Should Paddy Jackson be dropped for the France game?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Can you justify playing McFadden purely for his goal kicking though?

I can't justify Earls under any circumstances so then it becomes Gilroy and Fitz or McFadden and to be honest I see that decision as an incredibly tight call 50/50 so if McFadden is able to come in with kicking a an extra string to his bow then yes I can justify picking McFadden

rchendz92

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Can you justify playing McFadden purely for his goal kicking though?

Should have made myself clearer, I think McFadden has a lot more to him than just his kicking, and his strike rate for Ireland is pretty good. Definately more reasons to play him than just kicking

Gordon Gecko

Fair enough, I've just always seen him as a jack of all trades and lacking the creativity of say Fitz.

P_1

McFadden does the basics properly, has a good boot and kicks his goals well. He doesn't tend to do the more spectacular things.

I suppose you could compare how people look at him and Earls the same way as people looked at Dempsey and Murphy a few years ago.

jm08

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I can't justify Earls under any circumstances so then it becomes Gilroy and Fitz or McFadden and to be honest I see that decision as an incredibly tight call 50/50 so if McFadden is able to come in with kicking a an extra string to his bow then yes I can justify picking McFadden

Not sure any of those can make a linebreak. And I'd think twice about dropping your best attacker for one error early in a match, especially when some far more experienced players made countless errors*. You can't drop them all for that.

(*BOD kicking the ball out (in a grubber effort for Earls to run onto - got the angle completely wrong), BOD throwing out the ball when trying to pass to Gilroy, Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make), Sean O'Brien heading off on his own and not looking for support.)

Jackson will be all the better for the familiarity of the Aviva and two weeks intensive kicking coaching. McFadden hasn't been kicking much this season, so it might be a bit much to ask him to take over now.

siledee

Mere woman here.....but I can recall screaming at the tv for RoG during Sexton's first few games.
I mean he was absolutely sh*te.
But Kidney stuck with him and look how that turned out !

Other things need to be looked at....like those fu*king dancing fairies in the line out.

rchendz92

jm08 wrote: »

Not sure any of those can make a linebreak. And I'd think twice about dropping your best attacker for one error early in a match, especially when some far more experienced players made countless errors*. You can't drop them all for that.

(*BOD kicking the ball out (in a grubber effort for Earls to run onto - got the angle completely wrong), BOD throwing out the ball when trying to pass to Gilroy, Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make), Sean O'Brien heading off on his own and not looking for support.)

Jackson will be all the better for the familiarity of the Aviva and two weeks intensive kicking coaching. McFadden hasn't been kicking much this season, so it might be a bit much to ask him to take over now.

Earls was the most experience back on the field after BOD and Kearney though? he's been round longer than Marshall (obviously) and SOB. Can see where you're coming from but saying it's down to experience and ignoring the fact that he was meant to be one of the ones showing maturity out there is kind of daft. It was a shocking decision not to pass and he should have known better.

tsiehta

Championship hopes are over. Stick with PJ and let him get experience. Drop ROG in favour of Madigan on the bench and maybe bring him on with 20 mins to go.

Start Jackson and put ROG on the bench for the Italy game. Bring him on for his last 10/20 minutes in an Irish jersey to give him a good send off as a great servant of the Irish team for the last 13 years.

Podge_irl

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Putting Fergus McFadden in the back line to handle goal kicking duties is, I think, sheer madness. He's not good enough to force his way into the back line on the strength of his performances at wing or centre and I don't think we should sacrifice players who are better in those positions just so he's there for the shots at goal.

Why not? This is dependent on whether or not Jackson starts again and more importantly whether or not he improves with the boot, but the question is whether you think McFadden would produce a net gain in points by being on the pitch. It also makes far, far more sense to carry a kicker at right wing than it does to carry one at fly half.

jm08

rchendz92 wrote: »

Earls was the most experience back on the field after BOD and Kearney though? he's been round longer than Marshall (obviously) and SOB. Can see where you're coming from but saying it's down to experience and ignoring the fact that he was meant to be one of the ones showing maturity out there is kind of daft. It was a shocking decision not to pass and he should have known better.

