Leinster schools cup *read mod note in post 1 27/2/13*

Hagz

FellasFellas wrote: »

Moloney made a few turnovers now, he's a good scavenger on the deck. I agree, I just find Timoney to be a, as you say, one dimensional player.

I haven't counted one turn-over? Do you know the time-frame of any of the turn-overs he made?

slackers88 wrote: »

Moloney smashed the blackrock 15 in the first half and also scored an exceptional try.....he was vastly superior to timoney today, although timoney is only in fifth year and will only get better. But without a shadow of a doubt moloney was far better today

Well I have the game Sky+ so I have the privilege of analysing it. Moloney did, as you said make a smashing hit on the 'Rock 15, but it has to be said that the 15 had already given the ball out.

Like I said, Moloney was impressive, but there's no point saying he was vastly superior to Timoney when as I said they performed different roles. Moloney carried the ball half as many times as Timoney and put in the same number of tackles. Moloney spent a lot of the match out close to the wing to make himself a link, which he did on several occasions, that would have made him seem more prominent in the game. Perhaps that's why you think he was far better.

Hagz

opinionatedfan wrote: »

was injured in previous match and barely made it for todays game.

also laughable to call timoney a one dimensional player

Ah, that would explain it.

For the record I never said he was a one dimensional player, I just said that his performance today was one-dimensional. But in a good way. He was used frequently as a carrier and he made great ground in doing so.

opinionatedfan

Hagz wrote: »

Ah, that would explain it.

For the record I never said he was a one dimensional player, I just said that his performance today was one-dimensional. But in a good way. He was used frequently as a carrier and he made great ground in doing so.

yeah i know, i was more replying to the other poster who called him a one dimensional player.

FellasFellas

opinionatedfan wrote: »

yeah i know, i was more replying to the other poster who called him a one dimensional player.

That would be me. We've had run-ins in the past sir, and I'll leave it at that. Merely my opinion.

opinionatedfan

I just disagree with the assertion that Nick Timoney is a one dimension player

FellasFellas

opinionatedfan wrote: »

I just disagree with the assertion that Nick Timoney is a one dimension player

It's my opinion, I take your disagreement as yours, cool.

roscrea had a great chance this year - they won't have so good a team again. Roscrea outhalf really should have knocked over that easy kick just in front of the posts before half time. then again just as he was about to put boot to ball someone successfully put him off by shouting some rubbish at him from a group of blackrock jerseys on the side with no stand. Still he should have got it. His kicking was gone after that.

Lobby Con Shine

glasso wrote: »

roscrea had a great chance this year - they won't have so good a team again. Roscrea outhalf really should have knocked over that easy kick just in front of the posts before half time. then again just as he was about to put boot to ball someone successfully put him off by shouting some rubbish at him from a group of blackrock jerseys on the side with no stand. Still he should have got it. His kicking was gone after that.

How oh how did Roscrea contrive to lose that game yesterday?

They must be kicking themselves. Yes, the missed kicks from the OH hurt but his sublime try, manufactured from nothing, should not be forgotten.

Fair play to Blackrock, a great comeback, but you can't help feeling that the second best team go through to the final.

Bridge93

Lobby Con Shine wrote: »

How oh how did Roscrea contrive to lose that game yesterday?

They must be kicking themselves. Yes, the missed kicks from the OH hurt but his sublime try, manufactured from nothing, should not be forgotten.

Fair play to Blackrock, a great comeback, but you can't help feeling that the second best team go through to the final.

Cant really say they were second best. I'd say overall territory was fairly 50/50 Roscrea were more clinical for a while. But coat it whatever way you want rock had a man less for 30 minutes and were 11 down with 15 to go and won. That's impressive and in my biased view surely they deserve everything they got for that. Roscrea weren't anywhere near as fit. Rock had more of the game when they had 14 which is something. Bar the two tries and one other occasion Roscrea were defending for the last 30

backrower8

thebaz wrote: »

good point , for all michaels recent success they have produced v. few, if any, serious players for leinster , never mind Ireland

You are right that Michaels haven't produced their fair share of players at the top echelons post school but wrong if you think there have been none.

Derek McGrath (wing-forward who played for Leinster and Munster and was capped in 1986 and 1987 and is the Chief Executive of the ERC); Paddy Gavin (winger for Old Belvedere and Leinster in the 80s & 90s); John Collins (2nd Row, Trinity & Leinster in 80s 90s); Paul Cunningham (hooker for Garryowen and Munster in the 90s); Stephen Rooney (WF for Lansdowne & Leinster in 90's); Ray Hennessy (Winger/FB for Lansdowne, Leinster & Exile in 90s); Simon Keogh (Harlequins and Leinstr in recent years)

...still way short of the standard the school has produced in the last decade but with 4 in the Academy (incl Noel Reid who has a fair few Lainster caps to his name) there is likely to be an improvement soon.

