Changes to the team for France

duckysauce

jacothelad wrote: »

Jackson missed a kick to touch. That of course has never happened before to any Irish rugby player ever in the history of rugby union. What happened after that is not down to him. Experienced Ireland players had possession and territory after it. Perhaps DOC not actually understanding the laws of the breakdown was the turning point. Jackson didn't give away that penalty, DOC did. Jackson didn't refuse to pass, Kearney did. Whatever his flaws in this game he didn't cause DOC to seal off the ball.

All true but as O Shea said in the Rte towers it was the turning point , it wasn't doc kicking , kearney should have taken it , Jackson went for too much length will happen again , but in your first matches get the ball in if its only 20-30m ahead just get it in , he will be a fine player still a tad too young , he will have learnt loads today .

Bruce Fan 1

Heaslip has been terrible all year. Remember that dreadful pass to Zebo, that would have cost us the Wales game only for that flick. Then his knock ons and 2 stupid penalties against England. The media all blamed the kicking but Jamie was no 1 culprit.
Murrays kicking again today was poor & his delivery too slow. I would drop Heaslip, Murray, Earls purely for his old failing to pass the ball re emerging and the fact his defence is poor. While Jackson should not have been picked, to drop him now might have long term effects on his confidence. Why does Kearney not take the penalties, other than kicks to goal. If he did we would not have had that turning pt when we missed touch

awec

To be fair to Jackson, other than the one he missed touch with all his other penalties from hand were spot on. Those penalties are not the problem, it is the placed kicks that are the issue.

duckysauce

Bruce Fan 1 wrote: »

Heaslip has been terrible all year. Remember that dreadful pass to Zebo, that would have cost us the Wales game only for that flick. Then his knock ons and 2 stupid penalties against England. The media all blamed the kicking but Jamie was no 1 culprit.
Murrays kicking again today was poor & his delivery too slow. I would drop Heaslip, Murray, Earls purely for his old failing to pass the ball re emerging and the fact his defence is poor. While Jackson should not have been picked, to drop him now might have long term effects on his confidence. Why does Kearney not take the penalties, other than kicks to goal. If he did we would not have had that turning pt when we missed touch

ask deccie

its_phil

jacothelad wrote: »

Jackson missed a kick to touch. That of course has never happened before to any Irish rugby player ever in the history of rugby union. What happened after that is not down to him. Experienced Ireland players had possession and territory after it. Perhaps DOC not actually understanding the laws of the breakdown was the turning point. Jackson didn't give away that penalty, DOC did. Jackson didn't refuse to pass, Kearney did. Whatever his flaws in this game he didn't cause DOC to seal off the ball.

With that logic, you may as well never criticize any mistake ever made on a rugby pitch. It never would of happened if Jackson had made his touch like he was supposed to do. The reason DOC and Kearney were put in their positions on the pitch can be traced back to Jackson fluffing his lines. DOC and Kearney played their part too. It was unfortunate that it was the turning point, but there is always one in any close game and unfortunately Jackson was on the wrong side of one against Scotland. I have no doubt he'll be on the right side on other days.

I'm not putting the loss on Jacksons shoulders I would like to add. There were a lot of mistakes by a lot of players today.

desertcircus

Bruce Fan 1 wrote: »

Heaslip has been terrible all year. Remember that dreadful pass to Zebo, that would have cost us the Wales game only for that flick. Then his knock ons and 2 stupid penalties against England. The media all blamed the kicking but Jamie was no 1 culprit.
Murrays kicking again today was poor & his delivery too slow. I would drop Heaslip, Murray, Earls purely for his old failing to pass the ball re emerging and the fact his defence is poor. While Jackson should not have been picked, to drop him now might have long term effects on his confidence. Why does Kearney not take the penalties, other than kicks to goal. If he did we would not have had that turning pt when we missed touch

A single subpar pass in a game we won by eight points is enough to say we'd have lost and declare the passer had a terrible game?

thomond2006

Bruce Fan 1 wrote: »

Heaslip has been terrible all year. Remember that dreadful pass to Zebo, that would have cost us the Wales game only for that flick. Then his knock ons and 2 stupid penalties against England. The media all blamed the kicking but Jamie was no 1 culprit.
Murrays kicking again today was poor & his delivery too slow. I would drop Heaslip, Murray, Earls purely for his old failing to pass the ball re emerging and the fact his defence is poor. While Jackson should not have been picked, to drop him now might have long term effects on his confidence. Why does Kearney not take the penalties, other than kicks to goal. If he did we would not have had that turning pt when we missed touch

Murray only kicked three times.

