Waterford Airport

wellboytoo

Great thread nice to see the interest, I work very close to WAT and am sick watching what stobart/Aer Arann did to a great profitable service, 5000 pax per month on LTN went to 1400 per month because people were not going to central london , so why end up the wrong side of were you are going to.
I believe there is a minimum of 120000pax a year out of WAT if only you can get a carrier to base there, but I suppose if you can base an asset elsewhere and get 240000 its a no brainer?

havetoquit

It has been insightful and helpful reading your comments and as someone who used Waterford on a regular basis to fly to see family in UK or take connecting flights from Luton to France, I am finding it a great loss right now.

I have to always use a coach to Dublin airport and to get anywhere can take me a day, door to door, depending on flight times. The flight to Nice is just once a day, so I have to either leave home at 6am or stay overnight, which makes it very expensive.

I think it is a shame, particularly as tourism is so important to us that people have to travel so far, particularly older or less mobile tourists who visit the South East from UK. One so often meets totally exhausted people with young children who have been travelling all day just to get home to the South East. The money they have to pay for the different forms of public transport, taxis etc would often be as much as the flight cost that people complain of from/to Waterford.

The actual location of Waterford did not concern those of us who used it, as even with paying the ferry at Ballyhack or going the long way round through New Ross, it was a brilliant convenience and made one's travel relatively easier, saving so much time in the process. In the event that one had to use a taxi to get there, it didn't actually break the bank either. There were also many special offers from time to time from Aerarran, so that was also a help.

Someone mentioned that when booking one always looks at the airlines and not the airport; Yes, mainly, but if you live in the South East, you just tap in Waterford and are more than happy to take whatever airline is operating. I guess I only speak for the dire affecionados of the airport service here and I have long been one of them.

Our emigration has risen drastically and although I have no figures for our region, I do know that those of our people who work in UK would appreciate being able to get home for a weekend without a whole day spent travelling, losing precious time with family.

I have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and very much appreciated the comments and suggestions on here of those more qualified to inform.

Does anyone think that the airport is worth investing in and if not, why had more land been purchased and other projects either begun or completed one has to ask. Perhaps it will be like the new railway track built in Rosslare port, that was promptly closed not long after it's completion.. The ugly thing now sits there, an eysore at the side of the main road to the port, reminding all and sundry of our lack of foresight and management of areas of our public transport.

It makes me sad to think that so many more hotels than were needed were built, instead of investing in our airports to make things easier for tourists to get to us and also to serve our own people of the South East; families travelling to see their exiled loved ones and visa versa and let us not forget the business people, who often cannot afford to use a whole day to get to their business appointments in France, Holland and Germany.


If you see the large number of people who use the coaches daily to get to Dublin airport, which takes 3 hrs, then add the time it takes to get from one's home in the sticks, one begins to realize that perhaps not as many people as assumed actually drives to the airport from the South East, pays to leave their car there, or has a family member drive there and back in one day.

Then in summer, the South East sees a substantial influx of foreign students coming here either to our language institutes or on family exchange. They arrive in Dublin or Cork from all areas of France, Spain, Germany and Italy and then follows a long coach/car journey. The situation hardly encourages people to return.

Speaking on behalf of many people from my own area, we always have to take a taxi to Wexford to get the coach, as our families either do not live nearby or have to drive to work. I also know a number of wheel chair users, who really appreciated the shorter journey to Waterford and are now unable to travel to Cork or Dublin.



I fully understand that our small population is a huge factor in all or this, but someone mentioned Luxembourg who seem to be able to manage it, so it is confusing for us laypeople who do not know the ins and outs of the industry.

Thanks in advance to those who may possibly take time to read this post.

tankbarry

Its like anything if you have the right tools for a job you will get the job done and properly...... If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper, destinations to the sun, and people actually want to travel on a jet not a propeller aircraft although Flybe dash 8 is a nice plane.....


why buy the land to extend if your not going to extend ?

havetoquit

So agree and sorry to everyone for such a lengthy ramble previously, but it is great to at least be given the chance to air one's thoughts and concerns and to have them responded to. Calling Waterford Airport was less informative I may add, so without the good people on this great forum, we would be uninformed.

sydneybound

Neworder79 wrote: »

Rubbish, there's no evidence for either of those statements and reads more like your own prejudices opinion.

There's no evidence of any significant US traffic in to NOC, teary eyed or not. Tourism accounted for about 15% of use at the last report in 2008 though this may have grown in recent years as inbound Euro routes were added.

