Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

CollardGreens

Has anyone hit on the race cards yet? I haven't seen that and we don't want to leave anything out as long as we are touching all the subjects that bring out the sweets.

Whites,
Blacks,
Mixed,
Yellow,
Brown,
American,
Brits,
Canadians,
.............:rolleyes:


Y'all with me, keep up! :cool:

Boo2112

MadsL wrote: »

I said - for those posters having trouble reading "At an early age and through puberty"

An early age is not 18 months regarding sexuality or gender identity. You're barely aware you exist at all ffs!

wolfpawnat

Boombastic wrote: »

God hates me because I wear trousers but the pope wears a dress

He's special!

MadsL wrote: »

So a "professional" opinion is needed?

I was merely answering your question on why some would suggest that professional assessment may be required. At no stage would I attempt to stifle any child's right to be who they are truly are, but some children go through phases, others, it is not a phase but discovering their true identity. A professional in that field would merely aid the child and it's parents in a healthy way to make accepting themselves easier and how to deal with less understanding people, would you not agree?

Boombastic

CollardGreens wrote: »

Has anyone hit on the race cards yet? I haven't seen that and we don't want to leave anything out as long as we are touching all the subjects that bring out the sweets.

Whites,
Blacks,
Mixed,
Yellow,
Brown,
American,
Brits,
Canadians,
.............:rolleyes:


Y'all with me, keep up! :cool:

Too late Americans were blamed posts ago :pac:

ashers22

Sinfonia wrote: »

What's your expertise to assert that:

Have you met every transgendered person?

I'm not trying to start anything here but I really don't know what it's like for everyone else. Have you always instinctively known what gender you are? (cuz I didn't, ever as far as I remember)

Boombastic

The child was offered the option of using the nurses toilet, why was this not an acceptable compromise?

CollardGreens

Too late Americans were blamed posts ago

yeah, I know - It's George Bush's fault and he probably wears a dress right?!

MadsL

Sinfonia wrote: »

What's your expertise?

Not mine - the experiences of the transgendered.

Like many of you, I've come to accept that I'm Trans at 39 after feeling that something was wrong from the age of 5. Never liked being male, hate 'male' things like football, wrestling, never had a male body always skinny with small hands and feet.

Ive wanted to be female since the age of 5. Ive tried to lead a normal life but things caught up with me last November where i was considering suicide.

Like many transgender people i have always felt that i was in the wrong body , i have never liked to dress as a male

Two years ago, in desperation, having read much on the internet, I plucked up courage and went to see my to my GP in Kent. She did not know how to deal with me and focused our discussion entirely on the potenntial effects on my wife. She told me to think about it some more. I told my wife. She was amazingly very sympathetic and very sorry for me having had to live life since early childhood with dysphoria

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

CollardGreens

but the pope wears a dress

I like the red shoes and big hat myself!

(he would never make it far in Texas with that big hat)

DonkeyStyle \o/

Each to their own.
I have to ask though, even if the 6 year old was living as a boy, what's the big deal about using the girl's toilets? There are stalls, you close the door and nobody has to look at your equipment.
I know all men are rapists and perverts, but that shouldn't kick in for years.

MadsL

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He's special!



I was merely answering your question on why some would suggest that professional assessment may be required. At no stage would I attempt to stifle any child's right to be who they are truly are, but some children go through phases, others, it is not a phase but discovering their true identity. A professional in that field would merely aid the child and it's parents in a healthy way to make accepting themselves easier and how to deal with less understanding people, would you not agree?

Possibly. It is also possible Coy will "grow out of it" - nothing the parents have done is any more permanent than ask the school for accommodation. The nurses station was the compromise, but it wasn't happening, Coy was being forced to use the boys toilet.

Astonishing how wound up people get about other people's bodies though.

G.K.

MadsL wrote: »

So a "professional" opinion is needed?

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Ever hear of professional psychologists?
Maybe the parents should have consulted with one(at least) and asked them what they thought, after all even young adults who are confused about their gender go for therapy before making huge decisions..so why should it be different for parents the parents of this child who decided to dress up the child as a girl from 18 months old?

Apparently, a professional opinion has been given.

Boo2112 wrote: »

Since when is puberty 18 months? Do you have kids? My brother was fully convinced he was a dog when he was 3, he insisted we called him brownie and would crawl around on all fours but I'm pretty sure if you asked him now he'd be happy we didn't take this as a sign that he was a dog in a boys body and feed him dogfood, let him run naked on a lead or make him poop outside.