Crimsonforce

Rog out of match day squad , madigan in starting line up
Jackson to bench
Earls out of match day squad, Fitzgerald to take place in starting line up
McFadden to bench to replace fitz

This means we have plenty of kickers in the team...

Heaslip I'm just not too sure what to say about this guy, turning up to captains toss prior to the match with his oversize beats headphones for 12 year olds wrapped around his head says a lot..

.ak

The next person to mention Heaslip's headphones can take a break. Talk about the rugby, people.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

The next person to mention Heaslip's headphones can take a break. Talk about the rugby, people.

Just one question though, where can I buy my own pair? :pac:

Kayless

Personally I would bench Heaslip for the next match the same as Wales have done with Warburton, the guy is just not playing well at all and I'm really not sure about him being caption

Hippo

Kayless wrote: »

Personally I would bench Heaslip for the next match the same as Wales have done with Warburton, the guy is just not playing well at all and I'm really not sure about him being caption

Heaslip actually played pretty well yesterday, but I think the captaincy is definitely an issue.

awec

Heaslip is captain. Given the circumstances under which he assumed the captaincy I think to drop him would be madness and would totally destroy his confidence.

He needs a chance to win over the rest of the support, he just needs a word in his ear in private really.

Crimsonforce

awec wrote: »

Heaslip is captain. Given the circumstances under which he assumed the captaincy I think to drop him would be madness and would totally destroy his confidence.

He needs a chance to win over the rest of the support, he just needs a word in his ear in private really.

He wont be able to hear them becuase he has his headphones on

.ak

Crimsonforce wrote: »

He wont be able to hear them becuase he has his headphones on

:rolleyes:

Banned.

BoardsMember

Madigan on the bench.

If Sexton not fit, McFadden (kicker) for Earls, keep Jackson; otherwise Fitz on the wing for Earls.

You cant take the captaincy off Heaslip mid season, not good for anyone/anything.

accidentprone1

Crimsonforce wrote: »

He wont be able to hear them becuase he has his headphones on

*facepalm* I can just imagine your finger shaking over left-mouse button before you sent that...

BoardsMember

Kayless wrote: »

Personally I would bench Heaslip for the next match the same as Wales have done with Warburton, the guy is just not playing well at all and I'm really not sure about him being caption

We dont have a Tipuric to put in instead of Heaslip. there's absolutely no sense in suggesting replacing a player, especially your captain, unless there is an unarguably better alternative than him. He played pretty well yesterday, not many played better.

Timothy Bryce

awec wrote: »

Heaslip is captain. Given the circumstances under which he assumed the captaincy I think to drop him would be madness and would totally destroy his confidence.

He needs a chance to win over the rest of the support, he just needs a word in his ear in private really.

I may be wrong, but I recall BOD being quite similar in the early part of his career (running around Krystle with Glenda etc.). I get the impression someone had a word in his ear at that time and he's been the consummate professional ever since.

mod editted out part was here

Barzipan

TopOfTheRight wrote: »

I think Earls has to go to the bench, whomever gets picked at 11 depends on the outhalf imo. Resst of the team to stay the same.
I'd stick with Paddy anyway, Ferg to kick - ROG out of the 23 goes without saying

Either

10. Jackson
11. McFadden

or

10. Madigan
11. Fitzgerald


Agree with your first choice. Kidney will start Jackson again so we need a place kicker and McFadden is obvious choice. Thought Jackson was pretty average aside from place kicking. Didn't control the game. But would never drop a player based on one game. Earls has real pace and an eye for a gap and one of few Irish players who can make things happen but the rest of his game hasn't developed very much. Decision not to pass to O'Driscoll was pure selfish. So think I'd drop him rather than Gilroy who is solid and got the try yest. Madigan/Keatley/anyone to replace O'Gara on the bench obviously!

Other than that a few players need much improved performances. Not sure whats going on with Best's throwing - he won't get near the Lions 15 unless he sorts that out. Healy's ball carrying was really missed I thought (as was his scrummaging). He takes some pressure of SOB who increasingly is trying to do it all himself. POM was a bit absent although he's been good in first 2 games. Needs to do more though especially in attack. Wouldn't worry about his tackling stats - our defense has been very solid. Is it my imagination or was Heaslip once very effective at picking from the base of the scrum? He does work tirelessly in the tight but captaincy seems to be more of a burden than anything.

