New xbox drm and blocks used games

K.O.Kiki

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I on the other hand think it's just publishers being greedy. What they want to do just punishes customers when they have a problem with Gamestop and even still the second hand market is something publishers need to accept and not go blame and punishing customers when a company does something that they were well within their rights to do. There's a reason that copyright holders not being able to profit from the second hand sale of a copy of a copyrighted work is written into copyright law, to stop ridiculous profiteering.

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Varik

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Because that was simplifying it, and it's not that they can't profit from it. Their rights are exhaustion at that point to a degree, i.e you're not able to copy it and sell those copies but you can sell the original. There are overall exception such as artists in some countries being paid a % when a painting is re-sold.

Kirby

o1s1n wrote: »

If people like yourself didn't exist, then the rest of us couldn't get second hand bargains.

Keep up the good work! :pac:

Perhaps true.

But conversely if people like me didn't exist, you would't have any games to play at all. If everyone acted as you did, the publishers would make no money and the industry would collapse.

You are welcome.

I also find it peculiar that a mod of a gaming forum would so readily advocate the destruction of the gaming industry by encouraging people to buy second hand. I mean, if you had your way......you will end up mod of a forum that doesn't exist.

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

Perhaps true.

But conversely if people like me didn't exist, you would't have any games to play at all. If everyone acted as you did, the publishers would make no money and the industry would collapse.

You are welcome.

I also find it peculiar that a mod of a gaming forum would so readily advocate the destruction of the gaming industry by encouraging people to buy second hand. I mean, if you had your way......you will end up mod of a forum that doesn't exist.

Like the book/comic book industry, the music industry, movies etc ?

I do agree with people should be getting the money for what they made but i think saying the industry would collapse is blowing things out of proportion

Retr0gamer

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Wait... so how the fúck are they getting away with "online passes"?

Online passes either unlock content (a form of DLC really) or else offer access to the games servers where the customer is paying for a service rather than a copyrighted piece of software. They don't lock the player completely out of the game either.

Also it has never been tested in the court of law meaning there's no official stance on whether the law in this case has enough strength that it can be enforced.

Kirby

richymcdermott wrote: »

Like the book/comic book industry, the music industry, movies etc ?

I do agree with people should be getting the money for what they made but i think saying the industry would collapse is blowing things out of proportion

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

TiGeR KiNgS

Kirby wrote: »

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

utter nonsense.

Kirby

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

But people do by new.. Not everyone by used . No one is going to fork out 50-60 quid on a new game and in some cases like for me what do i do when a game goes out of print and my only option is to buy used ?

The demise of a company due to lack of fund is bad management . Thq learned that the hard way with u draw.

If a game like battlefield 3 has millions behind its development and ea decided to use 100 million for advertisement . No matter how much people buy new , it be crazy to think ea could profit from all that spending.

Then you have a company like nis america who make obsecure jrpg who are still hanging on in there with their stronghold title disgaea. A smart company can survive , even if people buy second hand.

Not directly putting this towards you but there is people like you that praise gaming industry to be special and shouldnt have a second hand market , i do wonder do the same person support any other industry by buying cds, movies ?

TiGeR KiNgS

Kirby wrote: »

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

So by you logic people who buy second hand cars are leechers. Which make up probably close to 100% of people at some point in there lifetime.

We live in a market based economy. It is our democratic right to buy and sell legally obtained goods.

(And my post didn't need any explanation. I just gave one to satisfy you.)

biggebruv

Kirby wrote: »

If nobody bought any games new, the industry would collapse. It's a fairly simple and accurate statement.

People who only buy second hand are leeching in the same way that Pirates do. It may be legal leeching, but it's leeching all the same. None of your money is getting to the people that matter. It's all going to the retailer.

Morally second hand buyers may feel superior to pirates and illegal downloaders......but both are damaging the industry in the same way. I.E not paying the people who actually produce the games.

Sorry I don't agree there will always be people who buy brand new on day1 no matter what im buying tomb raider next Tuesday because im impatient:D and want to play it the second it goes on sale I know if I wait just a few weeks extra maybe what 2? 3? I could get it for abit cheaper second hand but something like god of war 4 I can wait till second hand pops up and im sure other people would be the other way around everyone has that game there dying to get and will get it day 1 no matter what.

What im more confused about is the online stores on PSN/XLIVE why in the hell are the games alot more expensive than the physical copies in the shops??

are they even aware that the digital copies have no CD,BOX,COVER,MANUAL,SHIPPING COSTS.

also with this theres no trade in option for us or no CD to bring to a mates

yet the stores get off on charging us above the price of retail shops WTF!! for next gen developers/publishers and microsoft/sony should work together to bring great deals on these stores and release brand new games DAY1 for 40euros not flipping 70euro maybe even release the games a week early that would certainly bring in some dough

I know if tomb raider was on the store right now for 40euros and was a week early I would DL it right now

Azza

I'm pretty sure if the second hand market didn't exist game retailers wouldn't be able to survive.

If they go bust then that would be extremely damaging to game developers and publishers as most of the consoles sales are still done at retail than digitally.

