Should Paddy Jackson be dropped for the France game?

mfceiling

So let's get this clear now...

Drop PJ for the france game because he missed a few kicks on his debut (despite not kicking for ulster in 9 weeks - and some of these kicks being on the wrong side for a right footed kicker).

We'll gloss over the fact that other than the missed kicks he played fairly well for a 21 year old making his 6N debut in an away game, in a difficult position (there's no hiding place at 10).

So........

We're bringing in madigan now. Another youngster who despite having never played a game in the 6N, and having a limited run in big games for leinster will somehow kick the points for a famous Ireland victory.

Is madigan ready to start? Without knowing any back line calls, any rehearsed moves or had any real involvement in the Ireland set up. Will he suffer from nerves and perhaps fluff a couple of kicks and miss a tackle? If this did happen, will we come on here and jump down his throat - ah, he wasn't ready....sure i knew that would happen....should have stuck with ROG.....


Needs to be a bit of perspective here......PJ is 21 and has been f*cked in at the deep end......sink or swim in the 6N. Sexton is injured, ROG is done, Madigan "should be picked ahead of him".......

Great amount of armchair pundits here who watch a match and see what they want to see or can predict that another player would have made the tackles/kicked the kicks/broke the line/scored the trys, that the player "they don't rate" didn't do.

.ak

dave_o_brien wrote: »

I think that's a bit harsh, no?! He's an exceptional man manager, and has (up until recently) been great at developing a real team spirit*. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he'd bring a structure that would benefit Connacht, and a two year stint there could be good all round. Obviously, not everyone will agree with me.

*not suggesting for a second that Connacht are lacking this.

Aside from player interviews after the GS, what exactly has he done to develop team spirit, or indeed what prowess has he displayed at 'man management'? The BOD dropping was poorly handled - I would say he's not a deft hand at it at all.

legendary.xix

Some of us disagreed with the call to start Jackson against Scotland and the game itself has not changed that opinion. His open play was grand, 6/10 maybe.

Every team needs a kicker no matter what number is on they're back. He didn't do the job. Unless another position can provide the kicker, the number 10 will be expected to nail the kicks.

It'll be interesting to see how Jackson and Madigan fair for their provinces tomorrow night. If the kicks are not going well for Ulster and will the overlook Jackson if a crucial kick needs to be nailed late on?

Grimebox

mfceiling wrote: »

So let's get this clear now...

Drop PJ for the france game because he missed a few kicks on his debut (despite not kicking for ulster in 9 weeks - and some of these kicks being on the wrong side for a right footed kicker).

We'll gloss over the fact that other than the missed kicks he played fairly well for a 21 year old making his 6N debut in an away game, in a difficult position (there's no hiding place at 10).

So........

We're bringing in madigan now. Another youngster who despite having never played a game in the 6N, and having a limited run in big games for leinster will somehow kick the points for a famous Ireland victory.

Is madigan ready to start? Without knowing any back line calls, any rehearsed moves or had any real involvement in the Ireland set up. Will he suffer from nerves and perhaps fluff a couple of kicks and miss a tackle? If this did happen, will we come on here and jump down his throat - ah, he wasn't ready....sure i knew that would happen....should have stuck with ROG.....


Needs to be a bit of perspective here......PJ is 21 and has been f*cked in at the deep end......sink or swim in the 6N. Sexton is injured, ROG is done, Madigan "should be picked ahead of him".......

Great amount of armchair pundits here who watch a match and see what they want to see or can predict that another player would have made the tackles/kicked the kicks/broke the line/scored the trys, that the player "they don't rate" didn't do.

I've always wondered about this whenever any player comes in. Paddy Wallace for the 3rd NZ test comes to mind. It's hard to know how much involvement players have had

Losty Dublin

Taking these one by one...

jm08 wrote: »

1. An outhalf isn't a specialist position? If that is the case why are we discussing it. Stick Sean O'Brien in there.
2. Of course he was - lots of calls though for him to walk out on Kidney because he was destroying 'his legacy'.
3. That didn't stop the criticism though.
4. Maybe ROG won't either.

The exact same things were being said about John Hayes.

