Willie Frazer arrested- Jamie on the run.

SoulandForm

Willie Frazer has elements of George Seawright about him in that outside of Loyalism he comes across as a totally over the top comical character, though like Seawright he could well turn out to be a lot more sinister than he first appeared (Seawright who infamously advocated incinerating Roman Catholics and their Priests later turned out to a member of a Loyalist hit squad). He was the leading figure behind the fleg protests and has been arrested on Public Order grounds over them. I have two problems with this- number one that it sets a dangerous precedent, number two that Jim Dowson who has far more intelligence and organizational ability as well as being a much more powerful personality has been left out of the arrests.

http://www.u.tv/News/Flag-protests-not-a-crime-Bryson/d01f7595-5f69-4a9c-8f35-9a5b2db36764

SoulandForm

I have to say that I found Jamie calling Northern Ireland a fascist state rather amusing.

guttenberg

They seek him here, they seek him there, they seek wee Jamie everywhere, is he at home? is he up a tree? no there is Jamie on UTV!

Gotta love Mr Bryson, he called the Sunday World a lying biased rag for printing that only 30 odd protestors turned up to the police station like he asked on saturday(there is numerous photos showing that it is an accurate figure).

charlemont

Supposedly Jamie is in Dundalk. Ah Its comical stuff alright..

SoulandForm

http://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfWilliamFrazer?ref=ts&fref=ts

"Barrie Halliday: It appears that IRA man Gerry Kelly now runs the PSNI. Willie was arrested this morning and taken away, two PSNI search teams spent almost 5 hours taking his home apart. All the information Willie had on the IRA murders, smuggling and fraud has been taken away. This information on paper, hard drives and memory sticks was accumulated over years from a variety of sources and it is all now in the hands of the PSNI. They murdered his father, they murdered another 4 members of his family, they tried to frame him and wrecked the victims group he represented, they repeatedly sent him death threats and 2 weeks ago again attacked his home. Now in a last desperate attempt to silence him the PSNI have arrested him under the guise of organising peaceful protests. Could it be they wanted all his information on murderers, the DARD fraud and the horse meant scandal? Willie will refuse bail and has identified himself to the PSNI as Patrick Malachy McParland and is claiming responsibility for the murder of 10 innocent Protestants at Kingsmill on 5 January 1976 and added that paper work containing evidence of this is in his house. Willie also added that the protest do not belong to him, they are the peoples so interning him wont make any difference, he asked me to pass on that he is in good spirits and has no intention of submitting to this tyranny."

SoulandForm

In all seriousness though the way that Willie Frazer continually uses the Kingsmill massacre is pretty sickening.

Thomas_I

SoulandForm wrote: »

I have to say that I found Jamie calling Northern Ireland a fascist state rather amusing.

Extracts from the linked article on the U-TV webside:

The law of the country at this time is absolutely ridiculous. This is political policing and there is no way I'll be helping the PSNI in this fascist state.
Jamie Bryson

"I don't recognise the Parades Commission, so I wouldn't be notifying them of anything anyway. I view it as civil disobedience," he said.
"Martin Luther King was technically breaking the law, but he had to stand up for what he believed in, for his rights and for his country, and people don't view him as a criminal."

It shows more about his own mindset which may be closer to what he´s accusing the PSNI because the PSNI itself actually isn´t. I´d dare say that such attitudes may also come from Frazer´s influence, because when Frazer was at Bryson´s age himself, the RUC and the circumstances then were more likely to be described as "fascist".

Interesting that some people are going to take prominent people from the civil rights movement into their attempt for "justify" their actions when it suits them. Martin Luther King was not someone concerned about "Flags" he was fighting for what the Stormont Regime was equally oppressing towards the Irish in NI, simply "Civil Rights".

Meanwhile, PSNI Chief Constable Matt Baggott has said that the laws surrounding parades that are not notified may need to be reviewed - to provide more of a deterrent against illegal protests.

"I remain concerned that the current Public Processions Act does not provide sufficient deterrence to those breaking the law," he said.
"The required standard of proof to convict is high and the Act would benefit from review."