Because your gender and thinking you are a dog are the same thing... I don't see you making the same comparison to kids where the mind and body are congruous - but surely they are too young to decide also?

LizT wrote: »

My brother used to play dress up with me and my sister when we were younger. I better ring him and make sure he realizes he's transgender.

Point me to where anyone who's said that all children who did anything like that are transgender. If anyone said that they are wrong, but it is also true that trans children will, by and large, gravitate toward the toys and clothes that suit them, not those that society expects them too.

CollardGreens

Maybe they should have a mixed gay couple holding semi-auto AR-15's with high capacity magazines in the bathrooms keeping the children in their own stalls

Boo2112

Boombastic wrote: »

The child was offered the option of using the nurses toilet, why was this not an acceptable compromise?

Yeah in fairness its obviously not a decision the school made on a whim, its not like they were forcing the child to go in the boys toilet. Plus if anyone is ruining her education it is the parents, what does needing a p1ss have to do with english or maths.

G.K.

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly. It is also possible Coy will "grow out of it" - nothing the parents have done is any more permanent than ask the school for accommodation. The nurses station was the compromise, but it wasn't happening, Coy was being forced to use the boys toilet.

Astonishing how wound up people get about other people's bodies though.

^this^

If it's a phase or whatever Coy will grow out of it, and will not be comfortable living as a female. For those who want proof that gender isn't taught? Check out David Reimer's case.

But if it's not a phase, stopping Coy from living as a girl will only have negative effects for her.

Sinfonia

MadsL wrote: »

Not mine - the experiences of the transgendered.

So you don't have any expertise then. So you're just talking, in grand brush strokes, about the 'experiences' of the transgendered. Then you quote four cases as if to prove that - as you said - "most say they have always known"; which is pretty useless unless there are only seven transgendered people.
Yet you feel it's a good method of argument to cast dispersions on the level of expertise of others.

How come you aren't actually debating the topic? How should the school have dealt with the situation?

wolfpawnat

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly. It is also possible Coy will "grow out of it" - nothing the parents have done is any more permanent than ask the school for accommodation. The nurses station was the compromise, but it wasn't happening, Coy was being forced to use the boys toilet.

Astonishing how wound up people get about other people's bodies though.

In many cases, I believe it is lack of understanding, not even in the way of not knowing, but it is very difficult to grasp what another is going through, so to try and grasp something as huge as GID is beyond most of us.

And there are a few who are weirded out by it, believe it is unnatural and believe that it is "attention seeking" but sadly as much as wish their mind-frame didn't exist, it does.

I just hope that Coy is making these decisions and no one is forcing them upon the child, because only then it would be damaging. Some people know at a young age they are different to their body, others only come to the realisation later in life (well so I have read/seen on tv)

CollardGreens

If it's a phase or whatever Coy will grow out of it, and will not be comfortable living as a female. For those who want proof that gender isn't taught? Check out David Reimer's case.

But if it's not a phase, stopping Coy from living as a girl will only have negative effects for her.

Y'all can make this easy. Just look between the legs and go with whatever is given. How can something so simple be made so complex.

Czarcasm

MadsL wrote: »

Already a lot of people on this thread have no clue what transgender means.

There's always one.

They say the child was presenting as female at 18 months. I can remember the most my child could do back then was roll over on his back and crap himself.

So how the parents were able to make any sort of discernable diagnosis is quite frankly beyond me.

I remember at about three he walked out of the bedroom in his mothers dress and heels. I told him go back in and take off his mothers clothes. He did it because he knew he'd get attention. He didn't do it because he was transgendered.

What the parents (why is it always the mother thrusting her son into the media spotlight and then hogging all the limelight herself with these "princess boys"?) are doing here is reinforcing a behaviour that is an early stage child development but they are carrying it on way past the normal stage and forcing the child into confronting and defining their gender identity much sooner than they would have done in normal child development stages.

If the parents actually cared about the child's welfare, the last thing they would be doing is dragging the child on a national daytime tv talk show, they would be trying to give the child as normal a life as possible, not just using him to push their own agenda.

This child shouldn't have the language to express their gender identity at such a young age and may well end up with body dysmorphia in their adolescent years.

While the mother might think she is being all progressive and liberal (the father in these cases is usually a weak minded individual cuckolded into going along with the idea for the sake of a bit of peace and quiet!), she is actually doing more harm to the child than good by putting them in the media glare like that because the child sees all the attention they're getting and the conditioning kicks in. The real problems though start for the child when the cameras move on to the next trans child story, effectively taking away their attention from the child.