1. It is a specialist position but it's easier filled than tight head. And were it not for Mike Ross it still would be a massive issue. Munster also struggled to fill his boots when he retired.
2. Yes he wasn't as capable as he was some years ago but that's par for the course given his age. The fact remains, he was still doing well on the field and Kidney's call was justified until the day Hayes retired.
3. Irish rugby exists on two things. Criticism and more criticism. And not all of it justified.
4. ROG is not close to the player he used to be. End of

Thanks, Leftleg BTW

irishbucsfan

THe decision to stick with Hayes wasn't justified. Starting him instead of Ross in the 2010 AIs was a ludicrously poor decision.

Losty Dublin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

THe decision to stick with Hayes wasn't justified. Starting him instead of Ross in the 2010 AIs was a ludicrously poor decision.

At that stage he should have been stood down, yes but before then there was a strong case that Ross or any alternative at TH wasn't there or ready.

Swiwi

ssaye wrote: »

The majority of your posts just seem to defend Munster players?
Is that like your mission on boards?

jm08 - MunsterMan

or MunsterWoman. You shouldn't assume these things ssaye

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

THe decision to stick with Hayes wasn't justified. Starting him instead of Ross in the 2010 AIs was a ludicrously poor decision.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

At that stage he should have been stood down, yes but before then there was a strong case that Ross or any alternative at TH wasn't there or ready.

You're all jealous of Hayes.

Go on, admit it.

jm08

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Taking these one by one...

1. It is a specialist position but it's easier filled than tight head. And were it not for Mike Ross it still would be a massive issue. Munster also struggled to fill his boots when he retired.

Short memory there. From about 2006 to 2010 there was no outhalf back-up other than Paddy Wallace. Way worse than any situation we've ever had at TH. Tony Buckley might not have been very good, but he did have some very good games. The IRFU messed up Buckley's contract negotiations and had to bring in Botha which put off Andress from coming to Munster then. Munster could have had Andress & Buckley.

1. Yes he wasn't as capable as he was some years ago but that's par for the course given his age. The fact remains, he was still doing well on the field and Kidney's call was justified until the day Hayes retired.

My point is that there were quite saying that he was going to ruin his legacy if he didn't give up playing in exactly the same way they are saying ROG is ruining his legacy.

1. Irish rugby exists on two things. Criticism and more criticism. And not all of it justified.

Very understaded comment that

1. ROG is not close to the player he used to be. End of

Fair enough - but its not going to harm his legacy which is what we are talking about.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Fair enough - but its not going to harm his legacy which is what we are talking about.

It won't.

But it will certainly affect how he's perceived in years to come.

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

answering points 2 + 3
No one was critical of Hayes at the time. It was Kidney who got the flack on this forum for picking a clearly over the hill player in a specialist position

Oh, yes they were. Exactly the same kind of stuff that is being said about O'Gara. Though in fairness, that finale of a penalty try against Leinster in the Magners Final might have shut up a few!

point 4 was answered last Sunday when ROG attempted and failed at what seemed to be a crossfield kick in his own 22 and practically passed the ball to the Scottish attacking line.

I'd be surprised if that was ROG's last hurrah. Seem to remember Humphreys getting to captain the tour to Japan on his retirement from international rugby.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It won't.

But it will certainly affect how he's perceived in years to come.

No it won't. David Humphreys had a fair few shockers before he retired - people only remember the good stuff now. Some even think he was a good defender!

CIARAN_BOYLE

jm08 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that was ROG's last hurrah. Seem to remember Humphreys getting to captain the tour to Japan on his retirement from international rugby.

You can think whatever you want about ROG but if he captains Ireland on the summer tour to North America it will be the worst possible start for the new coach (or more of the same from Kidney if he is still in charge).

There is an urgent need for the OHs other than O'Gara to get international experience and brining O'Gara along will hardly be of any benefit.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that was ROG's last hurrah. Seem to remember Humphreys getting to captain the tour to Japan on his retirement from international rugby.

Oh please, ROG doesn't need any more charity caps.

He's not getting within an arse's roar of that tour.

