Waterford Airport

Neworder79

Teebor15 wrote: »

Can anyone offer an arguement why waterford is so different from Derry?

- Ryanair.
- Higher population density, 4th city on island, Metro area 237,000.
- Ryanair.
- 2000m runway.
- Ryanair.

pclancy

When people campaign for a cause they feel just its easy to feel like any other viewpoint is an attack on your values and principles. Local action groups across the country build very strong and often emotionally charged cases for campaiginng for what they beleive in having, be it a new library, MRI machine for their local hospital, not having their Garda station close etc. This airport debate is along the same lines.

I can totally see the merit in wanting a good tourist and business connection for my local town. Having something like Waterford in the Midlands would be great and benefit Laois/Offally/Tip just in the same way an upgraded Waterford would. But I know it will never happen because the maths just dont add up.

The cold reality of business and economics means that if a larger airline was to come to Waterford they would very much do so on their own terms and the suggested economic benefits and passenger numbers would be doubtful to materialize. A long time in business has taught me to be very cold on vague figures and ideals and focus on cold hard facts and economics. The "Cork North East" model from Ryanair is the only thing I could see happening.

By the way lads, nobody is trying to attack your good cause for an upgraded airport for personal gain etc, these are people who work in the industry for LOCO or normal airlines and are aware of the cold hard facts from experience. Please don't take it too personally when people are picking apart your ideas.

Teebor15

To be honest any large number of people involved in international commerce/industry will most likely have relocated to the urban areas anyway to better facilitate their work.

Define "the urban areas"? Do you mean the "larger" urban areas with the better infrastructure like Jet Capable runways. Maybe if the south east had a jet capable runway they might not move to "the urban areas" and stay/set up here instead and improve the economy of the region thus making the small investment worthwhile.

Perhaps a 2/3 weekly charter for 3 months of summer

Well id estimate a higher demand than that..If kerry, Knock and Derry can support more then so can Waterford. I imagine 6/7 flights a week for the full summer schedule.(6 months). If your matching the air fares with the other nearest airports you also can pull pax from other regions if you can still offer the hassle free service only small airports can provide. Example if you live in Naas and its the same price to fly to spain either from Dublin or Waterford. There can be little difference in time (Door to take-off) many people would choose Waterford.

but again you would need a runway upgrade and facilities upgrade too to handle the jets

Exactly!!

You would need engineering facilities

Why?..what engineering facilities have the other regionals?

a much higher standard of handling

Nonsense..whats the difference in turning around a Dash 8 as opposed to a 737. Couple of extra staff and a mobile stairs.

there are many who do not understand the thinking of loco airlines

I presume thats pointed at me. Of course i understand how the LLCs operate. They want everything for nothing..in fact they may even want you to pay them to service a route. They carry the passengers and its up to you to make money on car parking, shops, dep levy etc.. And yes it can be like making a deal with the devil..we all know what happened in Shannon. But Shannon is a basket case anyway with the power the unions have. But i dont see Ryanair harming the other regionals. And im not saying its all about getting into bed with O'Leary. The runway at present is too small to support the majority of carriers. As we can see at the moment with the difficulty the airport is having in replacing London. Easyjet and others would be an option if you could keep Ryanair out so would aerlingus mainline with a A319. Flybe with a E195, Jet 2 with a B733and there could be others. Get them doing the main routes and turboprops doing the thinner routes.

However a loco would tear Waterford apart. The airport authority would have their income totally dependent on airlines that are the gangsters of the airline world. All routes, times, fees and schedules would be set out by the bean-counters at the airline and the Airport Authority wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they were to protest.

Has it torn the other regionals apart?

Airports like Beauvais, Southend and Prestwick etc serve a larger(although not always close by) urban area and that is the Ryanair model

That is not the only Ryanair model. They fly into dozens of cities/regions just like Waterford/south east all over europe. Have a look at there route map.

The fact remains that with the current airport structure in Ireland, demographics, facilities at Waterford and the cost to upgrade them to jet capable levels and loco attitudes/dominance in the short haul market Waterford is just not a runner as anything bigger than it currently is.

