Women and money

meeeeh

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

According to the definition of financial independence, i.e. being able to support yourself.

Well that woud make the whole generations of irish women far from independent.

Screw the I'm out comment, this is way too much fun.

LittleBook

Even apart from the broken tooth/rainy day type contingency plan, I would much rather save for something in advance and wait, than buy it on credit. Maybe this goes back to the generational differences as well.

Credit became so easily available in the last 30 years (maybe less so nowadays) that it seems to have replaced savings as a method of buying things.

I also have a couple of friends (male and female) who have savings AND credit card debt. They're earning 2% on the former and paying 15% on the latter, but they still like to have a "rainy day fund". I know it's psychological for them but it makes no sense to me.

As regards being able to save or not ... what worked for me is to get the money out of the current account and into the savings account at the start of the month, rather than seeing what I had left over at the end.

Expenses (predictable or not) will expand to eat available cash but if the available cash is a little lower to start with, you'd be surprised at how it can be stretched out.

And I can't recommend the spreadsheet approach highly enough. Everyone has access to online banking, no? If not, this will still work.

Start from the last pay cheque or the 1st of January this year and copy/paste the info from your bank account into the spreadsheet and update a few times a month, keeping a running total. Have a second page in the file for a savings account.

Date|Item|Debit|Credit|Balance
1-Jan|Salary||1000|1000
2-Jan|Savings|50||950
3-Jan|Rent|400||550
5-Jan|Cash Withdrawal|50||500
8-Jan|Dunnes Shopping|50||450
10-Jan|Mobile Phone Top-Up|10||440
12-Jan|Cinema|15||425
15-Jan|Electricity|38||387
15-Jan|Gas|22||365
17-Jan|Dunnes Shopping|50||315
20-Jan|UPC|30||285
21-Jan|Penneys|58||227
21-Jan|Loan repayment|75||152
25-Jan|Dunnes Shopping|50||102
28-Jan|Cash Withdrawal|50||52
31-Jan|Cash Withdrawal|50||2

You will soon see the patterns emerging and will then be able to input a few lines in advance (budget) on the first of each month.

Date|Item|Debit|Credit|Balance
1st|Salary||1000|1000
2nd|Savings|50||950
3rd|Rent|400||550
10th|Mobile Phone Top-Up|10||540
15th|Electricity (bi-monthly)|38||502
15th|Gas (bi-monthly)|22||480
20th|UPC|30||450
21st|Loan repayment|75||375

Which will give you an idea in advance of how you'll be at the end of that month. Keep plugging in the actuals.

The beauty of the second page in the file for your savings is that there's nothing like seeing the balance in that sheet go up

I hardly ever buy on credit unless I absolutely have to, just because it doesn't seem much fun to pay for stuff after the fact. Paying off a holiday months after you've come home from it sounds awful! Way nicer to save up first, look forward to it and then go. I know people who buy gadgets and pay them off monthly. Don't get that at all. I'd rather just not have it than have all manner of loans and repayments hanging over me.

I put things like the heating oil, music and language fees etc on my cards. Put my holiday recently on it for the hotel and car, used cash otherwise mostly. It's okay though since it usually gets cleared either in one month or two. Load of fees hit right after the holiday which I expected so it's taken a bit longer. Day to day things are usually on the debit. I don't like being in debt and I never forget it for a minute.

I have the cards and my nest egg of savings, but while there is a difference in the rates, I clear the former quickly enough not to ever pay more than a few euro in interest (except for this year for the first time) and it's also psychological as LB said.

Savings and bills go out on payday so whatever I have left I have left, and if I need to dig into the savings I can but never below a certain level and even then it kills me.

ash23

The thing I wonder is why does it bother people?
If I want to spend all my spare cash on penny sweets, then what's it to anyone else? As long as they aren't living with me and my finances aren't affecting them, then what does it matter?

I'll try to bring my daughter up to be independent but if she gets married at 20 to a billionaire and packs in her job, then what do I care as long as she is happy?

I could probably cut more corners and save some money but if I did, I'd never get to do anything other than go to work. I'd be miserable. So I spend the little I have on things that to someone frugal, might seem frivolous. Does my kid need swimming lessons? No. Do I need a night out? No. Could I put that money in a savings account. Yes.

But life is for living too and it's important to enjoy yourself.

April O Neill

ash23 wrote: »

The thing I wonder is why does it bother people?
If I want to spend all my spare cash on penny sweets, then what's it to anyone else? As long as they aren't living with me and my finances aren't affecting them, then what does it matter?

It doesn't bother me, except when people moan about being broke when they flitter away money. Or lean on me for a loan, when they earn way more than me. Grrr!!!!

Ash23, I wouldn't consider swimming lessons for your kid a waste!

ash23

April O Neill wrote: »

Ash23, I wouldn't consider swimming lessons for your kid a waste!

I don't either. But some might. It's almost 100euro for 8 weeks. Thats 4 sessions a year or 400e I could have in my savings account.

My point is that I have no right to judge someone for what they are spending their money on. If they work and aren't looking to me for money they can do what they want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Everyone prioritises differently.

I don't think that people who don't concern themselves with saving or financial independence are pampered or spoiled. They just live differently to those who save and are careful with money. Not hurting anyone really.

LittleBook

bluewolf wrote: »

I have the cards and my nest egg of savings, but while there is a difference in the rates, I clear the former quickly enough not to ever pay more than a few euro in interest (except for this year for the first time) and it's also psychological as LB said.

