DFDS Logistics returns to the railway

The_Wanderer

Evening folks,

It's turning into busy week so far. Today was no different.

The Container Pocket Wagons (CPW's) have been receiving maintenance at Limerick Wagon Works in preparation for the DFDS Liner returning to the railway. The train is planned to operate twice a week each way using the CPW's thus taking them over new ground between Cherryville Jct. and Waterford. The service is scheduled to start in the first week of March. In advance of this the wagons were transferred from Limerick to Ballina via Portarlington on Wednesday 27th February 2013. 075 provided the traction and the train is pictured passing Geashill, Co. Offally.
http://smu.gs/YZZ9gs

The Wanderer.

Captain Chaos

I read a while back that the CPWs were tested out to 70mph loaded but IE have them limited to 50mph. Why is this when they run at 70mph in the UK. They are air braked so what is the deal unless it's the bogies they have fitted here?

flazio

Ballina to Limerick? Where will the engine change sides to head south? In Athlone to go via Athenry or in Portarlington to go via Limerick Junction or is there a line turning south that keeps the locomotion in front that I don't know about?

Jamie2k9

Limerick to Ballina via Portarlington on Wednesday 27th February 2013.

They went to Dublin before Ballina, they departed inchicore between 14.00-14.30 and may explain the delay on services at Portarlington yesterday afternoon.

bbuzz

Excuse my ignorance,

But what is the advantage (or disadvantage) of the CPWs over normal flatbed container wagons?

Cheers!

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They went to Dublin before Ballina, they departed inchicore between 14.00-14.30 and may explain the delay on services at Portarlington yesterday afternoon.

What?? Eh no they didn't.

They went Limerick to Ballina, via Portarlington with the locomotive running around the train in Portarlington.

bbuzz wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance,



But what is the advantage (or disadvantage) of the CPWs over normal flatbed container wagons?



Cheers!

CPW's allow 9ft 6 high containers to be carried on routes where the container would be out of gauge on a standard flat wagon. The only Hi-Cube routes cleared on the IE network are Ballina - Kildare - Waterford / North Wall.

Kildare - North Wall was only cleared for Hi-Cube containers in January 2012.

I suspect the main reason for the CPW's being used for the new DFDS flow is that DFDS don't require a 18 bogie train and 12CPW's suits their needs. Remember before it finished last year the DFDS liner was loadings at times were very poor.

Jamie2k9

The_Wanderer wrote: »

What?? Eh no they didn't.

They went Limerick to Ballina, via Portarlington with the locomotive running around the train in Portarlington.

Well CPW's departed Inchicore just after the 14.00 to Cork (I am certain it was 075 but could of being 074). Any idea where they went to then as it wasn't Waterford or anywhere south of Portarlington.

pointsman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well CPW's departed Inchicore just after the 14.00 to Cork (I am certain it was 075 but could of being 074). Any idea where they went to then as it wasn't Waterford or anywhere south of Portarlington.

I think Wanderer's original post sort of gives it away just a bit though...Not by much....

"The 0910 Limerick/Ballina Transfer"

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well CPW's departed Inchicore just after the 14.00 to Cork (I am certain it was 075 but could of being 074). Any idea where they went to then as it wasn't Waterford or anywhere south of Portarlington.

I doubt it. There is only 12 active CPW's and they all went to Ballina. Unless they shunted the few stored examples at Inchicore.

Jamie2k9

The_Wanderer wrote: »

I doubt it. There is only 12 active CPW's and they all went to Ballina. Unless they shunted the few stored examples at Inchicore.

Maybe but there was at least 10 I counted and the loco facing for Kildare, I passed back at 15.50 and they were all gone no where to be seen. One thing the line between Portarlington and Geashill had an unscheduled movement that afternoon and it caused services to be delayed, 14.45 to Westport was delayed 20 minutes in Portarlington and Cork and Galway were affected as a result. It was not regular freight.

I'm not making it up so we will have to agree to disagree on it.