I totally disagree. But sure im only a small town hick!

Teebor15

- Ryanair.
- Higher population density, 4th city on island, Metro area 237,000.
- Ryanair.
- 2000m runway.
- Ryanair.

I'm not sure if you feel your genuinely answering the question or just being smart. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

My question is what is the difference between Derry airport and Waterford Airport. Similiar sized catchment areas. Derry may be a larger urban area but outside of that its catchment area is really only Donegal and parts of tyrone. Any furthur south is Knock, Belfast and Dublin.

Both have bigger neighbours in Cork and Belfast. In fast Belfast is closer and bigger to Derry than Cork is to Waterford.

I dont see any fundamental difference. If it can work at Derry it can work at Waterford.

LeftBase

Teebor15 wrote: »

Define "the urban areas"? Do you mean the "larger" urban areas with the better infrastructure like Jet Capable runways. Maybe if the south east had a jet capable runway they might not move to "the urban areas" and stay/set up here instead and improve the economy of the region thus making the small investment worthwhile.

Yes because Dublin and Cork sprouted up when we built a jet capable runway.....

Even if you build a jet capable runway in Waterford you will not see the large multinationals relocated from the Capital and other centre(s) of commerce.

Well id estimate a higher demand than that..If kerry, Knock and Derry can support more then so can Waterford. I imagine 6/7 flights a week for the full summer schedule.(6 months). If your matching the air fares with the other nearest airports you also can pull pax from other regions if you can still offer the hassle free service only small airports can provide. Example if you live in Naas and its the same price to fly to spain either from Dublin or Waterford. There can be little difference in time (Door to take-off) many people would choose Waterford.

You would need at least 22,000 people flying over those 6 months. I would doubt Waterford could pull that many people back from other airports.

The flight times as I have said before will be the main issue. They will be be early morning out/late evening back meaning that families will have to be at the airport early with knackered kids and arrive home late again with knackered kids. If you live in Naas why go to Waterford for 7am when you can go to Dublin for a late morning or early afternoon departure. An airline like Ryanair will look at it's books and taking your example above(people in the middle area like Naas) think like this: We have a flight departing Dublin for Malaga at 8am, 11am, 3pm, and 10pm. We have no need for a flight to Malaga from Waterford then. We can operate a full aircraft from Dublin rather than 2 half full aircraft from Dublin and Waterford. They are not likely to put a flight on in Waterford that will split their passenger take at Dublin in 2. It's a waste of fuel and aircraft.

Why?..what engineering facilities have the other regionals?

If your aircraft lands with a little tech issue you need the facilities at the airport to fix it in order to avoid an aircraft getting stranded. Ryanair are not fans of flying engineers in to fix stuff.

Nonsense..whats the difference in turning around a Dash 8 as opposed to a 737. Couple of extra staff and a mobile stairs.

The less said about that the better...

But i dont see Ryanair harming the other regionals. And im not saying its all about getting into bed with O'Leary. The runway at present is too small to support the majority of carriers. As we can see at the moment with the difficulty the airport is having in replacing London. Easyjet and others would be an option if you could keep Ryanair out so would aerlingus mainline with a A319. Flybe with a E195, Jet 2 with a B733and there could be others. Get them doing the main routes and turboprops doing the thinner routes.

Ryanair try their best to harm the regionals. Kerry's tourist numbers keep them in their and in Knock they are not the only show in town. Aer Lingus are there too but do no compete with Ryanair on most routes. They do not have monopoly over the fortunes like they would if an airport sprouted up in Waterford and Ryanair were the only ones there.

Once a loco comes into the Irish market Ryanair will come in too and run a lower cost service to drive them out again. Ryanair are famous for starting loss making routes backed by huge cash reserves just to kick another airline off a route that is even close to their's. Once the other airline leaves so do Ryanair.

That is not the only Ryanair model. They fly into dozens of cities/regions just like Waterford/south east all over europe. Have a look at there route map.

With ethnic links or bigger populations. They fly to North Africa from Beauvais because of the big North African community in Paris for example.

