Season 3 Episode 11 - "I ain't Judas" [** Spoilers **]

gungun

OrgasmicBaz wrote: »

looking at next weeks sneak peek that black guy that was pointing a gun at Rick & co from the rooftop could well be Morgan & Duane...

Not to be a dick wanting loads of spoiler tags but can you put them on any talk of the previews? Thanks

OrgasmicBaz

gungun wrote: »

Not to be a dick wanting loads of spoiler tags but can you put them on any talk of the previews? Thanks

Sorry about that - post edited

giggii

I like Merle. As a previous poster said, every group needs some sort of antagonist. While Merle has done a lot of s**t and the group has every right to be more than a little wary of him, to say he is unredeemable is a bit much. Merle knows what side his bread is buttered on, he stuck with the Governor long enough and was loyal to him, getting food, security and safety in return. When that partnership went bad he needed to find a new group to find a place in.

I think he was shocked at how much Daryl had grown, and the tables have turned, Daryl has found his place as a well respected member of a nicely established group, and he needs to fit in in order to survive. He's cut his ties with Woodbury and needs to put a lot of his issues with Rick &co in order to fit in with the prison gang. For the sake of his brother, I can't see Merle doing anything to jeopardise his place in the group. Plus he's one of the more interesting characters, I know I'd much rather some Merle screentime than Bland Beth and her random sing-songs (that was weirdly out of place...).

I can also see why they're letting him stay in the prison; he's highly trained, has his own vendetta against the Governor and is incredibly loyal to his brother. If they want Daryl (and at this point they have four adept shooters, a baby, two relatively untrained chicks and hop-along Hershall, they need all the help they can get...) Merle is part of the package. At this point it isn't a matter of everyone being happy and smiley and getting along, it's a matter of survival, and as much of a risk it is to let Merle in, they do need him...

martomcg

gungun wrote: »

Not to be a dick wanting loads of spoiler tags but can you put them on any talk of the previews? Thanks

Not the best idea quoting his spoiler!

Now your post contains the spoiler and the original post has spoiler tags!!!

wonderfullife

Of course they need Daryll and Merle too.

Let's take a run-down of the troops minus those 2:

Rick - gone a bit loopy recently
Carl - growing up but still a kid. Useless in any hand-to-hand combat.
Glenn - Increasingly reckless since the Maggie episode.
Beth - Will be left holding the baby.
Herschel - semi-cripple. old. wise like a miniature buddha yet old.
Carol - braver and stronger than the Carol of old but quite a slight build.
Michonne - big asset, useful with sword and ballsy. If we could now add a personality we'd have a great character.


Add that all up and you have 3 men - of which 1 is borderline insane, one is a pensioner , the last has some bullsh1t issues - you have 2 women and 2 teenagers.

Yes they most def need the Dixon boys to stand any chance and probably the tank that is Tyrese.

Also kudos to the man with the Sawyer/Merle comparison. Bottom line Merle is/was just a redneck but smart enough to know The Guv would gut him like a pig if he stepped out of line. That's what they need right now - brawn and street smarts. Daryll and Merle provide that in spades.

Junco Partner

OrgasmicBaz wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if Morgan & Duane from the very 1st episode will be re-introduced at all,

PS Spoiler :

looking at next weeks sneak peek that black guy that was pointing a gun at Rick & co from the rooftop could well be Morgan & Duane...

Morgans listed in the cast for next weeks episode on ImDB.

Nervous Wreck

Junco Partner wrote: »

Spoiler

Well there's some info I defo didn't want to know in advance.

Junco Partner

Sorry dude.

Grimebox

username123 wrote: »

They need Daryl. Daryl is going to be made responsible for Merle. If Merle screws up - Daryl will take the blame for bringing him in.

I dont understand the vitriol - maybe dont watch the show if the best comment you can make is "its fcuking retarded"?

Its totally obvious to me why they are letting Merle in right now.

I've read the comics and played the games. Both are fantastic and I'm a fan of zombie related stuff anyway so I'd be stupid not to watch a program with such high production value as this.