I said when "some far more experienced players .... "

I was referring to O'Driscoll & O'Brien in that part (I also forgot to mention O'Driscoll's poor decision not to pass to Earls about 5 metres out - about 5 mins. into the game and which eventually lead to Ireland going for a lineout when they should have let Jackson have a go at kicking 3 pts).

It wasn't a shocking decision not to pass. It was a poor decision not to have gone for the line though - he was a bit indecisive and hesitated. Brian O'Driscoll (who wouldn't have had the pace that far out was well covered by Scottish defenders and would have got turned over anyway).

Greyian

jm08 wrote: »

Not sure any of those can make a linebreak. And I'd think twice about dropping your best attacker for one error early in a match, especially when some far more experienced players made countless errors*. You can't drop them all for that.

(*BOD kicking the ball out (in a grubber effort for Earls to run onto - got the angle completely wrong), BOD throwing out the ball when trying to pass to Gilroy, Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make), Sean O'Brien heading off on his own and not looking for support.)

Jackson will be all the better for the familiarity of the Aviva and two weeks intensive kicking coaching. McFadden hasn't been kicking much this season, so it might be a bit much to ask him to take over now.

Is Earls really our best attacker?

As for the topic, the only reasons for PJ not to be starting (in my opinion) are if Sexton returns and is fully fit, or if Madigan starts. In both cases, I'd have PJ on the bench. Although I feel Madigan is the better player, I think dropping Jackson completely (Sexton returns + Madigan on bench) would be awful his confidence and for depth at outhalf in the long term.

PJ being dropped to allow O'Gara to start would be an absolutely appalling decision, O'Gara (regardless of Sexton's fitness) shouldn't even be appearing in the matchday squad.

Was anyone disappointed with anything outside of Jackon's kicking?

Thought he had a great day tbh, and would probably have been better if he hadn't been carrying the burden of kicking.

Relieve him of them, let McFadden kick (or Kearney from the right) and let him play rugby, not CrossBar Challenge

irishbucsfan

After Ireland decided not to kick their first penalty Phillip Matthews said he had been watching Jackson kicking for in the warm-up and he was kicking extremely well.

I wonder how much those decisions to "protect" him from kicking affected his confidence negatively?

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

After Ireland decided not to kick their first penalty Phillip Matthews said he had been watching Jackson kicking for in the warm-up and he was kicking extremely well.

I wonder how much those decisions to "protect" him from kicking affected his confidence negatively?

Gerry Thornley said much the same, but that during the warm-up he'd been nailing them from the left and the centre but missed a couple from the right; I think all his missed kicks during the game were from the right?

TBH, I think people are reading too much into the decision to kick for the corners. The fact is that when Jackson stepped up to take the kicks at goal, nerves took over. O'Gara had similar wobbles when he was starting out, so had Sexton.

GerM

siledee wrote: »

Mere woman here.....but I can recall screaming at the tv for RoG during Sexton's first few games.
I mean he was absolutely sh*te.
But Kidney stuck with him and look how that turned out !

Was that his man of the match debut or his next cap against S.A. where we won and he scored all the points?

The problem was DK didn't stick with him then and dropped him for the first game of the 6N.

accidentprone1

The decision to kick to the corner was made in this exact game last year too with better results. That could have had an impact on the decision too.

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

Was that his man of the match debut or his next cap against S.A. where we won and he scored all the points?

The problem was DK didn't stick with him then and dropped him for the first game of the 6N.

Agree with you, but let's be fair here..

He injured his arm in January iirc so wasn't fit for the Italy or France games.

Ireland coach Declan Kidney has named the team and replacements play Italy in the opening game of the 2010 RBS 6 Nations Championship...

...Unavailable due to injury:

Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)

irishbucsfan

accidentprone1 wrote: »

The decision to kick to the corner was made in this exact game last year too with better results. That could have had an impact on the decision too.

The decision to go for the corner might have been grand if we hadn't made such a poor decision with how we were going to actually use the lineout!