Neworder79

Teebor15: I'm not sure if you feel your genuinely answering the question or just being smart. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Not being smart, juts emphasising the fact that Ryanair is the driver of growth at the busiest regionals (NOC, LDY, KIR), and delivers numbers. They account for almost 500,000 of NOCs passengers. Love or loath, no other airline has that draw, or would have launched anything near 14 routes from NOC.

LDY may have other advantages, located on dual carriageway, denser population, train station, integrated infrastructure, investment in terminal and facilities, historical / family / business connections with UK MAINLAND, civil service and multinationals commuting (DuPont, Investa, Seagate Technology, NTL, Northbrook), remote from the only major hub on the island DUB etc.

However It seems to be stuck around the 400,000 mark and EIR/BE/FR haven't been keen on the airport in recent years. Reliant on the city council for funding. But without the runway extension it wouldn't have been able offer the modest Ryanair UK and sun charter services it has at present.

LeftBase: The flight times as I have said before will be the main issue.

The very early 6am flights you refer to are mainly at major airport bases. But that's certainly not the experience at most small regionals FR fly to where they tend to avail of cheapest mid-day off peak slots. And on city routes like London the regionals would be only delighted to offer more frequency and day return option, but that means far higher operating costs also.

foxcoverteddy

I guess to a degree it is true some of us are small time hicks, I never realised so much went on and also the technical parts.
However is MOL not prepared to give a little, use his expertise to benefit waterford, it can't be take take take.
I am sure no one wants a third "Cork", just something that will bring tourists in, or am i dreaming?

Teebor15

Yes because Dublin and Cork sprouted up when we built a jet capable runway.....

Your totally missing the point!

Even if you build a jet capable runway in Waterford you will not see the large multinationals relocated from the Capital and other centre(s) of commerce

Well i'm not suggesting Microscoft or Coca cola will set up camp in Waterford. But its about improving the overall infrastruture in a region to facilitate the setting up of new business.

They will be be early morning out/late evening back

Where are you getting this from..why do they have to be early/late. Do the sun flights for the other regionals all leave at those times?

They are not likely to put a flight on in Waterford that will split their passenger take at Dublin in 2. It's a waste of fuel and aircraft.

Or they might just put a flight on in the middle of the day (example fly in from one of there spanish bases like they do in the other regionals) to bring the people of the south east on holidays and sure because left base is worried that the region cant support it on its own we might get a few from the periphery who fancy travelling a less stressful way and probably cheaper overall (car parking, etc) through a small airport. Oh hang on the region can support it on its own..and guess what there are a lot of people using that small airport on the south Coast..hey..i've an idea..lets put on more flights!!

Why?..what engineering facilities have the other regionals?

If your aircraft lands with a little tech issue you need the facilities at the airport to fix it in order to avoid an aircraft getting stranded. Ryanair are not fans of flying engineers in to fix stuff.

i'll ask this question again...what exactly do the other regionals have in "engineering facilites"? I'm genuinely curious!

Nonsense..whats the difference in turning around a Dash 8 as opposed to a 737. Couple of extra staff and a mobile stairs.



The less said about that the better...

And if you dont mind i'll ask this question again..please name out what the difference is?

Ryanair try their best to harm the regionals

Do they?..do the regionals know this?...somebody better tell them!!!

They do not have monopoly over the fortunes like they would if an airport sprouted up in Waterford and Ryanair were the only ones there.

Again..just like Derry!

Once a loco comes into the Irish market Ryanair will come in too and run a lower cost service to drive them out again. Ryanair are famous for starting loss making routes backed by huge cash reserves just to kick another airline off a route that is even close to their's. Once the other airline leaves so do Ryanair.

Ok..i'll bite..just say what your saying was a real fear. And you are correct in what you say about Ryanairs predetory tactics. But if thats was the airports managements fear then there is always the option of expanding but preventing ryanair from coming in by setting your aerodrome reference code and/or fire service cat a level just below. Which would allow E195/A319/B733 but not B738.

With ethnic links

Just like all the paddies coming and going to the Uk from the south east in there drove every day!