I have a third page in my Excel file for my credit card and do exactly as you do

I don't think there's any harm in using a credit card for cashflow management. The problem starts when people begin using them for funding/income supplements, particularly at a young age.

Call Me Jimmy

From what I thought would be a car crash thread it has been quite an interesting read. I think at 24 and in my final year in college I'm starting to think quite seriously about this stuff.

I have relied on my parents, but I know that if it weren't for long term illness I would have relied much less growing up (especially through college). I always wanted a part-time job through college but my illness is such that commitment to anything is hard. I had a 6 month work placement last year and it was the biggest struggle of my life, damaged my health further and that was nothing to do with the actual work.

I know that if I am cured I will be completely self-reliant and even if I am not I will have to figure out something. I am living at home with my parents again and just seeing my dad come in from work and having to be extremely disciplined just to provide I think I appreciate what he does more than anyone in the family. My mam too, as without her I know my dad would not be able to function.

The one good thing I have standing to me financially is an aversion to loans/credit. Obviously there are some things that will require loans but as long as I can get away with it I will not even get a credit card. If I need to buy online I can use the debit card. But my illness has thankfully given me a very grounded view on what is important and I just don't make purchases of things I don't need. I'm studying IT and everyone in my previous jobs would for example always have the latest ipads/ phones etc. I'm not judging that at all but for me an update to phone means nothing to me. Similarly with computers, tv's etc.

I enjoy reading and did go through a spell when I was working of buying books in the shop but the library is just too good a resource to justify that.

So, good thread. It might help a lot of people, even to get a perspective on what it's like for other people and maybe some tips (ala spreadsheets etc).

LittleBook

April O Neill wrote: »

It doesn't bother me, except when people moan about being broke when they flitter away money.

I'll be honest with you April, I used to trot out "god, I'm so broke this month" to my friends, as did everyone else ... until one of our small group became unemployed. We had no idea what "broke" was until we watched her struggle to manage on a drastically reduced income. It's doable, and she does it, does it well.

But there's no more whingeing about being broke, I realise now that (thankfully) I didn't know the meaning of the word

meeeeh

ash23 wrote: »

The thing I wonder is why does it bother people?
If I want to spend all my spare cash on penny sweets, then what's it to anyone else? As long as they aren't living with me and my finances aren't affecting them, then what does it matter?

I'll try to bring my daughter up to be independent but if she gets married at 20 to a billionaire and packs in her job, then what do I care as long as she is happy?

I could probably cut more corners and save some money but if I did, I'd never get to do anything other than go to work. I'd be miserable. So I spend the little I have on things that to someone frugal, might seem frivolous. Does my kid need swimming lessons? No. Do I need a night out? No. Could I put that money in a savings account. Yes.

But life is for living too and it's important to enjoy yourself.

That would be my attitude and besides car loan and a mortgage I never borrowed money from anybody. I'm not particularly independent. I lived with my parents till 25 and after that shared the cost with bf. I had part time jobs since 18 and was unemployed for whole three weeks of my life when I moved to Ireland. Still I always manage to squander all my money and have feck all in savings.

I do dislike it though when people have no restraint spending on non essential stuff and expect to be bailed out when things mount up. I'm not talking about an odd loan every so often but the irresponsible attitude which can significantly affect people around you. Btw it's exactly the same for men or women.

mrsdewinter

Fascinating thread. I have a pretty fluid relationship with money. For the last couple of years, I've been a saver but I know that at the height of the boom, I was pretty silly about money.
Right now, my attitude is that I hate the waste of vapid consumption. So rather than fritter money away on lattes, I'd prefer to save my money and then spend a portion on experiences - holidays, meals out - with friends and family.

Mollyd90

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Fascinating thread. So rather than fritter money away on lattes, I'd prefer to save my money and then spend a portion on experiences - holidays, meals out - with friends and family.

+1

ash23

ash23 wrote: »

I don't either. But some might. It's almost 100euro for 8 weeks. Thats 4 sessions a year or 400e I could have in my savings account.

My point is that I have no right to judge someone for what they are spending their money on. If they work and aren't looking to me for money they can do what they want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Everyone prioritises differently.

I don't think that people who don't concern themselves with saving or financial independence are pampered or spoiled. They just live differently to those who save and are careful with money. Not hurting anyone really.

The problem is that a lot of people like that make it other people's problem. I've had countless friends turn to me for a loan because they can't budget and I really don't like it. I'm on a tight budget myself and I've enough to worry about as it is. If people are coming to me begging for money, or constantly whining about how broke they are, I will judge them on what they're spending it on. More often than not, they're earning more than me!

Ella

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of people like that make it other people's problem. I've had countless friends turn to me for a loan because they can't budget and I really don't like it. I'm on a tight budget myself and I've enough to worry about as it is. If people are coming to me begging for money, or constantly whining about how broke they are, I will judge them on what they're spending it on. More often than not, they're earning more than me!

And you cant tell them you dont have it because why?

ash23

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of people like that make it other people's problem. I've had countless friends turn to me for a loan because they can't budget and I really don't like it. I'm on a tight budget myself and I've enough to worry about as it is. If people are coming to me begging for money, or constantly whining about how broke they are, I will judge them on what they're spending it on. More often than not, they're earning more than me!

That's different though. Because that's making your problem someone elses. But the OP wasn't talking about that. Just talking about women in general who don't save.