As for stroke politics, the exact opposite has been true for the last 15 years with agile, creative management allowing the airport to grow 5-10% annually and break-even several years with limited operational subsidy. Pilgrimage charters amounted to less than 2% of traffic a few years back, so what "power of the church" means I don't know.

The vast majority of traffic in the past has been VFR (visiting friends and relatives) predominantly UK based, and outbound leisure travel with a large sun holiday offering to Spain, Canaries.

Knock "stays open" for several reasons:
- Well run in last decade, tight ship, small staff single shift, focus on marketing
- Board take no fees, all profit reinvested in facility, regional development remit
- Self funding model with departure fee, offsets airline costs
- Low cost model focus on major airline brands Ryanair, AerLingus, Flybe
- Continuos route growth, increased customer offering
- Serves a wide region 2-4 hours from other major airports
- Historically poor access road infrastructure into region, no motorways
- Infrastructure to cater for majority of aircraft, 2345x45m runway, CAT2 ILS, CAT3 Lighting, Navaids, CAT 9 Fire cover, 800,000 capacity terminal etc
- Ryanair brand has huge draw, 14 routes,
- Holiday charter business to Majorca, Croatia etc
- 0-2% delays last year, Ryanair top punctuality rating

Airport youtube video which gives a good overview:

Fantastic post.

Jamie2k9

Self funding model

Think you may need to do some research...

L1011

tankbarry wrote: »

If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper,?

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop.

havetoquit

Has the situation regarding the airport been highlighted by the media, in particular TV in a bid to gain investment, but perhaps this is an obvious question which has already been addressed. Sorry about lack of question mark here, keyboard key stuck.

I was out of the country when the airport changed it's operations, so am not fully aware of what has been reported by the media.

tankbarry

Calling Waterford Airport was less informative I may add

Well if you got through to the information desk and asked there for details there was no point. The staff don't even know whats going on.

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop

summer flights would sell I think when the 146 was doing them they were nearly always full there was even people waiting to see could they get on if nobody turned up. I think it would be harder with the uk flights but I do think its possible. Its the like of ryanair you would be looking at even aer lingus.


Lorient was full everytime when it was on and priced ok when luton was at a price three 72's were full everyday. Southend , breakdown's , and ridiculous high prices were big problems

air2000

Knock "stays open" for several reasons:
- Well run in last decade, tight
ship, small staff single shift, focus on marketing
- Self funding model with
departure fee, offsets airline costs

Dont make me laugh....

Knock rode and built their empire on the PSO for the last decade. They charged Aer Arann for opening early for the flight to depart in Dublin... only in Ireland.

Every year the government cover the operating losses like it does for each regional, so much for self funding.

Abit old now but it will show how much government funding Knock has got in the early days.

http://www.safetyonthewater.ie/upload/knock_airport_report.pdf

finchkerry

air2000 wrote: »

Abit old now but it will show how much government funding Knock has got in the early days.

http://www.safetyonthewater.ie/upload/knock_airport_report.pdf

Come on that report is from 2001, 12 years old... I lost interest when I read minister Mary O Rourke!

In recent years Knock has gained more passengers and is going in the right direction or would you disagree on this too?

Let's talk Shannon bailout sure, now that's a can of worms and waste of so much public money, huge sums of money paid out...

Neworder79

Air2000
All the regionals (bar WAT) "rode and built their empire on the PSO", and OPEX subsidy (inc WAT), and some for significantly more than others. PSO ended in 2010 for most of them, why aren't they all thriving today? If it were just about operating subsidy shouldn't WAT be booming with the SAR contract covering ATC and high OPEX of recent years? You know it's not that simple, as pointed out there are many factors at play in each airport.

NOC had the advantage of large runway infrastructure from day one, and has built on that base over the decades through capital grants and its own investment (co-funded). But its growth phase in the last 10 years was largely led by a new management team in 2004, tight rein on costs and staffing hours, investment in facilities, route development and marketing and most importantly a large low-cost partner in Ryanair committed to growth. Not perfect, you may not like their choices, not 100% self funding since the recession, but still operating, serving passengers on 25 routes and growing through the cutbacks, so they did something right, no?

Sorry to Waterford posters, I replied to LeftBases comments with those points to bring a bit of perspective, show where one other airport has had some success by Irish standards, not to start another subsidy debate.

Incidentally, Government today published the starting point for the first National Aviation Policy document.

http://transport.ie/uploads/documents/feature/IssuesPaper.pdf

wellboytoo

Four flights a week to MAN by Flybe to be announced today

b757

WAT-MAN loaded onto Flybe schedule. Starting 22nd May.

4 weekly, with onward destinations to Norwich, Southampton and Exeter. And possibly more connnections to the routes served from BHX.