Teebor15

Not being smart, juts emphasising the fact that Ryanair is the driver of growth at the busiest regionals (NOC, LDY, KIR), and delivers numbers. They account for almost 500,000 of NOCs passengers. Love or loath, no other airline has that draw, or would have launched anything near 14 routes from NOC.

Exactly! But the whole point of this thread is that Ryanair (or similiar) cant deliver that to the south east region until the small investment of 10-15 million to expand the runway is made.

LDY may have other advantages, located on dual carriageway, denser population, train station, integrated infrastructure, investment in terminal and facilities, historical / family / business connections with UK MAINLAND, civil service and multinationals commuting (DuPont, Investa, Seagate Technology, NTL, Northbrook), remote from the only major hub on the island DUB etc.

Waterford has all new roads to the airport in recent years. The new M9 motorway cuts straight through the region to the new city bypass which brings you directly onto the new outer ring road (all dual carriageway) the onto the new airport road straight to tyh eterminal front door. As ive said previously..its just the bit at the end thats lacking..the airport!! Train station at Waterford. Surely the south east would have similiar connections as derry.

However It seems to be stuck around the 400,000 mark and EIR/BE/FR haven't been keen on the airport in recent years. Reliant on the city council for funding.

400,000 is far better than 80,000. So what if the airport requires a small handout to keep it ticking along every year..i'm sure the 400k throughput are more than paying that back to the region.

But without the runway extension it wouldn't have been able offer the modest Ryanair UK and sun charter services it has at present.

Again we hear those magic words "runway extension"!

The very early 6am flights you refer to are mainly at major airport bases. But that's certainly not the experience at most small regionals FR fly to where they tend to avail of cheapest mid-day off peak slots

Thats what i was thinking!

Neworder79

Even if Ryanair did play WAT and ORK off after a few years, it would still be a far better position than the airport is in today with no London connection and the threat of closure. They would build demand, draw first time users from across the region and UK with low fares, bring in income and investment in the airport, leaving a proven market that others would be keen to take up if they followed through (which despite the bluster and hype they rarely do when a routes are profitable).

Neworder79

Teebor15 wrote: »

So what if the airport requires a small handout to keep it ticking along every year..i'm sure the 400k throughput are more than paying that back to the region.

I think this is the key if the regions are to ever overcome the funding uncertainty and constant arguments over national subsidy. The airports should be supported by the relevant regional authorities.

However this would require sensible local/regional government structures, when we're still wedded to the GAA county flag waving gombeen model (Ferrybank / Waterford city boundary is a case in point).

LeftBase

Teebor15 wrote: »

Well i'm not suggesting Microscoft or Coca cola will set up camp in Waterford. But its about improving the overall infrastruture in a region to facilitate the setting up of new business.

An airport with 2 flights a day will not make any great ground as far as investment goes. Trying to grow the region around an airport given what's already there is fantasy

Where are you getting this from..why do they have to be early/late. Do the sun flights for the other regionals all leave at those times?

To small airports locos operate in early and out late. It means that the aircraft is flying the higher pax number sectors during the day.

Or they might just put a flight on in the middle of the day (example fly in from one of there spanish bases like they do in the other regionals) to bring the people of the south east on holidays and sure because left base is worried that the region cant support it on its own we might get a few from the periphery who fancy travelling a less stressful way and probably cheaper overall (car parking, etc) through a small airport. Oh hang on the region can support it on its own..and guess what there are a lot of people using that small airport on the south Coast..hey..i've an idea..lets put on more flights!!

The South East cannot support it's own daily route to the levels a loco wants and thinking otherwise is fantasy. As I said before unless the people of the South East are jetting all over the world daily the numbers just are not there.

i'll ask this question again...what exactly do the other regionals have in "engineering facilites"? I'm genuinely curious!

Any airline will want it's engineers(or contracted engineers) on site to fix any tech issues that crop up. Since an operation into Waterford would be small fry there would most likely be no full time airline engineers there and so there would need to be an engineering company present for operations to start.



And if you dont mind i'll ask this question again..please name out what the difference is?

(dash v 737)

A) Jet bigger...more people and bags. Better passenger and baggage facilities needed.