My vitriol comment was a knee jerk reaction. I said in the thread for the last episode that I really, really hoped they wouldn't take Merle in for reasons I already outlined. They did just that, I got mad. This program seems to do that a lot to me. It has so much potential but floats around an above average B-movie. I need to just accept it and stop bothering you lot

Nervous Wreck

Grimebox wrote: »

I've read the comics and played the games. Both are fantastic and I'm a fan of zombie related stuff anyway so I'd be stupid not to watch a program with such high production value as this.

My vitriol comment was a knee jerk reaction. I said in the thread for the last episode that I really, really hoped they wouldn't take Merle in for reasons I already outlined. They did just that, I got mad. This program seems to do that a lot to me. It has so much potential but floats around an above average B-movie. I need to just accept it and stop bothering you lot

Agreed. It feels like the writers have a storyline that they know they're sticking to for an entire season and they're just trying to fill it up. This season would have been unreal if it were 10 episodes long. As it stands, they set up the prison, Woodbury and the friction between the two but they did it so quickly that they're now struggling to put off the final confrontation so that it takes place during the season finale. If they'd been smart, they would have laid out the story arcs likes this:

Episodes 1-3: Establish the prison and its dangers (getting in, fortifying etc) and Michonne.
Episodes 3-5: Finding the inmates (introducing them at the end of ep 3, thinning out the jerks in ep4 and integrating the good ones in ep5).
Episodes 6-7: Introducing Tyreese & co.
Episode 8: Finding Woodbury, coming across The Gov, mid-season finale kidnapping cliff-hanger.


Instead, they jammed all of that in to the first 5 or 6 episodes and, as such, were left with an under-developed (and widely hated) Michonne, an under-developed Tyreese, and now a huge excess of time on the tail-end of the season where we're gonna see, what, 6 episodes of the Prison group fighting over how to prepare for an attack from the Woodbury group. It'll all spiral into boredom until the season finale which will be epic because it's the only episode of the second half of the season that they'll have actually planned for.

Ruski

Is it just me or is Andrea this show's Skyler White?

ricero

Ruski wrote: »

Is it just me or is Andrea this show's Skyler White?

Being honest I started to feel sorry for skylar white by the season 5 mid season break which I never thought I would, so I still have some hope that twd writers can turn andrea around by this series end

cjmcork

ricero wrote: »

Being honest I started to feel sorry for skylar white by the season 5 mid season break which I never thought I would, so I still have some hope that twd writers can turn andrea around by this series end

would love to see an aul crossover ep.......jesse randomly walks into woodbury and goes 'yo b1tch, gotta cook'!

username123

Grimebox wrote: »

I need to just accept it and stop bothering you lot

I think what people accept in books and what people accept on tv/film are two different things. I probably wouldnt accept Merle back in the group if I was reading Merle - because upon description he is, well horrible really!! But the actor brings charm to the character. He is probably one of their better actors, he looks the part, he acts the part, and he makes us love to hate him. Sometimes when someone works on screen its better to keep them in than kick them out - even if it doesnt make that much sense to a written storyline.

Merle is the perfect thug in this world. No conscience, no qualms, tough, brave, and smart. Its more believable someone in his shoes would still be surviving than many of the other characters.

Dandelion6

El Guapo! wrote: »

Also......when did we find out that the Governors name is Philip? Did I totally miss that in another episode?

Yes, it was some time earlier in the season. Andrea asked him a couple times what his first name was, first he said he never told anyone, then he came out with "Philip".

Grimebox

username123 wrote: »

I think what people accept in books and what people accept on tv/film are two different things. I probably wouldnt accept Merle back in the group if I was reading Merle - because upon description he is, well horrible really!! But the actor brings charm to the character. He is probably one of their better actors, he looks the part, he acts the part, and he makes us love to hate him. Sometimes when someone works on screen its better to keep them in than kick them out - even if it doesnt make that much sense to a written storyline.

Merle is the perfect thug in this world. No conscience, no qualms, tough, brave, and smart. Its more believable someone in his shoes would still be surviving than many of the other characters.