Also, ROG's legacy is reasonably irrelevant when it comes to discussing Jackson. I would hope a coach didn't give a fiddler's about what he was doing to a guy's legacy.

irishbucsfan

If we are forced to use him, we'd probably be better off if we played with 14 men and just brought ROG out for kicks at goal.

thomond2006

Bring two or three in form 30+ year olds for a Mick O'Driscoll type role in the squad, after that fill it with youngsters.

dave_o_brien

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bring two or three in form 30+ year olds for a Mick O'Driscoll type role in the squad, after that fill it with youngsters.

Thing is, who performs that role in their clubs that are good enough, eligible and fit but not in the squad?

Leinster have Cullen and Jennings. I'd support bringing Cullen in.

Ulster have Wilson and Wallace, neither of whom would be a better alternative than what we have now.

Munster have Coghlan, who is not a better alternative than what we have now.

Connacht have the best of them in McCarthy, but we knew that before he got injured.

I'm sure I'm missing loads, but can't think of who.

totallegend

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Thing is, who performs that role in their clubs that are good enough, eligible and fit but not in the squad?

Leinster have Cullen and Jennings. I'd support bringing Cullen in.

Ulster have Wilson and Wallace, neither of whom would be a better alternative than what we have now.

Munster have Coghlan, who is not a better alternative than what we have now.

Connacht have the best of them in McCarthy, but we knew that before he got injured.

I'm sure I'm missing loads, but can't think of who.

You know that he's talking about the summer tour to USA and Canada, right? So a lot of the more senior guys will be in Australia (hopefully...), Ferris and Wallace will be injured.

I'd say Coughlan will be brought as a sort of mentor figure and for a charity cap (don't mean that in a nasty way), I'd be shocked if Cullen went though.

thomond2006

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Thing is, who performs that role in their clubs that are good enough, eligible and fit but not in the squad?

Leinster have Cullen and Jennings. I'd support bringing Cullen in.

Ulster have Wilson and Wallace, neither of whom would be a better alternative than what we have now.

Munster have Coghlan, who is not a better alternative than what we have now.

Connacht have the best of them in McCarthy, but we knew that before he got injured.

I'm sure I'm missing loads, but can't think of who.

Well a lot depends on who goes on the Lions, Ireland had a large contingent in 2009.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

No it won't. David Humphreys had a fair few shockers before he retired - people only remember the good stuff now. Some even think he was a good defender!

I don't even think David Humphreys thinks he was a good defender!

In saying that he did make one or two decent cover tackles in his time!

bilston

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well a lot depends on who goes on the Lions, Ireland had a large contingent in 2009.

The 2013 contingent is getting smaller by the hour. After the Welsh game you'd have said Healy, Best, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll and Kearney were certainties but you could have made pretty good arguments for Ryan, O'Mahony, Murray, Zebo and Gilroy. Now I'm not sure you could make strong arguments for those guys and as for the certs I'd probably remove Heaslip and Kearney from that list at the minute.

Of course it could all turn round after the French and Italian games.

And just to give relevance to the thread, the smaller the Irish Lions contingent the less opportunity there will be for younger players like Paddy Jackson in the summer (not Jackson himself as Sexton will be a Lion).

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

Oh please, ROG doesn't need any more charity caps.

He's not getting within an arse's roar of that tour.

Also, ROG's legacy is reasonably irrelevant when it comes to discussing Jackson. I would hope a coach didn't give a fiddler's about what he was doing to a guy's legacy.

It would be far from a charity cap. All these tours need a big name player on them for promotion reasons - its probably part of the conditions for the tour. Anyway, who would captain the team, or do you think Jamie Heaslip isn't going to make the Lions?

jm08

bilston wrote: »

I don't even think David Humphreys thinks he was a good defender!

In saying that he did make one or two decent cover tackles in his time!

I know. Just someone here described him as being a good defender last week which made me laugh

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

It would be far from a charity cap. All these tours need a big name player on them for promotion reasons - its probably part of the conditions for the tour. Anyway, who would captain the team, or do you think Jamie Heaslip isn't going to make the Lions?

Completely off topic, but Coughlan seems to be the obvious choice. ROG would be a terrible, terrible choice.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Completely off topic, but Coughlan seems to be the obvious choice. ROG would be a terrible, terrible choice.

