Hare Coursing

gobnaitolunacy

Hunter21 wrote: »

I get the impression all those that want coursing banned want the legal one banned yet they do not realise the money such events bring to local economies, how coursing clubs have actually made hare numbers rise in certain areas and also are unaware that coursing clubs employ vets for both animals welfare.

Before some of ye start voting- ye might think about educating yourself on the subject.

I'm pretty sure the curtailment of your 'sport' will not result in masses of unemployed vets all over the country.

Hunter21

starlings wrote: »

Money doesn't, and shouldn't, guide ethics.

So you want to ban horse racing and greyhound racing too? Those animals get put through their paces quiet often and get whipped all for money..

Mickeroo

Hunter21 wrote: »

I get the impression all those that want coursing banned want the legal one banned yet they do not realise the money such events bring to local economies, how coursing clubs have actually made hare numbers rise in certain areas and also are unaware that coursing clubs employ vets for both animals welfare.

Before some of ye start voting- ye might think about educating yourself on the subject.

I agree on what you're saying regards clubs putting work into conserving hare populations etc. It's the same with hunting clubs, they do a lot of conservation work as it's in their best interest to have a healthy population in the area. There's no denying that and unfortunately its quite hard to get people involved in conservation if there's obvious no profit in it for them. Biodiversity and environmental health aren't enough encouragement it seems.

However, I still find the act itself pretty reprehensible (not hunting in general though) as it is a pretty terrifying experience for the hare and is basically animal torture for people's amusement. As a society I think we should strive to be better than that.

The presence of the muzzle makes it no less cruel imho, at the end of the day it's a predatory animal over twice their size bearing down on them.

Ilik Urgee

Banning the sport would be more detrimental to the welfare of the hare than leaving it as is.
Go to Clounana or any of the legally held courses and you'll find a very professional set-up. No need to ban it,just better policing by both "coursers" and general public.

Hunter21

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the curtailment of your 'sport' will not result in masses of unemployed vets all over the country.

Once anti groups get coursing banned they won't be happy they'll move on and try get all sports to do with animals banned. This in years to come could make a number of vets unemployed.

It's like dominos once one will fall the others will fall in time..

Hunter21

Mickeroo wrote: »

I agree on what you're saying regards clubs putting work into conserving hare populations etc. It's the same with hunting clubs, they do a lot of conservation work as it's in their best interest to have a healthy population in the area. There's no denying that and unfortunately its quite hard to get people involved in conservation if there's obvious no profit in it for them. Biodiversity and environmental health aren't enough encouragement it seems.

However, I still find the act itself pretty reprehensible (not hunting in general though) as it is a pretty terrifying experience for the hare and is basically animal torture for people's amusement. As a society I think we should strive to be better than that.

The presence of the muzzle makes it no less cruel imho, at the end of the day it's a predatory animal over twice their size bearing down on them.

Fair enough, but would you not see it as; "Another mans sport" so leave them be.

Caveman1

It wouldn't affect me in the slightest if Coursing was to be banned or left the way it is, but I find it ammusing how people go on about it being cruel on the hares yet these same people will more than likely eat meat, pork, chicken fish etc. Guess what those animals weren't just put to slepp they cut up to pieces.

ScumLord

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's not in the article, so it doesn't happen?

Hilarious!

Almost as hilarious as assuming it does.

Ava_e wrote: »

To the people who belief I'm lying, this was my experience with hare coursing.


The coursing event I went to was in England where it is illegal .

Comparison falls flat straight away. You can't compare an illegal hobby in one country to a legal sport in another. It's like comparing knacker fighting here to UFC in the states.

reprazant

Hunter21 wrote: »

Once anti groups get coursing banned they won't be happy they'll move on and try get all sports to do with animals banned. This in years to come could make a number of vets unemployed.

It's like dominos once one will fall the others will fall in time..

Oh right, better get the dog fighting and cock fighting back then.

Gotta keep them vets employed.

coolhull

golfball37 wrote: »

What comes next? Banning Hurling because its too violent.:rolleyes:

These are dumb animals ffs. Its a Sport that brings pleasure to many in the countryside and is an integral part of Irish culture..

Its a sport, eh? Are the hares armed with weapons to give then a fighting chance against the hounds?
If you want sports, put on a pair of boxing
gloves and fight someone your own size.
Or take on a pair of greyhounds yourself.
After all, the hounds are muzzled, so you can't possibly be hurt....
Can you?

meoklmrk91

Hunter21 wrote: »

Once anti groups get coursing banned they won't be happy they'll move on and try get all sports to do with animals banned. This in years to come could make a number of vets unemployed.

It's like dominos once one will fall the others will fall in time..