On a positive note Marshall looks a very exciting prospect. Great to see those clean breaks - been awhile since we saw that from our centres.

Leslie91

So much for Tom Court.

If Healy is not back we have to go with Kilcoyne, Court is a passenger, been saying it for ages.

If Sexton is not back, I say stick with Paddy but have Madigan on bench. McFadden should be kicker and should come in for 'blinkers' Earls. Fitz stays on bench, Earls dropped.

I'd seriously look at Henderson coming in for DOC. Toner on bench, move on from DOC.

The big question now is do we drop Heaslip and make BOD captain for the last 2 games. If we do have SOB play number 8 and maybe bring back Muldoon or Ruddock.

.ak

TBH, I'd be VERY surprised if there's any changes for France, apart from returning injuries.

awec

1. Court was not the only problem in the scrum. Even when he went off and Kilcoyne came on our scrum still went backward. There was an underlying issue there yesterday, I don't know what it was. Either way, totally unfair to blame Court for it.

2. Not all of Best's throws were bad. On occasions his throw was fine but nobody jumped. That's not Best's fault.

3. Heaslip is not going to lose the captaincy. A total non runner.

Leslie91

awec wrote: »

1. Court was not the only problem in the scrum. Even when he went off and Kilcoyne came on our scrum still went backward. There was an underlying issue there yesterday, I don't know what it was. Either way, totally unfair to blame Court for it.

2. Not all of Best's throws were bad. On occasions his throw was fine but nobody jumped. That's not Best's fault.

3. Heaslip is not going to lose the captaincy. A total non runner.

I'm not saying Court is the only problem in the scrum but he's a big part of it. It's not just his performance at scrum time though, the guy appears to me to be a chancer who just doesn't put it in. He lumbers around ends up standing on the side of rucks or leaning on a maul. Seems to be too nice a guy to front up and hit some lads.

.ak

Leslie91 wrote: »

I'm not saying Court is the only problem in the scrum but he's a big part of it. It's not just his performance at scrum time though, the guy appears to me to be a chancer who just doesn't put it in. He lumbers around ends up standing on the side of rucks or leaning on a maul. Seems to be too nice a guy to front up and hit some lads.

You obviously haven't watched any of his games this season. The lad is a monster.

Leslie91

.ak wrote: »

You obviously haven't watched any of his games this season. The lad is a monster.

I've seen plenty of games and respectfully disagree, the monster playing in the front row for Ulster is Afoa, and another monster playing in Ireland is Cian Healy.

.ak

Leslie91 wrote: »

I've seen plenty of games and respectfully disagree, the monster playing in the front row for Ulster is Afoa, and another monster playing in Ireland is Cian Healy.

Afoa didn't do too well over the weekend. I like John, but he's a little overrated in the scrum.

Quint2010

Seriously lads-after a nights sleep-there is only one conclusion I have come to regarding OH and that Kidney will pick ROG. He will take the view that not picking him cost us the game yesterday and he will be first name on the team sheet for France.

ScissorPaperRock

What are the chances that we'll have Sexton back for the France game?

maddragon

Quint2010 wrote: »

Seriously lads-after a nights sleep-there is only one conclusion I have come to regarding OH and that Kidney will pick ROG. He will take the view that not picking him cost us the game yesterday and he will be first name on the team sheet for France.

What's Tony Ward doing at the moment?

Quint2010

maddragon wrote: »

What's Tony Ward doing at the moment?

Ha I loved his "lunacy" comment yesterday after ROG's brainfart

thebaz

.ak wrote: »

You obviously haven't watched any of his games this season. The lad is a monster.

perhaps he is at club level , but Court scrummaging isn't good eneogh for international rugby , found out once too often

gcgirl

Fooker wrote: »

DROP ALL THE PLAYERS!!! :pac:

And Stick the Ladies Team Out

With Philip Doyle Manager

Swiwi

Podge_irl wrote: »

If its the time I'm thinking of (and I haven't watched the game back) I don't think Kearney did anything wrong. He ran the ball back, got tackled and then presented the ball cleanly. It was the supporting players flopping into the ruck that was the problem.


In reference to the general point of why they don't change up who is kicking to touch - I imagine its the same reason that they don't get other players to maintain goal kicking. There is a fetish in Ireland for the 10 being solely responsible for kicking everything.

Swiwi wrote: »

A fetish might be taking it a bit too far...

