"The Troika has done more damage to Ireland than Britain ever did in 800 years"

nesf

From Mr. David Begg of ICTU: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9898920/EU-Troika-rule-in-Ireland-worse-than-British-Empire.html

Yup. I mean the Property Tax, totally worse than the Famine(s).

I'm not so much angry about this statement, more befuddled by it. I mean Begg surely isn't so ignorant of history that he thinks the relatively minor recession (go and have a read of the history and impact of the Great Depression on ordinary people) we've had is anything compared to some of the darker patches of British Rule over Ireland is he? Or is he banking on the members of his group being this ignorant?

My main hope is the Telegraph (sigh) are quoting him out of context but I can't for the life of me figure out what kind of context these statements work in other than "David, say something about the Troika so completely unbelievable that no one with any sense will take it seriously."

mike65

That would be David Begg well paid Union boss and a Director of the Central Bank would it?

FreudianSlippers

Sure, 1 million dead and a 25% drop in population; but pay for fecking water?! Evil.

Also, the 1980s Irish recession was worse than this tbh.

nesf

mike65 wrote: »

That would be David Begg well paid Union boss and a Director of the Central Bank would it?

Yup. Is he still a Director? I thought he gave that up.

Bigus

Troika only forced the gov to do what should have been done the week they were elected, missed opportunity for cost cutting that would be starting to be forgiven in time for the next election had they done it then instead of now.

seamus

Begg is the embodiment of everything that's wrong with Irish trade unions, both public and private. Completely separated from reality, no sense of the bigger picture outside of protecting the money in their pockets.

One PS Union leader last week was saying on the radio that delaying increments was taking food out of people's mouths. How can someone miss money that they've never had?

golfball37

The Troika have done nothing wrong to us. Anything bad that has happened here we have done to ourselves.

I would personally rather be part of a re-designed UK than continue on having FF/FG/LAB Vichy governments. These 3 parties and their cheerleaders have inflicted fatal damage on what was once a noble idea of a state. Its long since been morally bankrupt and now financially.

David of course doesn't realise that many things we've ever had in terms of organised social groupings such as unions all came from being ruled by Britain.

GRMA

He's wrong of course.

The bank bailout, guarantee etc was the worst political decision made by politicians in Ireland since the act of Union - very similar transfers of debt onto the Irish people too

spank_inferno

The "800 years" bullsh*t is always contrary to historical fact.

Whenever I hear that tired old line I always think of "what did the Romans ever do for us".

Scofflaw

Some splendid comments there. I particularly liked:

Vote UKIP Ireland. Free yourselves and the rest of the UK with you!

amused,
Scofflaw

goose2005

spank_inferno wrote: »

The "800 years" bullsh*t is always contrary to historical fact.

Whenever I hear that tired old line I always think of "what did the Romans ever do for us".

Exactly, the interactions between Irish people, British people and Irish and British states and leaders over several centuries can't just be simplified to that old fable of "oppression".

An Coilean

goose2005 wrote: »

Exactly, the interactions between Irish people, British people and Irish and British states and leaders over several centuries can't just be simplified to that old fable of "oppression".

Nor can the very real and often brutal oppression inflicted by the English Kingdom / British state be ignored and expunged from the record.
It was a persistant and ocasionally extream feature of British preseance on this island, burrying your head in the sand and dismissing it as a fable is simply nonsence.

Sponge Bob

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Also, the 1980s Irish recession was worse than this tbh.

Not sure about that. The 1980s Irish recession was worse than this in Urban areas like Cork and Dublin, for sure.

This one is as bad or worse in rural areas and small towns though.

But the Troika did not cause the current recession, no siree Bob!

The 1980s and current recessions cannot be blamed on the Brits either.

Scofflaw

goose2005, An Coilean, don't even think about turning this into a standard recitation/argument about British wrongs. The result will be an immediate ban for a minimum of a week.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Ronan|Raven

The man is deluded beyond all belief.

bmaxi

Still nothing like a bit of Brit bashing to make Paddy forget who is really responsible for his problems.

Scofflaw

bmaxi wrote: »

Still nothing like a bit of Brit bashing to make Paddy forget who is really responsible for his problems.

When things go wrong we've never had a problem standing up and admitting it was nothing to do with us.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ardmacha

I suspect this quote in the publication in which it appeared, at best it is out of context. You may or may not agree with Begg in his general view of the world, but I very much doubt that he is ignorant of history and as someone involved with Trocaire I doubt if he minimises the famine.

Happyman42

Scofflaw wrote: »

When things go wrong we've never had a problem standing up and admitting it was nothing to do with us.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Perhaps the reason things 'go wrong' is because the 'right' people have never stood up and said 'that's wrong', both to the British and to our own. Our recent troubles have never been attributed to the 'right' people who did the 'wrong' things.

hyperborean

Happyman42 wrote: »

Perhaps the reason things 'go wrong' is because the 'right' people have never stood up and said 'that's wrong', both to the British and to our own. Our recent troubles have never been attributed to the 'right' people who did the 'wrong' things.

