Sickness Absence in the Public Sector

Hybernian Angel

As a nurse Manager with the HSE I have to say I feel the sickness absence is horrifically high. In my experience, and I'm ashamed to say it - but many nurses and Health Care Assistants ( HCA's) will ring in sick at the drop of a hat. For most it's the mothers of young children who'll claim S/L if their child is sick - rather than taking emergency A/L.

It's very disheartening to see this when so many of us go in to work at 07:00hrs and leave at sometimes 21:30hrs. Putting in the time ( up to 50 hours in my case - for 37.5 hrs pay), just to try and get the job done for our patients.

On the one hand we have workers who give way over and above what we're contracted for - and do it willingly. And on the other hand there are those who'll doss as much as they can - and call in a Union rep if they're so much as talked to about taking unreasonable time off.

I really feel there should be no single day S/L pay - why on earth was such a ridiculous measure ever brought in in the first place ?.:(

Rightwing

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

As a nurse Manager with the HSE I have to say I feel the sickness absence is horrifically high. In my experience, and I'm ashamed to say it - but many nurses and Health Care Assistants ( HCA's) will ring in sick at the drop of a hat. For most it's the mothers of young children who'll claim S/L if their child is sick - rather than taking emergency A/L.

It's very disheartening to see this when so many of us go in to work at 07:00hrs and leave at sometimes 21:30hrs. Putting in the time ( up to 50 hours in my case - for 37.5 hrs pay), just to try and get the job done for our patients.

On the one hand we have workers who give way over and above what we're contracted for - and do it willingly. And on the other hand there are those who'll doss as much as they can - and call in a Union rep if they're so much as talked to about taking unreasonable time off.

I really feel there should be no single day S/L pay - why on earth was such a ridiculous measure ever brought in in the first place ?.:(

There's no reason for you to feel ashamed if you are not the one ringing in sick. Pity the others aren't like you though.

Hybernian Angel

It is shameful Rightwing, because we as a profession should know better. But it's the whole abuse of the system that's so grating. I've come across instances which are pretty astounding -but are literally happening in hospitals and Care facilities across the country. In one, a HCA had taken all of the 'sick' days he could, then ended up in trouble over a work related incident. He went to his GP and got certs covering him for a total of six months and full pay and then six months on half pay. When he was contacted by HR to say his contract would now have to be terminated - he turned up for work again.

In another instance, a nurse was found to have done something that endangered a patient. When she was spoken to about it and advised that some training would be needed - she went to her union. It's now in it's 8th month of investigation - she's out on full pay........and working as an agency worker pretty much full time.

She's told me that out of the money she's made she can now buy her parents another house in her country - and will happily emigrate later because wages are dropping here. Oh - and she's getting paid full A/L, Sunday and night duty premium - not flat rate.

Rightwing

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

It is shameful Rightwing, because we as a profession should know better. But it's the whole abuse of the system that's so grating. I've come accross instances which are pretty astounding -= but are literally happening in hospitaals and Care facilities accross the country. In one, a HCA had taken all of the 'sick' days he could, then ended up in trouble over a work related incident. He went to his GP and got certs covering him for a total of six months and full pay and then six months on half pay. When he was contacted by HR to say his contract would now have to be terminated - he turned up for work again.

In another instance, a nurse was found to have done something that endangered a patient. When she was spoken to about it and advised that some training would be needed - she went to her union. It's now in it's 8th month of investigation - she's out on full pay........and working as an agency worker pretty much full time.

She's told me that out of the money she's made she can now buy her parents another house in her country - and will happily emigrate later because wages are dropping here. Oh - and she's getting paid full A/L, Sunday and night duty premium - not flat rate.

It's shameful alright. Some teachers the same, I read in the paper some case in Athlone a principal was out for about 8 months simply because another teacher pulled her hair and she fell on the floor :mad:

paulgalway

This problem with the HSE was covered in Midweek tonite.

costs €300 million per year in HSE

€500 million per year for the civil service in general.