(If the mods will permit this wee joke - if not please delete on my behalf)

...well, actually, maybe not. We all know that ROG has long remained a favourite of DK, and we were all surprised when Jackson was chosen as outhalf for Saturday, what we didn't know is that Saturday was actually DKs birthday. Earlier in the week, Mrs Kidney had asked Deccie what he wanted for his birthday. A sly smile crossed his face, and he whispered something in her ear. "That shouldn't be a problem", she innocently replied.

Lo and behold the team list came out, and Declan got a shock to see the Ulster fly-half was starting in place of ROG. "What the hell is the meaning of this?", Kidney asked his media liaison officer. "Well, Mrs Kidney intervened on your behalf, saying it was your birthday, and this was your birthday wish". Deccie raced home and confronted his wife. "Well that was what you wanted for your birthday, wasn't it?", she said. "No it wasn't", and he whispered again in her ear. "Oh, I'm really sorry", she blushed, "I thought you said PJ"...

Quint2010

Swiwi wrote: »

(If the mods will permit this wee joke - if not please delete on my behalf)

Well, actually, maybe not. We all know that ROG has long remained a favourite of DK, and we were all surprised when Jackson was chosen as outhalf for Saturday, what we didn't know is that Saturday was actually DKs birthday. Earlier in the week, Mrs Kidney had asked Deccie what he wanted for his birthday. A sly smile crossed his face, and he whispered something in her ear. "That shouldn't be a problem", she innocently replied.

Lo and behold the team list came out, and Declan got a shock to see the Ulster fly-half was starting in place of ROG. "What the hell is the meaning of this", Kidney asked his media liaison officer? "Well, Mrs Kidney intervened on your behalf, saying it was your birthday, and this was your birthday wish". Deccie raced home and confronted his wife. "Well that was what you wanted for your birthday, wasn't it?", she said. "No it wasn't", and he whispered again in her ear. "Oh, I'm really sorry, I thought you said PJ"...

Ha ha brilliant!

.ak

Swiwi wrote: »

"Oh, I'm really sorry, I thought you said PJ"...

... Don't quit the dayjob Swiwi!

totallegend

thebaz wrote: »

perhaps he is at club level , but Court scrummaging isn't good eneogh for international rugby , found out once too often

When was the last time he was found out?

jm08

Hype710 wrote: »

1 line out take, 3 tackles (bringing his total to about 10 for the championship) and 8 carries for 4 metres with one penalty given away - which parts of the game was he outstanding?

Average no. tackles for the team. Team total tackles made was 42 (4 missed). Healip & O'Brien made 2 (5 total) more each.

You don't need to make tackles if you have the ball.

Edit: 2 Lineout takes according to ESPN. And Heaslip & O'Brien gave away 2 penalties each.

little173

I dont think that realistcially Jackson can be dropped after just one match.Also bare in mind that Kidney had failed to identify him and bring into his previous squads as a back up fly half and to basically parachute him straight in was always going to be a big ask. I think the goal kicking thing is a red herring, we lost because of a total lack of composure and calm decision making under pressure. But more than that, our set piece failed drastically when we needed it most.

I thought much of our play in that first half was excellent, the breaks by Marshall, SOB once again carried superbly and Heaslip carried well also.

I would say that Sexton will be back for France with Jackson on the bench and Fitz will probably get a chance on the wing. In the pack, I would be very surprised if Killcoyne is given a start against Mas who did a job against the Eng scrum. Court has performed very well on a number of occasions for Ulster and was surprised that he came unstuck I would give him another go. Sometimes its just the timing of the hit that can be the difference.

I would like to see Henderson start in the 2nd row - I think he can have a similar effect as launchbury as a 6/lock providing better carrying options especially with the loss of Healy.

jamiedav2011

jm08 wrote: »

Average no. tackles for the team. Team total tackles made was 42 (4 missed). Healip & O'Brien made 2 (5 total) more each.

You don't need to make tackles if you have the ball.

Edit: 2 Lineout takes according to ESPN. And Heaslip & O'Brien gave away 2 penalties each.

So he was outstandingly average then is what you're saying?

opinionatedfan

1. Court
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Touhy
6. Henderson
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Madigan
11. Fitzgerald
12. Marshall
13. BOD
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney
16. Cronin
17. Kilcoyne
18. Fitzpatrick
19. DOC
20. POM
21. Marshall
22. Jackson
23. Earls

BoardsMember

I still have my doubts about Murray.

He had a good game against Wales, probably his best in green, I'll readily admit that. He's great defensively - he's a big strong fella, full of honesty of effort.