So if an actor/character combo is good, write him into the show even it hurts the overall storyline? I call that poor writing regardless. At least someone is agreeing that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think he's a fantastic character. I would hate to see him go. He is truly at home in this lawless world. He is pretty similar to Shane who is my favourite character by miles.

Syferus

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I like Milton, I feel that he could be completely unhinged. His devotion to Guv is odd, bit of love going on?

Hr's probably the most sane person in the show. Why would he do anything to piss off the homicidal maniac that runs his camp?

Milton's just about the only character in the show who is building towards the future and not the next five minutes.

wonderfullife

Grimebox wrote: »

So if an actor/character combo is good, write him into the show even it hurts the overall storyline? I call that poor writing regardless. At least someone is agreeing that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think he's a fantastic character. I would hate to see him go. He is truly at home in this lawless world. He is pretty similar to Shane who is my favourite character by miles.

Makes plenty of sense. They need Daryll. Merle comes with Daryll.

What would not make sense and i'll be horrified if it happens is that Merle is in cahoots with the Guv and is a "plant". As there is no way on earth the Guv could know if Merle would be accepted in the prison. If that "twist" happens i'll be raging.

As it stands, things make sense. Merle bashed Glenn up. So what. Glenn left him for dead in Atalanta tied to a roof. Merle tried to kill Michonne. So what. She's not even accepted in the group herself yet.

As things stand all Merle has done is bash Glenn up a little. Now isn't the time to hold grudges either which way, they need the Dixons and frankly any other course of action would be nonsensical to their own survival chances against the Guv.

Martyn1989

wonderfullife wrote: »

Makes plenty of sense. They need Daryll. Merle comes with Daryll.

What would not make sense and i'll be horrified if it happens is that Merle is in cahoots with the Guv and is a "plant". As there is no way on earth the Guv could know if Merle would be accepted in the prison. If that "twist" happens i'll be raging.

As it stands, things make sense. Merle bashed Glenn up. So what. Glenn left him for dead in Atalanta tied to a roof. Merle tried to kill Michonne. So what. She's not even accepted in the group herself yet.

As things stand all Merle has done is bash Glenn up a little. Now isn't the time to hold grudges either which way, they need the Dixons and frankly any other course of action would be nonsensical to their own survival chances against the Guv.

He raped Maggie, she said she want along with it because she knew she didn't have a choice

Jason Todd

Martyn1989 wrote: »

He raped Maggie, she said she want along with it because she knew she didn't have a choice

Are you watching a different show? Maggie was never raped, the Governor made it seem like he would rape her, but didn't. Nothing to do with Merle.

Grimebox

wonderfullife wrote: »

Makes plenty of sense. They need Daryll. Merle comes with Daryll.

What would not make sense and i'll be horrified if it happens is that Merle is in cahoots with the Guv and is a "plant". As there is no way on earth the Guv could know if Merle would be accepted in the prison. If that "twist" happens i'll be raging.

As it stands, things make sense. Merle bashed Glenn up. So what. Glenn left him for dead in Atalanta tied to a roof. Merle tried to kill Michonne. So what. She's not even accepted in the group herself yet.

As things stand all Merle has done is bash Glenn up a little. Now isn't the time to hold grudges either which way, they need the Dixons and frankly any other course of action would be nonsensical to their own survival chances against the Guv.

You are massively downplaying what Merle did to them. Glenn got bashed up a little? Merle left a walker to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair. He could have slit his throat if he wanted to kill him but choose almost the worst death imaginable. So what...

You're right though, the whole cahoots thing wouldn't make sense either. I am of the opinion that the writers are making a balls of this. We should put this argument to rest, lets just agree that I'm wrong and your all blind fanboys :pac:

username123

Grimebox wrote: »

You are massively downplaying what Merle did to them. Glenn got bashed up a little? Merle left a walker to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair. He could have slit his throat if he wanted to kill him but choose almost the worst death imaginable. So what...

eh, are you forgetting that Glenn was part of a group who left Merle handcuffed to a roof with walkers coming for him, causing him to saw off his own hand and make an escape bleeding and in pain?