Hopefully more to come!

foxcoverteddy

What brilliant news, however i was reading the National Aviation Objectives and got to the point regarding Ireland's involvement in Aerospace, it came to me immediately, ready, shove a squib up the rear end of our polticians light the blue touch paper and stand clear.
sorry about that back to the report

CelticRambler

havetoquit wrote: »

... sorry to everyone for such a lengthy ramble previously ...

No need to apologise - you've actually summed up exactly what's wrong with the development strategy of most regional airport managers (not just Waterford - it's the same in the UK)

Teebor15 wrote: »

I agree with the first 2 paras of your post but how are they trying to imitate the large airports?

By not listening to people like havetoquit and desperately trying to cater to a 1970 "business traveller" market while simultaneously prostituting themselves to the lo-cos.

There is an assumption amongst route planners (and aviation forum commentators) that the only really successful route is a double-daily rotation leaving at the crack of dawn and getting back as late as possible. Well, that's great if you've got a high concentration of high-value, time-is-money dynamic business customers - but the "Regions" don't. Full stop. What they do have are smaller businesses with more flexibility and it doesn't matter if there are only two flights a week and they have to stay overnight because they'll arrange their appointments to suit.

Havetoquit points out the reality as it is for most people:

havetoquit wrote: »

I have to always use a coach to Dublin airport and to get anywhere can take me a day, door to door, depending on flight times. The flight to Nice is just once a day, so I have to either leave home at 6am or stay overnight, which makes it very expensive.

Sure, there are some people who need to get that very last pint on a Sunday night and sleep it off on the 6am Dub-Stn Monday morning, but when they're getting to their ultimate destination at the same time, the vast majority of ordinary travellers would prefer a later departure and a shorter overall journey.

I live in central France and can't get to Paris before 9am. I can't get to London before 4pm. I can just about get a day-return to Paris (arrive in the centre about 10, got to be gone by 5 to get the last). I can't do a day-trip to London (or any other European city). Our local unemployment rate is 8% - not a heaving economy, but better than than the national average, and a lot better than Ireland! :rolleyes:

tankbarry wrote: »

If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper, destinations to the sun, and people actually want to travel on a jet not a propeller aircraft although Flybe dash 8 is a nice plane.....

People will travel on a flying carpet if it's cheap enough. The airport does not need budget travellers. By definition, these are people who want to spend the least amount of money and do not appreciate the service provided by the airport. They have zero loyalty and if they even think they can save 5ct by travelling to Donegal instead of Waterford, they will.

MYOB wrote: »

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop.

Exactly. There are plenty of aircraft that can use the runway. What any regional airport needs is the greatest possible number of destinations and a regular year-round service. That means ordinary people leading ordinary business and family lives can plan ahead. 15 regular passengers on a 19-seater twice a week, 52 weeks of the year to ten destinations is a much better advert for the airport than 150 people on a loco flight to one single city.

Teebor15 wrote: »

Have you any examples? (I'm not sayings there are none..i'm just curious!) and even if this is the case what should they do? Not try new routes just stick with the same old same old. How do they know if a route will work unless they try it.

Best example that I can think of is Manston - very similar situation to Waterford, but with a huge catchment area. They've trying again with KLM next month. We'll see how that goes. Also Anglouême, tried to make it work with Ryanair. Failed.

You're right - they need to try new routes, but I've sat in on the meetings and that's precisely what they don't do. Sooner or later someone drags out the CAA statistics showing that x passengers come from y and fly to z and if we could just grab a slice of that market everything would be fine. Wrong. Those passengers have already decided what suits them and you'll have to work really hard to persuade them to change.

The new routes need to be something really new, bordering on the experimental, e.g. Waterford-Cherbourg for folk who get sea-sick but still want to go on a driving holiday with the rest of their family.

Teebor15 wrote: »

No airlines priority is to support economic development they all no matter how big, small or local want to turn a profit.

Agreed - that's why it doesn't make sense for airport managers to sell their souls to the major carriers. Their interests are not the same, but the small and local carriers do share an interest. Take my ferry-alternative example again - couple that with a night's accommodation and breakfast, maybe a pre- or post-flight massage waiting for the family to turn up, and intelligent baggage handling/security clearance. Now you've created something that makes a Waterford departure a completely unique experience that Dublin will never be able to offer.

Look to the East for another example - the People's Airport/Airline of St. Gallen-Altenrhein. One aircraft, one destination (double daily). Very successful. So successful, in fact, that Austrian Airlines (who abandonned the service to Vienna prompting the creating of People's) came back to mop up the extra demand.

foxcoverteddy

Bonjour Celtic Rambler.
What a bloody interesting post, creative and positive and something people can chew over, you make it sound so simple, it probably is.
Wouldn't eurostar get you to london quicker? It is a bit like flying.
Good luck Foxy

fricatus

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Bonjour Celtic Rambler.
What a bloody interesting post

You said it - top drawer Celtic Rambler!