That´s the law and it has to be obeyed. The longer Bryson is on the run, the worse he makes it for himself. The PSNI is just carrying out their duty, that´s not political policing.

It´s good to see that the PSNI is doing their job correctly and what remains to be altered on the Public Processions Act is left to the NI Assembly as the legislative body. The damage these protests have done are probably too serious as that he and Frazer could get away with it.

"Fascist State", Bryson has no clue what he´s talking about, but Frazer, he knows very well! But both of them, are wrong.

everdead.ie

I do wonder about Fraizer the Gardai reported to the Smithwick Tribunal that they believed he was a member of the Red handed Commandos.

There were also reports that PSNI have previously stopped him in his car and searched it, I wonder if they were looking for something in particular they were looking for in his house.

guttenberg

No doubt Mr Frazer will claim that all his evidence revealing everything the IRA has been up to has been seized by the police and won't be returned. I heard there was protests outside the police station he was being held in? was one held for everyone else that was arrested over the protests or why is he so special?

GRMA

Jaime won't surrender himself and Willie won't leave the station, you really couldnt make this up

Leaving aside the serious aspect to the fleg protests this last few months have been hilarious, just as I thought things were dying down and I wouldnt need any more popcorn the "Orange Pimpernel" comes along!

SoulandForm

http://www.facebook.com/loyalistprotestupdaterpart2


"On behalf of Jamie Bryson 'Thanks everyone for the amazing support, you are are all wonderful people who I have been honoured to stand with. Many of us may have our differences but we are all protestant people at the end of it and will all stand united. The PSNIRA tried to appease Sinn Fein by arresting me and Wille, but it has backfired badly. They have now wasted thousands of tax payers money chasing a law abiding British citizen on behalf of the IRA. I will not hand myself in to this fascist state, would the Jews have volunteered themselves to the Nazis with the benefit of hindsight? Il take a lesson from history on that one. I am ashamed of our so called police force who have now emancipated themselves from the law abiding Protestant people. I am proud of every single action I have taken in defence of our homeland and to borrow the words of a famous song 'I will go to my grave before I'll be a slave'."

super_furry

Jamie Bryson sounds like a broken hoover.

guttenberg

Farewell Thomas_I! So the boy wonder has finally been caught by the PSNI, here's hoping Jim Dowson is next!

SoulandForm

Where did the idea of Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish being drab and boring come from? In many ways we are probably have the most colourful and eccentric characters in the British Isles.

Apparently Jamie is now on hunger strike.

guttenberg

SoulandForm wrote: »

Where did the idea of Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish being drab and boring come from? In many ways we are probably have the most colourful and eccentric characters in the British Isles.

Apparently Jamie is now on hunger strike.

On the same date that Bobby Sands went on hunger strike? :eek: Gerry Kelly tweeted that he was planning to give Jamie some tips for being on the run but he was too late:D

NIMAN

PSNIRA, gotta love that new one.

SoulandForm

guttenberg wrote: »

On the same date that Bobby Sands went on hunger strike? :eek: Gerry Kelly tweeted that he was planning to give Jamie some tips for being on the run but he was too late:D

Both Willie and Jamie hate the British state (as bad as it is comparing it to the Third Reich is just going a tad to far)- they just hate Cafalicks more. If they ever stopped being sectarian they are much more likely to end up in Republican Sinn Fein than they are the Alliance or the SDLP.

Blackbush1905

Sir William Frazer, Ulsters Nelson Mandela being held hostage by PSNIRA terrorists !!!

SoulandForm

All jokes aside these arrests have set a precedent that could be used against Republicans or progressive activists generally in the future. Does Jamie realize that you can do permanent damage to yourself with hunger strikes? Its pretty sad to watch him destroy his life in front of the eyes of everyone. When he comes to himself he will probably have to leave the country for shame.

Blackbush1905

SoulandForm wrote: »

All jokes aside these arrests have set a precedent that could be used against Republicans or progressive activists generally in the future. Does Jamie realize that you can do permanent damage to yourself with hunger strikes? Its pretty sad to watch him destroy his life in front of the eyes of everyone. When he comes to himself he will probably have to leave the country for shame.