I can assure you that as long as herd testing is around there will not be any unemployed vets in this country.

starlings

Hunter21 wrote: »

So you want to ban horse racing and greyhound racing too? Those animals get put through their paces quiet often and get whipped all for money..

No, I simply said that money should not be a factor in determining if something is right or wrong.

You're turning it into an argument that making money from sports involving animals is inherently bad, and that's not what I meant.

It is possible to make money without hurting animals.

Mickeroo

Hunter21 wrote: »

Fair enough, but would you not see it as; "Another mans sport" so leave them be.

No, because of the torture aspects. Hunting in general I have no problem with.

Mickeroo

coolhull wrote: »

Or take on a pair of greyhounds yourself.

A muzzled bear or lion would be more in the spirit of coursing

kylith

Zombienosh wrote: »

I've seen pictures of dogs having the muzzles removed after catching up to them.

I'd love to know how these people remove the muzzle on a dog travelling at 30mph.

Ava_e wrote: »

To the people who belief I'm lying, this was my experience with hare coursing.


The coursing event I went to was in England where it is illegal . I was staying with my friend and her family, the are into all types of hunting shooting etc... after luch we went for a walk, his son is into hare coursing and he and his fiends had organised it, I went over not really knowing what expect. The dogs were muzzled at first, I found it unplesent, and it did distress the hares a lot.

Towards the end of the evening, it was suggest by the son that the muzzles be taken off, or as one of the party said laughing "one for dinner later".

Two dogs were unmuzzled and ripped the hares to shreds in seconds. As I said earlier maybe their scumbag behaviour is down to overpopulation, either way then and now I found it disgusting.

So you were dismayed that an ILLEGAL event didn't take any account of animal welfare. Quel surprise.

kevthegaff

horseracing is just as cruel but no one says it

Ilik Urgee

Mickeroo wrote: »

A muzzled bear or lion would be more in the spirit of coursing

Is it not the dog's natural instinct to the chase down a hare in the wild?
I know I wouldn't chase a bear.

Shenshen

kevthegaff wrote: »

horseracing is just as cruel but no one says it

No quite. People do say it, they usually aren't listened to, though.

reprazant

kevthegaff wrote: »

horseracing is just as cruel but no one says it

Lots of people say it.

pickarooney

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm sure the hare doesn't notice the muzzles when it's having a fatal heart attack trying to get away from the yokels and their dogs.

It would point to a serious design fault if animals died of fear when being chased. There'd be no hungry predators in any case.

starlings

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Is it not the dog's natural instinct to the chase down a hare in the wild?
I know I wouldn't chase a bear.

Yes, dogs have a natural instinct to chase prey.

The argument here is between people whose instinct is to cheer the dog on - to the point of setting up an artificial contest over a captive hare, and people whose instinct is to sympathise with the hare and wonder what cruelty lies behind people's enjoyment of coursing.

reprazant

pickarooney wrote: »

It would point to a serious design fault if animals died of fear when being chased. There'd be no hungry predators in any case.

Certain animals have a weak heart that actually protects them in the wild from being eaten alive. You may call it a serious design fault but it is a far better way to go than to be torn to bits.

Ilik Urgee

starlings wrote: »

Yes, dogs have a natural instinct to chase prey.

The argument here is between people whose instinct is to cheer the dog on - to the point of setting up an artificial contest over a captive hare,

Where's the captive hare? It's called open coursing for a reason.

[/QUOTE]and people whose instinct is to sympathise with the hare and wonder what cruelty lies behind people's enjoyment of coursing.[/QUOTE]

There is no cruelty when it's being run right and to the letter.
Have you even been to a course meet?

shy-tall-knight

Great sport with a great tradition in this country. In reality a very small proportion are killed and to assume that hares getting killed is the draw of the sport is completely incorrect.

pickarooney

reprazant wrote: »

Certain animals have a weak heart that actually protects them in the wild from being eaten alive. You may call it a serious design fault but it is a far better way to go than to be torn to bits.

I think people like to anthropomorphise the hares a little too much. Small animals get chased and killed and eaten by big ones in their billions every day. I've never been to one of these and wouldn't have any interest, but what's the essential difference between attending a hare coursing event and watching a David Attenborough documentary?

reprazant

pickarooney wrote: »

I think people like to anthropomorphise the hares a little too much. Small animals get chased and killed and eaten by big ones in their billions every day. I've never been to one of these and wouldn't have any interest, but what's the essential difference between attending a hare coursing event and watching a David Attenborough documentary?

Seriously?

Are you saying that there is no difference from watching wild animals going about their daily survival from putting a hare in an enclosed space with two dogs and watch it attempt to escape for its life all for the enjoyment of those looking?

if I got a lamb and a couple of hens and put them in with a group of foxes, is that just real life then? No different from a bit of tv?