Why would Merle care about him or Maggie?

Bottom line - they need Daryl. Merle comes with Daryl. This is the zombie apocalypse, normal rules dont apply. I cant see anywhere that its hurting the overall storyline? I think Merle enriches the storyline.

Jason Todd

username123 wrote: »

eh, are you forgetting that Glenn was part of a group who left Merle handcuffed to a roof with walkers coming for him, causing him to saw off his own hand and make an escape bleeding and in pain?

Why would Merle care about him or Maggie?

Bottom line - they need Daryl. Merle comes with Daryl. This is the zombie apocalypse, normal rules dont apply. I cant see anywhere that its hurting the overall storyline? I think Merle enriches the storyline.

At the very least he is creating that interesting inner conflict that has been missing since Shane is gone.

Wanderer2010

I dont find the Governor in any way sinister or evil, really bad casting in my view- he just looks like a really sulky physics lecturer, no malice or presence from him at all. Its hard to believe he can command a whole town and have minions doing all the hard work, I cant take him seriously.

As for Meryl, I hope they kill him off as he really has no attributes as either a character or a human being- do people forget he killed that innocent kid who was sent out as part of the team to kill Michonne, he did nothing wrong and was shot at point blank range by Meryl, its actions like that that make you hate him and want him gone, its different if he had to kill to survive but he does it for fun. I cant see his character surviving this series, hopefully he will be a casualty.

Syferus

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I dont find the Governor in any way sinister or evil, really bad casting in my view- he just looks like a really sulky physics lecturer, no malice or presence from him at all. Its hard to believe he can command a whole town and have minions doing all the hard work, I cant take him seriously.

As for Meryl, I hope they kill him off as he really has no attributes as either a character or a human being- do people forget he killed that innocent kid who was sent out as part of the team to kill Michonne, he did nothing wrong and was shot at point blank range by Meryl, its actions like that that make you hate him and want him gone, its different if he had to kill to survive but he does it for fun. I cant see his character surviving this series, hopefully he will be a casualty.

Are you kidding? David Morrissey is been the best thing about what is the best run the show has ever had. Wonderful performance and perfect for the role.

Sofiztikated

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I dont find the Governor in any way sinister or evil, really bad casting in my view- he just looks like a really sulky physics lecturer, no malice or presence from him at all. Its hard to believe he can command a whole town and have minions doing all the hard work, I cant take him seriously.

As for Meryl, I hope they kill him off as he really has no attributes as either a character or a human being- do people forget he killed that innocent kid who was sent out as part of the team to kill Michonne, he did nothing wrong and was shot at point blank range by Meryl, its actions like that that make you hate him and want him gone, its different if he had to kill to survive but he does it for fun. I cant see his character surviving this series, hopefully he will be a casualty.

The Governor was creepy at the start, 1 minute all nice as pie, then being a complete bastard. But they've tried to make him human. Make people feel sorry for him.

And Merle is a dick. Complete and utter. Should stick with that method, but filling in the "Oh, Daddy kicked bolix out of him, that explains everything" ****e annoys me. Why can't be a sick because that's who he is, a dick. But I'd rather Merle pop in occasionally, once or twice a season, be a dick, and go, that try and flesh him out all the time, softening him.

Wanderer2010

Syferus wrote: »

Are you kidding? David Morrissey is been the best thing about what is the best run the show has ever had. Wonderful performance and perfect for the role.

I dont see it. His weedy little licka*se sidekick with the glasses doesnt do anything for his image either, that guy is afraid of his own shadow. Its a poorly casted role as Morrissey just doesnt ooze charismatic evil as he should, plus having his daughter still alive and these moments of regret and sorrow when he reflects on his family just make him look soft. Shane had evil in him and you could see and believe, this guy just has no presence at all, I hope he comes off the worst in the inevitable war between Woodbury and the Prison..

