Waterford Airport

CelticRambler

Ah, yes. Pan-european comparisons can be such fun! Suresnes, I know it well - about 6.5km from the Eiffel Tower. Anyone from Ireland would call it "Paris" and I'm sure Waterford would be quite happy to be considered "a little better" that that tiddly place.

But it's not.

It's impressive the level of passion that some people on here have for WAT, but once again I'll say it: you've got to stop trying to be "Dublin lite". LoCo carriers and Budget travellers do not make for a sustainable business model, and if you're offering the same service as everyone else (i.e. Dublin), you're totally at the mercy of a fickle public.

The runway at WAT is not too short - there are dozens of aircraft types that can use it, and if the airport management and local population haven't figured out how to do this successfully, then having a longer runway is not going to guarantee survival (my most local airport has a 3.5km runway, zero scheduled flights and precious few charters).

Similarly, top destinations - same old, same old, same old ... Why would anyone in the "grey zone" choose to fly from Waterford to London, Paris or Amsterdam when they would inevitably have much better choice (and probably prices) ex Dublin? But you know, there are other places in Europe worth visiting with very poor connections from Ireland. For the price of a runway extension, Waterford could corner the market in direct routes to places like Canterbury, Bruges, Rouen, Limoges. I would have put Oxford on that list too but Dublin's got it now.

And more than anything else, you've got to invest time and energy (the money's not that important) in building up multiple social and business connections that work all year round so you're not dependent on any one bloc of travellers.

LeftBase

fricatus wrote: »

All we're discussing is the feasibility of bringing things up to the level of Knock or Kerry - hardly a stretch! I don't see any reason why the (admittedly limited) population of the Waterford area wouldn't be able to support a similar range of flights as those airports, which serve similarly small populations.

Comparisons like the ones you've made are essentially meaningless, because you're not comparing like with like. Waterford does not claim to be any sort of metropolis, but it is the largest centre of population for 80 miles in every direction, and has the closest airport for about 450,000 people.

Kerry is a big tourist destination and Knock serves the West of Ireland better than Shannon as the road North West of Shannon is not the best.

For an airline that travels around Europe 450,000 people in the area of an airport is tiny.

air2000

CelticRambler wrote: »

there are dozens of aircraft types that can use it...

There may be a dozen aircraft types but there is not a dozen airlines. The number of airlines with the right aircraft is limited. The number of airlines with the right aircraft that are free is even more limited...

Neworder79

Realistically only BE have the aircraft, base and interest other than EIR.

- Eastern focused on UK inter-regional niche, no major city bases.
- Don't see Manx (now "Citywing") returning to this market for a long while, and aircraft too small.
- Air Contractors ATRs all under lease, cargo focus.
- Cityjets future in the balance, AF in control, no history with small regionals though they flirted with PSO.
- BA Cityflyer focused on lucrative London City business market.
- Easyjet might have been a contender for a daily LTN/SEN 319 given the short block distance. But shortest runway EZ operate is Jersry 1705m, Gibraltar 1828m and Isle of Man 1840m. Atlantic Airways recently began 319 operations from Faro Islands abut I think that had to be extended to 1800m.

Only airport of WAT size seeing more common 737/319 class jets is Santos Dumont in Rio at 1330. Only possible with a specially designed Boeing 738 modified for the most profitable, busiest route pair in Brazil.

Jamie2k9

Knock serves the West of Ireland better than Shannon as the road North West of Shannon is not the best.

Don't make me laugh NOC serves the West of Ireland are you for real. Did it serve the West in 2006/7/8 very well. The road network to NOC isn't the best either...

Only airport of WAT 1300m size seeing more common 737/319 class jets is Santos Dumont in Rio. Only possible as Boeing designed a specially modified aircraft for the most profitable - busiest route pair in Brazil

WAT is 1433m but still very limited.

Neworder79

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Don't make me laugh NOC serves the West of Ireland are you for real. Did it serve the West in 2006/7/8 very well.

Really have a bee in your bonnet about Knock lately, whats the beef?

Jamie2k9

Neworder79 wrote: »

Really have a bee in your bonnet about Knock lately, whats the beef?