So many times we had penalties that gave us great field position and then decided to try and throw the ball over Jim Hamilton's head and lost possession in their 22. Our lineout has been a problem for a while now, something needs to be done with our jumpers.

jacothelad

GerM wrote: »

Your European Cup winning full back will be disappointed you've forgotten him!

Simon was a great goal kicker but not a great full back but I did forget him. Michael Kiernan did kick for quite a while and was a lightning quick centre. Was in the Irish Olympic 200m. squad if I recall.

prospect

I think that a lot of the sentiment in this thread is representative of the single major problem with the Irish setup.


(preface: I don't think Jackson had a particularly bad game. Sure his kicking was poor and we should have options all the time in the situation where the first choice kicker lets us down.)


To answer the question of who should start the next game, well for me the answer is simple. Who ever is in form.
If Jackson is in better form than Sexton on a given week, he should start. If Madigan plays better this weekend than Jackson, then Madigan should start.
Jackson cannot be automatically entitled to his place on the squad for fear of hurting his feelings or denting his confidence. ROG shouldn't be even there because of what he achieved in the past.

The priority is to win each game, not to gamble potential victory because of any individual player. The squad should be the selection of whomever is in the best playing form on a given day.

Dealing with mentality and confidence issues is a job for the backroom staff, but if the environment is created where only those who are performing get picked, then the onus is on the remaining players to work hard to earn their spot. Confidence issues won't be as much of a problem because each player will know that if they are not performing the best in their position, they won't play.

I also think this would help with the poor discipline issues. I think that this stems from the fact that some players know they will automatically walk onto the team if they are fit, and therefore they are not as focused on their discipline as much.

Timothy Bryce

Suggestion in the Indo this morning that Sexton may be fit to start the France game.

If this is the case, and Jackson ends up on the bench, could we potentially see the auld 60 minute J10 switcheroo to 12 and PJ to 10?

sjwpjw

jm08: "Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make)"

When I was watching it that is not what I thought. It was off his left hand and it looked like he had to loop it over a defender to get to Gilroy and as LM has said himself there was a defender behind Gilroy so he was trying to put it in front of him but just put it too far. It was IMHO far from being "a simple pass to make" whereas the pass Earls should have made was.

bilston

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Suggestion in the Indo this morning that Sexton may be fit to start the France game.

If this is the case, and Jackson ends up on the bench, could we potentially see the auld 60 minute J10 switcheroo to 12 and PJ to 10?

I'd be worried that Ireland try and rush Sexton back before he needs to come back. In saying that a Sexton-Marshall-O'Driscoll midfield axis would be very tasty.

toomevara

The current dismal 6N campaign is actually a huge opportunity for us. Look, we've all written it off, nobody has any expectations for the remaining games, thus we have a gilt-edged opportunity to overcome the innate conservatism of Irish rugby and give some genuinely exciting new talent a fair go.

Once the hysterics have had a visit from nurse, had their meds and gained some sort of perspective it'll be noted that Irish rugby has alway been like this i.e. a deeply, deeply cyclical beast. Turning around Irish squads has alway been like turning a super-tanker round. Huge, bumpy, fraught transition periods are the norm, largely due to the complete unwillingness of successive Irish coaching set-ups to integrate emerging new talent incrementally. It's never a case of evolution and always a case of revolution, and revolutions are always messy business. As the Frenchies like to say "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose".

We've never been as good as we liked to think we were, especially at the height of all that "golden generation' nonsense but similarly we are now nowhere near as bad as the nervous-nellies and panic merchants would have you believe. Let Jackson retain the ten berth, he had, all things considered a decent game last week. keep him in there for the rest of the tournament, he'll grow and learn from it. Ditto Marshall, ditto Gilroy et al. Let youth have its head. Genuine rugby fans should be prepared to suck up a few defeats snatched from the jaws of victory in this process, but believe it or not, for me, the long term picture for Irish rugby is a relatively good one. Some big names due back, some exciting new players given a taste..believe you me I'd far rather be Irish than Welsh or Scottish...Courage mes enfants and bring on the French, I mean realistically we've no longer anything to lose from this campaign and potentially everything to gain.

andrewdcs

sjwpjw wrote: »

jm08: "Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make)"

When I was watching it that is not what I thought. It was off his left hand and it looked like he had to loop it over a defender to get to Gilroy and as LM has said himself there was a defender behind Gilroy so he was trying to put it in front of him but just put it too far. It was IMHO far from being "a simple pass to make" whereas the pass Earls should have made was.