FellasFellas

Apparently Coughlan's appeal didn't go well today as he received a red in preseason and that was taken into account. Not sure what the outcome was or is going to be, but isn't looking good.

BallHandling Hooker

backrower8 wrote: »

...still way short of the standard the school has produced in the last decade but with 4 in the Academy (incl Noel Reid who has a fair few Lainster caps to his name) there is likely to be an improvement soon.

Noel Reid was in the early part of the successes that they've had. Only in recent years have they had a large portion of the team on representatives at 18s or 19s.

Before that, Only Royce Burke-Flynn is still attempting to make a career out of the game.

Sandwlch

BallHandling Hooker wrote: »

Royce Burke-Flynn

Is that for real ? Or a character from the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly world ?

FellasFellas

Sandwlch wrote: »

Is that for real ? Or a character from the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly world ?

He was in the Leinster Academy and then moved to Italy I think to play and now is playing for Tarf.

BallHandling Hooker

FellasFellas wrote: »

He was in the Leinster Academy and then moved to Italy I think to play and now is playing for Tarf.

Last I heard he was at Doncaster Knights, featured here in an old article about Exiles http://murraykinsella.wordpress.com/tag/royce-burke-flynn/

opinionatedfan

BallHandling Hooker wrote: »

Last I heard he was at Doncaster Knights, featured here in an old article about Exiles http://murraykinsella.wordpress.com/tag/royce-burke-flynn/

He is back with Tarf now.

irishbucsfan

What's the latest on the other semi? When is it and who will win etc?

opinionatedfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What's the latest on the other semi? When is it and who will win etc?

it tomorrow at 4pm, Micheal's versus Newbridge.

would be a massive upset if Micheal's don't win.

backrower8

BallHandling Hooker wrote: »

Noel Reid was in the early part of the successes that they've had. Only in recent years have they had a large portion of the team on representatives at 18s or 19s.

Before that, Only Royce Burke-Flynn is still attempting to make a career out of the game.

Large portion of the team aside, they...OK we (!)...have had a steady stream of representative players at post-school underage representative level for many years.

BallHandling Hooker

backrower8 wrote: »

Large portion of the team aside, they...OK we (!)...have had a steady stream of representative players at post-school underage representative level for many years.

It used to be max 3 a year, now it's closer to ten.

And only recently have they started featuring at 20s level with Reid, Marsh and McGrath

thebaz

backrower8 wrote: »

Large portion of the team aside, they...OK we (!)...have had a steady stream of representative players at post-school underage representative level for many years.

I raised the point as someone , degraded Newbridge and other league teams as fodder - and Michaels have not produced Senior players (now or in the past) to the same quality as Newbridge - Gonzaga also have produced better senior players than michaels

opinionatedfan

thebaz wrote: »

I raised the point as someone , degraded Newbridge and other league teams as fodder - and Michaels have not produced Senior players (now or in the past) to the same quality as Newbridge - Gonzaga also have produced better senior players than michaels

a school's ability to produce future professional players is a crapshoot.

kevom

Hasn't been mentioned but I thought the Rock 9 was superb.

What a game, nothing like Leinster senior cup rugby. Probably the best underage tournament in the NH for sheer talent and excitement.

backrower8

thebaz wrote: »

I raised the point as someone , degraded Newbridge and other league teams as fodder - and Michaels have not produced Senior players (now or in the past) to the same quality as Newbridge - Gonzaga also have produced better senior players than michaels

No arguments re Newbridge production of top level senior players whatsoever.

However Michaels have produced more full interpro players than Gonzaga - albeit not in the last 5 years.

I have made my point by now on this so will stop boring everyone!

Suasdaguna1

kevom wrote: »

What a game, nothing like Leinster senior cup rugby. Probably the best underage tournament in the NH for sheer talent and excitement.

I've being banging that drum for a long time. I needed a stiff gin post yesterday such was the excitement and I have no ties with either school.

Wattle

When are the Leinster Academy players picked? In the summer?

ormond lad

Wattle wrote: »

When are the Leinster Academy players picked? In the summer?

Normally announced late may or early june.
Last year it was 14/15 of june

lurtz

backrower8 wrote: »

No arguments re Newbridge production of top level senior players whatsoever.

However Michaels have produced more full interpro players than Gonzaga - albeit not in the last 5 years.

I have made my point by now on this so will stop boring everyone!

Gonzaga have produced more internationals and even a lion and currently have more professional players. the level of competitiveness of Michaels at school then the amount of players who go on always baffles me

kevom

Gonzaga current pro players:

Kevin McLaughlin, John Cooney, Dominic Ryan, Matthew Healy

Michaels current pro players:
?