And I still think let them off, it's their business. Once they're not making it yours.

Ella

Ella wrote: »

And you cant tell them you dont have it because why?

Oh, I do tell them. And more often than not, get a guilt trip.

ash23 wrote: »

That's different though. Because that's making your problem someone elses. But the OP wasn't talking about that. Just talking about women in general who don't save.

And I still think let them off, it's their business. Once they're not making it yours.

No, OP was talking about people relying on others to bail them out. I find that when someone can't manage their money and can't get to the end of the month, it ALWAYS becomes someone else's business. Whether it's Mammy or Daddy or flatmates or friends. People can't live on fresh air, so they expect others to help them out.

mariaalice

As to why it bothers me I have explained a bit at the beginning of the thread, plus I am curious how people make choices and whats the rational behind the choice.

I have a friend, while she had never asked me for a loan I had to tell her I am happy to be friends with her, but I cant talk about her financial situation with her anymore as it was upsetting me, its almost like paying her bills including her mortgage is some sort of hit and miss game she has some sort of vague idea that it will all get sorted in the future.

Legs.Eleven

I'm on about 13,000 Euro a year and some months I don't earn at all, so budgeting is absolutely essential. Lucky for me I suffer from serious guilt whenever I spend money on myself, so I manage. When I'm working, I try to keep my account above a grand at all times just in case (which it currently is). You can't call that savings (or can you?) but it makes me feel secure knowing that if something serious happens, I have it covered. I don't borrow, don't have a credit card, don't have anything of value except my laptop. My biggest indulgence is fancy Belgian beer and coffees and tbh, I'm not cutting down on either one because they make me happy. I exercise by running, buy second hand books and shopping is my idea of pure hell, so no temptation there unless I feel I need something. I've always been quite broke, so it's no skin off my nose. I can imagine it's harder to adapt if you're used to having money spare.

Hopefully in a year or two I'll be on a better salary (I'm moving country temporarily to get some savings together and to go back to university) but until then, this is how I live my life. I've no dependents and I live in a cheapish country with good weather, so it's easier to cut corners.

Personally though, the idea of saving huge amounts of money for nothing in particular seems like a mad concept to me. I can see why it might appeal to some but to me, I feel I don't need more than just my safety net, at least for now while I've no one depending on me. Life seems too short to be saving and saving just for the sake of it. The temptation to blow it on a trip round the world would be too huge....but then I perhaps that's the reason people with no dependents save? To blow it all on something like that?

beks101

In terms of saving habits, I don't use spreadsheet or excel or any sort of balance sheet. I just transfer what I can each time I get paid bi-monthly, taking account of rent and bills and groceries and any other expenses I know I'll have to deal with. Sometimes that will be $800; sometimes that will be $80, something will get moved over either way.

Saving is inherent to me, it's compulsory. I'd find it completely unsettling and terrifying to not have that nest egg as a back-up plan if the shit hits the fan, I don't think I'd sleep at night. Even when I have to dip into my savings, it makes me uncomfortable and I know my next few wages will have to cover them.

It's like some sort of internal monitoring system that I know will always keep me in check, maybe harping back to my childhood where any gifts of cash, Communion money, sports winnings etc...went straight to the bank.

I think what's key to money management is the value you place on it. That's not really influenced by the amount of money your family had growing up, it's more to do with the attitude to money you were surrounded by.

Growing up, my parents would've been considered well off, they did well for themselves, but I never, ever sensed that until I was old enough to see that others didn't necessarily have the same privileges that I had as a kid. They never threw money at us or entertained any of our childish demands for toys or clothes etc - they bought us what we needed and worked us around the house to earn our pocket money. I didn't get that fiver unless I cleaned my room every day for a week straight, I wouldn't get cinema money unless I did all my homework, set the table and swept the floor. It had a value, it had to be earned, it didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Some people grew up in an environment where it DID come from nowhere, there was no necessary work involved to obtain it and no accountability for how it was spent. Mothers, fathers, siblings, cousins, friends, boyfriends or girlfriends can all be the culprits and it's definitely not a female thing - I have a 27 year old cousin who's still being bankrolled by his Dad and has no notion of getting a job because he doesn't need to worry about money, he'll always be bailed out. I think passing that kind of irresponsible attitude to money onto a child is really damaging.

Stheno

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I'm on about 13,000 Euro a year and some months I don't earn at all, so budgeting is absolutely essential. Lucky for me I suffer from serious guilt whenever I spend money on myself, so I manage. When I'm working, I try to keep my account above a grand at all times just in case (which it currently is). You can't call that savings (or can you?) but it makes me feel secure knowing that if something serious happens, I have it covered. I don't borrow, don't have a credit card, don't have anything of value except my laptop. My biggest indulgence is fancy Belgian beer and coffees and tbh, I'm not cutting down on either one because they make me happy. I exercise by running, buy second hand books and shopping is my idea of pure hell, so no temptation there unless I feel I need something. I've always been quite broke, so it's no skin off my nose. I can imagine it's harder to adapt if you're used to having money spare.

Hopefully in a year or two I'll be on a better salary (I'm moving country temporarily to get some savings together and to go back to university) but until then, this is how I live my life. I've no dependents and I live in a cheapish country with good weather, so it's easier to cut corners.

