Rent increase, thoughts

TheOldHand

Its pretty easy to define. The PRTB will accept the rent you paid on the day your tenancy began as market rate. The movement in rental prices from that date will serve as the best guide to market rent.

MMAGirl

TheOldHand wrote: »

Its pretty easy to define. The PRTB will accept the rent you paid on the day your tenancy began as market rate. The movement in rental prices from that date will serve as the best guide to market rent.

Think about what you have just said there.
Just like in the other thread where you are being told you have a problem with comprehending a situation, here you are doing the very same thing.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

Its pretty easy to define. The PRTB will accept the rent you paid on the day your tenancy began as market rate. The movement in rental prices from that date will serve as the best guide to market rent.

in your opinion. There is nothing that defines this. So essentially your wrong.

TheOldHand

D3PO wrote: »

in your opinion. There is nothing that defines this. So essentially your wrong.

Its also the opinion of at least one PRTB adjudicator. Their opinion matters a lot more than yours.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

Its also the opinion of at least one PRTB adjudicator. Their opinion matters a lot more than yours.

show me....

the movement of market rates is completly subjective. So how you think there is a definitive market rate is beyond me. I can point you to PRTB tribunals where different EA's on each side have had very differing views on the market rate.

TheOldHand

D3PO wrote: »

show me....

the movement of market rates is completly subjective. So how you think there is a definitive market rate is beyond me. I can point you to PRTB tribunals where different EA's in on each side ahve had very differing views on the market rate.

CSO run a rental price index and the DAFT also have a fairly comprehensive index. These would not be considered subjective measures. They are without their problems but in there is nothing else comparable. A few daft ads are not worth much.

Will I show you a relevant PRTB tribunal? Nah, not worth it.

D3PO

TheOldHand wrote: »

Will I show you a relevant PRTB tribunal? Nah, not worth it.

no problems you keep posting spurious stuff on here like your the definitive expert on irish rentals. we will continue to laugh at you :rolleyes:

The_Conductor

Watch it.
Any more tit-for-tat point scoring against one another- and you are going on holiday from this forum. Consider this as the one and only warning.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

murphaph

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think that would work. Imagine 2 apartments exactly the same size in the same building. One has rats and the other is finished to an extremely high standard.
They are clearly in different markets, even though they are in the same place.

But the average price per m² in a given postcode would still be valid. Landlords would be free to kit out to a very high spec and then let at well above the average, but they wouldn't be able to increase the rent more than a fixed % in a given time frame (in Germany it's 20% in any three year period).

Maximus_1

Quite a bit of debate this thread has thrown up I see! Thanks to all for opinions and feedback etc. To update I was back in touch with the landlord today and it ended up in a stand off of sorts! I didn't budge a cent as I basically told him it's not the market value of the house IMO at the same time I said I understood he had his costs and if he thought he could get 560 he was welcome to try. His basic argument is that his is v nicely finished (which it is), aswell as costs rising. Also, that previous tenants were paying more than us. It ended with me not blinking and LL saying he'd have to sleep on it but that he needs 560 to cover his costs, said he couldn't even negotiate which surprised me. Costs yes increased but its not my problem to pay them, such is life as a landlord I basically said. Had a look on daft and he is dreaming with 560 I think so I hope hes going to come to senses. I like the guy and hes a good LL in general so hopefully he'll come around.

TheOldHand

Send him on this link.

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

6.4 Finding:
We find that the Respondent Landlord’s reasons as stated in TS 77andTS 25 to
increase the rent were based on an expectation and belief that the rent should cover his
running costs of the dwelling. This matter cannot be taken into account by the
Tribunal when calculating the market rent.
Reasons:
1. S. 120(1) of the Act states “If the dispute being dealt with by the Tribunal
relates to the amount of the rent that ought to be set under a tenancy at a particular
time ........ the circumstances, financial or otherwise, of the landlord may not be taken
into consideration by the Tribunal in determining the dispute”.
2. In setting, at any particular time, the rent under the tenancy of a dwelling, an
amount of rent shall not be provided for that is greater than the amount of the market
rent for that tenancy at that time.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0120.html#sec120

gaius c

smccarrick wrote: »

A) The property tax is not tax deductable.
Yes, its only due for a half year in 2013
C) The full NPPR is also due for 2013- so its a form of double taxation
D) The NPPR is *not* tax deductable
E) After the last budget they are now also paying PRSI on the gross rental income

So- the landlord's NET rental income after deductions and tax- is significantly lower for 2013- purely as a result of increased taxation, though its probable their other costs of ownership have also increased.

According to the DAFT surveys- rent is going up nationally, but most noticeably in the cities- and far faster for houses than for apartments/townhouses.

Is the increase in rent justifiable? It depends entirely on what is happening in the local market- if, as the OP suggests, rents, or rents sought, are increasing by a similar amount, or more, locally- then it probably is justified. If the OP is unhappy paying this- then their option is to give notice, and move.

You or Baldy Noonan, who shall I believe? I like you more and him less but seeing as he's doing the legislation...