Would just like to know how it serves the West of Ireland, until FR fell out with SNN you could only go to the UK from NOC and the odd charters, so if that counts as serving the West then that's fine. Today it doesn't serve it very well although it has improved its no where near serving the West of Ireland as you claim as airport management do to.

Dilbert75

Rather than being concerned with what is not possible or likely, what are the possible routes that could be considered from Wat? Of the planes of the right size and type, what kind of range are they capable of? Would you get directly to Holland, Germany, France, Spain, etc? There are sure to be niches that could conceivably work, perhaps to similar sized airports in whose interest it would be to have more air traffic, tourist business.

Irish Steve

OK, time out.

I was the one that mentioned 3 or 4 miles, 1200 Ft and the 35 degree arc, and it wasn't to highlight what the aircraft MIGHT use, it was to highlight that in the scale of things, it's a VERY SMALL portion of the airspace around the airport, and only used during descent.

And I'm not about to get into an argument about the exact specification of the current ILS for Waterford, I've not flown there, so never looked at the plate with serious intent, though I have seen it in passing when looking at alternates for flights from the South West of England to Dublin.

So please, stop all the arguing about best practice, or preferred approaches, or standard operating procedures, this discussion is supposed to be about generating more interest and use of Waterford Airport, not about if a jet coming in flies a straight in approach, or a DME arc circling approach, it flies whatever approach has been designed by the operator of the airport and approved by the IAA, and the only factor I was trying to point out is that the area affected by low flying aircraft is a very small part of the entire airport traffic zone.

I could also go on to point out that if I drive past 28 at Dublin with my car radio even slightly louder than normal, an A330 departing from the runway beside me does not significantly make itself heard inside my vehicle above the radio, and compared to the noise levels of even a few years ago (Ryanair 737-200's spring to mind) the modern jets are NOT noisy.

There is a place for Waterford airport in the structure of the system in Ireland, but the most important thing is that the local area has to support it, and work with the people at the airport, and make that co-operation work. If an airline chooses to use ATR's or Dash8's or a Jet, small medium or large, it will be on the basis of what is appropriate for the route demand, based also on what they have available, so Ryanair will only offer a 737-800, as that's all they have, Flybe can offer Dash8's or E145's, and maybe E175's, Aer Arann were using ATR's, and so on. There are smaller, and there are larger, that's not really the factor, the important thing is that they go where people in the Waterford area want to go, at convenient times, and at attractive prices. If they meet those criteria, then the rest is pretty academic, the majority of passengers don't care if it's prop or jet, as long as it ticks the rest of the boxes.

So, please, drop the fatuous comparisons with Kai Tak, or wherever else, they are not important or relevant to the discussion about the REAL future of Waterford Airport as a viable part of the aviation infrastructure of Ireland.

Ideally, concentrate on what can be good about Waterford, what will generate traffic, and how it can be encouraged, rather than the negatives, the airport is there, is operational, and employs real people who care about it, so let's try and find way to keep it that way, and encourage the people of the South East to use it, and use it more, so that it becomes a part of the long term infrastructure of the South East.

Jamie2k9

Rather than being concerned with what is not possible or likely, what are the possible routes that could be considered from Wat? Of the planes of the right size and type, what kind of range are they capable of? Would you get directly to Holland, Germany, France, Spain, etc? There are sure to be niches that could conceivably work, perhaps to similar sized airports in whose interest it would be to have more air traffic, tourist business.

The airport had flights to Malaga, Faro, Bordeaux and Amsterdam.

foxcoverteddy

Well said irish steve, full marks, thank you, perhaps we can move on
Regards Foxy

LeftBase

Ok then putting all the nitty gritty logistics around approaches etc aside I still cannot see Waterford being viable for any regular service beyond what it has.

If you look at the loco jet airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet etc you have 737s/A319s/20s with 160-180 seats. You will not fill 100 seats every day to or from where they would fly to out of Waterford and that would be a deal breaker for them.

Biggest issue here would be the kind of people Waterford Airport would have to get in to bed with. Ryanair would strip the place down as would Easyjet. They would be in the driving seat of any investment and would control the routes etc in and out. If Waterford refused a condition they wanted to impose they would threaten to pull out. The airport would be over a barrel.

