland as a caveat has to be hitting its 3% deficit targets. There is no fairer solution that will actually deliver results.

Okey, but there is pretty much zero chance of world economy growth solving the issue in periphery nations, and that would occur over the timescale of about decade I think, because the US is about to enter into deeper austerity (with the 'sequestration'/debt-ceiling stuff), and economies all over the world are slowing down still.

I agree that fiscal policy needs to be centralized to an extent, but once centralized bond issuance and/or monetary financing are normalized, it no longer makes sense to be engaging in deficit reduction, because the availability of centralized EU funding would make that obsolete; the deficit gap would be closed by investing in economies (rather than choking them with austerity), thus restoring full employment and full economic activity, driving tax intake up and thus closing the deficit gap that way.

This would be inherently beneficial to all EU nations, including Germany (whose economy is also gradually slowing, due to wider EU inactivity), because the increased economic activity pretty much benefits everyone, whereas even Germany is worse off on the current path (due to slowing economic activity), as opposed to this alternative path.