Gates/stands - They would need to be made bigger and the apron/building redesigned accordingly.

C) Taxiways - may need to be re-done to support the weight of jets passing over them over and over

Again..just like Derry!

Why do you keep going on about Derry?? It covers almost the whole Northwest along with some of NI. It runs the same service as Waterford does most the year round too.

Ok..i'll bite..just say what your saying was a real fear. And you are correct in what you say about Ryanairs predetory tactics. But if thats was the airports managements fear then there is always the option of expanding but preventing ryanair from coming in by setting your aerodrome reference code and/or fire service cat a level just below. Which would allow E195/A319/B733 but not B738.

Right we'll assume Easyjet have money to burn and they enter the Irish market. They provoke Ryanair and even if Ryanair cannot enter Waterford for the above reasons you mention they will attack Easyjet elsewhere in Europe. Perhaps they'd target Southend or Israel for example.
Another issue would be the fact that a small regional route would most likely only be able to operate to an Easyjet base due to scheduling. So only Spanish route would be Madrid.

Just like all the paddies coming and going to the Uk from the south east in there drove every day!

No....it's not

lotusm

Just putting the question out there, but is there any politicians in the South East bringing up funding for WAT. Is WAT an election issue in any of the elections either national or local... In my opionion if it anit coming up on the door step by the electorate it must not be a that big of an issue and therefore passengers are satisfied in going to either Cork or Dublin

Also does much it make of a profit after the govt subsidy ?:rolleyes:

Teebor15

An airport with 2 flights a day will not make any great ground as far as investment goes. Trying to grow the region around an airport given what's already there is fantasy

Who said 2 flights a day? Its not growing a region around an airport..the expanded airport would be a major part of the transport infrasture already there. These things dont work in individually.

To small airports locos operate in early and out late. It means that the aircraft is flying the higher pax number sectors during the day.

Where are you getting this from? Its utter nonsense. Locos fly into small airports at all times of the day..Kerry has two ryanair flights today both in the afternoon. Knock has 5 ryanair flights today..all between 11am and 4pm. Derry has 3 ryanair flights today. all between 1pm and 6pm. This is what i'm talking about..is this really what you think or do you just come up with it on the spot.

The South East cannot support it's own daily route to the levels a loco wants and thinking otherwise is fantasy. As I said before unless the people of the South East are jetting all over the world daily the numbers just are not there.

How do you know what a loco wants? Does every airport that the locos fly into have huge numbers? No, in fact most of the airports Ryanair fly into have only 1,2 or 3 flights a day..all similiar airports to the Irish Regionals. Even 1 flight a day will interest a loco if it makes money.

Any airline will want it's engineers(or contracted engineers) on site to fix any tech issues that crop up. Since an operation into Waterford would be small fry there would most likely be no full time airline engineers there and so there would need to be an engineering company present for operations to start.

I'll cut you some slack here. If they were going to base an aircraft at an airport then yes..they may prefer or require an engineer present. But thats not likely to happen..just like all the other regionals it would be a fly in/fly out operation no onsite engineering required. I would put my house on it there is no fulltime engineering facilities at the other regionals .And even if it was a based aircraft. "Engineering facilities" is just a man with a van!

And if you dont mind i'll ask this question again..please name out what the difference is?

(dash v 737)

A) Jet bigger...more people and bags. Better passenger and baggage facilities needed.

Gates/stands - They would need to be made bigger and the apron/building redesigned accordingly.

C) Taxiways - may need to be re-done to support the weight of jets passing over them over and over

So as i said..another couple of lads to throw bags. Extend the arrivals hall if required..a couple of thousand.

We already talked about gates stands. An extra few metres of concrete on the apron. The apron can already park up to 5 dash 8's. 3 on the main and 2 north of the fire station if really required. Apron redeisigned? a few tins of paint!!

Taxiways are fine.

Even if this is all required..lets say a million of the 10/15 million is allocated to this.

Why do you keep going on about Derry?? It covers almost the whole Northwest along with some of NI. It runs the same service as Waterford does most the year round too.