Coughlan is uncapped, so he isn't a name. Not sure why an uncapped player would be the obvious choice to captain Ireland (I'm presuming you are suggesting that Heaslip won't be starting if Coughlan is there at 8).

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

Coughlan is uncapped, so he isn't a name. Not sure why an uncapped player would be the obvious choice to captain Ireland (I'm presuming you are suggesting that Heaslip won't be starting if Coughlan is there at 8).

We're talking about the summer tour to USA. All the Irish 'captain' candidates will more than likely travel to Australia; Heaslip, BOD, Best, Sexton.

What candidates are we left with? If POC is fit then fair enough, but other than that I'd have Coughlan. He got a chance to captain at the Wolfhounds, and seemed to do a decent job.

DOC's another name to consider, but he's never really nominated himself as Captain material and I just couldn't see it tbh.

sydthebeat

lets not forget DOC was a lions captain, as was ROG.

Rory Best captained the tour in '09 and wouldnt have been what you would consider a "big name" at the time.

dave_o_brien

totallegend wrote: »

You know that he's talking about the summer tour to USA and Canada, right?

I did not know that. Thank you!

Grimebox

sydthebeat wrote: »

lets not forget DOC was a lions captain, as was ROG.

Rory Best captained the tour in '09 and wouldnt have been what you would consider a "big name" at the time.

What parallel universe are you living in

postitnote

No, Paddy Jackson should not be dropped for the France game.

There, that's the thread back on topic.

PAULWATSON

Jacko taking the kicking duties off Ruan tonight :eek:

What a farce, although we all know who will get the nod come the big games in the Heino.

postitnote

Here's the thing, Ruan has a lot longer range than Paddy. I'd imagine we'll still see the odd 50+ effort from Ruan tonight though.

But I see what you're getting at.

In fact, I might consider changing my opinion.

Ireland's season is over, Ulster's is looking more and more in the balance. Drop all the Ulster players from the Irish squad and let them get Ulster firing again, I see this as being mutually beneficial for both the team and the individuals.

Ireland hat off and shelved, Ulster hat firmly on in it's place!

bilston

PAULWATSON wrote: »

Jacko taking the kicking duties off Ruan tonight :eek:

What a farce, although we all know who will get the nod come the big games in the Heino.

Why is it a farce? Pienaar's kicking percentages over the last few games haven't been wonderful anyway.

ssaye

postitnote wrote: »

Here's the thing, Ruan has a lot longer range than Paddy. I'd imagine we'll still see the odd 50+ effort from Ruan tonight though.

But I see what you're getting at.

In fact, I might consider changing my opinion.

Ireland's season is over, Ulster's is looking more and more in the balance. Drop all the Ulster players from the Irish squad and let them get Ulster firing again, I see this as being mutually beneficial for both the team and the individuals.

Ireland hat off and shelved, Ulster hat firmly on in it's place!

Provinces provide for the national team not the other way around. You cant have your cake and eat it. Ulster fans wanted their players called up for the National side and now that's happened want them back.

Ulster need to develop a squad that can compete when a few players leave for Ireland. So far this season its looking like Ulster have an excellent starting 15 but a very average extended squad.

sjwpjw

ssaye - chilax - I think he is only messing

PAULWATSON

bilston wrote: »

Why is it a farce? Pienaar's kicking percentages over the last few games haven't been wonderful anyway.

They have been trying this on and off for a good while now. Jacko taking the normal stuff and Ruan applying his bigger boot to the long range. Can't recall the game off hand, before Christmas. Paddy was all over the show kicked one of three, tight game. Ruan took over everything, 100% kick success and Ulster took the game.

This is messing everyone about, ROG feels he has to perform miracle stuff to try and grab some attention when sprung from the bench. Ruan can't get any momentum with all the uncertainty.

PJ is not a goal kicker, end of.

rchendz92

PAULWATSON wrote: »

They have been trying this on and off for a good while now. Jacko taking the normal stuff and Ruan applying his bigger boot to the long range. Can't recall the game off hand, before Christmas. Paddy was all over the show kicked one of three, tight game. Ruan took over everything, 100% kick success and Ulster took the game.

PJ is not a goal kicker, end of.

