Engineers Ireland Report 2013

Sponge Bob

The second runway was in planning for years up to c 2007-8 but was shelved in 2009 when terminal 2 construction costs ballooned into the stratosphere. A properly managed T2 construction would have left the price of runway 2 in the kitty.

I dont think that what went through planning could accomodate a fully laden 777 or A800 at maximum range heading for Perth all the same. I think that there was talk of future proofing that second runway with another 500 metres which means/meant back into planning again....and then it was shelved anyway owing to T2 and to catastrophic passenger shortfalls from 2008 to 2010 which banjaxed the growth projections.

On a further point ....they have permission to build a 3110 meter runway but that expires in late 2016/early 2017 so really they need to decide to build runway 2 in 2013...finance it in 2014 and roll diggers onsite in early 2015 to be sure. They will not be able to go back into planning for a 3500m+ meter runway or we'll never hear the end of it....well not before 2020.

This is the valid permission.

http://www2.pleanala.ie/documents/orders/217/D217429.pdf

Permission to construct on airport lands, a runway,
3,110 metres in length and 75 metres in width. The permission sought to include all
associated taxiways, associated road works including internal road network,
substations, navigational equipment, equipment enclosures, security fencing,
drainage, ducting, lighting, services diversions, landscaping and all associated site
development works including the demolition of an existing derelict house and
associated outbuildings, the relocation of the Forrest Tavern monument; the removal
of a halting site including the demolition of any structure whether temporary or
permanent on that site which is currently leased from the applicant. The road works
include the realignment of an 800 metre section of the Forrest Little Road; the
rerouting of a 700 metre section of the Naul Road (R108) and a 200 metre section of
the Dunbro Lane and replacement of these latter roads with a new two kilometre long
road (7.5 metres wide carriageway) running in an east-west direction connecting to
the Saint Margaret’s Bypass at a new junction. The proposed duration of this
permission is 10 years. The application also sought to demolish the existing runway
11-29 (1,357 metres in length and 61 metres in width) and the relocation of an engine
testing area from its position north of runway 11-29 to apron located in the vicinity of
the existing fire station, near the centre of the airfield. The development is located on
lands of approximately 261 hectares in the townlands of Millhead, Kingstown,
Dunbro, Barberstown, Pickardstown, etc etc

Either way ....if runway 1 needs a major reconstruction you are correct. Dublin is in trouble if the runway needs constant repair owing to age and I wouldn't worry about the EU...only about the solvency of the DAA who own the asset. Cant see R2 built for 3 years either no matter what.

Then there is the inevitability of what happens once the second runway is built in Dublin and the first one repaired. Read this story about the OTHER International Airport in Los Angeles. whose main carrier is the local Ryanair. There is a strong trend towards fewer larger airports, misread in Spain as a trend towards larger airports leaving them with a stack of new mothballed Ghost airports like Murcia and Castellon and the spectacular €1bn+ wasted on Madrid Sur before it was closed. (the other pair never even opened)

Inevitably it means that Knock plus one of Cork or Shannon should be let go medium term as well...Cork being the most likely candidate. But thats a discussion for about 2020 or so. If we have a motorway grid we don't really need any more than 2 full international airports in Ireland and only 2 can handle the full mix of long and short haul owing to runway lengths. We need redundancy..eg plane a must land and Dublin is foggy/icy or crosswinds are too high in Shannon compared to Dublin...various rasons anyway.

In the short term the demands of Knock Airport for Government funds of no less than €75m ( €15m a year) are convulsing Mayo politics and I would expect Cork - Shannon to get thrown in the pot thereafter with Cork more likely to be closed than Shannon IMO.

The trend is towards fewer and bigger airports and being able to remain airside for transfers instead of stuck in security queues. If that is the trend then Runway 2 is needed ( at the greater not the lesser length ) and that will have implications elsewhere. Add the fact that we need a Motorway network between Galway and Cork ANYWAY (most especially if Vehicles become electric/autopiloted over time) and that puts Shannon Airport an hour from the north side of Cork and under an hour from Galway ....and in fact about the same time from Athlone as Dublin is now by 2015 if the Gort Tuam motorway section is completed.