Fares would be an issue too. Is Waterford really that convenient when you have to pay 50% more to fly somewhere? The lack of competition out of the airport would mean that fares would be higher than Dublin and Shannon.

pclancy

The business drivers for airlines just arent there. Why would they bother flying jets into Waterford with Dublin and Cork so near. This just seems to have spiralled into antoher "I want a regional airport right beside me because xxxx" debate with no real substance other then peoples personal beleifs that they deserve their nearest airport to be upgraded.

I may be devils advocate but surely there are a lot better ways to spend the limited amount of available in tax payer funds these days? Like schools, hospitals, paying frontline emergency staff etc etc? The country is apparently bankrupt with much needed services being cut back yet some are demanding upgrades to regional airports...I mean hello? Reality check?

I never understand why people get so worked up in these discussions, just like they do in the threads about Knock, Kerry and Shannon. All the time I lived in Portlaoise with Dublin and Shannon being approx 100-140Km by road and crap public transport connections I just got on with it and never expected a regional airport to be built near me. Are there not more important things in life to campaign for?

Jamie2k9

I may be devils advocate but surely there are a lot better ways to spend the limited amount of available in tax payer funds these days? Like schools, hospitals, paying frontline emergency staff etc etc? The country is apparantly bankrupt with much needed services being cut back yet some are demanding upgrades to regional airports...I mean hello? Reality check?

I'd much prefer my tax to be spend on the airport and not paying for mothers who make mistake after mistake and think its fine for everybody to pay for it. Ireland is a great place we pay people to have children.

Yes off topic but maybe we shouldn't start a debate on what tax payers money is spent on.

pclancy

OK, rather then focus on state benefits to "mistake making mothers", stay in the context of public services in gerneal, lets say do we think there is sufficient demand from local business and the leisure/tourism industry to make spending 20 million on upgrading a regional airport worthwhile whilst we're in the middle of a recession and most state agencies are facing cutbacks...


If it must be spent on aviation instead of another public service, Would that money not be better spent upgrading an existing jet capable facility such as Dublin or Cork?

FWVT

Neworder79 wrote: »

Realistically only BE have the aircraft, base and interest other than EIR.

- Eastern focused on UK inter-regional niche, no major city bases.
- Don't see Manx (now "Citywing") returning to this market for a long while, and aircraft too small.
- Air Contractors ATRs all under lease, cargo focus.
- Cityjets future in the balance, AF in control, no history with small regionals though they flirted with PSO.
- BA Cityflyer focused on lucrative London City business market.
- Easyjet might have been a contender for a daily LTN/SEN 319 given the short block distance. But shortest runway EZ operate is Jersry 1705m, Gibraltar 1828m and Isle of Man 1840m. Atlantic Airways recently began 319 operations from Faro Islands abut I think that had to be extended to 1800m.

Only airport of WAT size seeing more common 737/319 class jets is Santos Dumont in Rio at 1330. Only possible with a specially designed Boeing 738 modified for the most profitable, busiest route pair in Brazil.

Where is Faro Islands?

Teebor15

You will not fill 100 seats every day to or from where they would fly to out of Waterford and that would be a deal breaker for them.

We went through all this already but, again. If AerArann could get 60 odd pax three times a day when they offered it at their "exspensive" fares then i imagine a LLC would fill a Jet once or twice a day with their "cheap fares". The amount of people leaving the southeast everyday to fly from the other airports because of cheaper flights is astonishing.

The lack of competition out of the airport would mean that fares would be higher than Dublin and Shannon.

Does'nt seem to affect Knock, Kerry or Derry. Speaking of Derry, how is Derry so different than Waterford? Granted its a slightly bigger city but its even closer to Belfast International than Waterford is to any of its nearest airports. And i dont have figures but id hazard a guess thats its catchment area is similir to Waterford about 450/500k people..if even. Yet still it has 5/6 B738 flights daily handling about 400k passengers a year. So what the difference?

There are smaller, and there are larger, that's not really the factor, the important thing is that they go where people in the Waterford area want to go, at convenient times, and at attractive prices

That is the factor though. Who offers the attractive prices?..the low cost carriers..what do low cost carriers fly?..B737/A319/A320s...you see where this is going.