Personally though, the idea of saving huge amounts of money for nothing in particular seems like a mad concept to me. I can see why it might appeal to some but to me, I feel I don't need more than just my safety net, at least for now while I've no one depending on me. Life seems too short to be saving and saving just for the sake of it. The temptation to blow it on a trip round the world would be too huge....but then I perhaps that's the reason people with no dependents save? To blow it all on something like that?

Because I travel an awful lot with work, I've had to learn to keep a certain amount in my account so I can pay for expenses incurred and that was a good discipline for me, so if I see my current account dropping below a certain level, I feel a sense of dread.

Also in relation to your last point, I'm older than most posters on this thread, and am saving for the following reasons:

1. Holidays, I've never done the week/two weeks in the sun, magic trip to wherever thing, and it's something I think I'd like to get into.
2. Education: I'm currently doing a Masters which I pay for each month of the academic year, so when I'm not paying that, I save what I do pay, so I can fund more education, I'd like to do an MBA too. (yeah, sucker for punishment, but in reality my masters is extremely specialised, and an MBA would be a serious differentiator if I were looking to move into more senior roles).
3. A house: I own a house with my ex, which will eventually be sold, and I'd like to be in a position when I am divorced to be able to take any proceeds from that sale, and buy a house, preferably with as small a mortgage as possible.
4. Should have been 3, a new car, I once financed a car from new, I'll never do it again, I now buy cars I can pay for outright, but I'd like a newer car, so I'm saving for that.
5. A cushion, I'm 40 this year, my OH is 50 this year and I'm 40, so we are getting more conscious that we need a financial cushion if something bad happened.

At the same time, My OH and myself have started going out less (both to save money and for other reasons and tbh, the most a night out for two of us has ever cost was €80), so my disposable income is getting better, and I'm saving more. I'm planning on quitting smoking soon, and all of that is also going into savings.

In many ways I'm very proud of the fact that I've managed so far, no I don't have a rainy day fund yet as my life circumstances haven't allowed it, but I'm getting there. I've always had an eye for a bargain, so I've managed to pick up Armani suits for less than €100 in outlet stores that have lasted me five years plus, so like fits I try to adopt a lean approach, but I do treat myself, most days I'll have a takeaway coffee, but compared to giving that up or smoking, I'll give up smoking, I'll miss it less and enjoy my coffee more as a treat.

ash23

If I'd been born ten years earlier and my life path had followed the exact same timescale, I'd be reasonably well off now.

Some of it is luck and timing.
I'd have bought a house in 1996 and sold it in 2003 for a profit. I'd have invested that in another house which,even in 2003 wouldn't have been astronomical in cost.

Instead I bought in 2006 and still can't sell it. Owe about 140k in negative equity with my ex. Can't get a mortgage because I already have one and am paying more in rent than I would in a mortgage.

Sometimes things aren't in your control and it's not lack of knowledge or splurging or being reckless. It's just life taking twists and turns that don't work in your favour.

Whispered

ash23 wrote: »

If I'd been born ten years earlier and my life path had followed the exact same timescale, I'd be reasonably well off now.

Some of it is luck and timing.
I'd have bought a house in 1996 and sold it in 2003 for a profit. I'd have invested that in another house which,even in 2003 wouldn't have been astronomical in cost.

Instead I bought in 2006 and still can't sell it. Owe about 140k in negative equity with my ex. Can't get a mortgage because I already have one and am paying more in rent than I would in a mortgage.

Sometimes things aren't in your control and it's not lack of knowledge or splurging or being reckless. It's just life taking twists and turns that don't work in your favour.

Same here, we bought in 2006 (moved in Jan 2007) and we're in negative equity. Thankfully we're still together and we like our house, but we're lucky because we're tied to it now for the foreseeable future either way.

A friend in her late 30's bought a 1bed apartment for nearly 300k in 2006, her idea was to own it for a year and sell it for a profit, buy a house and start a family. She is still in the apt She hasn't started a family, and is now saying it's too late. She took a risk, but the fallout for her is so much bigger than financial.

Whispered

Whispered wrote: »

Same here, we bought in 2006 (moved in Jan 2007) and we're in negative equity. Thankfully we're still together and we like our house, but we're lucky because we're tied to it now for the foreseeable future either way.

A friend in her late 30's bought a 1bed apartment for nearly 300k in 2006, her idea was to own it for a year and sell it for a profit, buy a house and start a family. She is still in the apt She hasn't started a family, and is now saying it's too late. She took a risk, but the fallout for her is so much bigger than financial.

I wouldn't blame not having started a family on that. There are still options.

Whispered

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

I wouldn't blame not having started a family on that. There are still options.

No I don't blame her either. I mean no matter how far into neg equity we go, we like our house and would be content to stay here indefinitely. So many people were unlucky enough to buy a place that won't suit them for the different stages of their lives.

I know that there are other options, but she's very down over it. She feels hopeless and therefore isn't even trying anymore. It's sad.

Little Acorn

Dolbert wrote: »

Here's the thing though, there's always, always something. It's very naive to think 'why save, I might never need it'. Little things crop up, and even if they don't there will be major life events, which sooner or later are made a lot easier by having something put away.

Originally Posted By Malakai Fluffy Gent
As for 'it might never happen', it ALWAYS happens. Everyone has unexpected expenses, whether it's urgent dental work after cracking a tooth or having to fly home at short notice or a really high electricity bill. This is all part of life. Working out your solid expenses (rent, food, transport) and not taking life into account is foolish, IMO. It's different if you genuinely can't afford anything but the basics, but most people just don't bother to save. That 10 euro for a scarf, 4 euro for a fancy coffee, 14 euro for a new hardback book is all money spent on stuff you wouldn't miss if you didn't have it, but adds up quickly in your 'rainy day' fund.