I just feel that we'll never make the most of possession or our ball carrying forwards with him there - with him at 9 our forwards nearly always take the ball standing still, behind the gainline, then start running. Every time Reddan comes up the difference in the tempo is very dramatic. There are trade offs obviously, but I just believe the team plays better with Reddan. That's forgetting the obvious fact that Sexton & Reddan play week in/week out.

We also wont get the most out of our backline stocking with Murray. I dont believe he's as good a decision maker as Reddan. He's certainly not as quick a passer, or as quick to get the ball away. Leinster literally purr when Reddan is on and we have go-forward ball. If we play running rugby with talented passing out halves, surely we have to look at getting the ball to them as quickly as possible. The Murray/Reddan debate seems to have cooled since Murray has stopped playing absolutely awfully, but he's far from a brilliant SH.

I think another coach coming in would definitely have a look at Reddan as number one, or at least use them according to what type of game we are trying to play/what opposition we're up against. Like Schmidt does with Reddan/Boss in Leinster.

Tox56

little173 wrote: »

I thought much of our play in that first half was excellent, the breaks by Marshall, SOB once again carried superbly and Heaslip carried well also.

No coincidence that we lose a huge carrier in Healy, and Heaslip's carrying suddenly becomes more prominent. ESPN stats can be dodgy, but look at the contrast in their stats on what Heaslip did with the ball when in possession between the Wales game:

Kick/Pass/Run:

0/6/6

and the Scotland game:

0/0/11

He's getting the ball just as frequently, but doing different things with it, and backs up the theory that he hasn't just lost the ability to carry, but it has been a conscious decision to change his role in the team. In Healy/Ferris/SOB and even now Ryan we've had an abundance of carriers, and I've been very impressed with how Heaslip has adapted his game following their emergence... even if not everybody is convinced!

Quint2010

OK small bit of good news-Sexton is expected to be back running this week. That's gives him at least a week of pitch time before France. Straight back in if declared fit with PJ on the bench. Bring McFadden in to the replacements too to cover if Sexton has to go off. Earls will hang on to the 11 spot knowing Kidney.

CatFromHue

That is good news but the hamstring is a right bastard so even if he gets back running this week it'll still be a big ask for him to play against France.

I'd hope if Sexton isn't > 90% that he sits it out.

I also hope that Kidney would grow a pair and start Jackson regardless of Sexton's fitness.

The 6N is over. We have two matches left to make some use of.

We need to see more gametime for

Gilroy
Marshall
Henderson
Jackson
Madigan
Fitzgerald
Toner

I'd like to see Keatley get some time against Italy if possible too.

Kilcoyne is going to have to have a baptism of fire against the French scrum, we were poor in the scrum at the weekend, both Court and Kilcoyne struggled enough.

Best is going to have to boss the lineout, he's too good at the game to let any sort of inaccuracies get to him. Lets simplify it, and get Toner onto the pitch with 15/20 mins left against both France and Italy to give him some safe hands 22 feet high to hit.

Jackson, lad, ignore the kicking. You're actually really ****ing good at it, but it's not happening right now. Don't worry about it, there's a few other lads that took a while to get into the swing of things.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44087000/jpg/_44087410_ronan_ogara_416.jpg
http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/JonathanSexton_Ireland_generalview.jpg

Just keep opening up the gaps for Luke and get comfortable in that Green Shirt.

ScissorPaperRock

Deleted User wrote: »

Jackson, lad, ignore the kicking. You're actually really ****ing good at it, but it's not happening right now. Don't worry about it, there's a few other lads that took a while to get into the swing of things.

Just keep opening up the gaps for Luke and get comfortable in that Green Shirt.

+1 to this


The lad's got a bright future ahead of him.

bamboozle

at this point i think its only fair that our best ball carrier is played in his best position at 6, SOB is wasted as a 7 and also wasted as a ball carrier off first phase possession.

we needs players who can play heads up rugby, Fitzgerald and McFadden must be knocking on the door.

I'd start Henderson in 2nd row for last 2 games of the season, i'd bring touhy back into squad ahead of DOC and Toner.

I'd also bring in boss at 9, he's the one scrum half capable of probing and finding chinks to put his carriers through.

If Healy is still injured we need Kilcoyne to start if only to act as another ball carrier.

Howjoe1

Tony Ward

Swiwi

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Tony Ward

I know ROG is getting on a bit, but this really would be taking the mickey.