The mother while trying to say she is breaking gender stereotypes, is actually reinforcing gender stereotypes in the child, only making it worse by actually doing it in a complete àrse about face fashion, trying to convince a boy he's a girl and having him wear stereotypically female clothing. Why couldn't he present as female dressed in stereotypically boys clothing?

G.K.

CollardGreens wrote: »

Y'all can make this easy. Just look between the legs and go with whatever is given. How can something so simple be made so complex.

Because it isn't 'so simple'. That's simply the truth.

Unless you are denying that trans people exist?

MadsL

Boo2112 wrote: »

An early age is not 18 months regarding sexuality or gender identity. You're barely aware you exist at all ffs!

What age should you listen to a child about their gender identity? Everyone being exactly the same and all. This child has been saying this from the age of four until as they are now, seven. Is that "early age" acceptable now?

Or should they not listen until 10, 12, 13?

MadsL

CollardGreens wrote: »

Y'all can make this easy. Just look between the legs and go with whatever is given. How can something so simple be made so complex.

And if you see both a penis AND a vagina?

ashers22

G.K. wrote: »

not those that society expects them too.

probably key to the discussion, gender is a societal expectation. I'm the gender society expects me to be (despite the fact that I don't want to fulfill those expectations most of the time) Granted society may feel it requires these roles in order to function but for some people it can be forceful if it's not in their nature.
I would be concerned however that the child is very young to make decisions either way, not displaying typical gender traits doesn't make a trans. (it makes society a bish)

G.K.

Czarcasm wrote: »

The mother while trying to say she is breaking gender stereotypes, is actually reinforcing gender stereotypes in the child, only making it worse by actually doing it in a complete àrse about face fashion, trying to convince a boy he's a girl and having him wear stereotypically female clothing. Why couldn't he present as female dressed in stereotypically boys clothing?

This doesn't work. As I said before, look at David Reimer. They tried to convince him that he was a girl, and he even had the equipment, but he knew something was wrong.

If this is the case with this child, they will know.

MadsL

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's always one.

They say the child was presenting as female at 18 months. I can remember the most my child could do back then was roll over on his back and crap himself.

So how the parents were able to make any sort of discernable diagnosis is quite frankly beyond me.

I remember at about three he walked out of the bedroom in his mothers dress and heels. I told him go back in and take off his mothers clothes. He did it because he knew he'd get attention. He didn't do it because he was transgendered.

What the parents (why is it always the mother thrusting her son into the media spotlight and then hogging all the limelight herself with these "princess boys"?) are doing here is reinforcing a behaviour that is an early stage child development but they are carrying it on way past the normal stage and forcing the child into confronting and defining their gender identity much sooner than they would have done in normal child development stages.

If the parents actually cared about the child's welfare, the last thing they would be doing is dragging the child on a national daytime tv talk show, they would be trying to give the child as normal a life as possible, not just using him to push their own agenda.

This child shouldn't have the language to express their gender identity at such a young age and may well end up with body dysmorphia in their adolescent years.

While the mother might think she is being all progressive and liberal (the father in these cases is usually a weak minded individual cuckolded into going along with the idea for the sake of a bit of peace and quiet!), she is actually doing more harm to the child than good by putting them in the media glare like that because the child sees all the attention they're getting and the conditioning kicks in. The real problems though start for the child when the cameras move on to the next trans child story, effectively taking away their attention from the child.

The mother while trying to say she is breaking gender stereotypes, is actually reinforcing gender stereotypes in the child, only making it worse by actually doing it in a complete àrse about face fashion, trying to convince a boy he's a girl and having him wear stereotypically female clothing. Why couldn't he present as female dressed in stereotypically boys clothing?

Tell me - what would you have done had your three year old insisted in wearing a dress first day at Kindergarten having persistently wanting to wear his sisters dresses for the last year?

Boo2112

G.K. wrote: »

^this^

If it's a phase or whatever Coy will grow out of it, and will not be comfortable living as a female. For those who want proof that gender isn't taught? Check out David Reimer's case.

But if it's not a phase, stopping Coy from living as a girl will only have negative effects for her.

Is it not harder for her to grow out of it, if it is a phase, once all this fuss has been made? I just think that this is more than being supportive tbh. And I think most of us would agree that gender isn't taught but the child is still barely old enough to make decisions and is quite impressionable still. I guess she won't know for years for sure if she is or not but surely the parent should give her the oppertunity to work that out for herself rather than go all guns blazing into a school and single her out.