I remember people saying Sexton wasn't a kicker a few years ago. Give him some time ffs

sydthebeat

Grimebox wrote: »

What parallel universe are you living in

whats your problem?

PAULWATSON

rchendz92 wrote: »

I remember people saying Sexton wasn't a kicker a few years ago. Give him some time ffs

As hooky said, he has never been a decent goal kicker, that won't change now. Look at the quality of his striking, it is not that he is missing with good solid strikes that are off line, he is totally slicing most of his efforts.

leeroybrown

PAULWATSON wrote: »

As hooky said, he has never been a decent goal kicker, that won't change now. Look at the quality of his striking, it is not that he is missing with good solid strikes that are off line, he is totally slicing most of his efforts.

Hooky talks an awful lot of rubbish. I do think however that the Ulster kicking coach doesn't seem to help matters with any young players who come through their system and that Jackson will really need to work on his.

rchendz92 wrote: »

I remember people saying Sexton wasn't a kicker a few years ago. Give him some time ffs

Sexton couldn't kick **** off a rope when he was in his early 20s and look at the player he is today.

Paulw

Jackson is a great young player. He is still learning his trade. His kicking is average. But, that can be improved. He needs the gametime and experience.

But, at International level, he is not there yet.

The option could be to have him in as 10 for Ireland, but have Madigan or McFadden in at 12, and let them take more of the kicks.

ROG could be dropped from the bench, if the right cover is there.

PAULWATSON

leeroybrown wrote: »

Hooky talks an awful lot of rubbish. I do think however that the Ulster kicking coach doesn't seem to help matters with any young players who come through their system and that Jackson will really need to work on his.


Sexton couldn't kick **** off a rope when he was in his early 20s and look at the player he is today.

Well the six nations is over for us, PJ should be given a go for the last two games.

Same problem in the premier league, players are so worried about being dropped. DK should tell him that he is getting the next few games, chill out and see what happens.

postitnote

sjwpjw wrote: »

ssaye - chilax - I think he is only messing

I should have used some smilies.
Ireland 1, Ulster 2. That's the order.

But for the love of god start feeding young players through then. And not to hold tackle bags. You want experience in the squad? Let the elder members hold tackle bags, you know, the ones that won't be at the next World Cup.

Is there anything to be said for having rog as water boy? A la Jenkins at Wales etc Surely that is where experience would be useful?

CIARAN_BOYLE

postitnote wrote: »

I should have used some smilies.
Ireland 1, Ulster 2. That's the order.

But for the love of god start feeding young players through then. And not to hold tackle bags. You want experience in the squad? Let the elder members hold tackle bags, you know, the ones that won't be at the next World Cup.

Is there anything to be said for having rog as water boy? A la Jenkins at Wales etc Surely that is where experience would be useful?

Jenkins is a prop and can carry a lot more water than ROG

dave_o_brien

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Jenkins is a prop and can carry a lot more water than ROG

The other one Jenkins. He's tiny and could never tackle either.

Grimebox

sydthebeat wrote: »

whats your problem?

Neither ROG, DOC nor Best captained the lions. I must be misunderstanding you

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donncha_O'Callaghan#International_career
"...and captained the Lions against the Southern Kings on the 16 June in their final tour match before the first Test against South Africa"

I think I know what you mean now

sydthebeat

Grimebox wrote: »

Neither ROG, DOC nor Best captained the lions. I must be misunderstanding you

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donncha_O'Callaghan#International_career
"...and captained the Lions against the Southern Kings on the 16 June in their final tour match before the first Test against South Africa"

I think I know what you mean now

ROG and DOC both captained the Lions...

ok, they weren't test games, but still its a lions captaincy.

I never said that BEST did

Grimebox

PAULWATSON wrote: »

Well the six nations is over for us, PJ should be given a go for the last two games.

Same problem in the premier league, players are so worried about being dropped. DK should tell him that he is getting the next few games, chill out and see what happens.

Every game matters in the 6 nations. By your logic none of the AI's matter either since there is nothing to win at the end of it all.

PAULWATSON

Grimebox wrote: »

By your logic none of the AI's matter either since there is nothing to win at the end of it all.

I don't think they matter, always struck me as a marketing exercise.