If it can be used against republicans then thats a good thing!! Hopefully marty and big chin bigot conor murphy are the next to get lifted and remanded over illegal march in south armagh.

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

If it can be used against republicans then thats a good thing!! Hopefully marty and big chin bigot conor murphy are the next to get lifted and remanded over illegal march in south armagh.

If you arrested every nutter and bigot in Northern Ireland how many people would be in jail?

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

If you arrested every nutter and bigot in Northern Ireland how many people would be in jail?

For every nutter and bigot you arrest that's one less on the street.

Blackbush1905

SoulandForm wrote: »

If you arrested every nutter and bigot in Northern Ireland how many people would be in jail?

Who cares its only a matter of time before the peace process falls apart anyway, its a farce from start to finish. Now that willie and bryson have been locked up that means no get out of jail free card for shinners next time they step out of line the PSNI will have no choice but to act, lets start with marty and murphy for illegal march in commemoration of terrorist organisation in south armagh.

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Who cares its only a matter of time before the peace process falls apart anyway, its a farce from start to finish. Now that willie and bryson have been locked up that means no get out of jail free card for shinners next time they step out of line the PSNI will have no choice but to act, lets start with marty and murphy for illegal march in commemoration of terrorist organisation in south armagh.

And the PSNI will always have no choice but to allow CNRs to block the roads during the marching season...:p

The high ranking Shinners are much more in the pocket of the British state than Willie and Jamie- so the chances of them been gone after for illegal parades particularly in areas where they are almost universally supported is basically nil at the moment.

Blackbush1905

If I was a shinner i'd get myself down to the high court with the fleg protesters and demand the immediate release of wullie and bryson, as souland said this has set a precedent and people will be watching very closely, sinn fein and republicans wont be able to worm their way out like they used to!

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

If I was a shinner i'd get myself down to the high court with the fleg protesters and demand the immediate release of wullie and bryson, as souland said this has set a precedent and people will be watching very closely, sinn fein and republicans wont be able to worm their way out like they used to!

The fact is that the DUP finds power sharing into eternity a better choice than telling their voters not to use contraception. Plus they really dont want direct rule with a lot of them of being Protestant Ulster patriots as opposed to British Unionists. This means that they have a natural alliance with Sinn Fein who are far from being revolutionary separatists anymore, infact Plaid Cymru is much more radical than they are- though its not something that they want to shout to loudly about.

Blackbush1905

SoulandForm wrote: »

And the PSNI will always have no choice but to allow CNRs to block the roads during the marching season...:p

The high ranking Shinners are much more in the pocket of the British state than Willie and Jamie- so the chances of them been gone after for illegal parades particularly in areas where they are almost universally supported is basically nil at the moment.

The PSNI wont go after the sinn fein big wigs, but the ex provo goons, the likes of sean kelly and the robert mccartney murder gang( which sinn fein have covered up and protected from the start). Interesting timing that a top republican appeared in court today in connection with that murder just as mandela and martin luther bryson were getting sent down, they might have actually been some use after all. I woudn't be surprised if the peelers have been waiting for the right moment to move on the mccartney murderers and this was it.

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

The PSNI wont go after the sinn fein big wigs, but the ex provo goons, the likes of sean kelly and the robert mccartney murder gang( which sinn fein have covered up and protected from the start). Interesting timing that a top republican appeared in court today in connection with that murder just as mandela and martin luther bryson were getting sent down, they might have actually been some use after all. I woudn't be surprised if the peelers have been waiting for the right moment to move on the mccartney murderers and this was it.

The timing of those provos getting a slap on the wrist was obviously a clumsy attempt on the part of Whitehall to look even handed. While they will come down like a ton of bricks on Anti-GFA Republicans they have let "provo goons" as you put it literally get away with murder. As long as SF sing from the hymn sheet they are safe- Unionists with a capital U might not like this but they are now part of the establishment in "Our Wee Country".

jazz101

God this may be unrelated but I had a look at the Kindle sample of Bryson's novel and I'd say I was a better writer at the age of nine. It's comically bad.

Go forth, my son, and protect your fleg!