Why would they bother flying jets into Waterford with Dublin and Cork so near

Why would they bother flying jets into Kerry with Shannon and Cork so near

Why would they bother flying jets into Derry with Belfast so near

Why would they bother flying jets into Knock with Shannon so near

I just got on with it and never expected a regional airport to be built near me

Well done..thats why you never got one!

Would that money not be better spent upgrading an existing jet capable facility such as Dublin or Cork?

Upgrading them to/for what? How will that benefit the southeast region more than upgrading Waterford? That would just mean buisness/tourists will be even more likely to stay in thoses areas and avoid the southeast!

Neworder79

FWVT wrote: »

Where is Faro Islands?

Missing the "e", Faroe Islands off Norway.

jamie2K9 wrote:

NOC serves the West of Ireland are you for real. Did it serve the West in 2006/7/8 very well.

Knock had Ryanair, Bmi Baby and Aer Arann operating 9 Scheduled routes, and 6 travel companies operating 13 holiday charters from 2006 - 2008. Pax numbers were 600,000-630,000. So not looking to over egg the pudding, but it was clearly "serving" part of the West of Ireland (the part generally know as "the West", ie Connaught) better than any other regional in terms of services provided at that time, even before it got Ryanair Spanish services.

But Knocks not a real airport, I know... Don't get this hysterical reaction every time the airports mentioned, at least you're a little more objective on the other forum.

irishbloke77

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'd much prefer my tax to be spend on the airport and not paying for mothers who make mistake after mistake and think its fine for everybody to pay for it. Ireland is a great place we pay people to have children.

Yes off topic but maybe we shouldn't start a debate on what tax payers money is spent on.

And I would much prefer an extra nurse or teacher than an extra 300-400 metres of concrete. Different opinions

LeftBase

Teebor15 wrote: »

We went through all this already but, again. If AerArann could get 60 odd pax three times a day when they offered it at their "exspensive" fares then i imagine a LLC would fill a Jet once or twice a day with their "cheap fares". The amount of people leaving the southeast everyday to fly from the other airports because of cheaper flights is astonishing.

If a jet airline puts a 737/A320 on a route from Waterford it will have to be 50-75% full all year to keep the service going. With a service in and a service out per day that is at least 180 pax a day using the service. That's at least 1,260 a week and close to 65,500 people a year at minimum to keep the route operating. That's just with the aircraft half full. A loco will want it 3/4s full in average at least!

As has been said before. Kerry gets a jet service because it is a big tourist destination. Knock serves/served a lot of the West.

I think the stone wall we are hitting here is this. The people of the South East dont really realise the South East is only important to the people of the South East.

Irish Steve

Like others, playing devil's advocate, 3 or 4 hundred metres of concrete is probably more likely over the long term a way to pay for the extra nurse or teacher by generating more economic activity.

I've said it in other places as well, too much of the thinking in this country is controlled by the politicians inability to look beyond the next election, and their chances of getting re elected in that process, so anything that has a payback period of more than 5 years is off their radar, as they won't benefit from it when they want to.

Yes, we'd all like to see more teachers and nurses, but the reality is that we're not using some of what we have now in an efficient manner, so that has to be changed, and we've for sure put more services at state level in to place that were not being properly funded, and we're seeing now where that got us.

The thinking has to change, short term gain only leads to long term pain, so we now need some serious strategic long term thinking that goes beyond parish pump level, and that includes things like transport of all sorts, social structures of things like health, and many other areas. I'm not sure we have people in the right places to do that, the politicians clearly have no skills in this areas, they've demonstrated that only too well over the last while, and I'm not sure that their top level civil servants are any better.

OK, slightly off the thread, but in some respects, not really, in that the use made of regional airports is one of many things that has to be reviewed and considered over the next while. We can afford what we can afford, and right now, that's not much at state level. Longer term, who knows, and therein lies the crunch, we don't know.

Teebor15

If a jet airline puts a 737/A320 on a route from Waterford it will have to be 50-75% full all year to keep the service going. With a service in and a service out per day that is at least 180 pax a day using the service. That's at least 1,260 a week and close to 65,500 people a year at minimum to keep the route operating. That's just with the aircraft half full. A loco will want it 3/4s full in average at least

Here we go again...Waterford-Luton was carrying 75,000 passengers when AerArran offered the 3 66 seater "expensive" flights a day. A daily B737 3/4 full would be about 100,000 a year and and extra flight for the summer months 50,000 plus daily or 3/4 weekly flights to the MAN and BHX and some Flybe type flights to EDI and BIA, maybe even a link to CDG/AMS would be viable if the people of the south east saw their airport as bing a "real" airport and their airport of choice. Plus a few twice weekly flights to the sun in summer and you would'nt be long getting to 350/400k pax figures which would make the small 10-15 million investment worthwhile.