Hybernian Angel

Yep - saw it. Had to laugh when watching the SIPTU rep stating that it was up to us managers to uphold the 'very robust'policies in place. As much as glance in a workers direction and they 'union up', which although we might be able to win our case against the worker - all it's actually caused is hardship as we have to spend time we actually don't have defending our actions against allegations of harrassment, bullying, targeting etc.

If the Unions really were on the side of 'teamwork' they'd tell some of the 'waste of spaces' to take a hike.

coolshannagh28

Sick days are treated as holidays in any part of the PS I am familiar with .

Scortho

Surely sick leave should be on the basis of a med cert. in the private sector company I work for we don't get paid sick leave for the first 2 days of the shift. One of its advantages is that very few people will go sick over a flu. Now i know nurses and doctors, care assistants amd porters shouldnt be in a hospital if sick, but not all of the staff in the hse are on the frontline.

If I was told that I had x amount of days uncertified sick leave a year I'd be treating them as extra holiday days.
Our shop steward flips when people go sick on his shift for a day as it means the rest of the shift have to do the same work with a person down.

creedp

Scortho wrote: »

Surely sick leave should be on the basis of a med cert.

This can be a double edged sword. If uncertified sick leave is available then people may take the small numbers of days now available to recover from illnesses but given that you can only take 2 consecutive days they are likely not to extend their sick leave beyond the 2 days. However, if you force them to get a cert each time .. that cost €55 to €60! A doctor will give you a 5 day cert - pretty normal. Q - How many days wil the person then be out of work? Ans - 5 days! You get what you pay for! Recently I got a cert for 5 days but returned after 3 - more the fool I was!!

Sponge Bob

I have friends working in HSE West, notably in UCHG. They have told me that their greatest fear is being on shift BEFORE certain individuals who dog the S/L system.

That is because there are no 'pool' staff to cover s/l which means that the staff member on duty has to STAY on duty in order to cover the ward...sometimes for hours before they are relieved. They are not paid overtime for this emergency cover. They could leave if they had to but it would be unprofessional. The system is so tight that staff are often called in on training/study days to cover wards. These staff members could be struck off the register as they are not getting adequate training on the job....which is ridiculous. Meanwhile the slackers won't do a sick on a training day and are therefore 'compliant' unlike their harder working colleagues.

In the past they could ring the Matrons office, explain that they needed cover, and go home. Now there is no cover, no slack in the system and no way of predicting when certain individuals will take the piss.

Very stressful being a proper professional in such a f'ked up system.

not yet

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

As a nurse Manager with the HSE I have to say I feel the sickness absence is horrifically high. In my experience, and I'm ashamed to say it - but many nurses and Health Care Assistants ( HCA's) will ring in sick at the drop of a hat. For most it's the mothers of young children who'll claim S/L if their child is sick - rather than taking emergency A/L.

It's very disheartening to see this when so many of us go in to work at 07:00hrs and leave at sometimes 21:30hrs. Putting in the time ( up to 50 hours in my case - for 37.5 hrs pay), just to try and get the job done for our patients.

On the one hand we have workers who give way over and above what we're contracted for - and do it willingly. And on the other hand there are those who'll doss as much as they can - and call in a Union rep if they're so much as talked to about taking unreasonable time off.

I really feel there should be no single day S/L pay - why on earth was such a ridiculous measure ever brought in in the first place ?.:(

HA Ha..your funny.

Please tell me how this is possible when from last July ALL PS workers have 3.5 days USL. You give the impression that Staff take as many sick days as they want Just to look after crying kids. Jesus, IBEC and ISME would love you........

Hybernian Angel

I have 8 mothers on my staff, all took full S/L last year and are working their way through this one. I have 17 staff altogether - 10 of whom will avail of this. It's anything but funny. Its so very sad.

not yet

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

I have 8 mothers on my staff, all took full S/L last year and are working their way through this one. I have 17 staff altogether - 10 of whom will avail of this. It's anything but funny. Its so very sad.

By ALL of their SL you mean the 3.5 days right. Now I know plenty of people in the retail and private sector who get 5-7 USL some take them others don't. The point is people get sick, Are you seriously saying sick leave should be done away with.

not yet

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

As a nurse Manager with the HSE I have to say I feel the sickness absence is horrifically high. In my experience, and I'm ashamed to say it - but many nurses and Health Care Assistants ( HCA's) will ring in sick at the drop of a hat. For most it's the mothers of young children who'll claim S/L if their child is sick - rather than taking emergency A/L.