Jester252

XX = Female
XY = Male
You can't beat basic biology

CollardGreens

And if you see both a penis AND a vagina?

I would feel lucky and go on a game show?

G.K.

Jester252 wrote: »

XX = Female
XY = Male
You can't beat basic biology

Fail. Ever heard of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Essentially, it produces XY Females, some of whom are even capable of giving birth. Plenty more things like that too.

melekalikimaka

MadsL wrote: »

Tell me - what would you have done had your three year old insisted in wearing a dress first day at Kindergarten having persistently wanting to wear his sisters dresses for the last year?

So wearing a dress over trousers defines your sexuality? pfft these comments are away with the fairies

ashers22

melekalikimaka wrote: »

So wearing a dress over trousers defines your sexuality? pfft these comments are away with the fairies

I know you're a big guy and could kick the crap out of me...

but gender has nothing to do with sexuality

G.K.

ashers22 wrote: »

probably key to the discussion, gender is a societal expectation. I'm the gender society expects me to be (despite the fact that I don't want to fulfill those expectations most of the time) Granted society may feel it requires these roles in order to function but for some people it can be forceful if it's not in their nature.
I would be concerned however that the child is very young to make decisions either way, not displaying typical gender traits doesn't make a trans.

Oh, I agree completely here, and don't let anything I say make you think otherwise.

However, all the child is doing is saying what they feel, nothing permanent is happening. The only decision being made is by the parents, to allow the kid to live as a girl for now. If the child is trans, then what they do is nothing out of the ordinary for them. They are just living their life.

Boo2112 wrote: »

Is it not harder for her to grow out of it, if it is a phase, once all this fuss has been made? I just think that this is more than being supportive tbh. And I think most of us would agree that gender isn't taught but the child is still barely old enough to make decisions and is quite impressionable still. I guess she won't know for years for sure if she is or not but surely the parent should give her the oppertunity to work that out for herself rather than go all guns blazing into a school and single her out.

It seems she's been certain for 3 years from the age of 4 onwards. This issue with bathrooms only flared up over the winter.

CollardGreens

Fail. Ever heard of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Essentially, it produces XY Females, some of whom are even capable of giving birth. Plenty more things like that too.

Ok, do tell and I want pictures too!

Boombastic

MadsL wrote: »

Tell me - what would you have done had your three year old insisted in wearing a dress first day at Kindergarten having persistently wanting to wear his sisters dresses for the last year?

What if a girl insisted on wearing trousers? Social norms don't identify gender

Furious_George

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly. It is also possible Coy will "grow out of it" - nothing the parents have done is any more permanent than ask the school for accommodation. The nurses station was the compromise, but it wasn't happening, Coy was being forced to use the boys toilet.

Astonishing how wound up people get about other people's bodies though.

You came on here tonight with an agenda to paint everyone as a bigot and show how great and liberal you are. I think you have achieved the opposite. Boardsies have come across as liberal with the vast majority saying that once a child reaches an age that he/she is old enough to make large important decisions then the child should be supported regardless of what gender they choose. i am aware choose is the wrong word here but cant think of another.

you have on the other hand come across as unreasonable and agressive. People rightly or wrongly are expressing concern for the childs welfare due to choices made by the parents. That does not constitute an attack on transgendered people. If you are too closed minded in your opinions of others to see that then you are at fault and not other posters.

melekalikimaka

ashers22 wrote: »

I know you're a big guy and could kick the crap out of me...

but gender has nothing to do with sexuality

in your opinion

TheChizler

I think most of us could agree the wording of the article doesn't help things? When I first read it it seemed like the parents decided at 18 months that they wanted a girl instead. Rereading it I'm pretty confident 18 months only refers to them looking back and saying that maybe there were signs. Bit of a red herring. And possibly biased reporting.

ashers22

melekalikimaka wrote: »

in your opinion

ha, maybe you're a little guy so, must have confused you with someone else. Believe what you want to believe man.

meoklmrk91

Seriously difficult one.

Right, I don't think the parents are child abusers, I really think that they are trying to do the absolute best for their child. I don't think any parent would wish for a transgender child, I don't mean that badly, just that it is not an easy life as you will always have ignorance and bigotry to deal with, life is hard enough without that so I don't think any parent would want that for their child. So I think it is quiet unfair to call them child abusers.

I highly doubt that one day the child played with a doll and the mother saw him and decided that he must be transgender and went out and bought him a whole new wardrobe of girls clothes. They took her to a psychologist and she was diagnosed as being transgender. Now fair enough I think 4 is a little young to be diagnosing this but if you were a parent in this situation and you took your child to a doctor and they gave them the diagnosis you have two choices, ignore it or try and do everything in your power to support your kid. These people obviously chose the latter.