If the Inland Empire in California...same population (ish ) as Ireland in an area the overall size of the Republic of Ireland ...but including Death Valley etc cannot really sustain an airport then what chance have we got, eh????

But the 'needs' of Cork and Shannon should not determine whether that runway is built...only the finances of the DAA whose group debt is €1.2bn on turnover of €550m ( static in fairness 2009-2011) of which profit is €90m before debt servicing. They havea cash pile which shrank €200m to €450m over the same period (T2 payments) and lets see if they can hold the cash pile above €400m when they next report in April or May post the Shannon stripout) meanining that DAA have a NET debt of €800 ( gross debt minus cash pile) which is around 1.5x turnover.

Irish Steve

Last I heard was that there were discussions of making it 3660 mtrs, but I don't know if that's correct or not, the essential aspect is that it needs to be capable of supporting the operation of fully loaded 747's of whatever variety, and the A380, those are the aircraft of choice at the moment for long haul, which will be a factor in Dublin's future.

Strangely enough, before all the security nonsense and the like, it was possible to transfer from one flight to another airside without the security nonsense, and if it were possible now, it would enhance Dublin's potential as a hub for Trans Atlantic routes.

I don't think there's any doubt that DAA have made some significant mistakes over the years, but a lot of that can be attributed to political manipulation and political appointees to the board, which did no favours to the operation.

The problem we have at the moment is that there is no one prepared to look at anything long term, the politicians have us all locked into never looking beyond the next election, and that's one of the things that's damaging the economy big time, the time needed for many infrastructure projects is much longer than the average politicians attention span, so those sorts of issues tend to fall off the radar, as those same politicians do not expect to see a political return from such projects, so they lose interest very rapidly. Then there's the problem that some projects may actually not be popular, and you may be sure that the same politicians will either defer them, or blame someone else for them, for the same reasons.

Given the right facilities, Dublin could handle a lot more international and transatlantic traffic than it does, especially if the American pre clearance were to be promoted. That's not been happening, it's all very low key at the moment, for whatever reason.

The important issue is that Dublin needs to have international standard facilities in order to compete internationally, for both passengers and cargo. At the moment, the cargo facilities are a shambles, very old, and very low capacity, which has meant that air cargo handllng is still at a very low level compared to many other airports, and the DAA seems to have done very little to improve that situation, and seems to have little interest in doing anything to change it, their focus seems to be based on making the airport Ireland's largest pub, which does little to enhance the reputation of the airport, way too often, passengers are missing when needed for boarding, and are found in a bar somewhere.

Hopefully, before it's too late, someone will get the relevant politicians to take notice of the massive importance that Dublin Airport has in the island wide economy, and make sure that failings there don't have a negative impact on the rest of the country. We can but hope, past history is not encouraging in that respect.

Sponge Bob

Irish Steve wrote: »

Last I heard was that there were discussions of making it 3660 mtrs, but I don't know if that's correct or not, the essential aspect is that it needs to be capable of supporting the operation of fully loaded 747's of whatever variety, and the A380, those are the aircraft of choice at the moment for long haul, which will be a factor in Dublin's future.

Frankly their choice is build a suboptimal 3.1km runway by 2017 or build a more optimal 3.6km runway after 2017 and a new planning process. (I reckon it could take that long to get through planning) .

They can always deliver the north runway as planned and rebuild the current one at 3.6km later instead.

Meanwhile will the existing runway last to either 2017 or a later date absent a major overhaul.?

I don't think there's any doubt that DAA have made some significant mistakes over the years, but a lot of that can be attributed to political manipulation and political appointees to the board, which did no favours to the operation.

VeryTrue, on balance.

The problem we have at the moment is that there is no one prepared to look at anything long term

And of course the longer the runway the nearer it gets to the Ministers constituency don't forget.

Carawaystick

antoobrien wrote: »

I'd put Dublin's water as a higher priority than public transport, there are too many areas where one has to have filter jugs and hard water tablets etc,

I don't know what the issue with hard water is?
Where would you suggest getting enough soft water for Dublins needs?