I think Marshall just took a step too many, making sure he fixed the defender and then was in and on top of him trying to make the tricky pass you describe in front of gilroy (which would always be the case), when he could have made it much easier on himself. Gilroy did have someone on his back so he was also giving him enough time to make a yard on him. Just unfortunate.

Riskymove

prospect wrote: »

To answer the question of who should start the next game, well for me the answer is simple. Who ever is in form.
If Jackson is in better form than Sexton on a given week, he should start. If Madigan plays better this weekend than Jackson, then Madigan should start.

I disagree completely

you make your decisions on a squad based over a period of time, not last weekend

if Sexton is in good form and then has one bad game he should be dropped?

and anyway how do you judge one game? there is the level of opposition, the conditions, how your teammates performed - maybe you just didn't get good ball from your team etc etc

You pick your best players first...then if you think they are suffering from a period of bad form and a change might be better...fine

irishbucsfan

prospect wrote: »

If Jackson is in better form than Sexton on a given week, he should start. If Madigan plays better this weekend than Jackson, then Madigan should start.

Do you think form is like some sort of magic spell that is cast on players by the rugby gods?

sydthebeat

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Suggestion in the Indo this morning that Sexton may be fit to start the France game.

If this is the case, and Jackson ends up on the bench, could we potentially see the auld 60 minute J10 switcheroo to 12 and PJ to 10?

i hope to sweet jesus not to.

The "experiement" with jonny at 12 is an indictment on the lack of development of 12's (at that time). We now have marshall, mc fadden, and Mc sharry that can all play that position. It would not make sense to have that as a ploy if we had a back like madigan on the bench who is more comfortable at 12 than either jackson or sexton.

anyway, PJ should start versus france if jonny is not fit enough.

RoundBox11

Its rediculous the number of people who think that an out halves only role is to place kick. The term seagulls come to mind.
Paddy Jackson played pretty damn good for his debut excluding his missed place kicks. He isn't kicking regularly for Ulster so how is it fair to nail them all on the international stage??? He was solid in defence and got the line moving nicely. NEITHER OF WHICH OGARA WOULD HAVE DONE. The guys 21 he needs time to grow into the jersey.

If best misses throws should he be dropped? If Murray throws a bad pass should he be dropped? If Healy or Ross get beaten in the scrum should they be dropped? What about if SOB misses a tackle?

Next week id have McFadden on the wing => problem solved.

rchendz92

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Its rediculous the number of people who think that an out halves only role is to place kick. The term seagulls come to mind.
Paddy Jackson played pretty damn good for his debut excluding his missed place kicks. He isn't kicking regularly for Ulster so how is it fair to nail them all on the international stage??? He was solid in defence and got the line moving nicely. NEITHER OF WHICH OGARA WOULD HAVE DONE. The guys 21 he needs time to grow into the jersey.

If best misses throws should he be dropped? If Murray throws a bad pass should he be dropped? If Healy or Ross get beaten in the scrum should they be dropped? What about if SOB misses a tackle?

Next week id have McFadden on the wing => problem solved.