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Maybe but there was at least 10 I counted and the loco facing for Kildare, I passed back at 15.50 and they were all gone no where to be seen. One thing the line between Portarlington and Geashill had an unscheduled movement that afternoon and it caused services to be delayed, 14.45 to Westport was delayed 20 minutes in Portarlington and Cork and Galway were affected as a result. It was not regular freight.

I'm not making it up so we will have to agree to disagree on it.

I think we will agree to disagree but I know there was no CPW in the Dublin area on Wednesday. By 1400 the CPW's were crossing the Shannon.

As for that unscheduled freight? It was a scheduled freight which was out of path.

The Wanderer.

dowlingm

I wonder if it will be all 9'6/CPW per movement or a mix with standard/flat as we used to see in the past

pointsman

dowlingm wrote: »

I wonder if it will be all 9'6/CPW per movement or a mix with standard/flat as we used to see in the past

Personally, I was wondering if it was a Inchicore / Limerick transfer? Wheelcarrier/Tara/Flat/CPW transfer?

RonanM123

Well 234 worked the first Waterford-Ballina DFDS service today. It was NOT done with CPW. It was operated by the units that operated it before, there was around 12 and all full departing this morning.

Here is a old picture from Irish Rail site that these things were used today.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/DFDS21.jpg

The_Wanderer

The inaugural 1105 Ballina - Waterford Belview Port DFDS liner passing through Athy with the Container Pocket Wagons. The train was running +60 late as the train loco had to go and rescue failed Tamper 744 at Monastervin.
http://smu.gs/12s2vPG

Also a video of the first departure from Belview Port yesterday uploaded by the Port of Waterford. The train was hauled by 234 and consisted of 18 flats which were all loaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0xVkVZL7I&sns=em

Jamie2k9

According to DFDS CEO they hope in time to restore the third weekly rotation in the future. Would be great if it happens.

Judgement Day

The_Wanderer wrote: »

The inaugural 1105 Ballina - Waterford Belview Port DFDS liner passing through Athy with the Container Pocket Wagons. The train was running +60 late as the train loco had to go and rescue failed Track Recording Car 700 at Monastervin.
http://smu.gs/12s2vPG

Also a video of the first departure from Belview Port yesterday uploaded by the Port of Waterford. The train was hauled by 234 and consisted of 18 flats which were all loaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0xVkVZL7I&sns=em

I thought Ireland was too small to have rail freight? :rolleyes:

corktina

i think most people have consistantly said with the exception of a flow such as this, Ireland is too small. Most other possible destinations have Ports of their own so it would be hard to envisage others flows.

Lets hope I am proved wrong in this.

yachtsman

Best wishes to DFDS. Their determination to use the railways despite being put off at every turn by CIE is to be admired. Their predecessors Norfolk Lines showed faith back in 2005 when CIE tried to abandon railfreight while so-called economists said Ireland was too small for railfreight. I recall a memorable clip on SixOne News showing Barry Kenny declare the country was too small for profitable railfreight as a profit making Tara Mines Liner trundled past in the background after its 50 mile trip!!!!!! and the indifferent reporter had'nt the savvy to ask Mr Kenny -"Whats that?".......

I am confident that DFDS have CIEs measure at this point. One thing they might consider as indeed the Minister for Transport and railfreight campaigners should, is an interesting gem of knowledge revealed in CIEs recent accounts. I must credit the researchers in the Irish Railway Record Society Journal in the February 2013 issue for this.

According to the IRRS Journal on page 260,

"Track access charges of €37.6m are noted in the [Annual] report for the first time.
They were apportioned

• mainline access charge €25.5 - expenditure €148m - 17%
• suburban access charge €9.7 - expenditure €43m - 22%
• freight access charge €2.4 - expenditure €5m - 19%

There was no explanation in the report of how these charges were derived, nor was the relationship between them and infrastructure expenditure allocations noted above explained."

Bear in mind that there are less than 3,000 freight trains per annum compared with about 150,000 passenger trains! Freight trains use about 15% of the systems track network. I reckon the freight access charge should be 2% if you base track charges on their proportionate volume of trains;or 1.25% if track charges are proportionate to expenditure; rather than 19%,..