It's very disheartening to see this when so many of us go in to work at 07:00hrs and leave at sometimes 21:30hrs. Putting in the time ( up to 50 hours in my case - for 37.5 hrs pay), just to try and get the job done for our patients.

On the one hand we have workers who give way over and above what we're contracted for - and do it willingly. And on the other hand there are those who'll doss as much as they can - and call in a Union rep if they're so much as talked to about taking unreasonable time off.

I really feel there should be no single day S/L pay - why on earth was such a ridiculous measure ever brought in in the first place ?.:(

Sorry I cannot let this go, Please explain to me how ''Mothers'' seem to take any amount of SL at the drop of a hat when They have 3.5 days USL a year which is 0.29 days a month.

Godge

From experience in both public and private sectors I have found that abuse of sick leave generally arises from two or three causes only.

(1) An individual abusing the system. This can be dealt with simply through the disciplinary procedure.
(2) A cultural issue - over time a culture builds up mainly fostered by weak management whereby staff come to believe they are entitled to the sick leave as part of annual leave. This requires very competent management to shift and leadership but sometimes requires external intervention. In the case of the public service, the recent changes to sick leave gave the opportunity to managers everywhere to sit down with their team and explain the changes and what was expected and start to change the culture. Where this falls down in public service institutions, it is because team leaders and managers believe it is someone else's responsibility, someone in head office or over in adminstration should sort this out. Every manager with a team should be addressing this issue, there are loads of procedures in place.
(3) Poor management - the early stage of (2). In this case either bringing in a competent manager or training the manager



Essentially managers need to step up to the plate on this one.


Edit: A clinical nurse manager is paid up to €51,000 before allowances, shift and overtime

Hybernian Angel

As it stands we work on a very low staff to patient ratio ( morning 6 staff to 27 patients. evening 4 staff to 27. Night 2 staff to 27). And an extreamely high patient dependency. When someone is out on S/L at the moment we're allowed replace them with agency. However this usually means someone who doesn't know the ward / patients. With the budget cuts - from next month we won't be allowed agency replacement. As it is - when someone is out on S/L it generates so much extra work on regular staff that we end up having to stay late - unpaid - to try finish their work also.

And it's usually the one's who rarely if ever take S/L that ends up trying to make up fore the short fall. It's very stressful.

RainyDay

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

I have 8 mothers on my staff, all took full S/L last year and are working their way through this one. I have 17 staff altogether - 10 of whom will avail of this. It's anything but funny. Its so very sad.

And what are you doing to manage it?

Gumbo

RainyDay wrote: »

And what are you doing to manage it?

What can she do in fairness, when the people are getting medical certs signed by their GP's?

Hybernian Angel

Back to work interviews are held after each S/L. But we have to be very careful - especially if there are med certs to cover. We're not entitled to enquire into the nature of the illness as it's invasion of privacy. Although the staff will usually give some name. Some G/P's will give certs for a full week on 'viral illness' when we know it's just the staff member pulling a fast one. This reflects badly on those who are genuinely ill. As always - it's the few who give the many a bad name.

Also there are some workers who will push the boat out and threaten union involvement very unfairly - because we're so pushed time wise we don't have the time to engage in these talks. I've had to go in to work on my days off for these hearings - but can't get time back or paid for because we simply don't have the resources.

Godge

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Back to work interviews are held after each S/L. But we have to be very careful - especially if there are med certs to cover. We're not entitled to enquire into the nature of the illness as it's invasion of privacy. Although the staff will usually give some name. Some G/P's will give certs for a full week on 'viral illness' when we know it's just the staff member pulling a fast one. This reflects badly on those who are genuinely ill. As always - it's the few who give the many a bad name.

Also there are some workers who will push the boat out and threaten union involvement very unfairly - because we're so pushed time wise we don't have the time to engage in these talks. I've had to go in to work on my days off for these hearings - but can't get time back or paid for because we simply don't have the resources.