As someone said earlier..no one is saying Waterford is the centre of the universe and should have the next Heathrow. Just a small investment to allow the airport become viable just like similiar airports in the other regions.

As has been said before. Kerry gets a jet service because it is a big tourist destination. Knock serves/served a lot of the West

But Cork and Shannon are both only an hour or so away from Kerry so why does their Jet runway work? Is it because they have a jet service with low fares bringing people directly to and from the region.

Knock serves the north west, Waterford serves the South East

And whats the fundamental difference between Waterford and Derry?

The people of the South East dont really realise the South East is only important to the people of the South East

Obviously!..why would people in one region care about what happens in another region?

Like others, playing devil's advocate, 3 or 4 hundred metres of concrete is probably more likely over the long term a way to pay for the extra nurse or teacher by generating more economic activity.

I've said it in other places as well, too much of the thinking in this country is controlled by the politicians inability to look beyond the next election, and their chances of getting re elected in that process, so anything that has a payback period of more than 5 years is off their radar, as they won't benefit from it when they want to.

Yes, we'd all like to see more teachers and nurses, but the reality is that we're not using some of what we have now in an efficient manner, so that has to be changed, and we've for sure put more services at state level in to place that were not being properly funded, and we're seeing now where that got us.

The thinking has to change, short term gain only leads to long term pain, so we now need some serious strategic long term thinking that goes beyond parish pump level, and that includes things like transport of all sorts, social structures of things like health, and many other areas. I'm not sure we have people in the right places to do that, the politicians clearly have no skills in this areas, they've demonstrated that only too well over the last while, and I'm not sure that their top level civil servants are any better.

OK, slightly off the thread, but in some respects, not really, in that the use made of regional airports is one of many things that has to be reviewed and considered over the next while. We can afford what we can afford, and right now, that's not much at state level. Longer term, who knows, and therein lies the crunch, we don't know.

I agree with what your saying but its very idealistic and never going to happen because people are people and politicians are politicians...everyone for themselves..look out for number one..Its wrong but thats the way it is.. and it aint going to change.

But curious of your opinion..would it be a worthwhile investment?

Irish Steve

I'm probably not the best to be making unbiased judgements on the viability of regional airports, I was very close to being deeply involved with an operator that was planning to operate services from Waterford using ATR's, and that was over 10 years ago, after Ryanair had moved on, and before Aer Arann got their ducks in a row, but for reasons too complex to go into here, it didn't make it, but that was nothing to do with the market at places like Waterford, or Galway, or Knock, or Sligo, and a lot to do with issues at local levels, rivalries, jealousies, and other issues that all combined with some regulatory hurdles to prevent it happening. The pre start up work we did came to nothing, which was incredibly frustrating.

The sums had been done, the loads were there, and the facilities were in place for the operations to be successful. As to how profitable they might have been, we shall never know, but the research, and the results that Ryanair had achieved in a relatively short timescale made it clear that there was (and still is) a niche market for services to places like Waterford, and others, and if Ryanair had not chosen a different growth strategy, which has to be recognised as having been incredibly successful, then who knows what might have developed from the regional airports.

Waterford has a contribution to make in the South East, BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, it needs the South East to come on board and recognise that it will only happen with local support, both financially and strategically, and it needs a less parochial attitude from local politicians to the concept of "their back yard". Supporting Waterford Airport is not a bad idea for South East Politicians, but their mind set is way too focused on "Will I get any votes in my area from this", and like it or not, we have to start moving away from this internicine warfare attitude at a local level, and in that respect, the large multi seat constituencies have done us no favours at all, and my personal feeling is that coalition politics are weak politics, which only damage the ability to make difficult decisions when they are needed.