Maybe Ireland is a tiny little country with limited talent and thinking that there were people in Ireland that could have stopped the recession is plain wrong and lacking understanding of the global economic dynamic.

nesf

ardmacha wrote: »

I suspect this quote in the publication in which it appeared, at best it is out of context. You may or may not agree with Begg in his general view of the world, but I very much doubt that he is ignorant of history and as someone involved with Trocaire I doubt if he minimises the famine.

What context does it sound sensible in though?

Happyman42

hyperborean wrote: »

global economic dynamic.

It's not the 'global economic dynamic' that has Seanie sent for trial today, it's an altogether different 'talent'!

megafan

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Sure, 1 million dead and a 25% drop in population; but pay for fecking water?! Evil.

Also, the 1980s Irish recession was worse than this tbh.

Different times we now have phones & other fancy technological improvements in commutation & transport but have we the same attitude from the great & the good of our new rulers? Ireland was a country to make money from lending to & now they want their money back & we're still a country to make money from + the longer this recession continues it's even more lucrative with even higher interest rates..... & The moneyed countries of europe have little concern about the suffering of the people of the PIGSs after all it's all their fault for being greedy in the first place!!

& in the 1980s we were kinda in control of our own destiny as we controlled our own currency to a certain extent & had relatively little to lose

This all reminds me of South Park - the one about the Mormons.

When these people talk, all I hear is... "Davig Begg, dumb, de, dumb, dumb"

It sums up the attitude of many people in this country. Not because of the glaring inaccuracy of what he said, but because I'm sure of the fact that a majority of people will hear it and think "Yeah! You tell 'em, David. Us Irish are the best in the world - its everyone else that's keeping us down."

the_syco

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

This all reminds me of South Park - the one about the Mormons.

When these people talk, all I hear is... "Davig Begg, dumb, de, dumb, dumb"

It sums up the attitude of many people in this country. Not because of the glaring inaccuracy of what he said, but because I'm sure of the fact that a majority of people will hear it and think "Yeah! You tell 'em, David. Us Irish are the best in the world - its everyone else that's keeping us down."

Sadly this is true. For some reason the uneducated masses blame europe for the cuts, rather than the government for throwing money everywhere except where it should've been spent, and we are now paying for this fcukup.

Happyman42

the_syco wrote: »

Sadly this is true. For some reason the uneducated masses blame europe for the cuts, rather than the government for throwing money everywhere except where it should've been spent, and we are now paying for this fcukup.

Successive governments couldn't have gotten away with what they did and continue to do without the aquiesence and votes of the 'educated masses'.

djpbarry

golfball37 wrote: »

I would personally rather be part of a re-designed UK than continue on having FF/FG/LAB Vichy governments.

Careful what you wish for - things ain't exactly rosey over here.

KyussBishop

the_syco wrote: »

Sadly this is true. For some reason the uneducated masses blame europe for the cuts, rather than the government for throwing money everywhere except where it should've been spent, and we are now paying for this fcukup.

Europe are to blame for the cuts, because the failure to build-in a recovery mechanism when putting together the single currency, and the current political failure to negotiate a recovery mechanism now, are a collective failure of the EU, and are what necessitates the cuts now.

People look solely at the causes of the crisis, and fail to look at the full range of solutions, so are content to say "it's country 'x's fault for the state they are in, therefore they deserve everything they get", even when what that country gets is a ridiculously punitive/destructive form of collective punishment and is not even remotely necessary (that last part is the most important, and is the bit people like to assume-away).


It's fairly easy to put together policies that immediately start to end the crisis, and which mutually benefit every member state (including Germany, due to the increase in economic activity), but it is purely politics and outdated neoliberal economics holding that back.

The EU has a range of options, from centralized bonds (which would be sold on the bond markets, not bought by individual countries governments, as is the way this is often straw-manned), to outright monetary financing, which are tools which can be put to use to almost immediately solve the crisis, and there is no economic impediment to using them, only political.


For all the bluster about fiscal sovereignty this generates, there is always the ignoring that fiscal sovereignty has already been breached many many times so far (and that loss of monetary policy itself, inherently limits fiscal policy, as every country forced into austerity is experiencing), and especially, ignoring that the EU will not survive the decade without something very close to these recovery policies.

The entire EU situation basically comes down to a choice between either 1: implementing recovery policies which involve stimulus through bonds and/or monetary financing, or 2: ending the single currency and restoring local currencies and local control over monetary policy (which for all its destructiveness, is less destructive in the long run, compared to what happens in the absence of '1').

If people argue '1' is not going to happen, then there is absolutely no sense in delaying '2', on the hope that recovery policies might still happen.