It is a chicken and egg scenario. You won't go into work for the hearings because you won't get time back because you don't have the resources but you don't have the resources because you won't address the poor sick leave issue by having the hearings/discussions with the unions.

One of those things have to give, if I was in your shoes, as a manager I would actively tackle the sick leave issue including going in on days off. (You could note the days you went in and claim them back in six months if your intervention manages to address the resources issue).

RainyDay

kceire wrote: »

What can she do in fairness, when the people are getting medical certs signed by their GP's?

When she refers to 'full S/L', she is talking about uncertified leave. So she needs to manage it. Uncertified leave is a privilege, not a right, and can be withdrawn - standard procedure in any public sector organisation. The line manager needs to drive this.

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Back to work interviews are held after each S/L. But we have to be very careful - especially if there are med certs to cover. We're not entitled to enquire into the nature of the illness as it's invasion of privacy. Although the staff will usually give some name.

Indeed, it is an invasion of privacy. Line Managers have no need to know the nature of the illness. There is no value in Line Managers knowing the nature of the illness, as unless they are able to do a full occ health examination, they cannot make any judgement about the health of the employee. That requires an occ health doctor, not a nosey Line Manager.

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Some G/P's will give certs for a full week on 'viral illness' when we know it's just the staff member pulling a fast one. This reflects badly on those who are genuinely ill. As always - it's the few who give the many a bad name.

Can I ask how you know with such certainty that the staff member with the cert is 'pulling a fast one'.

Hybernian Angel

I do go in on my days off for the hearings, and also to address the issue with senior management. But I can't keep going in - for the same few who are causing the issue. I also bring a lot of work on policies etc home that I don't have time to do at work. I don't think there are many who'd work 50 hrs plus for a 37.5 hr pay - just to help deal with people who are so protected we face an uphill struggle in a sector that we're already struggling badly - simply to deal with 'normal' day to day work.

Bottom line is that there are people who'll abuse what is a very generous S/L package no matter what we do. Up to six months can be taken on certified leave over a 4 year period. Then up to six months on half pay. This can be taken all in one go. Also there's maternity leave of 26 weeks. We had one employee who took the 26 weeks, then a further 16 weeks unpaid leave. She was given all of her years 7 weeks A/L and premium pay allowance ( for the Sat / Suns she would have worked had she been at work), paid for as she then came back for 12 weeks and went out on paid Mat leave again with a second child.

The HSE is on it's knees, we're struggling with less funds and more demands on us frontline workers - we can't afford the amount of system abuse that's going on.

Paulzx

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

This can be taken all in one go. Also there's maternity leave of 26 weeks. We had one employee who took the 26 weeks, then a further 16 weeks unpaid leave. She was given all of her years 7 weeks A/L and premium pay allowance ( for the Sat / Suns she would have worked had she been at work), paid for as she then came back for 12 weeks and went out on paid Mat leave again with a second child.

.

The employee here has done nothing illegal or wrong. No matter where she is employed she will receive 26 weeks materntiy, 16 weeks unpaid maternity, annual leave etc. Obviously plenty of employers won't pay full maternity but that's not part of your arguement. You seem to have an issue with the statutory provisions for mothers

Hybernian Angel

'Nosey line Manager' ?. This discussion has now dropped considerably in calibre. Pity !.

Yes - single S/L days are a privilage - but I've had to waste some of my very valuble time on trying to help convince a beligerent union rep that his 'client' had used up too many 'privilages' consistantly over the past 4 years and that we were now intending on withdrawing the 'privilage'.

It's our patients that are suffering as well as tired and frustrated staff. And ultimately it's the public purse that's taking the over €300 million hit when we know it could be much lower had we not unions etc to contend with. Over 10% S/L annually in the public sector - approx 2% in the Private ?. I rest my case and now have to get back - on my day off - to complete paperwork that I didn't have time to finish in the hospital.

Paulzx

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Bottom line is that there are people who'll abuse what is a very generous S/L package no matter what we do. Up to six months can be taken on certified leave over a 4 year period. Then up to six months on half pay. This can be taken all in one go. Also there's maternity leave of 26 weeks. We had o.