Realistically, right now, Waterford does not have to have a jet capable runway, but if it were to be upgraded, the area will be opened up to many operators that otherwise could not get in or out. That might mean charters, or scheduled services, or even a mix of both, but they will want to be sure that their operations are safe, and can be carried out reliably, without being hampered by length or other restrictions. That is the down side of things like a single type airline like Ryanair, they can only go to some places, and others that they can go to are limited by their size, so while they can operate from Derry, they can't with a full load of passengers and fuel, as the runway is not long enough for that to happen.

The same would possibly be true at Waterford, it's an issue at Dublin, 28 is not long enough for a fully loaded 747 freighter to operate from, and that happened because the politicians were scared of the Shannon lobby, so did a deal to protect their vote so they effectively crippled the new runway before it was even built. We can't afford those sorts of stroke politics any more, the limits on 28 did nothing to help Shannon, and restricted Irish Exports, the 747F that used to come in from the Far East arrived full, but could not get out full with trip fuel, so it was exports that were hindered, and that aircraft never went near Shannon.

Waterford won't become an alternative to Cork, or Dublin, or Shannon, but with the right promotion, and the creation of some attractive packages that combine flights, and accomodation, and other things like golf, or whatever, there is and will be a market, maybe a niche market, that will allow Waterford to become a stable and longer term part of the Irish Aviation scene.


And, in passing, I live less than 10 miles from Dublin Airport, so there's no way I can be seen as having rose tinted specs on for Waterford.

foxcoverteddy

Irish Steve what an informed post, there certainly appears to be considerable interest in the project, i got a thrill just seeing Waterford on Birmingham arrivals and Departures, apparently there is something lacking at Waterford for it to show on FR24.
Well thank you all with luck we will all meet at WAT.

CelticRambler

Neworder79 wrote: »

Realistically only BE have the aircraft, base and interest other than EIR.

- Eastern focused on UK inter-regional niche, no major city bases.
- Don't see Manx (now "Citywing") returning to this market for a long while, and aircraft too small.
- Air Contractors ATRs all under lease, cargo focus.
- Cityjets future in the balance, AF in control, no history with small regionals though they flirted with PSO.
- BA Cityflyer focused on lucrative London City business market.
- Easyjet might have been a contender for a daily LTN/SEN 319 given the short block distance.

That's a very short list, and all the "wrong" airlines. This - in my opinion - is where Waterford (and economically challenged regional airports) are going wrong. If the best thing anyone in the South East can say about Waterford is "Flybe flies here" then everyone in the region is to blame. You need to make WATERFORD the attraction, get people interested in connecting to the South East and build up a critical mass of travellers for whom Waterford Airport would be the ideal transit point, and - like IrishSteve says - it's got to be a coordinated, coherent, cooperative effort.

But ...

Teebor15 wrote: »

Waterford-Luton was carrying 75,000 passengers when AerArran offered the 3 66 seater "expensive" flights a day. A daily B737 3/4 full would be about 100,000 a year and and extra flight for the summer months 50,000 plus daily or 3/4 weekly flights to the MAN and BHX and some Flybe type flights to EDI and BIA, maybe even a link to CDG/AMS would be viable if the people of the south east saw their airport as bing a "real" airport and their airport of choice. Plus a few twice weekly flights to the sun in summer and you would'nt be long getting to 350/400k pax figures which would make the small 10-15 million investment worthwhile.

this is the greatest obstacle. The ends don't join up.

The airport can be successful with very modest numbers of passengers if the number of movements is "disproportionately high" compared to places like Knock - but that is exactly what the airport needs, and you're not going to see this kind of thing as long as the decision makers put all their faith in the mainstream brands while shunning any company that's willing to experiment. You need operators who do more than just fly from A to B - they've got to have a commercial interest in what happens landside and will drive the traffic for their own reasons.

With three or four small (and I mean tiny) operators providing regular reliable, services - especially to destinations not served by anyone else - the airport could build up it's reputation for providing a unique "experience" which would gradually stimulate further demand and in time created the conditions needed to justify a runway extension.

Taking your question out of context, Teebor:

Teebor15 wrote: »

But curious of your opinion..would it be a worthwhile investment?