Seachmall

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Where's the captive hare? It's called open coursing for a reason.

Do they sit around and hope a hare will randomly appear on the course?

There is no cruelty when it's being run right and to the letter.
Have you even been to a course meet?

There is cruelty. Muzzle or no muzzle the hare takes a lashing from the dogs when caught.


I could come home every evening and punch my dog in the face and as enjoyable as that might seem to some it would still be cruel, even though no blood is drawn and the dog wouldn't die.

Sittingpretty

pickarooney wrote: »

I think people like to anthropomorphise the hares a little too much. Small animals get chased and killed and eaten by big ones in their billions every day. I've never been to one of these and wouldn't have any interest, but what's the essential difference between attending a hare coursing event and watching a David Attenborough documentary?

That's surely not a genuine question is it?

kylith

kevthegaff wrote: »

horseracing is just as cruel but no one says it

Greyhound racing is a horrible sport that leads to the deaths of hundreds of dogs too, but you wouldn't think it by the crowds at the track.


Is hare coursing cruel? Yes it is. Is it any worse, from the hare's point of view, than being chased by a fox or bird of prey? No.

ejmaztec

pickarooney wrote: »

It would point to a serious design fault if animals died of fear when being chased. There'd be no hungry predators in any case.

The problem is more likely to surface when the dogs get up close and personal, muzzle or no muzzle.

Mickeroo

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Is it not the dog's natural instinct to the chase down a hare in the wild?
I know I wouldn't chase a bear.

It was a joke, but the bear would be chasing you of course, would be no fun watching a person chase a bear.

Ilik Urgee

Seachmall wrote: »

Do they sit around and hope a hare will randomly appear on the course?

Same way as you waited for your "pet" dog to move into his kennel?



There is cruelty. Muzzle or no muzzle the hare takes a lashing from the dogs when caught.

That's just it, very few and often none are caught.


I could come home every evening and punch my dog in the face and as enjoyable as that might seem to some it would still be cruel, even though no blood is drawn and the dog wouldn't die.

That's just absurd-the dog would bite your head or similar off in self defense

starlings

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Where's the captive hare? It's called open coursing for a reason.

and people whose instinct is to sympathise with the hare and wonder what cruelty lies behind people's enjoyment of coursing.[/QUOTE]

There is no cruelty when it's being run right and to the letter.
Have you even been to a course meet?[/QUOTE]

you're right, I'm terribly sorry. That should have read:

"a hare that has been captured, or bred in captivity, and is chased around an enclosure."

I see a cruelty in the enjoyment of a contrived chase of a wild animal -right and to the letter. This is where we differ.

No, I haven't been to a course meet, but since my opinion is based on reliable accounts, including yours, I don't think I need to see it for myself.

gobnaitolunacy

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

That's just absurd-the dog would bite your head or similar off in self defense

That would depend on how large the dog is.:P

Seachmall

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Same way as you waited for your "pet" dog to move into his kennel?

What?

That's just it, very few and often none are caught.

The probability of them being caught doesn't have much to do with the cruelty of the game when they are caught.

That's just absurd-the dog would bite your head or similar off in self defense

No he wouldn't. He's a big pussy.

ejmaztec

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Ah yes, we can always believe what's said in Parliament.

I've just developed an uncontrollable urge to yawn.:P

Ilik Urgee

Seachmall wrote: »

What?

There's a name for this defence, you know exactly what I'm saying.



The probability of them being caught doesn't have much to do with the cruelty of the game when they are caught.

There again it's not in the name of cruelty this sport is practiced. Every possible advantage to escape is given the hare, the ultimate aimisn't to mangle the hare to oblivion.


No he wouldn't. He's a big pussy.
Maybe he's a cat?:)

steddyeddy

hyperborean wrote: »

Who is we, and what makes you a better person?

Well I can't speak for bambi but I am a better person than those people because I don't eqaute enjoyment with another being suffering.

Seachmall

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

There's a name for this defence, you know exactly what I'm saying.

You're making no sense. You claimed the hare wasn't a captive when it clearly is. I've no idea how this relates to my dog.

There again it's not in the name of cruelty this sport is practiced. Every possible advantage to escape is given the hare, the ultimate aimisn't to mangle the hare to oblivion.

So if I give my dog 3:1 odds of not getting punched it's no longer cruel when I punch him?

Maybe he's a cat?:)

Too large and he's terrified of mice.

Ilik Urgee

Seachmall wrote: »

You're making no sense. You claimed the hare wasn't a captive when it clearly is. I've no idea how this relates to my dog.

Your dog is being held captive against his free will indefinitely,albeit he'll have a better lifestyle than if left to his own devices,which would be his natural choice.