Exactly, extremely unfair, one-eyed criticism. A slightly fairer point would be those who are saying Madigan could have done what PJ did and maybe kicked better, but that's not the line that 90% of the public are going with. Either way, PJ deserves at least a bench spot vs. France.

witchgirl26

I thought Jackson had a good game apart from the kicks. That said, they were missed & could have been the difference between our defeat and our win. I don't think a 10's only job is kicking but we have to make sure that there's somebody out there who can because otherwise we are stuffed.
I don't agree that dropping Jackson at this point would destroy his confidence and I don't think that any one player's confidence issues should determine if they get picked. It should be based on what's best for the team as a whole & who could bring in the victory.

dave_o_brien

Before the Scotland game I defended ROG, stating that I still believe he's a good out half who's having a run of bad form. I followed it up by saying that as good and all as I believed him to be, there were 4 better players in the same position, so Kidney should choose someone else. He did, and I thought PJ deserved to be selected over Madigan or Keatley.

He still deserves to retain his place. Mc Fadden should be brought in on the wing in place of Earls, Kearney should kick to the line down the right of the pitch, and Heaslip should be more decisive as captain. Given the enormous change we're going through in personnel, and the fact that we're missing so many front liners, we need to be looking for performances rather than results.

awec

I don't understand this "we shouldn't play McFadden purely for his kicking".

Firstly, McFadden is a decent winger.

Secondly, we did this for years with O'Gara. And we compensated for that.

justsomebloke

I'm surprised at this stage nobody has actually suggested McFadden at 10

part time punk

justsomebloke wrote: »

I'm surprised at this stage nobody has actually suggested McFadden at 10

.. with BOD at 9 and SOB throwing in for the line out

rchendz92

part time punk wrote: »

.. with BOD at 9 and SOB throwing in for the line out

And Tom Court at centre!

Grimebox

awec wrote: »

I don't understand this "we shouldn't play McFadden purely for his kicking".

Firstly, McFadden is a decent winger.

Secondly, we did this for years with O'Gara. And we compensated for that.

He is a decent winger but that's about it. Do we really want a second choice winger starting in our biggest games? Halfpenny does take the kicks for Wales but he is also looking to start at 15 for Lions. McFadden seems like a temporary solution to a permanent problem. I think its a bold move but Madigan should be given a shot come next week. I'm no coach so I can't really comment nor do I understand the damage that will do to Jackson's confidence etc. but I feel it should have been the right call in this first place.

Either that and go with Jackson and hope his kicking form in big games is just a blip

totallegend

Grimebox wrote: »

He is a decent winger but that's about it. Do we really want a second choice winger starting in our biggest games? Halfpenny does take the kicks for Wales but he is also looking to start at 15 for Lions. McFadden seems like a temporary solution to a permanent problem. I think its a bold move but Madigan should be given a shot come next week. I'm no coach so I can't really comment nor do I understand the damage that will do to Jackson's confidence etc. but I feel it should have been the right call in this first place.

Either that and go with Jackson and hope his kicking form in big games is just a blip

If Kidney picks Madigan for the France game, I will change my stance completely and start calling for him to be given a contract extension. There is just no way he'll follow up one massive call (by his standards) with another one. He just won't so there is little point talking about it.

The ideal situation, obviously, is that Sexton is fit. Failing that, you'd hope that Jackson goes out and kicks everything for Ulster on Friday. If neither of those transpire, we then have three options:
1) Keep Jackson and hope for the best re: his kicking
2) Drop Jackson, bring in ROG.
3) Keep Jackson, look elsewhere for kicking

The gap between Earls and McFadden as wingers is a lot narrower than the gap between Jackson and O'Gara for general out-half play, i.e. McFadden is a good winger, O'Gara is not a good out-half.

It would be a fitting end to Kidney's tenure if he did drop Jackson for O'Gara. It would show up the widely-touted fallacy that he's been trying to bring youth through in recent times.

jm08

Greyian wrote: »

Is Earls really our best attacker?

Yes. Last 6Ns (when playing in the centre), he was 2nd in the linebreaking stats for the entire 6Ns across all teams (and that was missing a game).

Luke Marshall & Earls were the only real threats against Scotland (both made a few line breaks).

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

The gap between Earls and McFadden as wingers is a lot narrower than the gap between Jackson and O'Gara for general out-half play, i.e. McFadden is a good winger, O'Gara is not a good out-half.

Since McFadden usually plays on the right wing, isn't Gilroy the one who would need to be dropped to facilitate his inclusion.