Thanks for the responses. Just to be clear, I'm not completely naive!

I completely understand the concept of saving for a rainy day, I just think that if somebody has a minuscule amount of cash left at the end of the week, that it would be a pretty miserable existence if they were not allowing themselves even the tiniest occasional treat such as a chocolate bar or something. I just wouldn't expect anybody to sacrifice a tiny treat a week for the sake of a rainy day fund.

I know it would be wise to and that they should probably try putting a little away whenever they have a chance, but I certainly wouldn't be tutting and thinking they were very foolish and extremely irresponsible for not putting away money every week out of their tiny little bit of cash just for the sake of building a 'rainy day' fund. (not saying there's anything wrong if ye think that it is very irresponsible, just giving my own opinion)

I know only too well that emergencies can happen, for example when my fridge and cooker had to both be replaced within the one week! I had to get a loan. But just to be clear, it was not a loan of any family or friends. It was a proper official loan which I pay back by myself every week. Didn't bother me getting a loan, it's affordable repayments.
I don't really like the idea that some people assume people who don't have savings are "princesses" or "spoilt".

I don't have a rainy day fund. I always pay my bills though. I never get help from anybody to pay my share with anything. I'm 25 now and a full time undergrad student so I never have a huge amount of money. I have worked since I was 12 years of age. Weekend work during school and full time every week during the summer months. From the age of just 12 I have always bought my own clothes and lunches, and things that were needed for school such as ingredients for my home ec class, refil pads, shoes etc., and any places I wanted to go with friends I paid for myself .
I was certainly never spoilt or suffered from "princess syndrome" at all just because I don't have emergency savings. And as both my parents died young I certainly don't be running to them getting spoilt and I never did either when they were around. I look after my own affairs.

I am just starting to save. I want to save for a masters and phd. Saving for a set definite target I understand. When I hopefully get a decent job and get paid, then I will definitely start a rainy day fund. But it will have a cap of some sort.
I don't see the point of saving indefinitely for something that's only a possibility. So yes I know things happen, but my rainy day fund will have a set limit. If something bad happens where I need more than the amount I have saved then I will get a loan or it will be worked out some way. I'm not going to spend my life worrying about "maybe" situations. I will have a certain amount put away for emergencies and that will be it.

I don't have any children or a mortgage and don't want any either. I understand though that some people might be more into saving long term if they maybe have children that may need something in the future.

As for methods of budgeting? I have made a few spreadsheets before, but 99% of the time I just use pen, paper and calculator and I have enough to cover all the bills, rent and food. It's not very technical but it works for me!

Sunshine87

If you have a steady income, i can't understand people who depend on others to pay for things, i think if you've no children and you're spending more than you earn, you need to have a talk with yourself.

I'm probably the most independant person in my group of mates - i've had a job since i was 15, put myself through college, bought a car at 19 and have never asked for a penny off my parents, all because i was good with my money and i got to learn the value of it. I worked bloody hard, and at times i felt hard done by when i seen alot of my peers getting cars/ rent/ clothes etc, paid for them, but i still had those things, i just had to work for it. And i appreciated them alot more

And after uni i felt lucky to get a fairly decent job (cos i was seriously broke in the last 6 months of uni!!), and i was able to save and spend my money on things i could never have done beforehand. But its all about being wise with your wages imo.

Rosy Posy

Sunshine87 wrote: »

if you've no children and you're spending more than you earn, you need to have a talk with yourself

IMO if you DO have children and your not managing your finances properly that's even more serious. I have a friend who has a child the same age as my eldest. Their adult teeth are just coming in and both of them are looking like they will need orthodontal work. We had a discussion around saving for braces (I am factoring this in to our long term financial plan) and she was just like, 'he'll have to do without'. Ditto college- 'if he wants to go he'll have to get a loan'. This is the same family that spends a decent wedge of their weekly wage on booze and fags. I think that financial irresponsibility is a far worse thing when kids are involved. They are called dependants for a reason, you have a responsibility to look after their welfare.

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

IMO if you DO have children and your not managing your finances properly that's even more serious. I have a friend who has a child the same age as my eldest. Their adult teeth are just coming in and both of them are looking like they will need orthodontal work. We had a discussion around saving for braces (I am factoring this in to our long term financial plan) and she was just like, 'he'll have to do without'. Ditto college- 'if he wants to go he'll have to get a loan'. This is the same family that spends a decent wedge of their weekly wage on booze and fags. I think that financial irresponsibility is a far worse thing when kids are involved. They are called dependants for a reason, you have a responsibility to look after their welfare.

That's not cool about the braces, but my parents expected me to pay for my own college. That's the norm in the UK. They had the attitude that I would be supported until 18 but not for longer. They did help me out with college costs, but I paid for the majority of it myself, with part-time jobs and loans. My dad spends loads of money on fags, but he sees his salary as his money that he earned. I see both sides of the argument.

April O Neill

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

That's not cool about the braces, but my parents expected me to pay for my own college. That's the norm in the UK.

Thing is, though, you can get students loans in the UK that you only have to pay back once graduated and when earning over a certain amount. These aren't available in Ireland. They should be though!