Bertie Woot

SoulandForm wrote: »

The timing of those provos getting a slap on the wrist was obviously a clumsy attempt on the part of Whitehall to look even handed. While they will come down like a ton of bricks on Anti-GFA Republicans they have let "provo goons" as you put it literally get away with murder. As long as SF sing from the hymn sheet they are safe- Unionists with a capital U might not like this but they are now part of the establishment in "Our Wee Country".

Part of the establishment they may be, but unlike the Unionists, SF's participation in Stormont is strategy and a means to an end, whereas for Unionists, it is an end in itself. Jamie Bryson, although only 23, looks set to become Ulster's bright new hope, at least among the Protestant working class flag protesters. Educated Prods, and indeed people in general, can see that he has plenty of spirit, and although he can put two words together, which is more than can be said for a lot of Unionists, he isn't exactly the most articulate kid on the block ("Yousins"). He has a certain manner and mode of expression, and there is real passion there, but he needs to slow the **** down and articulate his thoughts in a manner which shall lend him some credibility among people outside of the Newtownards Road area.

jazz101

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Part of the establishment they may be, but unlike the Unionists, SF's participation in Stormont is strategy and a means to an end, whereas for Unionists, it is an end in itself. Jamie Bryson, although only 23, looks set to become Ulster's bright new hope, at least among the Protestant working class flag protesters. Educated Prods, and indeed people in general, can see that he has plenty of spirit, and although he can put two words together, which is more than can be said for a lot of Unionists, he isn't exactly the most articulate kid on the block ("Yousins"). He has a certain manner and mode of expression, and there is real passion there, but he needs to slow the **** down and articulate his thoughts in a manner which shall lend him some credibility among people outside of the Newtownards Road area.

You're having us on. You just have to be. That amadán isn't fit to be the voice of a Facebook page let alone the collective working class protestant populace.

SoulandForm

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Jamie Bryson, although only 23, looks set to become Ulster's bright new hope, at least among the Protestant working class flag protesters. Educated Prods, and indeed people in general, can see that he has plenty of spirit, and although he can put two words together, which is more than can be said for a lot of Unionists, he isn't exactly the most articulate kid on the block ("Yousins"). He has a certain manner and mode of expression, and there is real passion there, but he needs to slow the **** down and articulate his thoughts in a manner which shall lend him some credibility among people outside of the Newtownards Road area.

You are right in that he does come across as pure-hearted and that is very appealing, especially in this day and age, that said he wants to a return to direct rule- as much as I dislike SF and the DUP they do shield Northern Ireland as best they can from London Tories.

everdead.ie

SoulandForm wrote: »

You are right in that he does come across as pure-hearted and that is very appealing, especially in this day and age, that said he wants to a return to direct rule- as much as I dislike SF and the DUP they do shield Northern Ireland as best they can from London Tories.

Indeed I would fear for the people of Northern Ireland if they were to become ruled from London as the public service would(and probably should) shrink massively causing increased poverty in an area already struggling.

I think more tax power needs to be given to the assembly to reduce taxs on business move people slowly from the public service to the private serice with tax incentives and reskilling courses.

I also hope though that the republic could help when we get our own deficit under control especially the elderly need to be protected as the state pension is very little especially as fuel during the winter is getting so expensive and state pensions etc staying the same.

Bertie Woot

jazz101 wrote: »

You're having us on. You just have to be. That amadán isn't fit to be the voice of a Facebook page let alone the collective working class protestant populace.

He's only 23. He's no Ian Paisley, and not a David Ervine either, but the wee fella has cahooneys. The Protestant working class have little to no political leadership atm. The DUP are snogging SF in bed (a love affair I approve of, as I'd rather seem them kiss and fondle than trade bullets), and the UUP mostly represent the Unionist middle class and have been very scathing of the flag protesters. This young man has come out of nowhere and to the fore, and whilst he definitely needs to polish up his act, he's doing his best for what he believes is right.

I am in favour of a united Ireland and even I think it was very wrong for SF, the SDLP and Alliance to tear down the flag in an attempt to make Belfast city centre a more "neutral" environment. It was a democratic decision, but a supremely foolish one. NI, whether we like it or not, is currently a part of the UK, and it should therefore be permitted to have the flag of the UK at the city hall in Belfast 24/7, 365 days a year. Considering that many young Catholics have surprisingly embraced the Northern Irish identity and want to remain in the UK, I really don't see what the problem is.