People get removed from the sick pay scheme all the time i.e they stop being paid. They don't have to reach these figures for this to happen. Removal of the uncertified is easy if you abuse it. It has happened in my workplace which is also public sector.

Most workplaces will also have provision within their bullying and harassment policies that fair correction for sub standard work etc. is not regarded as bullying and bullying complaints along these lines are spurious

Paulzx

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

It's our patients that are suffering as well as tired and frustrated staff. And ultimately it's the public purse that's taking the over €300 million hit when we know it could be much lower had we not unions etc to contend with. Over 10% S/L annually in the public sector - approx 2% in the Private ?. I rest my case and now have to get back - on my day off - to complete paperwork that I didn't have time to finish in the hospital.

So its all the unions fault?

I work in a unionised workplace that works unsocial hours and also has a reasonable amount of occupational injuries due to the work. The sick rate is 5% including occupational injuries.

What are the management in my place doing right that yours aren't?

Hybernian Angel

Not at all Paulzx - I'm a mother of four myself but it was back in the day when we got 16 weeks Mat leave. My issue is the fact that between S/L and Mat leave we in the hospitals are trying to care for seriously ill patients on a very dangerous level of staff calibre.

People have a right to be sick and have children. And the certainly have as right to be looked after when so. But because of the staff moratorium and budget cuts - we can't replace them.

This is largely the reason you hear such frightening reports in the media on Med Neg and MRSA / VRE outbreaks in our hospitals, neonatal units and Care home facilities.

Hybernian Angel

Re the 5% - congratulations. I wish I knew what your Management were doing. Are you public or private - just interested.

not yet

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Not at all Paulzx - I'm a mother of four myself but it was back in the day when we got 16 weeks Mat leave. My issue is the fact that between S/L and Mat leave we in the hospitals are trying to care for seriously ill patients on a very dangerous level of staff calibre.

People have a right to be sick and have children. And the certainly have as right to be looked after when so. But because of the staff moratorium and budget cuts - we can't replace them.

This is largely the reason you hear such frightening reports in the media on Med Neg and MRSA / VRE outbreaks in our hospitals, neonatal units and Care home facilities.

Well then go vent your fustration on the government for imposing these moratoriums and stop whinging about women taking leave they are entitled to.

not yet

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

'Nosey line Manager' ?. This discussion has now dropped considerably in calibre. Pity !.

Yes - single S/L days are a privilage - but I've had to waste some of my very valuble time on trying to help convince a beligerent union rep that his 'client' had used up too many 'privilages' consistantly over the past 4 years and that we were now intending on withdrawing the 'privilage'.

It's our patients that are suffering as well as tired and frustrated staff. And ultimately it's the public purse that's taking the over €300 million hit when we know it could be much lower had we not unions etc to contend with. Over 10% S/L annually in the public sector - approx 2% in the Private ?. I rest my case and now have to get back - on my day off - to complete paperwork that I didn't have time to finish in the hospital.

Oh by the way, you'll find that the figure in the PS is closer to 5% in the psat couple of years. I suppose you don't agree with the thinking that if you work with sick people you get sick more often.

And Just on a side note, the part where you say ''we'' are intending to take them off the sick leave scheme......your just a number like anyone else and not part of the ''we'', just saying.

RainyDay

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

'Nosey line Manager' ?. This discussion has now dropped considerably in calibre. Pity !.

It dropped in calibre when you told us that you 'know' that some people on certified leave are 'pulling a fast one' but you failed to explain the source of your knowledge, and you noted your concern about how you're not able to ask your employees about their medical history, even though this is none of your business.

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Yes - single S/L days are a privilage - but I've had to waste some of my very valuble time on trying to help convince a beligerent union rep that his 'client' had used up too many 'privilages' consistantly over the past 4 years and that we were now intending on withdrawing the 'privilage'.

You don't have to convince a union rep of anything. You make a decision as a manager. You communicate it to the employee, who may want to be represented by their union at discussion. You keep repeating the same clear, specific fact-based message to the employee and their union rep.