I don't know any transgender people but I would imagine that it is very difficult to be a child, have no real way to explain how you feel inside and be labeled as something that every fibre of your being tells you you're not. It must be incredibly lonely. I would also imagine that if you had supportive parents who helped you then it would make things a whole lot easier.

Maybe if we weren't in the habit of putting kids in boxes then there would be no need for transgender so young. Go into your local toy shop and walk down the isles, look at the girls stuff, it's all pink, purple etc. Look down the boys it's blues, blacks, reds etc. From the day a baby is born its put in a blue or pink baby grow. I remember picking out some a toy for my toddler nephew, it was a talking dog, they had 2 versions, one green and one pink, why? What is the point of this. Would the green one not suit both? Why does everything have to be one or the other? And why the feck at this age are there even girl and boy toys there is no need of it. Leave them grow into what they want to be.

Czarcasm

MadsL wrote: »

Tell me - what would you have done had your three year old insisted in wearing a dress first day at Kindergarten having persistently wanting to wear his sisters dresses for the last year?

I'd have simply said "No! Now cop the fcuk on and finish your ready brek and go in and brush your teeth!".

I try to instill a sense of practical responsibility in my child before I'd indulge his fashion sense tbh.

A parent's duty is to guide their child, not drive them over the bloody cliff!

Jester252

G.K. wrote: »

Fail. Ever heard of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Essentially, it produces XY Females, some of whom are even capable of giving birth. Plenty more things like that too.

Fail. AIS XY females have no uterus but have testes. Better luck next time

Cavehill Red

Jester252 wrote: »

Fail AIS XY females have no uterus but have testes. Better luck next time

I love it when people reach for preposterous and ridiculously rare examples to try and disprove common sense, only for their own example to come and bite them back on the ass.

April O Neill

MadsL wrote: »

What sex is someone born with both sexes genitalia? How would you raise them?

Is this the case in the story in the OP? If not, why bring this up?

CollardGreens

Fail. AIS XY females have no uterus but have testes. Better luck next time

What??? Still no pictures?

This is like the history channel...or cartoons.

MadsL

Furious_George wrote: »

You came on here tonight with an agenda to paint everyone as a bigot and show how great and liberal you are. I think you have achieved the opposite. Boardsies have come across as liberal with the vast majority saying that once a child reaches an age that he/she is old enough to make large important decisions then the child should be supported regardless of what gender they choose. i am aware choose is the wrong word here but cant think of another.

you have on the other hand come across as unreasonable and agressive. People rightly or wrongly are expressing concern for the childs welfare due to choices made by the parents. That does not constitute an attack on transgendered people. If you are too closed minded in your opinions of others to see that then you are at fault and not other posters.

I think you need to re-read the thread if you think the vast majority were supportive? Especially page 1.

Now do stop with your makey-uppy "agenda" that I'm supposed to have, the classic "attack a liberal" position. ohhh "The Agenda!!" Please.

As for concern for the child's welfare could you please explain to me what age the parents are supposed to start listening to their child's explanation of their gender identity? 26?

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'd have simply said "No! Now cop the fcuk on and finish your ready brek and go in and brush your teeth!".

I try to instill a sense of practical responsibility in my child before I'd indulge his fashion sense tbh.

A parent's duty is to guide their child, not drive them over the bloody cliff!

I see. Being transgendered is a cliff to be driven off.

What age would you allow it to happen after being constantly pestered to wear dresses? 6? 10? Never?

Boo2112

Does anyone know why the ban was put in place actually? Kinda limited here with the phone. Was there a complaint put in or was it just brought up in a meeting or something?

MadsL

April O Neill wrote: »

Is this the case in the story in the OP? If not, why bring this up?

That the definition of gender is not as simple as posters here make out. It is not simply a case of looking between your legs, and for kids such as Coy, genitalia does not define their gender. That's the point I was making.

Madam_X

Acting like the opposite gender does not define your gender either.

Genitalia kinda does define one's gender really though - otherwise transgendered people wouldn't be having those operations to change their genitalia to that of the gender which they identify as.

CollardGreens

That the definition of gender is not as simple as posters here make out. It is not simply a case of looking between your legs, and for kids such as Coy, genitalia does not define their gender. That's the point I was making.

....shakes head in disbelief, walks away......

JJayoo

poor kid.