To extend the runway? No ... but if I had the funds, I'd buy the airport.

irishbloke77

Teebor15 wrote: »

Here we go again...Waterford-Luton was carrying 75,000 passengers when AerArran offered the 3 66 seater "expensive" flights a day. A daily B737 3/4 full would be about 100,000 a year and and extra flight for the summer months 50,000 plus daily or 3/4 weekly flights to the MAN and BHX and some Flybe type flights to EDI and BIA, maybe even a link to CDG/AMS would be viable if the people of the south east saw their airport as bing a "real" airport and their airport of choice. Plus a few twice weekly flights to the sun in summer and you would'nt be long getting to 350/400k pax figures which would make the small 10-15 million investment worthwhile.

The beauty of having up to 3 flights a day, all be it with a smaller and more expensive airline, is that there is probably a time of flight that suits almost everyone. Only having one flight a day means business people cannot go out and back, there won't be a EARLY EARLY flight to London as the plane must first come in, so again business people might not make meetings, or regular people might not make flight connections etc...
It's a nice idea to think that everyone who got on the 3 Aer Arann flights would all just switch to the 1 larger plane but timings wouldn't suit everyone.

By a quick calculation, if Aer Arann carried 75,000 people a year, that's on average approx 102 people each day each way, and everyone changed to the 1 larger flight, that means a 737-800 would be just under 60% full.

Now, I know the argument will be made that if the right airline offered cheap fares, then maybe more people would fly out of Waterford, that's a fair point. HOWEVER, we all know who the best airline is to attract low cost passengers in reasonably high numbers, to an airport. Is this same airline the best for the airport? Little or no fees paid to the airport and just upping sticks and moving if they have the slightest disagreement with the airport.

I understand that in order to change people's opinions of this being a "real" airport, some people believe you need jet engines rather than propellers. If an airport cant maintain demand on a route with that much capacity, then surely "propeller" flights are better than no flights.

Right now, would imagine that the airport and the southeast would like nothing more than to be back at 75000 pax to London with more elsewhere.

Knock, for example, has passenger figures of 700,000 roughly, yet has no flights to CDG or AMS and only has propeller flights to manchester and Birmingham. Whilst both Cork and Shannon also only have propellor flights to manchest and Birmingham. Maybe outside of Dublin does not have the need for jet sized capacity on these routes.

Lets try to get the airport back to walking before we look at entering into a race against Usain Bolt.

Finally, tried googling it, but where is BIA? Googling it in IATA brings up Biasta airport in France. Whilst probably a lovely place, not sure if that's what's meant, perhaps Belfast or Bristol?

LeftBase

Teebor15 wrote: »

Here we go again...Waterford-Luton was carrying 75,000 passengers when AerArran offered the 3 66 seater "expensive" flights a day. A daily B737 3/4 full would be about 100,000 a year and and extra flight for the summer months 50,000 plus daily or 3/4 weekly flights to the MAN and BHX and some Flybe type flights to EDI and BIA, maybe even a link to CDG/AMS would be viable if the people of the south east saw their airport as bing a "real" airport and their airport of choice. Plus a few twice weekly flights to the sun in summer and you would'nt be long getting to 350/400k pax figures which would make the small 10-15 million investment worthwhile.

A loco will depart Waterford at 7am or so and return at 9:30pm or something. That is not convenient and would drive people to the other airports. The fares for this privilege would be a lot higher too

munchkin_utd

LeftBase wrote: »

A loco will depart Waterford at 7am or so and return at 9:30pm or something. That is not convenient and would drive people to the other airports. The fares for this privilege would be a lot higher too

not convenient for whom?
I have flight times like that to Munich and find them very convienent.

I can work a full day on a Friday and get the 8pm flight from Munich to dublin and on a Monday the 7am leaving Dublin allows me to get a reasonable enough days work done in Munich should the 4pm on the Sunday not suit (wanting to watch an all ireland final being one thing that would get in the way of the 4pm!)

mid morning and early afternoon flights are useless for those who have to work for a living, unless you are travelling on business and are ok with wasting the best part of the day enroute from a to b.

Teebor15

Thanks Irish Steve for your well thought out and intelligent reply.

Can anyone offer an arguement why waterford is so different from Derry?

I understand that in order to change people's opinions of this being a "real" airport, some people believe you need jet engines rather than propellers. If an airport cant maintain demand on a route with that much capacity, then surely "propeller" flights are better than no flights.