Hagz

No mention for Keith Gleeson

The argument makes no sense anyway. The number of players who go on to play international/pro rugby isn't an indication of the quality of the squads a school has produced. Not unless the number is significantly high and consistent over the years.

opinionatedfan

kevom wrote: »

Gonzaga current pro players:

Kevin McLaughlin, John Cooney, Dominic Ryan, Matthew Healy

Michaels current pro players:
?

Luke McGrath, Noel Reid, Dan Leavy, Cathal Marsh.

lurtz

kevom wrote: »

Gonzaga current pro players:

Kevin McLaughlin, John Cooney, Dominic Ryan, Matthew Healy

Michaels current pro players:
?

James gethings as well

backrower8

lurtz wrote: »

Gonzaga have produced more internationals and even a lion and currently have more professional players. the level of competitiveness of Michaels at school then the amount of players who go on always baffles me

I stand corrected. I can think of two Gonzaga internationals, Paddy Kenny and the late, great Barry Bresnihan, who coached a team I was on, was of course a Lion. Are there others?

Derek McGrath is Michaels lone standard bearer as an international...but his nephew Luke has a long term shot at joining him

Leinster5

FellasFellas wrote: »

Apparently Coughlan's appeal didn't go well today as he received a red in preseason and that was taken into account. Not sure what the outcome was or is going to be, but isn't looking good.

When will we be made aware if his appeal has been successful or not ?

themont85

lurtz wrote: »

Gonzaga have produced more internationals and even a lion and currently have more professional players. the level of competitiveness of Michaels at school then the amount of players who go on always baffles me

St Michaels were simply not that great for years. I would describe them and their reputation as spoof for many years putting them in some mythical Big 6. There are plenty of schools other than Zaga and Bridge who have more internationals. They tried all sorts of things to win Cups like take in an Aidan Kearney and Cormac Dowling. They lost in the first round of the Cup plenty of times and for 2 or 3 seasons at a time. Until McWilliams took over the rugby programme properly (and continued by others now) they didn't do it properly. They now bring through a quality of player now that they simply didn't 10 years ago. You can have talent but you also need coaching right down to under 13s. The numbers of Michaels players at underage and intermediate age now coming through shows they will have plenty in a few years. They are the shining light of Leinster schools rugby currently.

With regards to professionals it does come down to luck in a lot of cases. Terenure haven't had a Leinster player since Girvan and before that it really was just the Blaney brothers for a few years keeping their pro ranks swelled. They aren't producing pro players currently.

themont85

opinionatedfan wrote: »

Luke McGrath, Noel Reid, Dan Leavy, Cathal Marsh.

Apart from Reid it the other three don't really count yet.

Bridge93

I heard that the Irish youth coaches are the Michaels coaches? If so might that play a factor?

opinionatedfan

Bridge93 wrote: »

I heard that the Irish youth coaches are the Michaels coaches? If so might that play a factor?

well if its the youths set up then it would have nothing to do with it.

as youth's are clubs and exiles.

wise7

Irish schools and Leinster head coach is the Clongowes coach and one certainly on the climb with a growing repuation for excellence.

Foxtrol

Hagz wrote: »

The argument makes no sense anyway. The number of players who go on to play international/pro rugby isn't an indication of the quality of the squads a school has produced. Not unless the number is significantly high and consistent over the years.

It doesn't have too much bearing on the squads they produce but it does show the quality of the rugby program that they can bring players through to the high standard needed to go pro, especially if a school has a much smaller playing pool such as Newbridge.

AndrewHoey2012

Leinster5 wrote: »

When will we be made aware if his appeal has been successful or not ?

i would be about 99% certain his appeal wasn't today

Wattle

themont85 wrote: »

St Michaels were simply not that great for years. I would describe them and their reputation as spoof for many years putting them in some mythical Big 6. There are plenty of schools other than Zaga and Bridge who have more internationals. They tried all sorts of things to win Cups like take in an Aidan Kearney and Cormac Dowling. They lost in the first round of the Cup plenty of times and for 2 or 3 seasons at a time. Until McWilliams took over the rugby programme properly (and continued by others now) they didn't do it properly. They now bring through a quality of player now that they simply didn't 10 years ago. You can have talent but you also need coaching right down to under 13s. The numbers of Michaels players at underage and intermediate age now coming through shows they will have plenty in a few years. They are the shining light of Leinster schools rugby currently.

With regards to professionals it does come down to luck in a lot of cases. Terenure haven't had a Leinster player since Girvan and before that it really was just the Blaney brothers for a few years keeping their pro ranks swelled. They aren't producing pro players currently.

Yep Michaels have really gotten their act together in the last ten years or so. When I was playing they weren't regarded as serious contenders at all.