Dishwashers have softer era built in. Is scale a big issue in immersion tanks?
Should water be treated to prevent unsightly scale in toilets???

murphaph

Indeed, our water in Berlin is very hard. Shower heads die after about 2 years use! There's not much that can be done AFAIK if the only practicable water source is hard. We just have to live with it and buy the tabs etc.

Aidan1

Spongebob,

I think you're missing two things in your analysis, both related to SNN;

1. Politics. There's no doubt but that Dublin needs a new runway (and not a new airport as some would have it), but SNN, as a newly independent entity, is making a play for international/widebody traffic, both as a cargo hub and as a service base. A new runway in Dublin, particularly anything longer than 3.5km would be a major problem for those ambitions.

2. Numbers. Shannon is now the third largest airport in the State, having fallen well behind Cork over the last few years (1.4m passengers plays 2.3m in 2012). Moveover, the direct area it serves is not doing well economically, with both Cork and Galway steaming ahead of it in terms of the recovery. And while Galway is only an hour from SNN, it's also only two hours from Dublin, and less again from Knock.

In both cases, any investment in either Cork or Dublin would pose a major challenge to SNN's ability to stay open (there are plans in place for a runway extension in Cork too). Add to that the economic challenges facing the midwest, and the airport infrastructure question is much less simple than you make out. In reality, it's more likely that we'll have 3 or 4 international airports into the future, with Dublin remaining by far the largest, and Cork and Shannon filling different but complimentary roles (Cork as a more passenger focused airport, SNN as commercial hub). If either of those two are to go, its far more likely to be SNN. Dublin could swallow the transatlantic traffic easily. And then there's Knock, which will hopefully be able to survive as a small sun destination/regional airport.

Sponge Bob

Yes Aidan it is possible we will have 3 airports in future, I consider 4 to be unlikely. Furthermore Cork and Knock are high up and suffer more weather related closures than the other two.

Shannons future will largely be required redundancy for dublin/atlantic safety and redundancy for LHR if weather shuts that/freight/small scale passenger operations eg to UK and Schiphol and Paris hubs plus charter ops in summer.

I don't think Cork can easily be extended to 3000m though ...perhaps if the N27 Kinsale Road were tunneled and upgraded to Motorway as planned .... it might.

However I think a longer runway in Dublin is inevitable so whats the point in dicking around with it. Fewer but larger airports is the global trend, not a pissant full service short haul strip in every town.

cgcsb

I think it's unfair to stiffle the development of Dublin and Cork simply to allow uncompetitive entities to compete. It's a capitalist country, it relies on competition. If Dublin had a longer runway it'd be a very attractive hub for Turkish and Indian Airlines to use as a stop over, with US pre-clearance facilities, we'd give us an advantage over Heathrow.

Aidan1

I agree on a longer runway for Dublin - it should happen, just pointing out that there are a lot of factors that'll stand in its way, and both Shannon and Knock will be looking for outright grants to stay afloat. With a General Election in 2016 in which the economy in the west and north is unlikely to have recovered much, if at all.

As for Cork, I'm not sure that there is a need to go to 3,000m, even if they could do so easily without major civils work. In all reality, scheduled widebody traffic is unlikely to ever really be a runner, but they do need another couple of hundred meters for safety reasons (and to handle heavier traffic). The DAA did an assessment a few years ago, and came up with the suggestion that another 247m at the northern end was the best option, bringing the length to 2,400m. The SLAP for the airport covers it;

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/864863050.pdf

cgcsb

I wonder why the state's airports have been developed as they are. Surely it would have made more sense to locate Shannon airport and industrial area in suburban Galway and develop Cork as a transatlantic airport.

That way you'd have 3 major airports far enough apart that they're not stepping on eachother's toes and they'd serve the captials of their respective regions.