Luke Fitz, Zebo, Earls all play on the left wing. Bowe, Gilroy & McFadden on the right wing.

MolBee

jm08 wrote: »

Since McFadden usually plays on the right wing, isn't Gilroy the one who would need to be dropped to facilitate his inclusion.

Luke Fitz, Zebo, Earls all play on the left wing. Bowe, Gilroy & McFadden on the right wing.

Well not neccessarily as Gilroy plays both as well as eachother. Been playing on the left wing all season for Ulster.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The decision to go for the corner might have been grand if we hadn't made such a poor decision with how we were going to actually use the lineout!

So many times we had penalties that gave us great field position and then decided to try and throw the ball over Jim Hamilton's head and lost possession in their 22. Our lineout has been a problem for a while now, something needs to be done with our jumpers.

Spot on.

sjwpjw wrote: »

jm08: "Marshall's forward pass to Gilroy (that was a simple pass to make)"

When I was watching it that is not what I thought. It was off his left hand and it looked like he had to loop it over a defender to get to Gilroy and as LM has said himself there was a defender behind Gilroy so he was trying to put it in front of him but just put it too far. It was IMHO far from being "a simple pass to make" whereas the pass Earls should have made was.

Yes. +1

jm08 wrote: »

Since McFadden usually plays on the right wing, isn't Gilroy the one who would need to be dropped to facilitate his inclusion.

Luke Fitz, Zebo, Earls all play on the left wing. Bowe, Gilroy & McFadden on the right wing.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Since McFadden usually plays on the right wing, isn't Gilroy the one who would need to be dropped to facilitate his inclusion.

Luke Fitz, Zebo, Earls all play on the left wing. Bowe, Gilroy & McFadden on the right wing.

Gilroy scored a try against Scotland. Earls butchered one. In a straight call, there's only one plausible choice.

McFadden has played on the left wing often enough. But if you're worried about it, we could shift Gilroy to the left and put McFadden on the right.

Gilroy played well enough on the left wing against Argentina, wouldn't you agree?

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

Since McFadden usually plays on the right wing, isn't Gilroy the one who would need to be dropped to facilitate his inclusion.

Luke Fitz, Zebo, Earls all play on the left wing. Bowe, Gilroy & McFadden on the right wing.

McFadden plays on both wings.

prospect

Riskymove wrote: »

I disagree completely

you make your decisions on a squad based over a period of time, not last weekend

if Sexton is in good form and then has one bad game he should be dropped?

and anyway how do you judge one game?

'Week' wasn't really the word to use. But for the case of the six nations, a players form from the January should be the ultimate deciding factor.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you think form is like some sort of magic spell that is cast on players by the rugby gods?

Not entirely sure what you are asking.
If you are asking me if I think a players form comes and goes, then the answer is yes.




Players should not be picked on how they have played for us in the past, but rather how they are playing for us now.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Gilroy scored a try against Scotland. Earls butchered one. In a straight call, there's only one plausible choice.

McFadden has played on the left wing often enough. But if you're worried about it, we could shift Gilroy to the left and put McFadden on the right.

Gilroy played well enough on the left wing against Argentina, wouldn't you agree?

How many linebreaks did Gilroy make?

And yes he did very well against Argentina outside Earls who poses a threat so gives others space

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

And yes he did very well against Argentina outside Earls Sexton who poses a threat so gives others space

FYP

irishbucsfan

I'd hope BOD will improve against France. He hasn't really been good enough lately unfortunately. Can't see him as a Lion if he doesn't improve against France or Italy as he'll be in the Amlin after that.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

McFadden plays on both wings.

He might - but why unsettle the whole team who don't get to play together that often to facilitate bringing on a kicker who hasn't been taking kicks this season?

I think Paddy Jackson should be let get on with it. Drop Earls if you think McFadden will do a better job, not because Jackson's goal kicking isn't good enough.

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

FYP

Yeah, but he'd also be playing outside BOD who poses no threat and is renowned for not being able to create space.