But Finance Minister Michael Noonan has confirmed the property tax may be treated differently. He said he intends to amend the new legislation to allow the tax to be treated as an expense for landlords.

Link

The_Conductor

Ok- so currently, as the law stands, it is not permissable to deduct the property tax as an expense before determination of taxable income when letting residential property. Baldy Noonan, has proposed to amend the current legislation, or introduce new legislation, to enable it be deducted as an allowable expense before determination of taxable income in future.

MelSA

Maximus_1 wrote: »

Hi there fellow boarders,

I am nearing the end of a 12 month lease in a nice house where I live with my wife and baby son, its a rural village in the west and we are happy there. We currently are house hunting but wont be in a position to buy for at least 6 months and maybe more depending on how the market looks then, I'm not in a huge hurry just saving hard and talking to some banks re what we'd get approved for.

Anyway, rent is currently €500 and we have paid it without fuss for the year, model tenants and landlord knows that. Rang him to discuss extending lease by 6 months with a view to a possible 6 more. He is happy with that but wants an increase in rent to €560 to cover the rising costs of being a landlord, we all know what they are. We are obviously against this whilst don't want the hassle of having to move for what may only be 6 months.

Is this a trend people are seeing due to stuff like property tax, passing it onto tenants where possible. I have said to him we will think about it but obviously no way I am paying that increase to be honest. Its a nice house and all but its in the sticks! (just where I like it!)

Hi, you might be legible for rent relief.

Here is a link from revenue, and can claim back 4years

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/forms/rent1.pdf.

Yes, do not pay full increase, negotiate first .... Good luck

Maximus_1

So heres an update, this morning we settled on a compromised figure of a €20 increase. I'm happy enough to agree on that and move on, I can afford it. For the sake of a few bob its not worth haggling any more over. I told him his property tax would cost him €162 max this year as its only half of €315 (depends of course what the value is set at), last week he was throwing figures of 6 or 800 around which I knew to be totally inaccurate.

It would cost me about €120 (paying to get postal address changed plus a van for moving) plus a full weekend and more of hassle to move so when I factor these in I'm happy to get it put to bed. Plus the missus was getting a bit stressed at all the uncertainty, what price a quiet life!? I realise I could have probably fought it harder if I wanted but I didn't because everything else to do with the landlord and house is 100%.

Appreciate all the feedback and comment and hopefully some of the good advice will help others out in a similar situation as I'm sure with the rising costs of owning a property I wont be the only one in this boat! Back now to concentrating on savings and hopefully picking ourselves up a little place of our own later in the year

Maximus_1

oh and MelSA, thanks for that, yes we are already claiming rent relief.

djimi

Thats a good outcome. Glad to see the situation got resolved with everyone happy and no falling out!

D3PO

Maximus_1 wrote: »

So heres an update, this morning we settled on a compromised figure of a €20 increase. I'm happy enough to agree on that and move on, I can afford it. For the sake of a few bob its not worth haggling any more over. I told him his property tax would cost him €162 max this year as its only half of €315 (depends of course what the value is set at), last week he was throwing figures of 6 or 800 around which I knew to be totally inaccurate.

It would cost me about €120 (paying to get postal address changed plus a van for moving) plus a full weekend and more of hassle to move so when I factor these in I'm happy to get it put to bed. Plus the missus was getting a bit stressed at all the uncertainty, what price a quiet life!? I realise I could have probably fought it harder if I wanted but I didn't because everything else to do with the landlord and house is 100%.

Appreciate all the feedback and comment and hopefully some of the good advice will help others out in a similar situation as I'm sure with the rising costs of owning a property I wont be the only one in this boat! Back now to concentrating on savings and hopefully picking ourselves up a little place of our own later in the year

common sense prevailed. Thanks for the update

TheOldHand

I'd expect the relationship to sour now that the landlord knows you are a doormat that will avoid conflict at all costs.

Maximus_1

Haha, a doormat you reckon? And what would you have done? Cause a needless row over a few quid when there was no need, stress out my wife more and possibly end up moving after it all with all the hassle that entails?

He was looking for much more than €20 and I flat out refused, he came to his senses and I was happy enough to pay the €20 (it would cost me more financially and in time to move for 6 months).

Appears you are one of those people that likes to call in the law wherever possible, we now live in a society where people like to get litigious and cause needless agro over many pointless things, going to the PRTB over €20 a month for 6 months? You really reckon a compromise where both parties are happy enough isnt the best outcome here?

Unlike yourself OldHand I have a good rapport with most people I deal with a find out getting on with them is generally the best way wherever possible, this is one of those situations. A doormat however, I aint.

D3PO

Maximus_1 wrote: »

Haha, a doormat you reckon? And what would you have done? Cause a needless row over a few quid when there was no need, stress out my wife more and possibly end up moving after it all with all the hassle that entails?

He was looking for much more than €20 and I flat out refused, he came to his senses and I was happy enough to pay the €20 (it would cost me more financially and in time to move for 6 months).