In other words each freight train should be charged track access charges of €100 to €150 rather than €1,400.

Before applying track access charges of €2.4m in 2011 Railfreight showed a profit of €1.1m.

Using the above data track access charges should have been €100,000 to €250,000 leaving a net profit of €850,000 to €1m rather than the recorded loss of €1.3!

As Frank Carson used to say, “Its the way you tell ‘em!”.

It appears to me that freight access charges are loaded deliberately and disproportionately to the disadvantage of railfreight.

The IRRS Journal continues,” Based on the tonne-km implied in the [CIE Annual] Report the freight track access charge works out at approximately 2.6 cent/tonne-km or based on the number of trains per week in the report it works out at approximately €1,400 per freight train. Using the Railway Safety Commission annual train-km figures for 2010 the charge works out at approximately €2 per train-km for passenger trains.”

If the average passenger train journey is 200km this means CIE charge a passenger train €400 and a freight train €1,400.

That’s outrageous and undermines railfreight.

cbl593h

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Snipped.......

Also a video of the first departure from Belview Port yesterday uploaded by the Port of Waterford. The train was hauled by 234 and consisted of 18 flats which were all loaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0xVkVZL7I&sns=em[/QUOTE]

A smidgin fast there for still in a yard, methinks.........:eek:

foggy_lad

cbl593h wrote: »

A smidgin fast there for still in a yard, methinks.........:eek:

Looks like the video was speeded up a bit? also I don't think I've seen so many high vis covered suits gathered in one place, they were all out for the party, must have been a free lunch or "refreshments" after:D

Losty Dublin

yachtsman wrote: »

Best wishes to DFDS. Their determination to use the railways despite being put off at every turn by CIE is to be admired. .....
If the average passenger train journey is 200km this means CIE charge a passenger train €400 and a freight train €1,400.

That’s outrageous and undermines railfreight.

As it stands, rail freight policy in Ireland is that trains are run and billed without using any subvention or subsidy funds. On this basis, freight trains are efectively private leasings with all costs incurred passed on the the customer, including a set track access rate and a per KM rate. This is why the track cost shown are higher than passenger trains. While it does undermine rail freight this is the rules under which the DoT makes Irish Rail freight operates here and not the other way around.

rainbowdash

I think Irish Rail might be beginning to realise that they better get some extra freight on the rails as passenger numbers are falling, and the government are strapped for cash. There isno guarantee the government will sustain their pay, pensions, and working conditions.

If Irish Rail went on all out strike I don't think they have a huge amount of leverage.

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4778&p=116&n=237

New rail freight service between Waterford and Ballina

07 March 2013
There’s more good news in rail freight! DFDS Logistics have begun a twice weekly in each direction container rail service between Waterford Port and Ballina this week.
The new service will benefit customers in the West and North West of Ireland in particular, providing them with a cost effective alternative when compared with a road based shipping. Coupled with this, the customer also reduces their carbon footprint.
The trains are planned to meet DFDS sailing schedules from Waterford Port to Rotterdam, which allows for onward delivery into Europe. Customers can now load in the West of Ireland on Tuesday morning and deliver in Holland on Thursday pm/Friday am. Rotterdam also provides access to DFDS sailings to Norway, and rail connections to Italy, allowing for a rail-sea-rail connection from Ballina to Milan.
DFDS will utilise a significant amount of available rail wagons , but have left scope to develop the service further by introducing new customers, both internal Irish traffic and import / export traffic.
This is an important addition to the DFDS services in Ireland, and perfect business for rail freight from Iarnród Éireann’s point of view, covering a longer distance, guaranteed volumes and direct port access. It will see freight volumes increase from 91 million tonne kilometres in 2012 to 105 million tonne kilometres approx in 2013.

out_of_the_pale

DFDS liner will run 18 wagons on Monday and Friday and 12 wagons (cpw's) Tuesday and Thursday.

There is no DFDS CEO in Ireland as mentioned in another post, but I know they do want a 3rd or even 4th service up and running in the future.