You get a huge return on the time invested in this process, as you not only fix the sick leave problem for this employee, you also send a message to their peers that abuse is not tolerated.

If you're a line manager and you're not addressing the problem, then you are just as much part of the problem as any of the employees who are abusing the situation.

Scortho

creedp wrote: »

This can be a double edged sword. If uncertified sick leave is available then people may take the small numbers of days now available to recover from illnesses but given that you can only take 2 consecutive days they are likely not to extend their sick leave beyond the 2 days. However, if you force them to get a cert each time .. that cost €55 to €60! A doctor will give you a 5 day cert - pretty normal. Q - How many days wil the person then be out of work? Ans - 5 days! You get what you pay for! Recently I got a cert for 5 days but returned after 3 - more the fool I was!!

If your genuinely sick you go get a cert. you get paid your wages as a result of producing cert. uncertified sick leave shouldn't be paid. We're bankrupt and can't afford it. Also it encourages people to take 3.5 days extra leave. If its in your contract that you get 3.5 days uncertified to me that's 3 extra long weekends.
On your other point I don't think it would. Most frontline staff do shift work. Secondly the situation that a doctor can certify you sick for 5 days when you'll only be sick for one day is absurd.

RainyDay

Scortho wrote: »

If your genuinely sick you go get a cert. you get paid your wages as a result of producing cert. uncertified sick leave shouldn't be paid. We're bankrupt and can't afford it. Also it encourages people to take 3.5 days extra leave. If its in your contract that you get 3.5 days uncertified to me that's 3 extra long weekends.

Most decent employers will pay a limited amount of uncertified sick leave. You really don't want to be forcing employees to the doctor for every flu or tummy bug at €50 or €60 a go. The best thing they can do is stay at home, rest and get plenty of fluids. If you make it really hard for them to take time off, they'll come to work, do very little, and spread their germs around.
With proper management, leadership and motivation, uncertified leave is just that, and is not treated as extra leave for the taking.

Scortho wrote: »

.
On your other point I don't think it would. Most frontline staff do shift work. Secondly the situation that a doctor can certify you sick for 5 days when you'll only be sick for one day is absurd.

The doctor doesn't have a crystal ball. He's not going to know how soon your symptoms will clear in any exact detail, so he's going to err on the side of caution. And by the way, if you want to return to work early, you need to get a doctors cert to say that you're fit for work too.

gazzer

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

I do go in on my days off for the hearings, and also to address the issue with senior management. But I can't keep going in - for the same few who are causing the issue. I also bring a lot of work on policies etc home that I don't have time to do at work. I don't think there are many who'd work 50 hrs plus for a 37.5 hr pay - just to help deal with people who are so protected we face an uphill struggle in a sector that we're already struggling badly - simply to deal with 'normal' day to day work.

Bottom line is that there are people who'll abuse what is a very generous S/L package no matter what we do. Up to six months can be taken on certified leave over a 4 year period. Then up to six months on half pay. This can be taken all in one go. Also there's maternity leave of 26 weeks. We had one employee who took the 26 weeks, then a further 16 weeks unpaid leave. She was given all of her years 7 weeks A/L and premium pay allowance ( for the Sat / Suns she would have worked had she been at work), paid for as she then came back for 12 weeks and went out on paid Mat leave again with a second child.

The HSE is on it's knees, we're struggling with less funds and more demands on us frontline workers - we can't afford the amount of system abuse that's going on.

Have the sick leave rules not changed now? You can only have 7 uncertified days in a 2 year period and the 6 months Certified leave on full pay is now 3 months.

Paulzx

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

Not at all Paulzx - I'm a mother of four myself but it was back in the day when we got 16 weeks Mat leave. My issue is the fact that between S/L and Mat leave we in the hospitals are trying to care for seriously ill patients on a very dangerous level of staff calibre.

People have a right to be sick and have children. And the certainly have as right to be looked after when so. But because of the staff moratorium and budget cuts - we can't replace them.

This is largely the reason you hear such frightening reports in the media on Med Neg and MRSA / VRE outbreaks in our hospitals, neonatal units and Care home facilities.