When the people of NI vote in favour of a United Ireland, I'll embrace that, as I am a democrat, and shall not then object to the removal of the Union flag and see it replaced with the Irish tricolour, or a new flag for Ireland if that be the case. What SF have done is hypocritically said "We respect the British Ulster Unionist identity" on one hand, and then tore down the most potent and obvious symbol of British Unionist identity with the other. Not a shrewd move at all, as has been witnessed by constant protests.

SoulandForm wrote: »

You are right in that he does come across as pure-hearted and that is very appealing, especially in this day and age, that said he wants to a return to direct rule- as much as I dislike SF and the DUP they do shield Northern Ireland as best they can from London Tories.

Direct rule would be retrograde step. After all we've been through, we finally have devolution and Ulster's two main adversaries have amazingly been keeping it together, co-operating, and administering the devolved assembly. I never thought I would see that in my lifetime. I understand the Unionist working class feel left out in the cold, marginalised and alienated, but that is as much about social class as political affiliation. The Nationalist working class were not only marginalised, isolated and alienated for years, but also actively discriminated against, and parts of Nationalist working class West Belfast are still on the margins.

Throughout the conflict I always maintained that it was simply working class people killing other working class people for a piece of coloured rag. The Republican/Nationalist working class has a lot more in common with working class Loyalists than they do with their middle class counterparts. The same applies to Loyalism. One of the reasons that the Shinners and the DUP have been able to make it work, is that they are parties which by and large have represented working class Unionists and working class Nationalists, and they recognise that both parties to the conflict deserve a better future than the past. But the DUP definitely needs to get more in contact with its grass roots.

The English view NI as a "nuisance state", a "waste of English tax-payer's money", and want nothing more than to see Irish unification and the exit of NI from the UK. I'd like nothing more than to give them what they want, as Ulster has been foolishly loyal to ungrateful Britain for too long.

SoulandForm

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I am in favour of a united Ireland and even I think it was very wrong for SF, the SDLP and Alliance to tear down the flag in an attempt to make Belfast city centre a more "neutral" environment. It was a democratic decision, but a supremely foolish one. NI, whether we like it or not, is currently a part of the UK, and it should therefore be permitted to have the flag of the UK at the city hall in Belfast 24/7, 365 days a year. Considering that many young Catholics have surprisingly embraced the Northern Irish identity and want to remain in the UK, I really don't see what the problem is.

When the people of NI vote in favour of a United Ireland, I'll embrace that, as I am a democrat, and shall not then object to the removal of the Union flag and see it replaced with the Irish tricolour, or a new flag for Ireland if that be the case. What SF have done is hypocritically said "We respect the British Ulster Unionist identity" on one hand, and then tore down the most potent and obvious symbol of British Unionist identity with the other. Not a shrewd move at all, as has been witnessed by constant protests.

Is the first thing I underlined true though, do you in your ordinary life know young people from RC backgrounds who identify with the Union Jack and the Ulster banner? Even before partition Ulster had pretty big differences with the south sociologically and it has had a different history- so there is a Northern Ireland identity but it doesnt necessarily mean support for the union. Also take into consideration that militant republicans did not return the census, the fact of people putting down what they think the authorities or whoever is reading them wants to hear and the possibility of lying by the British state. I dont believe for a moment that the overwhelming majority of the Nationalist population in Belfast did not support the flag coming down.

If Sinn Fein were smart they would be pushing Ulster Scot/Scotch Irish identity and achievements as something of value within a wider celtic context. They would be pointing out the widespread resentment felt at the butchery of the 36 th in WWI and the way they were used in that battle by the English incredibly cynically as just throw aways (which was an important factor in conscription not being introduced into Northern Ireland during WWII). They arent though and its laughable when they say that they respect "British Unionist culture"- its something Plaid Cmyru would never come out with.

Fooker

Bryson is a joke. He hasn't a notion. There's pictures of him with a 1798 flag and equally a UVF flag. NI needs less of these sectarian bigots who claim "persecution".