Electric Sheep

Dolbert wrote: »

I feel very fortunate that I've always been in a position to save. Myself and OH have always worked and have no dependants. We aren't high earners by any means but are frugal in a lot of ways. I don't understand it when people could save, but choose not to.



Here's the thing though, there's always, always something. It's very naive to think 'why save, I might never need it'. Little things crop up, and even if they don't there will be major life events, which sooner or later are made a lot easier by having something put away.

Yes, I was wondering if there are many people who DON'T have to deal with unexpected expenses. I mean, really? These things might never happen? Not in my world, unfortunately, they happen all the time.

Stheno

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

That's not cool about the braces, but my parents expected me to pay for my own college. That's the norm in the UK. They had the attitude that I would be supported until 18 but not for longer. They did help me out with college costs, but I paid for the majority of it myself, with part-time jobs and loans. My dad spends loads of money on fags, but he sees his salary as his money that he earned. I see both sides of the argument.

Me too. I was the first of both my parents families to go to college and it was my choice if I could afford it. I dropped out as I couldn't

I think there has to be a balance wiith kids in education though

Rosy Posy

April O Neill wrote: »

Thing is, though, you can get students loans in the UK that you only have to pay back once graduated and when earning over a certain amount. These aren't available in Ireland. They should be though!

They used to be available for certain courses- my OH took a student loan that only started charging interest once he qualified. He managed to pay it off quickly though (by moving home, working his ass off and not going out for six months). That was back in the Celtic tiger days though, I'm sure it's been axed now. We emigrated and there are fees here for college, plus we live rurally so the kids will have to go away to college. I would definitely expect them to work to support themselves, and for holiday/beer money but I would like to be able to pay for their college fees. I have friends over here in their 30's who have pretty much reconciled themselves to never being able to buy a house because they won't get a mortgage until they pay off student loans which have snowballed with interest in the years since they have left college. Also I find that a lot less people over here go to college because they don't want to get into debt. I think that you can never be sure of leaving your kids material wealth but if you give them a good education that's something that can't be taken from them.

fits

Has anyone else started with their spreadsheet? I think its going to be interesting to see how it works out (for me).

fits

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, I was wondering if there are many people who DON'T have to deal with unexpected expenses. I mean, really? These things might never happen? Not in my world, unfortunately, they happen all the time.

I live three flights away from home. At Christmas time I 'saved' 100 euro by booking flights with two different airlines rather than a through ticket. I had a four hour layover in between.

I was flying on the 22nd and my first flight was cancelled. Was rescheduled on one for three and a half hours later which was also late. I missed my connection and had no protection as no through ticket, and no insurance which covered miss connections. All the flights out for the next day were sold out.

Ended up having to fork out 600 euro extra to get home. In total my trip home for Christmas cost over 1000 euro as a result. That hurts I have a claim in for compensation but most I will get is 250 euro.

This stuff always happens and you just have to accept it. If its not that its a phone getting robbed or a car breaking down.

collegeme

I get what the op is saying. There are always people who just cant be financially independent. Sometimes thats down to knowing daddy is there as a backup.
Seriously though i know people in their 30s who have daddya paY phone bill, car insurance, car repayments, any repair/servicing thats needed oh and also rent and a little pocket money...i kidd you not. As a very independent person i feel these people will never learn to be independent and i see that as a weakness.

And if you look fir a lend even though you have the means to sort it yourself...youre nothing less than a "scrounger"

woodchuck

I'm sorry, but if someone is in a position to save money for a rainy day and they don't because they think they can use their family/friends as a fallback, then that's just plain selfish.

This obviously doesn't apply to people who genuinely can't save for a whole number of reasons (including but not limited to; low income, family to support, very extreme emergencies etc etc).

If you just expect your family/friends to bail you out when you need it... how is that fair!? They've had the foresight and the sense to spend a little less and live a slightly more modest lifestyle in order to have some 'rainy day' money put away. And someone else just expects that it's there for their use too when they need it!? When you're asking for a loan for a bill (or whatever else crops up), you're not actually asking for money for that said thing. You're actually asking for them to subsidise your lifestyle, albeit indirectly. If these people would live a slightly more modest lifestyle instead then they wouldn't have to ask for a loan to begin with (again, barring the people mentioned above and extreme situations).

To these people I say cop on, grow up and stop being so selfish!

Sunshine87

Rosy Posy wrote: »

IMO if you DO have children and your not managing your finances properly that's even more serious. I have a friend who has a child the same age as my eldest. Their adult teeth are just coming in and both of them are looking like they will need orthodontal work. We had a discussion around saving for braces (I am factoring this in to our long term financial plan) and she was just like, 'he'll have to do without'. Ditto college- 'if he wants to go he'll have to get a loan'. This is the same family that spends a decent wedge of their weekly wage on booze and fags. I think that financial irresponsibility is a far worse thing when kids are involved. They are called dependants for a reason, you have a responsibility to look after their welfare.

I don't mean that your entitled to spend your money on ****e when you have kids, but if you have dependants, you are obviously gonna have less disposible income, than someone who is single and is on a similar salary.

woodchuck

woodchuck wrote: »

I'm sorry, but if someone is in a position to save money for a rainy day and they don't because they think they can use their family/friends as a fallback, then that's just plain selfish.

This obviously doesn't apply to people who genuinely can't save for a whole number of reasons (including but not limited to; low income, family to support, very extreme emergencies etc etc).