Right now, would imagine that the airport and the southeast would like nothing more than to be back at 75000 pax to London with more elsewhere.

Knock, for example, has passenger figures of 700,000 roughly, yet has no flights to CDG or AMS and only has propeller flights to manchester and Birmingham. Whilst both Cork and Shannon also only have propellor flights to manchest and Birmingham. Maybe outside of Dublin does not have the need for jet sized capacity on these routes.

Lets try to get the airport back to walking before we look at entering into a race against Usain Bolt.

Yes..i understand what your saying, but i think as has been said before there is limited "Prop" operators out there at the moment and the airport needs to make the jump to cater LCC to get the passenger throughput to put it on a sustainable level like the other regionals.

Finally, tried googling it, but where is BIA? Googling it in IATA brings up Biasta airport in France. Whilst probably a lovely place, not sure if that's what's meant, perhaps Belfast or Bristol?

Sorry..yeah meant BRS.(Bristol)

A loco will depart Waterford at 7am or so and return at 9:30pm or something. That is not convenient and would drive people to the other airports. The fares for this privilege would be a lot higher too

Again...your waffle just baffles me!

Anyway i think we have done it too death at this stage. We all have our own opinions which is fair enough as long as they are logical and have a bit of common sense thrown in. Cheers

LeftBase

munchkin_utd wrote: »

not convenient for whom?
I have flight times like that to Munich and find them very convienent.

I can work a full day on a Friday and get the 8pm flight from Munich to dublin and on a Monday the 7am leaving Dublin allows me to get a reasonable enough days work done in Munich should the 4pm on the Sunday not suit (wanting to watch an all ireland final being one thing that would get in the way of the 4pm!)

mid morning and early afternoon flights are useless for those who have to work for a living, unless you are travelling on business and are ok with wasting the best part of the day enroute from a to b.

And there in is the issue. Business travelers to Waterford? That will not sustain a route like is being spoken about. To be able to sustain a business traveler based route you need them coming both ways and given the main economic centres are Dublin and Cork that will be a little slow on the ground. To be honest any large number of people involved in international commerce/industry will most likely have relocated to the urban areas anyway to better facilitate their work. You will not get enough business travelers in the SE to support that route.

Aside from business you have the families heading away for a weekend or longer. There will never be the steady demand needed to support a route to Spain/France on a constant basis. Perhaps a 2/3 weekly charter for 3 months of summer, but again you would need a runway upgrade and facilities upgrade too to handle the jets. You would need engineering facilities and a much higher standard of handling. Is the investment really worth it just for those 3 flights a week for 3 months?

There are a lot of people posting here about the merits of an airport in the SE however there are many who do not understand the thinking of loco airlines and the criteria they look at then starting up a route. Ryanair/Easyjet etc will not fly to Waterford because it does not serve anywhere of great interest to them. Cork serves the same area just as well in their book and Ryanair already fly there. Airports like Beauvais, Southend and Prestwick etc serve a larger(although not always close by) urban area and that is the Ryanair model.
One way I can see Waterford becoming a jet airport is if for example if Ryanair pulled out of Cork after a disagreement with the Authority and were looking for another airport nearby. Then perhaps Waterford could ride to the rescue and become "North East Cork Airport"(by no means a stretch by Ryanair terms). However a loco would tear Waterford apart. The airport authority would have their income totally dependent on airlines that are the gangsters of the airline world. All routes, times, fees and schedules would be set out by the bean-counters at the airline and the Airport Authority wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they were to protest. Passenger numbers would never be big enough to prevent the airlines just walking away when they didn't get their way. The proximity of all the other airports does nothing to help this.

The fact remains that with the current airport structure in Ireland, demographics, facilities at Waterford and the cost to upgrade them to jet capable levels and loco attitudes/dominance in the short haul market Waterford is just not a runner as anything bigger than it currently is.

I respect the people here looking to campaign to improve the SE but some are coming across as small town "hicks" who are looking to get involved in a very dangerous game with the Ryanair/Easyjet big city boys. I just spotted Teebor labeling my post as "waffle" so I will state again that some people here just have no clue how locos work and the "new one" they would tear Waterford if they decided to get involved there.