You could still go to Super Markets and the like but they tend to cheery pick the most popular titles. The selection of games on offer to the consumer would be poorer.

biggebruv

Azza wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if the second hand market didn't exist game retailers wouldn't be able to survive.

If they go bust then that would be extremely damaging to game developers and publishers as most of the consoles sales are still done at retail than digitally.

You could still go to Super Markets and the like but they tend to cheery pick the most popular titles. The selection of games on offer to the consumer would be poorer.

good point HMV is f**ked maybe it would have helped them if they had that good hold of the second hand market that gamestop seems to have

Kirby

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

So by you logic people who buy second hand cars are leechers. Which make up probably close to 100% of people at some point in there lifetime.

We live in a market based economy. It is our democratic right to buy and sell legally obtained goods.

(And my post didn't need any explanation. I just gave one to satisfy you.)

No, thats not my logic....at all.

Your comparison is a poor one and highly illogical as there is no comparison between the motor industry and the games one. I shouldn't have to explain the difference between hardware sales and software sales and why they can't be compared. Maybe I do?

And to touch on your spiel about "democratic rights to buy and sell" for a moment, I have no issue with people selling their goods to other people. My issue is when they sell them to corporations who then sell the same item at a 500% markup to another person the same day and pocket the lot.

To re-iterate my original point, second hand sales hurt the industry as a whole and I will not shed a tear to see attempts to curb it.

Regardless, whether it happens this generation or the next, the second hand market as we known it won't last. Digital distribution is the future and while I'm sure we will see games traded second hand through account transfers and the like, the days of people walking in to retail outlets to sell them is numbered. The only question is whats the number.

dreamers75

Watermark on a replicated disc hmmm. < cds/dvds are replicated from a master, depending on the title it could be in the millions> to watermark a disc you would need to change the master each time or Panasonic would have to invent/create a way to "write" a serial as such to a dvd at the end of the moulding process.

Sounds expensive

Could just put a serial on each case and once activated its tied to your account, its seems to work well on another platform that knows nothing about this pre owned lark......other platform has cheap games tho.........

I would have no issue with this if games did not cost 60 bucks a pop. Games like cod could charge 30 buck a game and still make huge money

If second hand games are stopped it creates a monopoly of sorts and games will hit 100 euro a pop in no time

Cookie_Monster

Kirby wrote: »

Nice post. I like how you explained your position and then backed up your opinion.

If you disagree with me, by all means have at it. Debate is welcome. But what you are doing is simply trolling.

does the same go for second hand cars or houses or furniture or dvd boxsets or books?
Your point is utter ridiculous.

And to touch on your spiel about "democratic rights to buy and sell" for a moment, I have no issue with people selling their goods to other people. My issue is when they sell them to corporations who then sell the same item at a 500% markup to another person the same day and pocket the lot.

the same occurs in the motor industry, sell to dealer, dealer resells for considerable more, or furniture, books & movies again or even gold.

Digital distribution is the future and while I'm sure we will see games traded second hand through account transfers and the like, the days of people walking in to retail outlets to sell them is numbered. The only question is whats the number.

remove the resale potential and you'll also have to drastically reduce the price. A big part of the value of games to the player is to get X amount of play out of them and then sell to regain some of that value. Not being able to sell automatically makes them far less valuable and people will buy far less games than they would otherwise if they can't move them on.

The ideal solution is, like the music industry, the removal of publishers from the equation with companies going direct to market themselves much like bands now achieve via the web or itunes.

Kirby

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The ideal solution is, like the music industry, the removal of publishers from the equation with companies going direct to market themselves much like bands now achieve via the web or itunes.

The ideal solution, eh? Itunes and the web. You mean digital distribution? Like I said was the future in my post? Well we agree it would seem!

richymcdermott

Kirby wrote: »

The ideal solution, eh? Itunes and the web. You mean digital distribution? Like I said was the future in my post? Well we agree it would seem!

I was all for buying digital till the stunt sony pulled with the ps3 games not playing on ps4 due to different hardware that prevents it.

Also taken into account if games go digital what why would publishers feel the need to drop their games in price, looking assassin creed 3 or fifa thats on psn is 80 quid. You hear developers say if games go digital games go cheaper yet no one proved it yet.

What happens if a company goes out of business. All your purchases are gone.

Retr0gamer

richymcdermott wrote: »

I was all for buying digital till the stunt sony pulled with the ps3 games not playing on ps4 due to different hardware that prevents it.

Coldn't really be helped. Each game would have to be extensivelly reworked or an emulator built which just isn't feasible considering the horsepower required (the timing between a CPU and six SPU's would be insane to code for, just look how much power is required to run Sega Saturn emulators and all that had was two parallel processors).

The architecture is just too different but perhaps Gaikai will be a solution.

Varik

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Coldn't really be helped. Each game would have to be extensivelly reworked or an emulator built which just isn't feasible considering the horsepower required (the timing between a CPU and six SPU's would be insane to code for, just look how much power is required to run Sega Saturn emulators and all that had was two parallel processors).