You work in area with some female dominated professions. Inconvienence from Maternity leave is an occupational reality here.

Paulzx

Scortho wrote: »

If your genuinely sick you go get a cert. you get paid your wages as a result of producing cert. uncertified sick leave shouldn't be paid. We're bankrupt and can't afford it. Also it encourages people to take 3.5 days extra leave. If its in your contract that you get 3.5 days uncertified to me that's 3 extra long weekends.
On your other point I don't think it would. Most frontline staff do shift work. Secondly the situation that a doctor can certify you sick for 5 days when you'll only be sick for one day is absurd.

It is in its arse 3 long weekends. In my workplace sick is monitored for patterns. If you took 3 long weekends of uncertified it will be flagged and you'll probably be hauled in and warned. I have seen it happen to plenty of people.

You can belittle uncertified all you want but there is no doubt it avoids longer term sick when only a day is required for an illness.

Hybernian Angel

RainyDay wrote: »

It dropped in calibre when you told us that you 'know' that some people on certified leave are 'pulling a fast one' but you failed to explain the source of your knowledge.

This isn't a post to discuss how S/L is determined. It's a post highlighting the fact that S/L and absenteisim is a major problem in the HSE. Replacing a secretary or admin staff can be coped with without danger to the patients we take care of. Replacing an experienced nurse or HCA is much more serious. This isn't a matter to create arguement - it's simply highlighting a fact.

RainyDay

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

RainyDay wrote: »

It dropped in calibre when you told us that you 'know' that some people on certified leave are 'pulling a fast one' but you failed to explain the source of your knowledge.[/quote

This isn't a post to discuss how S/L is determined. It's a post highlighting the fact that S/L and absenteisim is a major problem in the HSE. Replacing a secretary or admin staff can be coped with without danger to the patients we take care of. Replacing an experienced nurse or HCA is much more serious. This isn't a matter to create arguement - it's simply highlighting a fact.

Indeed, sick leave is a major problem - largely because managers fail to step up to the plate and manage.

Hybernian Angel

You're probably right !.

Stepping Stone

For what it is worth, I know someone involved with student nurse placement. They said that this is a huge issue for them, because they will get complaints from the managers, etc in the hospitals. Student calls in sick for a few days or gets a cert and comes back with a tan.

It is obvious to everyone what is going on, but it only happens with one or two individuals who know they can get away with it and it spreads because apart from forcing them to make up the time, there is nothing they can do. Some placements won't have them back, but it falls on this person to make sure that they complete the required placement somewhere.

This kinda thing happens everywhere, I suspect that it is easier to get away with it in some places than others and therein lies the problem. While a manager might do their best, especially in a massive area like the HSE, they might not be backed up properly and I think it happens.

KilOit

5 years in the HSE and never took s/l :cool:
I'd say i'm a member of a very small minority. i work in a team of 18 and 6 were sick today and yesterday!

RainyDay

Stepping Stone wrote: »

For what it is worth, I know someone involved with student nurse placement. They said that this is a huge issue for them, because they will get complaints from the managers, etc in the hospitals. Student calls in sick for a few days or gets a cert and comes back with a tan.

Perhaps you haven't heard about these kinds of tans;

Stepping Stone wrote: »

It is obvious to everyone what is going on, but it only happens with one or two individuals who know they can get away with it and it spreads because apart from forcing them to make up the time, there is nothing they can do. Some placements won't have them back, but it falls on this person to make sure that they complete the required placement somewhere.

Why is there 'nothing they can do'? Why don't they implement the standard sick leave management policy that applies to all staff, and remove the privilige of uncertified leave from those who abuse it?

KilOit wrote: »

5 years in the HSE and never took s/l :cool:
I'd say i'm a member of a very small minority. i work in a team of 18 and 6 were sick today and yesterday!

That's mad - what is your manager doing about it?

not yet

Stepping Stone wrote: »

For what it is worth, I know someone involved with student nurse placement. They said that this is a huge issue for them, because they will get complaints from the managers, etc in the hospitals. Student calls in sick for a few days or gets a cert and comes back with a tan.