Fabio

That's very good news, it will be interesting to seeif that flight is supported now...

L1011

Amazed something came through this late, glad to be wrong with my prediction that it was too late in the season.

donvito99

Good luck to WAT and flyBe on this one. I assume this will be a late starter in the summer season?

foxcoverteddy

I don't think anyone is bothered how long, it is coming, we can make it with some hard selling and a lot of work, bloody brilliant news. Good Luck flybe and Waterford Airport

havetoquit

How uplifting to read these great responses, the interest, the energy and huge thanks especially to CelticRambler for such a brilliant post, which went a long way towards articulating the issue and for upping the momentum.

I wish Waterford Airport every possible success and so hope that it will receive the highest level of support possible from the public.

I am assuming that Tourism Ireland will do their utmost to help to promote the airport, so that even the smallest villages in Europe will not be unaware of it's existence.

Perhaps my enthusiasm is a little unrealistic, but like to keep the optimism on the boil.

CelticRambler

If I've helped fuel your optimism, then that's good, but there is a downside - any future development needs the wholehearted support of the local community in all its forms, and in that respect I'm afraid my rating of Waterford is about as low as it can go. My business needs uncongested regional airports, preferably not tainted by the presence of a low-cost carrier. There are two ideal candidates in Ireland, one of which is Waterford. It took me three attempts to get an answer from Waterford management and the exchange didn't last long. At the other airport, we have had face-to-face meetings, I've met the local head of the Chamber of Commerce, we've discussed route plans, have a provisional schedule in place (subject to this that and the other), I've met someone from the County Council, I've exchanged messages with local arts&crafts people, I've set up a "twinned in spirit" arrangement with a town in France so that we can build a whole series of cultural, social, commercial and education exchanges ...

Back in Waterford, when it was announced that "we're talking with other operators ..." I waited for a call. It didn't come.

But Waterford still suits my network, so I contacted a well-known performing arts group to see how we could work together. No answer. Still no answer even after I 'phoned up to push the idea a bit further. For another part of the business, I need someone to find me 1000kg of Irish produce every week, box it up and have it ready to go on the 'plane. I contacted a local Waterford retailer that already prepares hampers of Irish products for online sales. Would they be interested ... no answer. Follow-up 'phone call ... no answer.

In the meantime, from the area of my reluctant third choice Irish regional airport we're already working together (cultural exchange, young entrepreneurs, speciality food, music and dance) preparing the way for our first flights and we fully intend to do there what just about every aviation "expert" says is impossible (you'll have to wait a while for that though).

We gave Waterford Airport a two-year head start on everyone else, and businesses such as those above first call, but now Waterford isn't just lagging behind our two other Irish target areas, it's behind EVERY other European regional airport and hinterland that we've asked to do business with. I would desperately love to have Waterford (Airport, City and County) included in our plans, but if I've got to talk them (you lot!) into it, well, it's just not going to work.

havetoquit - you're based in Nice, are you? PM me some time and maybe we can cross paths and figure out a way to "fix" this ...

foxcoverteddy

Well Celtic Rambler that was the last thing I expected to hear. I can imagine your feelings when you do your most to help things work.
It will be no good our friends in Waterford moaning if this lifeline doesn't work, it is true you cannot sit back and let someone do the donkey work.
Business needs continuous work, it may be hard it may involve long hours, if you want to succeed.
Though the current political climate looks as enthusiastic as a dead rat, but this is where those who want to succeed can achieve their goals, leave the negativity behind, be positive, constructive and above all honest.
We live in Kilkenny which is linked to a French town Moret sur Longe, have we heard anything about the cultural exchange, no, does the city go out of its way to promote french produce etc, no, never heard of anyone sending Irish produce to them.
Kilkenny has a wealth of small food producers, who seem content to sell locally at prices which defy gravity.
The enthusiasm shown by lovers of Waterford Airport surely cannot be lost the South East needs an airport but can the people of the south east rally round to support one?
Your post should make some, if not all sit up and take notice, hopefully spur them into action, there have been adverse comments about management before, but one has always taken these with a pinch of salt.
So thanks again, right Waterford are you up to it or are we fooling ourselves. At least think about it, you could have a super future or you could continue to fly Cork Shannon and dublin.
Good night Foxy

havetoquit

Dear Celticrambler, I now really have a fuller picture of where you are coming from and reading your post made me so very angry, disappointed and ashamed, to think that such concerted effort on your part was met with a disrespectful lack of interest, not to speak of horrendously bad manners and ignorance. I am truly appalled honestly and I would hope that those who read this will not consider me to be in any way self righteous or anything close to it, simply that I find what you described to be totally unacceptable.