The architecture is just too different but perhaps Gaikai will be a solution.

Still can't believe the response to this, everyone accepts that it wouldn't have BC but when they find out that means digital games won't play they go bat****.

Like BC is only something to do with disc and downloads can all magically play.

Retr0gamer

It's another reason why going digital sucks but I can see why it's impossible for Sony to offer it.

tim3000

I don't think its fair for them to watermark games like this, I mean big car companies don't get and profit from resale of their products. If Microsoft do this it will be a large deciding factor on what console most people buy for the next generation

deathrider

Kirby wrote: »

Regardless, whether it happens this generation or the next, the second hand market as we known it won't last. Digital distribution is the future and while I'm sure we will see games traded second hand through account transfers and the like, the days of people walking in to retail outlets to sell them is numbered. The only question is whats the number.

As a games collector, as opposed to just being a game player, this makes the appeal of gaming drop somewhat for me. I'm not a guy from trading in, and a lot of games I aqcuire a second hand (usually through other means than Gamestop, but whatever). A lot of the ones I'm looking for simply ain't on the shelves any more. Games that I wouldn't have heard of when they were big, or games that haven't sold well, therefore making them hard to come by. If/when everything goes digital, I'd imagine my view will swiftly change from being a serious collector and wanting to add to my collection, to simply not giving a rat's arse about current gaming.

animaal

I can see this killing a number of smaller games producers. Right now, if I see a game I like, I can take a chance on it. It might be good. If not, I know I can trade it in for something else. In reality, I very rarely trade in anything, but it's a safety net.

How likely am I to take a chance on a game I haven't played, paying 60 quid (or more?) for it and knowing I'm stuck with it even if it's rubbish?

Also, I'd imagine the effect will be worse on bricks-n-mortar stores. There's no way when I'm in town I'd pop into a shop I'm passing and pick up a game. Instead, I'll feel the need to have done my research online. And if I'm doing that online anyway, why not just order it there and then?

jill_valentine

Most people don't buy only second hand, or only new, they buy a combination, and trade one against the other. They aren't two separate markets, they're interdependent.

If the second hand market goes, then no ifs or buts about it, bricks and mortar videogame shops of any kind are gone. Overnight. It is absolutely impossible for a videogame store to survive on the profit margins of new games alone, they only sell them as part of their trade in strategy, and the few left are under terrific pressure already. If pre owned goes, that's it.

The big two will only kill the possibility of pre-owned if they're absolutely confident that they no longer need to sell physical games, at all.

Are we at a point where the second hand market is costing publishers more than the loss of a physical medium sales channel would?

krudler

krudler wrote: »

I was in there the other day and they had a copy of Dead Space 3 there new for 54.99 and used for 49.99, why would you bother for the sake of a fiver? sealed copy with any dlc intact or used one without.

I was in the queue last year in gamestop and witnessed a similar situation.
The woman was deciding (with the "help" of the gamestop worker) between buying GTA IV for €45 new....or buy it used with gamestop disk protection for €43 (€40 + €3)

Any guesses for what she convinced to get?

Seamus Aran

Kirby wrote: »

And to touch on your spiel about "democratic rights to buy and sell" for a moment, I have no issue with people selling their goods to other people. My issue is when they sell them to corporations who then sell the same item at a 500% markup to another person the same day and pocket the lot.

What's the difference between selling to a person and selling to a shop? And how a should a shop trade without charging a markup?

I can't see this going ahead. It may look tempting to publishers and developers initially but when you consider it for more than a few seconds the problems are obvious. Second hand games are all that's keeping GameStop in business. Now dev's and pub's are annoyed that GS can buy back a game and make 20 or 30 euro reselling it and that's understandable. It's the reason we've seen the introduction if online codes which personally I think us the way to go though the idea solution would be for pub' s and stires such as GS to come to an agreement where GS could buy the online codes off of them and package them with preplayed copies. Now ideally part of the deal would have to see GS sell the titles at a lower price which in its self opens upon a whole other range of issues. Could they still be profitable if they were selling titles at 40 euro instead if 50 and would the price they give for trade in drop by 10 euro.

The reason why the move suggested in the op will never work is because Microsoft and all the devs need brick and mortar stores. The near collapse of HMV has highlighted just how. It was the studios who fought for HMV to survive because while digital distribution is available for all their product it's just not been adapted by the majority if customers. A number of smaller lans have had to postpone releases till HMV stabilised and had HMV gone there was seriously concerns about the future of many smaller labels. Tesco, Amazon, etc would surely stock all the big titles but its a situation that the publishers would not be happy with give that those massive chains are able to buy in the new Fifa at massively reduced rates meaning that the publishers loses 10 euro per copy that Tesco sell Over GameStop. No GameStop mean that smaller titles will never get a chance and secondly that EA and the like will lose millions every year because they major players won't be willing to pay market value so to speak.

richymcdermott

Pretty much confirmed now that ms new xbox is drm ready after these sleezy arrogant messages from one of their employees

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2013/04/05/microsoft-creative-director-on-always-online-deal-with-it