Syferus

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I dont see it. His weedy little licka*se sidekick with the glasses doesnt do anything for his image either, that guy is afraid of his own shadow. Its a poorly casted role as Morrissey just doesnt ooze charismatic evil as he should, plus having his daughter still alive and these moments of regret and sorrow when he reflects on his family just make him look soft. Shane had evil in him and you could see and believe, this guy just has no presence at all, I hope he comes off the worst in the inevitable war between Woodbury and the Prison..

Sounds very much like you want boldly painted characters when it's been obvious since the outset this is a world of grays.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

And Merle is a dick. Complete and utter. Should stick with that method, but filling in the "Oh, Daddy kicked bolix out of him, that explains everything" ****e annoys me. Why can't be a sick because that's who he is, a dick. But I'd rather Merle pop in occasionally, once or twice a season, be a dick, and go, that try and flesh him out all the time, softening him.

That would be incredibly rote show-running and would become dog-eared very quickly. I really appreciated that they left Merle to sit for a year - his appearance in Daryl's fever dreams aside -because very few shows have that much self-control with a popular character.

Just because they mentioned his father beat him it doesn't mean they're using it as the sole reason why the way he is. I'd be far more put off if they left him as a characture than by trying to delve a little deeper.

Grimebox

username123 wrote: »

eh, are you forgetting that Glenn was part of a group who left Merle handcuffed to a roof with walkers coming for him, causing him to saw off his own hand and make an escape bleeding and in pain?

Not sure why you would bring that up. That's a strong reason why they should not be getting along. They all left Merle for dead. His abuse of Glenn points to that he still hasn't forgiven them for it. Who's to say he won't shoot them in the back the next chance he gets?

Why would Merle care about him or Maggie?

I don't know what you are getting at here.

Bottom line - they need Daryl. Merle comes with Daryl. This is the zombie apocalypse, normal rules dont apply. I cant see anywhere that its hurting the overall storyline? I think Merle enriches the storyline.

Saying the normal rules don't apply is such a cop out. So I have to give this show's character interactions special treatment, ignoring any flaws? You're almost conceding the argument saying something like that.

Merle absolutely enriches the show. I think he's great. He's unpredictable, violent and smart. But for all the reasons I already pointed out, his arc currently doesn't make sense. That does hurt the overall storyline.

Hopefully this will get resolved in the next episode or two. Something like Glenn and Merle duking it out with Rick/Daryl/Maggie breaking it up. I just feel like it hasn't been addressed properly yet.

username123

^^ok, you dont like the storyline, I do.

You think the show is retarded, I dont.

Enjoy, not much debate to be had when two people see things so differently. Maybe youll find some other show that meets your expectations.

giggii

I think the inclusion of Merle in the prison was a great idea. Every group needs a little bit of antagonism in it and Merle fills the role perfectly. Plus, everyone needs a character they love to hate, they're in so many series and definitely become the more memorable characters (Like of the characters that have been killed off already, Shane, Lori and Dale are the most commonly discussed, whereas who can honestly remember the name of the woman they left in the CDC, and even Andrea forgot to ask about T-Dog)

If the purpose of the writers to introduce Merle into the prison gang was to strike up a bit of controversy and shake things up a bit, then, considering that about 75% of this thread has been about people's opinions on Merle, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job!

TheUsual

Beggars can't be choosers.
Merle is a born killer that they need on their side, at the moment anyway.

If they ever found a place to settle down and raise families and get back to normal, then Merle is the worst person you ever want around.

expectationlost

TheNinthGate wrote: »

That would drive too big a wedge between Hershel and Rick, I can't see Rick being interested in her.

Her and Carl will probably get it on.

she was on talking dead, still convinced she was meant to die last week


she was asked what about in 4 years?

storker

Grimebox wrote: »

They all left Merle for dead. His abuse of Glenn points to that he still hasn't forgiven them for it. Who's to say he won't shoot them in the back the next chance he gets?

I suppose it's just possible that he knows deep down that the reason he found himself stuck on the roof in handcuffs was (a) that the confrontation was of his own making and (b) T-Dog's butterfingers with the key, and not because the group made a decision to trap him and leave him there. T-Dog is dead now anyway, and as for abandoning him there, it's exactly the call Merle himself would have made had someone else been handcuffed to the pipe.