If you just expect your family/friends to bail you out when you need it... how is that fair!? They've had the foresight and the sense to spend a little less and live a slightly more modest lifestyle in order to have some 'rainy day' money put away. And someone else just expects that it's there for their use too when they need it!? When you're asking for a loan for a bill (or whatever else crops up), you're not actually asking for money for that said thing. You're actually asking for them to subsidise your lifestyle, albeit indirectly. If these people would live a slightly more modest lifestyle instead then they wouldn't have to ask for a loan to begin with (again, barring the people mentioned above and extreme situations).

To these people I say cop on, grow up and stop being so selfish!

My thoughts exactly...I was shocked that people seem to think this is acceptable. I highly doubt there is anyone in the world who truly doesn't mind being asked to lend someone money because of that person's bad planning.

seenitall

Malakai Fluffy Gent wrote: »

I highly doubt there is anyone in the world who truly doesn't mind being asked to lend someone money because of that person's bad planning.

Oh there's all sorts in the world (as I keep saying ).

My mother, for example, was an abusive, domineering mother while I was growing up, and overall she has remained, er, not a most pleasant person to know at close quarters.

However, while she has abused me as if almost wanting to hinder me from normal development and advancement in life by making me feel stupid and worthless every step of the way, thus damaging my self-estem and confidence severely, the one thing she does enjoy is offering and proffering her financial assistance whenever there is a slight indication it might be needed. In other words, she is generous to a fault with her money; less than generous with her affection (if there is any, somewhere in there).

It's strange, people can be strange.

You rarely know what's in people's heads exactly, or the true nature of a dynamic between people.

So I'm sure there are other people in the world who actually do enjoy lending money, for their own private, sometimes unfathomable, reasons. For all we know, some people (daddys' princesses or whatever) may have been conditioned by their parents to rely on them financially, as that is perhaps a roundabout way the parents can feel needed or 'in control' in some way. I'm not saying that the kids shouldn't be using their heads as they grow up, because naturally when it gets to a point that you are imposing on the kindness or patience of your friends (as in the case of your friend), you are starting to do damage to your relationships and you better wake up and smell the coffee. Perhaps don't let her guilt-trip you next time? I know it can be difficult. But it's also the most straightforward way for this sort of person to learn about healthy boundaries in a friendship.

The Corinthian

If people will forgive my adding a male perspective, such women are a minority that we have to keep our eyes open for as we get older, especially once we're over thirty. Typical of such women are the following traits:

No career to speak of. Likely they have a job that 'pays the bills' but have never progressed much beyond entry level. Sometimes they'll have practically no work experience by 35, having remained in college (repeating courses or doing postgrads in something utterly useless in the Real World, but with no academic ambitions) until 30, then spending as much time unemployed as employed.

Living beyond their means. The current economy has meant that many have been forced to do this, but at least most will do their best and economize. What living beyond your means, in this context, means is where they don't economize. For example, they'll take holidays they cannot afford, and stay in hotels rather than seeking cheaper accommodation. Or choose to live somewhere where the rent is high, or have a car they can do without and cannot afford, or eat out rather than cook in.

In short, expenditure exceeds income, despite the fact that were they to economize they could live within their means.

Fiscal irresponsibility to the point of fraud. They're always in debt. Credit cards, buying on lease, overdrafts. In addition, they'll almost always have bad debts - bills they pay late or don't pay at all (leaving an apartment without paying the last few months rent is an example of this). Again, this isn't unusual in the current economy, but when combined with living beyond your means, it's a sure sign.

Parental sponging. Already discussed here in some detail and why men do keep an eye out for such women as we grow older, because as they grow older, they silently realize that they're going to have to replace the parental support and a husband.

As a result, the easiest way to get rid of them, early on, is to let it 'slip' that you're either doing badly financially or, especially, that you are in essentially a dead end job yourself - short term debt is forgivable, but poor long term earning potential tends to be a deal-breaker. They go very cold, very quickly soon after.

Entitlement. A sense that they're entitled to be given money - it's their right to get money from others. The idea that an adult has a responsibility to support themselves financially is completely alien and will be met with endless justifications and excuses if suggested.

Overall some guys actually seek such women, because they're also the ones more likely to buy into the traditional roles, and some guys still seek this. Given this many only nominally buy into those roles (i.e. a woman's place is in the home as long as hubby pays for a housekeeper and au pair) and they are the ones who, if the relationship fails, are guaranteed to maximize any kind of asset grab or maintenance from the husband.

So most men, certainly over thirty, nowadays keep their eyes very open for such women (who will do their best to hide the above traits) and avoid them like the plague.

Now all the above can also apply to men too and such people thankfully constitute only a minority out there, but the OP wanted to look at women who fall into this category.

The Corinthian

The Corinthian wrote: »

As a result, the easiest way to get rid of them, early on, is to let it 'slip' that you're either doing badly financially or, especially, that you are in essentially a dead end job yourself

Well, I want someone who can take care of themselves and has a bit of passion for their career, so I imagine it's a lot more than gold diggers that would go cold if someone is happy in a "dead end job" or doing badly - for any more than short term, anyway

ash23

bluewolf wrote: »

Well, I want someone who can take care of themselves and has a bit of passion for their career, so I imagine it's a lot more than gold diggers that would go cold if someone is happy in a "dead end job" or doing badly - for any more than short term, anyway

I agree.
If someone told me they were doing badly financially then I wouldn't want them. Not because I'm a gold digger. But because I don't want them relying on me financially. I want someone with some drive and independence. They don't need to be rich but I wouldn't be keen on someone telling me early on in the relationship that they are in financial trouble.