It is obvious to everyone what is going on, but it only happens with one or two individuals who know they can get away with it and it spreads because apart from forcing them to make up the time, there is nothing they can do. Some placements won't have them back, but it falls on this person to make sure that they complete the required placement somewhere.

This kinda thing happens everywhere, I suspect that it is easier to get away with it in some places than others and therein lies the problem. While a manager might do their best, especially in a massive area like the HSE, they might not be backed up properly and I think it happens.

A tan in two days you say.....

KilOit

RainyDay wrote: »

That's mad - what is your manager doing about it?

Not a whole lot!
the usual back to work meetings happen but at the end of the day it amounts to nothing! it would affect the person from moving up in the workplace though, no manager wants someone with high sick leave.

not yet

KilOit wrote: »

Not a whole lot!
the usual back to work meetings happen but at the end of the day it amounts to nothing! it would affect the person from moving up in the workplace though, no manager wants someone with high sick leave.

How is being blocked from promotion nothing..

Stepping Stone

not yet wrote: »

A tan in two days you say.....

Eh, on. I explained that badly. I meant that I was told that there are a few serial sick day people identified even at student level. It will be a day here, two days there, but the record stacks up. A few have taken certified sick leave when they knew they wouldn't get to take holidays, like Christmas, etc or when they know too many people are off and will come back with tans that are not fake.

The point that I was trying to make., and I made a mess of it, is that the HSE is such a massive., disorganized monster that is is hard to crack down properly on these things. Particularly in the case of students who will be out the door in 6 weeks, etc. The college will receive a complaint, but realistically there isn't much they can do.

This applies to a minority of cases, but it is an issue. Someone will identify a way of exploiting the system and take advantage.

KilOit

not yet wrote: »

How is being blocked from promotion nothing..

They're already on max increment pulling in 35k+ they don't care that much, it's generally the young mothers or old biddy's near retirement age that just turn up every so often to do a small bit of work that call in sick once every 2 weeks.

not yet

KilOit wrote: »

They're already on max increment pulling in 35k+ they don't care that much, it's generally the young mothers or old biddy's near retirement age that just turn up every so often to do a small bit of work that call in sick once every 2 weeks.

How in the name of sweet jesus can you call in sick every 2 weeks. PS workers have 3.5 days a year USL. So assuming they use them in the first 3.5 weeks of the year are you then saying they get a cert every two weeks @ 60e a go....

Works out at approx 1440e per year in certs!!!

KilOit

not yet wrote: »

How in the name of sweet jesus can you call in sick every 2 weeks. PS workers have 3.5 days a year USL. So assuming they use them in the first 3.5 weeks of the year are you then saying they get a cert every two weeks @ 60e a go....

Works out at approx 1440e per year in certs!!!

Most of the sick days i see aren't one day at a time, they're generally a week of sick days covered with a cert, in my area this will only count has 1 instance of sick and be treated just like 1 day sick.
I used 1 day sick every 2 weeks as a estimate as how often someone is sick, not to be taken literally, sorry.
as for paying the gp i have no idea, some are so lazy i could see them paying for it rather than work but i will cover them for the week.

1 or 2 have medical cards, more would probably have gp cards but i can't say for certain. HSE seems to attract a unhealthy gene pool with chronic health problems i find

not yet

KilOit wrote: »

Most of the sick days i see aren't one day at a time, they're generally a week of sick days covered with a cert, in my area this will only count has 1 instance of sick and be treated just like 1 day sick.
I used 1 day sick every 2 weeks as a estimate as how often someone is sick, not to be taken literally, sorry.
as for paying the gp i have no idea, some are so lazy i could see them paying for it rather than work but i will cover them for the week.

1 or 2 have medical cards, more would probably have gp cards but i can't say for certain. HSE seems to attract a unhealthy gene pool with chronic health problems i find

I have to take offence at parts of this post, Firstly a week is not taken as one instance, it is taken as seven days. If you pass 15 days you are called in for a ''talk''. Secondly Saying any dept attracts an unhealthy gene pool is really demeaning to staff you are taking sick leave honestly.

KilOit

A "talk" haha yeah seen many of them alright, goes nowhere!