Appears you are one of those people that likes to call in the law wherever possible, we now live in a society where people like to get litigious and cause needless agro over many pointless things, going to the PRTB over €20 a month for 6 months? You really reckon a compromise where both parties are happy enough isnt the best outcome here?

Unlike yourself OldHand I have a good rapport with most people I deal with a find out getting on with them is generally the best way wherever possible, this is one of those situations. A doormat however, I aint.

ignore him 50 posts in ive come to the conclusion hes either arrogant to the point he has nothing of value to add to any thread or hes a troll.

TheOldHand

I'd have gotten a e50 reduction 6 months back and would have spent the annual savings on a nice holiday with the wife. It's business you're not trying to keep a friend happy. My wife knows I'm like this and thats what attracts her, a strong willed individual who puts his family first.

djimi

TheOldHand wrote: »

I'd have gotten a e50 reduction 6 months back and would have spent the annual savings on a nice holiday with the wife. It's business you're not trying to keep a friend happy. My wife knows I'm like this and thats what attracts her, a strong willed individual who puts his family first.

Its a business, but like any business its a relationship that you need to prevent from turning sour. The OP has come to an arrangement with the landlord that seems to keep both parties happy. Okay he might have held out for the extra €20, and may well have gotten it, but is it really worth destroying the relationship with your landlord for the sake of €200 a year? Most people would prefer not to have the potential hassle.

TheOldHand

It's never personal and it takes a bit of negotiating skill and sales techniques. The awkwardness shoukd only last the day or so of negotiating and should leave no resentment. I've negotiated a 200 euro reduction before. Present your case and make them aware that you are saving them money in the long run. An empty house in the middle of nowhere could stay that way for a year.

djimi

TheOldHand wrote: »

The awkwardness shoukd only last the day or so of negotiating and should leave no resentment.

Youre making a bit assumption there. Again I ask, is it really worth risking turning your landlord against you for the sake of €20 a month?

BostonB

Sometimes people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Pay an extra €20 to stay somewhere where they are happy, LL is "sound", prompt dealing with issues, and in a location they are happy with. Its only for 6 months. Sounds like a good deal to me.

gaius c

djimi wrote: »

Youre making a bit assumption there. Again I ask, is it really worth risking turning your landlord against you for the sake of €20 a month?

Have to say I agree with him and the "sure it's only €20" attitude amongst folk here is a good illustration as to why Irish businesses fare poorly outside of Ireland. Our company is international and when there's margins to be protected or selling prices to be struck, it's always the Dutch or the Danes who get called in to do it ,never an Irish person.

The landlord has received an extra €20 into his pocket for no apparent reason other than him asking for it. So what if the landlord doesn't like it. He's running a business and it's in his interests to keep the tenant sweet too.

BostonB

You're logic seems to be that only the Dutch and Danes have margins not Irish LL. TBH its got nothing to do with margins. The LL can raise the rent to match the market rate. Rents are increasing.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0211/1224329906652.html



A tenant can appeal it for sure.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html

djimi

gaius c wrote: »

Have to say I agree with him and the "sure it's only €20" attitude amongst folk here is a good illustration as to why Irish businesses fare poorly outside of Ireland. Our company is international and when there's margins to be protected or selling prices to be struck, it's always the Dutch or the Danes who get called in to do it ,never an Irish person.

The landlord has received an extra €20 into his pocket for no apparent reason other than him asking for it. So what if the landlord doesn't like it. He's running a business and it's in his interests to keep the tenant sweet too.

Ordinarily Id agree with you, but this is not a business conducted soley by businessmen; its an industry that is becoming increasingly populated by unwilling part time landlords who do not know what they are doing and do not want to be in the position that they are in. Standing your ground may save you €20 a month, but at the cost of getting your landlords back up, which could impact your time both in the property and when you try to leave. It sounds unprofessional but too often in the Irish rental market you are not dealing with professionals. The reality of renting is that you have to keep this in mind.

The OP was informed that they had a strong bargaining position and could probably have put the foot down and gotten away without any increase, but in the end they came to an agreement that kept both parties happy, and more importantly kept the relationship between them on good terms. I dont know if you have ever been on bad terms with a landlord but its usually not worth it, not for the sake of €20 a month. Nor is it worth the hassle/expense of moving for the sake of €20 a month.

Maximus_1

Gaius C it is only €20, it was to be €60 but I settled with him on €20. The house is the nicest of its kind around and location suits us v well at present and having looked around nearby towns on daft the past week I'd pay circa €470-520 for the equivalent house. Sure I could get one for 400-450 but it wont be of the same standard and I have to hope then the new neighbours/LL etc are as easy to get on with, plus take the hit of the time and costs to move. If it was €60X6 I'd be prepared to do it but not for €20.

Some folks on this threat also dont seem to understand the 'price' of goodwill. For example, the heating went on the blink a few months back during a cold snap, I text LL at 10 PM after giving up on fixing it myself, he was on holiday in the UK but replied inside 15 mins and I had a guy call next day to sort the boiler. From experience all LLs are not as on the ball as that so dragging an appeal to the PRTB for 20 quid which I can afford isn't in my nature, maybe a Dutchman would, I dont really care.