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

Well, I want someone who can take care of themselves and has a bit of passion for their career, so I imagine it's a lot more than gold diggers that would go cold if someone is happy in a "dead end job" or doing badly - for any more than short term, anyway

Sorry, I explained that badly. By 'dead end job' I meant a man who's got a modest earning potential (on a par or at best slightly better than the woman question) but who is unlikely to rise financially in the future, like her. He can take care of himself financially, but is unlikely to be able to take care of her to the level that she seeks in the future.

As for passion in their career, I think this is an important thing for anyone to seek in a potential partner as long as they have passion in their own career too.

Edit: Anyhow, I was really only talking about how to get rid of them at that point.

fits

yep. Having gone out with someone who was completely irresponsible financially, I would never, ever put myself in that position again.

smash

I heard a discussion on the radio last night where a guy was considering breaking up with his gf because she earns more than him. He reckoned the most he could ever make in his career would be 50k a year whereas she was on her way to a 150k job. She wanted to settle down and buy a house etc but he said it made him feel like less of a man, or that he wouldn't be able to 'take care of her in the way she deserved'.

I found the whole thing bizarre.

clairefontaine

I'm finding the main theses of this thread completely divorced from any reality I recognise.

When you read the papers, the financial advice forums, it would appear that financial stress, difficulty and debt management transcend, age, gender and marital status. It is across the board.

Just today in the paper there is an article about 25,000 seeking debt deals in new insolvency laws.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/25000-expected-to-seek-debt-deals-under-new-insolvency-rules-29108511.html

Legs.Eleven

The Corinthian wrote: »

If people will forgive my adding a male perspective, such women are a minority that we have to keep our eyes open for as we get older, especially once we're over thirty. Typical of such women are the following traits:

No career to speak of. Likely they have a job that 'pays the bills' but have never progressed much beyond entry level. Sometimes they'll have practically no work experience by 35, having remained in college (repeating courses or doing postgrads in something utterly useless in the Real World, but with no academic ambitions) until 30, then spending as much time unemployed as employed.

Living beyond their means. The current economy has meant that many have been forced to do this, but at least most will do their best and economize. What living beyond your means, in this context, means is where they don't economize. For example, they'll take holidays they cannot afford, and stay in hotels rather than seeking cheaper accommodation. Or choose to live somewhere where the rent is high, or have a car they can do without and cannot afford, or eat out rather than cook in.

In short, expenditure exceeds income, despite the fact that were they to economize they could live within their means.

Fiscal irresponsibility to the point of fraud. They're always in debt. Credit cards, buying on lease, overdrafts. In addition, they'll almost always have bad debts - bills they pay late or don't pay at all (leaving an apartment without paying the last few months rent is an example of this). Again, this isn't unusual in the current economy, but when combined with living beyond your means, it's a sure sign.

Parental sponging. Already discussed here in some detail and why men do keep an eye out for such women as we grow older, because as they grow older, they silently realize that they're going to have to replace the parental support and a husband.

As a result, the easiest way to get rid of them, early on, is to let it 'slip' that you're either doing badly financially or, especially, that you are in essentially a dead end job yourself - short term debt is forgivable, but poor long term earning potential tends to be a deal-breaker. They go very cold, very quickly soon after.

Entitlement. A sense that they're entitled to be given money - it's their right to get money from others. The idea that an adult has a responsibility to support themselves financially is completely alien and will be met with endless justifications and excuses if suggested.

Overall some guys actually seek such women, because they're also the ones more likely to buy into the traditional roles, and some guys still seek this. Given this many only nominally buy into those roles (i.e. a woman's place is in the home as long as hubby pays for a housekeeper and au pair) and they are the ones who, if the relationship fails, are guaranteed to maximize any kind of asset grab or maintenance from the husband.

So most men, certainly over thirty, nowadays keep their eyes very open for such women (who will do their best to hide the above traits) and avoid them like the plague.

Now all the above can also apply to men too and such people thankfully constitute only a minority out there, but the OP wanted to look at women who fall into this category.

Honest question: why would you put tips up to avoid these women in TLL?

The Corinthian

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Honest question: why would you put tips up to avoid these women in TLL?

Honest answer: It was the specific topic and I thought in this case a male perspective might illuminate because it's something men do encounter probably more directly for obvious reasons, and you do get an insight into how they think as a result.

It was more a description, than tips, TBH. If it read as the latter, then that was genuinely accidental.

If a guy were to ask a similar question about 'mammy's boys', I suspect women might be better equipped (or at least have a different insight) to describe them for the same reason.

Legs.Eleven

The Corinthian wrote: »

Honest answer: It was the specific topic and I thought in this case a male perspective might illuminate because it's something men do encounter probably more directly for obvious reasons, and you do get an insight into how they think as a result.

It was more a description, than tips, TBH. If it read as the latter, then that was genuinely accidental.

If a guy were to ask a similar question about 'mammy's boys', I suspect women might be better equipped (or at least have a different insight) to describe them for the same reason.

I don't understand the bit in bold. Would you mind explaining it?

I think we know what a sponging involves as all your "descriptions" above have already been covered in the thread.