Captain Chaos

out_of_the_pale wrote: »

DFDS liner will run 18 wagons on Monday and Friday and 12 wagons (cpw's) Tuesday and Thursday.

There is no DFDS CEO in Ireland as mentioned in another post, but I know they do want a 3rd or even 4th service up and running in the future.

Is there enough 47ft flats to keep DFDS happy and the IWT flows going? IE may have to bring the other 12 CPWs into service. That won't leave any maintenance spares.

Jamie2k9

IE may have to bring the other 12 CPWs into service. That won't leave any maintenance spares.

Freight is probably the only profitable part of Irish Rail at the minute so they will need to do whatever is possible to keep both parties happy if they are serous about freight which they seem to be more so now than lets say a few years ago. I'm sure both operators understand that maintenance is required and if there was a shortage both would just have to deal with a reduced capacity or frequency for a small period of time while the work is done. Ships also require overhauls so they either stop for a period or they have spare ships to take the slack. If they have to stop then both them and Irish Rail should carry out there maintenance at the same time.

Out of interest does anyone know the total number of flats, cpw and timber ones.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Out of interest does anyone know the total number of flats, cpw and timber ones.

IE have 24 CPWs and 24 bogie timbers. There are about 40 60ft wagons, about 24 are used for timber and some of the rest were modified to carry welded rails for the PWD to form the rail train.

They had a ton of 42ft and 47ft flats up to a few years ago. I don't know how many have been scrapped with the drop off of freight a few years back.
At one time there were about 200 42ft flats and 70 47ft flats. I reckon about 100 of the older type of 42ft flats were scrapped.

flazio

May I ask what route the train takes from Waterford to Ballina?

Losty Dublin

flazio wrote: »

May I ask what route the train takes from Waterford to Ballina?

It heads Waterford to Kildare firstly, avoiding Kilkenny via Lavistown junction. The engine changes ends at Kildare and then it's Kildare to Portarlington, Athlone, Manulla and Ballina. On some of these trips, a loco is changed at Kildare so you may get to see two engines at work.

Barracuda1

Roll on phase two of the WRC!!

corktina

Barracuda1 wrote: »

Roll on phase two of the WRC!!

that's more than unlikely...the Waterford to Limerick Junction line is reduced to a basic railway almost now and reversal at Limerick would still be necessary, quite apart from the fact that phase two would only take you to Tuam anyway.

Barracuda1

corktina wrote: »

that's more than unlikely...the Waterford to Limerick Junction line is reduced to a basic railway almost now and reversal at Limerick would still be necessary, quite apart from the fact that phase two would only take you to Tuam anyway.

You are correct. Good to see the rail freight market growing. This is another feather in the cap of the export led market. What exactly are the goods being shipped.

LXFlyer

The fact that with virtually two short periods during the day Limerick/Ennis is fully occupied already throughout the day and that Limerick Junction/Waterford has been reduced to a single shift of gate keepers/signalmen (being closed in the middle of the day) means that the only viable route is via Kildare.

There are sufficient paths available to run additional freight services via Kildare.

corktina

Barracuda1 wrote: »

You are correct. Good to see the rail freight market growing. This is another feather in the cap of the export led market. What exactly are the goods being shipped.

It's hard to see however how it could grow more. I hope it does, but not holding my breathe

Sligo Quay

Barracuda1 wrote: »

Roll on phase two of the WRC!!

Dream on, it ain't goin happen, and if it did, the so called phase two as you call it, is ''Athenry / Tuam, so I don't know how that benefits the DFDS liner service, you could repost in the ''pipe dream'' thread which I haven't read in months, is WRC thread.

rainbowdash

Would it not make sense to run these freight trains at night?

I suppose the only other potential container route in terms of distance is Dublin - Kerry, with possibly a stop in Limerick. There are no container ship facilities in Kerry.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

Would it not make sense to run these freight trains at night?

I suppose the only other potential container route in terms of distance is Dublin - Kerry, with possibly a stop in Limerick. There are no container ship facilities in Kerry.