I am sorry if my posts gave even the vaguest impression that I am even half way qualified to be of any constructive assistance in all of this, rather you are just gaining a basic insight into my passion and enthusiasm to see Waterford Airport become a success for all concerned.

I am simply a retired person, who has lived abroad for years in Europe, Middle and Far East and of course a while in Britain too. I have come full circle so to speak and am still trying to come to terms with the difference in attitudes to issues like this and many others. It is so hard to understand the lack of interest or the apathy that exists in my own region, among my own people.

How I wish that I had the financial capabilities to make a real difference and believe me I would not hesitate, or indeed if I had the business acumen to be of assistance in any way, but unfortunately, my career was of a totally different path; in Health Care.
A very close family member lives near Nice and that is my reason for visiting regularly. Likewise my reason for visiting London and the West Country.

I basically just have a huge interest in all community matters and try to become involved in as much as I can, even if it just means communicating with the local paper and radio station, in a bid to highlight issues of importance, or making use of my local TD if and when I think it might help move matters ahead.

It would be an understatement to say that I was shocked and quite disgusted to note the disrespectful behavior you had to deal with, when your intentions were for the good of all. I am quite amazed at your resilience and continued willingness to battle on, when this kind of attitude prevails. Many would have washed their hands of it by now.

Thank you again for your informative posts, which serve so well in enlightening people like myself who has no knowledge of the industry.

I admire all the efforts you have made on behalf of a public that clearly does not appreciate it near enough.

If you have any suggestions as to how those who subscribe to this thread could assist, then please indicate that and you who knows, the responses could prove positive. I do hope so.

havetoquit

I guess too that when communicating on here, it is easy to imagine that we are speaking to the broader public, but regardless of our own enthusiasm, we are only reaching a small number of interested parties.

Given CelticRambler's revelations, it seems that we are dealing with a public, most of whom need to be seriously woken up to the need to start caring about the future of their region and to be active in doing so. How does one change the attitudes that prevail I ask.

If the facility of Waterford Airport is taken from us, then of course we will hear how vocal they can become, precisely as those who cannot be bothered to vote and then complain about the results.

CelticRambler

Yes, there's always a potential problem that you get directed to "the wrong people" and for that reason, when I do my research, the first thing I do is avoid asking anyone anything, but walk around, drive around, get a feel for the place, imagine that I know nothing about it and just see how it "speaks" to me.

Waterford (City) ticked all the boxes - plenty of Irish history, connections to French history, lots of cultural variety & public events (Tall Ships, Spraoi, now the Winterval festival, Wexford Opera not too far away, etc), really convenient springboard for the whole of the south of England, a modest third-level facility and an airport that could do with better connections to the city but otherwise is a perfect size for the kind of mixed-use operations that make up my business.

That business absolutely depends on others (individuals or groups of any kind) coming to me and saying "d'you know what'd be great ..." or "what we need is ..." or "why does no-one else offer ..." and then being prepared to take on some of effort required to get it together. I really couldn't care less about how Flybe or Aer Arann or Ryanair run their airlines, and I'm not interested in providing a basic commuter shuttle service. There are plenty of operators happy to lose money on those but I'm not one of them. I'm looking for ideas where the connection by air is part of a bigger picture, and enough different concepts to allow some of them to fail without bringing the whole venture down.

Of course that might be the very reason why I haven't heard back from Waterford airport management - has the "London/Manchester Connection" become such a huge issue that nothing else is considered?

Well, despite everything, it's still on my wishlist and if I could find someone to pack and deliver 1000kg of Guaranteed Irish (distinctively Irish) products to the airport once a week, I'd still include it in our proof-of-concept operation. At least that'd give you a direct route to central France (Orléans/Bourges/Limoges/Poitiers)

havetoquit

Thank you CelticRambler for a another brilliantly informative post.

Do you think that there is anything I could do in my own limited capacity, such as write to newspapers, call in to Radio stations and so on, or would this be pretty useless as a means of highlighting your concept. Sorry, question mark key still stuckl

I imagine you have been down those roads and many more from your posts, but if there is anything you can suggest to members on here, then I am sure they would be more than willing to become involved.

mike65

Someone email this to the city council and the Chamber of Commerce, be interested to hear their views. Not that they'd come on a public forum of course.