For those who suggest the PSNI are coming down hard on the protestors, it should have been clamped down on long ago. There were more people arrested during the St. Patrick's day shenanigans in the holylands a few years ago.

Also, it's sickening to see the DUP/UUP using this to try and widen the polarisation of the two communities. They know as long as it's just going to be the tribalist vote, the unionist vote is secure.

gallag

Bertie Woot wrote: »

and although he can put two words together, which is more than can be said for a lot of Unionists.

Do you believe unionists have a higher percentage of idiots compared to different sections of society with differing political aspirations? Quite a bigoted statment.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Do you believe unionists have a higher percentage of idiots compared to different sections of society with differing political aspirations?

Idiots is a bit OTT but there's a problem with educational underachievement in working class Protestant (WCP) areas.

one in 10 young Protestants from a socially disadvantaged background currently attending school have the opportunity to go to university - compared to one in five for young Catholics of a similar background.

www.u.tv/News

That's not good for young WCP's or the rest of the people in the north. Perhaps the well heeled Unionists in the DUP/UUP should concentrate on getting young WCP's into training and education rather than winding them up over flags and marching.

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Idiots is a bit OTT but there's a problem with educational underachievement in working class Protestant (WCP) areas.



That's not good for young WCP's or the rest of the people in the north. Perhaps the well heeled Unionists in the DUP/UUP should concentrate on getting young WCP's into training and education rather than winding them up over flags and marching.

I said unionists, not religion based, also that artical has a lot of variables, for example it states more Catholic boys fail to achieve 5 gcse grades. Its hardly proof that wanting to remain in the union means you have a lower iq.

"While the report from the working group highlights the issues affecting Protestant boys, statistics for 2008/09 show that more Catholic boys did not achieve five good GCSE's - 2,608 Catholic boys compared to 2,363 Protestant boys.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Its hardly proof that wanting to remain in the union means you have a lower iq.

I agree.

I'm presuming that the Unionists Bertie Woot was alluding to were the ones involved in the fleg protests?

Or are they not Unionists?

Fooker

gallag wrote: »

I said unionists, not religion based, also that artical has a lot of variables, for example it states more Catholic boys fail to achieve 5 gcse grades. Its hardly proof that wanting to remain in the union means you have a lower iq.

"While the report from the working group highlights the issues affecting Protestant boys, statistics for 2008/09 show that more Catholic boys did not achieve five good GCSE's - 2,608 Catholic boys compared to 2,363 Protestant boys.

Wouldn't that pretty much make it equal in terms of percentage, since there are more Catholic boys at that age?

Blackbush1905

Its the attitude towards education in the working class protestant/loyalist areas thats a big problem, there's a bit of reverse snobbery towards people from their own areas who go into higher education/university and even those who go into the army and RAF to get out of the rut/ lifestyle/area they come from.

Bertie Woot

SoulandForm wrote: »

Is the first thing I underlined true though, do you in your ordinary life know young people from RC backgrounds who identify with the Union Jack and the Ulster banner? Even before partition Ulster had pretty big differences with the south sociologically and it has had a different history- so there is a Northern Ireland identity but it doesnt necessarily mean support for the union. Also take into consideration that militant republicans did not return the census, the fact of people putting down what they think the authorities or whoever is reading them wants to hear and the possibility of lying by the British state. I dont believe for a moment that the overwhelming majority of the Nationalist population in Belfast did not support the flag coming down.

Well, we keep hearing about how young Catholics are embracing the Northern Irish identity, and that no doubt is due to young educated middle class and socially aspirational Catholics in NI recognising the advantages of sustaining the union with GB in terms of career prospects. Admittedly, there are few if any statistics on this phenomenon, and I would firmly suspect that this is a notion being trumpeted exclusively by the Unionist parties, DUP in particular, to get more Catholics on board. The fact is, many Nationalists in NI have lost their drive for a united Ireland in their lifetime, and this is mirrored by the total lack of interest in the Republic, with most ROI citizens viewing unification as a financial burden which they cannot afford. The lack of impetus for unification both North and South is disappointing to say the least, but I still think that underneath this malaise the will is still there, just fatigued. Nationalists in the north are just not playing their hand very cleverly. You don't get Unionism on board the UI express by tearing down their flag.