Foynes is but lorry ride away as is Cork.(Oh and practically noone lives there

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

Foynes is but lorry ride away as is Cork.(Oh and practically noone lives there

No containers go through Foynes.

Nobody lives in Ballina either.

In a couple of years Liverpool 2 will hopefully be open. A lot of containers could be coming China - Liverpool - Dublin. Cork would be in the wrong place then.

As far as I know most containers come via Dublin at the moment, its a more frequent service from Rotterdam than Cork, so transit times are shorter.

I am not sure if there are enough big container customers in Kerry to underpin a regular service though.

And of course the freight yards in Kerry are probably sold for development.

Sligo Quay

rainbowdash wrote: »

Would it not make sense to run these freight trains at night?

Yes it would, but then again, when did Irish Rail ever do anything that made sense.

bbuzz

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Yes it would, but then again, when did Irish Rail ever do anything that made sense.

Might be to do with level crossing attendants, don't think all the LCs from Waterford to Ballina are automatic (might be wrong).

Jamie2k9

bbuzz wrote: »

Might be to do with level crossing attendants, don't think all the LCs from Waterford to Ballina are automatic (might be wrong).

Yes 3 on Waterford line are not automatic, then staff in Waterford for signalling system, staff in Dublin for CTC, lots of costs so when possible it should be during the day and when not at night.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

No containers go through Foynes.

Nobody lives in Ballina either.

In a couple of years Liverpool 2 will hopefully be open. A lot of containers could be coming China - Liverpool - Dublin. Cork would be in the wrong place then.

As far as I know most containers come via Dublin at the moment, its a more frequent service from Rotterdam than Cork, so transit times are shorter.

I am not sure if there are enough big container customers in Kerry to underpin a regular service though.

And of course the freight yards in Kerry are probably sold for development.

But isn't Foynes on the starting grid for a multi-billion deep-water port and container terminal with upgraded road access and rail line re-opening?:D

You can't just say "Kerry" anyway when you actually mean Tralee to all intents and purposes. Roads to Tralee are being upgraded as we speak btw

Rocky Bay

rainbowdash wrote: »

No containers go through Foynes.

Nobody lives in Ballina either.

In a couple of years Liverpool 2 will hopefully be open. A lot of containers could be coming China - Liverpool - Dublin. Cork would be in the wrong place then.

As far as I know most containers come via Dublin at the moment, its a more frequent service from Rotterdam than Cork, so transit times are shorter.

I am not sure if there are enough big container customers in Kerry to underpin a regular service though.

And of course the freight yards in Kerry are probably sold for development.

What is "Liverpool 2" ?

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes 3 on Waterford line are not automatic, then staff in Waterford for signalling system, staff in Dublin for CTC, lots of costs so when possible it should be during the day and when not at night.

CTC is manned 24/7, is it not?

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

CTC is manned 24/7, is it not?

Not sure assumed it wasn't but thinking about it there is only around 3 hours when nothing is running on the network so it may be 24/7.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure assumed it wasn't but thinking about it there is only around 3 hours when nothing is running on the network so it may be 24/7.

Actually when I think of it, it has to be manned 24/7 as they need to clear PW movements, Sandite, transfers, test trains and monitor the Dublin level crossings.

rainbowdash

Rocky Bay wrote: »

What is "Liverpool 2" ?

Its a new container port capable of handling the biggest container ships on the sea, so the biggest boats from China could dock in Liverpool which is obviously closer to Dublin than Rotterdam so quicker and maybe cheaper too.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes 3 on Waterford line are not automatic, then staff in Waterford for signalling system, staff in Dublin for CTC, lots of costs so when possible it should be during the day and when not at night.

Another factor is availability of staff at Kildare to assist with the loco runaround.

Heisenberg1

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure assumed it wasn't but thinking about it there is only around 3 hours when nothing is running on the network so it may be 24/7.

CTC is manned 24/7 365 days a year.

pointsman

Don't I bloody know it too! We manage night transfers, possessions, PWD Workings, Sandite and anything else that may need to happen during the night. Most possessions take place from around 0015 until 0500.