Sponge Bob

Galway was shortlisted ( The Curragh Line north of it) in the 1930s. The project went to Rinneanna instead , in the late 1930s which was, of course, in the Taoiseachs contituency.

antoobrien

cgcsb wrote: »

I wonder why the state's airports have been developed as they are. Surely it would have made more sense to locate Shannon airport and industrial area in suburban Galway and develop Cork as a transatlantic airport.

That way you'd have 3 major airports far enough apart that they're not stepping on eachother's toes and they'd serve the captials of their respective regions.

Shannon developed from the Seaplane service run by PAN-AM, it was a natural decision to build the airport where there was a need for it.

Galway's development only really started in the late 50s/early 60s so it didn't make much sense to have an airport there when Shannon was developing. Even then, a lot of the goods being manufactured in Galway would have benefited more form a seaport than an airport.

I believe it would make most sense to have the ARC & WRC (it'd be cheaper than metro north too) connecting to Shannon, offering a realistic & competitive alternative to Dublin in terms of traffic and catchment population. Right now, despite the fact that Galway - Shannon is around half the distance of Galway - Dublin, it's still easier to get to Dublin airport than Shannon.

That would still leave room for Knock or even Sligo to developed as a regional airport for the North-West (if transport links ever came up to scratch).

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Galway was shortlisted ( The Curragh Line north of it) in the 1930s. The project went to Rinneanna instead , in the late 1930s which was, of course, in the Taoiseachs contituency.

I though that was an urban legend based on typical Irish begrudgery.

Irish Steve

Aidan1 wrote: »

1. Politics. There's no doubt but that Dublin needs a new runway (and not a new airport as some would have it), but SNN, as a newly independent entity, is making a play for international/widebody traffic, both as a cargo hub and as a service base. A new runway in Dublin, particularly anything longer than 3.5km would be a major problem for those ambitions.

2. Numbers. Shannon is now the third largest airport in the State, having fallen well behind Cork over the last few years (1.4m passengers plays 2.3m in 2012). Moveover, the direct area it serves is not doing well economically, with both Cork and Galway steaming ahead of it in terms of the recovery. And while Galway is only an hour from SNN, it's also only two hours from Dublin, and less again from Knock.

In both cases, any investment in either Cork or Dublin would pose a major challenge to SNN's ability to stay open (there are plans in place for a runway extension in Cork too).

Number 1. Dublin needs the longer runway for larger aircraft. What Dublin does not have is acres of spare space for parking larger aircraft, and for larger maintenance hangars, so a 3.6 Km runway represents zero threat to Shannon operations for cargo or maintenance, as both activities require large allocations of space for parking, support services and equipment, which are extremely easy to facilitate at Shannon, and almost impossible at Dublin, the cargo facilities at Dublin right now are pitiful, both in terms of size and capability, and with the recent development of Terminal 2, they are completely in the wrong place, dragging large freight dollies long distances around the airport is a disaster waiting to happen, both in terms of costings and in terms of safety, cargo dollies are not the nicest of things to tow at the best of times, and rattling them over or through drainage channels and the like does not do the contents of the pallets any good at all.

Maintenance requires even more space, especially for some types of work, if there is a delay for spares, or non payment by a customer, the aircraft has to be put somewhere.

Dublin is already having to use the former 11/29 runway for parking, that won't be possible when the new runway gets built, and I've yet to see a multi storey car park for aircraft.

Maybe the simple solution is to build a new fit for purpose International airport near Athlone, with ultra fast rail links to the places that need them, and close Dublin , Shannon and Cork. I can hear the cheering from Portmarnock now, and I'm in Devon:P

Won't happen, if for no other reason than the Parish Pump mentality.

Sponge Bob

Irish Steve wrote: »

Maybe the simple solution is to build a new fit for purpose International airport near Athlone, with ultra fast rail links to the places that need them, and close Dublin , Shannon and Cork. I can hear the cheering from Portmarnock now, and I'm in Devon:P

That idea was proposed 4 years ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ambitious-plan-to-build-new-airport-in-midlands-26487664.html

Rather mad slide presentation about it here

http://www.slideshare.net/P_Little/irish-midlands-airport-2011