If Sinn Fein were smart they would be pushing Ulster Scot/Scotch Irish identity and achievements as something of value within a wider celtic context. They would be pointing out the widespread resentment felt at the butchery of the 36 th in WWI and the way they were used in that battle by the English incredibly cynically as just throw aways (which was an important factor in conscription not being introduced into Northern Ireland during WWII). They arent though and its laughable when they say that they respect "British Unionist culture"- its something Plaid Cmyru would never come out with.

I don't think SF take much interest in Ulster-Scots culture and heritage, other than to occasionally pay lip service to the British identity. Hate to state the obvious, but Unionists do not like or trust the Shinners, and that's not exclusively down to 30 years of Republican violence, its also a product of Adams lying through his teeth about his membership of the PIRA, and the operations he conducted. McGuinness played his cards right by openly admitting his involvement in the IRA, Adams' denial has put him in the never to be trusted camp, and even if he were to come clean at this stage, it's too late. Adams also states in his vision for a UI that Orangemen shall be permitted to continue with their parades, yet every year we have a riot in the Ardoyne. An elimination of this hypocrisy with some consistency could go a long way to making Unionists, the Orange Order in particular, feel that Republican gestures towards their camp are something more than hollow and vacuous words.

gallag wrote: »

Do you believe unionists have a higher percentage of idiots compared to different sections of society with differing political aspirations? Quite a bigoted statment.

Unionism is full to the brim with "idiots". Always has been, always shall, so long as they continue to breed. I'm speaking as someone who grew up in the Unionist community, and consider myself and a minority of others as exceptions to the rule. I don't hate my own community, I just wish they'd extract their collective head from their posterior, read Irish history, recognise their place within it, and where their destiny lies. "No Surrender" has a life span, and we are nearing the time where it is fast becoming redundant and meaningless.

SoulandForm

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I don't think SF take much interest in Ulster-Scots culture and heritage, other than to occasionally pay lip service to the British identity. Hate to state the obvious, but Unionists do not like or trust the Shinners, and that's not exclusively down to 30 years of Republican violence, its also a product of Adams lying through his teeth about his membership of the PIRA, and the operations he conducted. McGuinness played his cards right by openly admitting his involvement in the IRA, Adams' denial has put him in the never to be trusted camp, and even if he were to come clean at this stage, it's too late. Adams also states in his vision for a UI that Orangemen shall be permitted to continue with their parades, yet every year we have a riot in the Ardoyne. An elimination of this hypocrisy with some consistency could go a long way to making Unionists, the Orange Order in particular, feel that Republican gestures towards their camp are something more than hollow and vacuous words.

Unionism is full to the brim with "idiots". Always has been, always shall, so long as they continue to breed.

A lot of Unionists as everyday people are sweet, smart and grounded but when history or politics come up they suddenly become idiotic and crazy. Its something very strange.

Yes I know that Sinn Fein have no interest at all in Ulster Scot's culture and heritage but my point is that they should because its an important element in Ulster and for purely real politic reasons- I dont agree with the Unionist veto but at the same time there wont be a United Ireland without significant Ulster Scot support. The fact that they dont makes me see them in an NI context as more a communal Catholic party than a Republican party. I also think that Gerry Adams and others involved with the military aspect should have stepped aside. I would like to see a new Republican party that isnt blind or dismissive of everything Ulster Scot and isnt linked to the troubles but at the same time opposes the GFA.

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Its the attitude towards education in the working class protestant/loyalist areas thats a big problem, there's a bit of reverse snobbery towards people from their own areas who go into higher education/university and even those who go into the army and RAF to get out of the rut/ lifestyle/area they come from.

People who join the army or the RAF should be looked down on and shunned. I cant think of anything lower of being involved in killing people in countries you know nothing about for money. I sent an email to SF suggesting that they propose making it illegal for anyone from Northern Ireland to join the British Armed forces as a step towards independence but go no reply.