Dardis is likely a shoe-in for the academy. And even though Brewer has had disappointing cup campaigns I think they'll try and keep him involved too.

opinionatedfan

Dardis and McKeon are almost locks to make it in my book, unless the sign elsewhere.

Moloney and Brewer are on the cusp.

Think they will have to offer Moloney because he might end up signing elsewhere, Brewer doesn't really have a position yet which could lead to him going to the sub-academy for a few months with a potential mid season promotion ala Adam Byrne.

FrannoFan

Hagz wrote: »

No mention for Keith Gleeson

The argument makes no sense anyway. The number of players who go on to play international/pro rugby isn't an indication of the quality of the squads a school has produced. Not unless the number is significantly high and consistent over the years.

Hard to claim Keith Gleeson as he moved to Oz at a really young age.

There is a question of how players are treated in Michaels,do they suffer burn out?i asked before about the 2007 cup winning side and who is even playing AIL from that side.
This year Michaels didn't put out a transition year team. They won the cup last year so seems bizarre. Undoubtedly they will start producing players as outlined there are 4 in the academy who should progress but i would question is it proportional to the quality of the sides they manage to field in the SCT

opinionatedfan

FrannoFan wrote: »

Hard to claim Keith Gleeson as he moved to Oz at a really young age.

There is a question of how players are treated in Michaels,do they suffer burn out?i asked before about the 2007 cup winning side and who is even playing AIL from that side.
This year Michaels didn't put out a transition year team. They won the cup last year so seems bizarre. Undoubtedly they will start producing players as outlined there are 4 in the academy who should progress but i would question is it proportional to the quality of the sides they manage to field in the SCT

A whole hell of a lot of players stop playing after school.
Michaels are no more intense in preparing than Rock or Clongowes

Player14

opinionatedfan wrote: »

A whole hell of a lot of players stop playing after school.
Michaels are no more intense in preparing than Rock or Clongowes

That is true but there are also a lot more people quitting comepetitive rugby in Michaels during school. Apparently there are about 16 sixth years playing competitively every year now.
I'm sure rock have at least a seconds team of just 6th years.

FrannoFan

opinionatedfan wrote: »

A whole hell of a lot of players stop playing after school.
Michaels are no more intense in preparing than Rock or Clongowes

Totally agree, Micahels not alone in this it is a massive problem in irish rugby. only about 20% keep playing after school and apparently only 20% of those are playing 5 years later.(can't recall exact figures but there was a big IRFU study on it) this sometimes gets masked when we talk about the success of the schools game. Often the players left were not SCT stars or even attended any of the bigger rugby schools. There is a question of player burn out. I am wondering are Michaels more/less/same level as everywhere else.

TheKeenMachine

backrower8 wrote: »

I stand corrected. I can think of two Gonzaga internationals, Paddy Kenny and the late, great Barry Bresnihan, who coached a team I was on, was of course a Lion. Are there others?

Derek McGrath is Michaels lone standard bearer as an international...but his nephew Luke has a long term shot at joining him

Kev McLaughlin and Tony Ensor (fullback in the 70s)

Leinster5

FrannoFan wrote: »

Totally agree, Micahels not alone in this it is a massive problem in irish rugby. only about 20% keep playing after school and apparently only 20% of those are playing 5 years later.(can't recall exact figures but there was a big IRFU study on it) this sometimes gets masked when we talk about the success of the schools game. Often the players left were not SCT stars or even attended any of the bigger rugby schools. There is a question of player burn out. I am wondering are Michaels more/less/same level as everywhere else.

Well St. Michaels from what I hear struggle to get numbers for competitive rugby, especially from 6th year. Harold{a Leinster rep if I'm not mistaken} and several others supposedly decided not to play rugby this year and I remember seeing a post on last years thread about Allen, who now starts hooker for Michaels', refusing to play last year. In Clongowes, there's no problems with getting players to continue playing competitive rugby after school, even some of my Clongowes classmates{who finished school 5 years ago} still play for AIL teams. It's a problem the IRFU need to address quickly.

Islander13

FrannoFan wrote: »

Totally agree, Micahels not alone in this it is a massive problem in irish rugby. only about 20% keep playing after school and apparently only 20% of those are playing 5 years later.(can't recall exact figures but there was a big IRFU study on it) this sometimes gets masked when we talk about the success of the schools game. Often the players left were not SCT stars or even attended any of the bigger rugby schools. There is a question of player burn out. I am wondering are Michaels more/less/same level as everywhere else.

I played SCT level at a big 6 school round the turn of the millenium. Really enjoyed it. A great competition and playing like a semi pro was fantastic. Played u20s and then quit like many others. Don't think the issue was burnout per se but just unless you're on the academy path (which I certainly wasn't) you never quite get the same buzz playing rugby again.