Seachmall wrote: »

So if I give my dog 3:1 odds of not getting punched it's no longer cruel when I punch him?

The dog won't wait to be punched, same as a hare won't wait to be bowled over.

Seachmall

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Your dog is being held captive against his free will indefinitely,albeit he'll have a better lifestyle than if left to his own devices,which would be his natural choice.

You don't know my dog. He comes home at 5pm every evening. He licks his balls for a few hours, has some grub, and sleeps. He seems happy enough and comes home of his own free will.

And again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

The dog won't wait to be punched, same as a hare won't wait to be bowled over.

So it's not cruel if you give them a choice or a chance?

If I told my dog to run and gave him a head start it wouldn't be cruel if I punched him in the face after catching him?

Good to know.

pickarooney

reprazant wrote: »

Seriously?

Are you saying that there is no difference from watching wild animals going about their daily survival from putting a hare in an enclosed space with two dogs and watch it attempt to escape for its life all for the enjoyment of those looking?

if I got a lamb and a couple of hens and put them in with a group of foxes, is that just real life then? No different from a bit of tv?

I'm not really saying anything just asking the question.

I don't know the specifics of hare coursing but what, from the hare's point of view, is the difference between chased by a greyhound or a fox?

And why is it OK to enjoy watching a lion chase a gazelle and tear it apart but not a dog do the same to a hare?

Seachmall

pickarooney wrote: »

And why is it OK to enjoy watching a lion chase a gazelle and tear it apart but not a dog do the same to a hare?

Because it's an orchestrated event that puts the hare in an unnecessarily cruel situation solely for enjoyment.

reprazant

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm not really saying anything just asking the question.

I don't know the specifics of hare coursing but what, from the hare's point of view, is the difference between chased by a greyhound or a fox?

And why is it OK to enjoy watching a lion chase a gazelle and tear it apart but not a dog do the same to a hare?

Because one is happening without interference from man, and would be happening whether somebody was there or not, while the other is only happening because a man made situation has been created where two attacking animals were chasing a another smaller animal purely for the enjoyment of the crowd.

I am pretty sure you know this and are just be contrary though.

OldNotWIse

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Someone didn't read the article, eh?
How can a greyhound rip a hare to pieces if it's muzzled?
From the article the hares were just mauled, so they got a few smacks off a few dogs, they all lived.

I've no probs with it, big deal it's some dogs chasing some hares and people gamble on it.

A lot of hares are mauled to death or have their spines broken. Some die from shock. Muzzling doesnt take away the cruelty element.

OldNotWIse

kylith wrote: »

Greyhound racing is a horrible sport that leads to the deaths of hundreds of dogs too, but you wouldn't think it by the crowds at the track.


Is hare coursing cruel? Yes it is. Is it any worse, from the hare's point of view, than being chased by a fox or bird of prey? No.

Yup, a lot of people dont know what goes on behind the scenes, or choose wilfull blindness perhaps. We did a demo at harolds X before and there were busloads of impressionable teens being brought to the races. Feck sake. The ones we spoke to were lovely though, and I think we really opened their eyes. The oulfellas tend to be the most hostile. The type that'd shoot ya if you stepped onto their land yargh boy haha

An Bord cGon actually donate money to greyhound rescue each year...helps them sleep at night I guess.

I've cleaned up some of their dirty work in the past (with a happy ending thankfully)

Rabidlamb

Seachmall wrote: »

Not watching a terrified animal get ripped apart for enjoyment makes Bambi a better person.


If it was done to a dog in a garden by one man with a knife we call it animal abuse and demand he be locked up.

If it's done to a hare on a racecourse by 50 men with dogs we call it sport and let it continue.

Yet one man kills 100's of animals everyday & we call it meat production.
Yeah, we got coursing & fox hunting banned, who's for a nice steak ?

Seachmall

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Yet one man kills 100's of animals everyday & we call it meat production.
Yeah, we got coursing & fox hunting banned, who's for a nice steak ?

Killing for food is not the same as inflicting cruelty for enjoyment.

If you want to start a thread on the dire conditions cattle are kept in I'll be happy to rant away in it.

pickarooney

reprazant wrote: »

Because one is happening without interference from man, and would be happening whether somebody was there or not, while the other is only happening because a man made situation has been created where two attacking animals were chasing a another smaller animal purely for the enjoyment of the crowd.

I am pretty sure you know this and are just be contrary though.

Do you think the hare knows the difference though? I don't really see how the circumstances surounding the event change things for it. What's a pleasant or natural death for a hare?

Chuck Stone

Hunter21 wrote: »

they do not realise the money such events bring to local economies

A bit of an old battle in the field will bring money to the local economy too. Why don't ye just kick the living fuck out of each other every now and then and let people bet on that?