Bertie Woot

SoulandForm wrote: »

People who join the army or the RAF should be looked down on and shunned. I cant think of anything lower of being involved in killing people in countries you know nothing about for money. I sent an email to SF suggesting that they propose making it illegal for anyone from Northern Ireland to join the British Armed forces as a step towards independence but go no reply.

I can understand why you got no reply. Not even SF would go so far as to exclude NI people form joining the British armed forces. Considering that there are many Republic of Ireland citizens who are serving members of the British military, and that the Irish government have no issue with this, for the Shinners to prevent anyone in NI from joining any army they chose would be a form of prohibition, and not the right way to go about manifesting a supposed 'respect' for British and Northern Irish identity.

Blackbush1905

SoulandForm wrote: »

A lot of Unionists as everyday people are sweet, smart and grounded but when history or politics come up they suddenly become idiotic and crazy. Its something very strange.

Yes I know that Sinn Fein have no interest at all in Ulster Scot's culture and heritage but my point is that they should because its an important element in Ulster and for purely real politic reasons- I dont agree with the Unionist veto but at the same time there wont be a United Ireland without significant Ulster Scot support. The fact that they dont makes me see them in an NI context as more a communal Catholic party than a Republican party. I also think that Gerry Adams and others involved with the military aspect should have stepped aside. I would like to see a new Republican party that isnt blind or dismissive of everything Ulster Scot and isnt linked to the troubles but at the same time opposes the GFA.

The likes of Gerry Adams will never step aside, he's nothing but a sociopath who will do what ever it takes to further his own personal goals. He wants to write himself in history as the great irish republican, the man who reunited ireland and hes not going to step aside and let someone else take the credit. I never thought i'd admit say it but mcguinness at least seems genuine about reaching out to the unionist community, and his past is pretty much an open book, Gerry adams comes across as a crafty spin doctor and an unflinching pathological liar.

SoulandForm

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

The likes of Gerry Adams will never step aside, he's nothing but a sociopath who will do what ever it takes to further his own personal goals. He wants to write himself in history as the great irish republican, the man who reunited ireland and hes not going to step aside and let someone else take the credit. I never thought i'd admit say it but mcguinness at least seems genuine about reaching out to the unionist community, and his past is pretty much an open book, Gerry adams comes across as a crafty spin doctor and an unflinching pathological liar.

I would agree with this. Ed Maloney's brilliant history of the Provos also confirms it. My point is that he should.

SoulandForm

Bertie Woot wrote: »

I can understand why you got no reply. Not even SF would go so far as to exclude NI people form joining the British armed forces. Considering that there are many Republic of Ireland citizens who are serving members of the British military, and that the Irish government have no issue with this, for the Shinners to prevent anyone in NI from joining any army they chose would be a form of prohibition, and not the right way to go about manifesting a supposed 'respect' for British and Northern Irish identity.

Some things should be respected because they are worthy of respect and somethings shouldnt be. There are English people who are as much against the Monarchy and military as I am. Putting the label of "culture" on something doesnt mean that it should necessarily be respected- female genital mutilation can also be considered "culture".

Blackbush1905

SoulandForm wrote: »

Some things should be respected because they are worthy of respect and somethings shouldnt be. There are English people who are as much against the Monarchy and military as I am. Putting the label of "culture" on something doesnt mean that it should necessarily be respected- female genital mutilation can also be considered "culture".

Personaly I think the wars in iraq,afghan and probably soon to be iran are a sham and a pointless waste of life but I'm certainly not going to look look down upon and shun normal soldiers out risking their lives, losing limbs watching friends get blown to bits because of a phony war, they're not fighting for queen and country but for survival and eachother.

Crooked Jack

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Personaly I think the wars in iraq,afghan and probably soon to be iran are a sham and a pointless waste of life but I'm certainly not going to look look down upon and shun normal soldiers out risking their lives, losing limbs watching friends get blown to bits because of a phony war, they're not fighting for queen and country but for survival and eachother.

Well that's a load of bullshit. It's not as if they were out living their ordinary lives and just got caught up in these conflicts. If you join an army like the British one you should know what you're letting yourself in for and deserve everything you get.