I keep going on about Derry because its almost identical to Waterford senario. Similar catchment area. Bigger airport down the road, but is handling 400k passengers with an extended runway with a jet operator. If it can work there then it can work in Waterford. You have yet to tell me the difference between the two. You just put your hands over your ears when i say it because you know i'm right!

Right we'll assume Easyjet have money to burn and they enter the Irish market. They provoke Ryanair and even if Ryanair cannot enter Waterford for the above reasons you mention they will attack Easyjet elsewhere in Europe. Perhaps they'd target Southend or Israel for example.

Thats a fair point.

Another issue would be the fact that a small regional route would most likely only be able to operate to an Easyjet base due to scheduling. So only Spanish route would be Madrid

Not necessarily. Ever here of a "W" route. Say fly in from Luton or Liverpool then out to spain then back from spain then home to LTN/LPL. Simple.

Just like all the paddies coming and going to the Uk from the south east in there drove every day!

No....it's not

Whats the difference. Are the Irish not an ethnic group in the UK.

They fly to North Africa from Beauvais because of the big North African community in Paris for example.

They fly to South East Ireland from Luton because of the big Irish community living in London for example.

Teebor15

Just putting the question out there, but is there any politicians in the South East bringing up funding for WAT. Is WAT an election issue in any of the elections either national or local... In my opionion if it anit coming up on the door step by the electorate it must not be a that big of an issue and therefore passengers are satisfied in going to either Cork or Dublin

Yes it is an election issue.

Quote from Paudie Coffey TD for waterford a couple of years back. "He added, “Waterford Airport’s runway extension is firmly back on the agenda. Waterford Airport needs a longer runway if it is to be able to handle larger planes and more international services. Plans to extend the runway are on hold because of the financial crisis. The report by Colin Buchanan and Partners gives us the facts to argue the case for Waterford Airport. I welcome the Oireachtas Transport Committee examination of our country’s airports and look forward to making the case for investment in Waterford.”

And a link from another TD John Deasy singing the same tune.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.munster-express.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fplugins%2Fas-pdf%2Fgenerate.php%3Fpost%3D39786&ei=6RtCUemOC6LC7Aayn4HwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHhZ19QrMGpNT1Vy_eH_gdCkAluuQ&sig2=d9pbNejpSJWybA3tTkafVA

Its always mentioned in the same line as upgrading the W.I.T to university status and the second river crossing (which we now have). When ever the airport is menetioned on local radio the first question thats asked is when will runway be extended. Even last week when Manchester flights were announced it was the first thing the Waterford "Pat kenny" asked. I can provide a link if you really want.



Go on to the Waterford city forum and you'll see a thread where people were asked what they would do with x amount of million and many said "expand the airport"

Also does much it make of a profit after the govt subsidy?

Not sure what the roll eyes are about. Go way and read about what the OPEX subsidy is for and come back and we can talk!

notharrypotter

Hi,

here are 2 links.

The first is to the Governments proposal seeking comments from the public on aviation in Ireland.

The reply e-mail is on page 7.

Any suggestions as to how to develop any airport in Ireland should be sent here.


The second is from post 36 in the SE region of boards.ie - Waterford City

"Waterford Airport in Danger of Closing!?"


Paudie Coffey tweeted this department of transport report.


This is a link to the value for money study that was done in 2009/2010 on state supports for the regional airports.


http://transport.ie/uploads/document...ssuesPaper.pdf

http://t.co/GPwKqlq

CelticRambler

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

However is MOL not prepared to give a little, use his expertise to benefit waterford, it can't be take take take.

It is. LoCos are not designed to bring business to any particular region, they take take take, usually by transfering their costs to the local community. This comes in the form of car park charges, departure taxes (called "development fees"), overpriced food and drink and good old fashioned subsidies. And when there's nothing more to be had, they go.

Forget MOL's propaganda about creating 1 job for every thousand passengers or whatever the current rate is, and forget this idea that LoCos stimulate growth. They don't. The very most they can do is give an already motivated and consolidated community the impetus to develop themselves.

That is what's missing in Waterford. Don't go looking for comparisons in Ireland. Kerry, Derry, Knock - they're not anything like Waterford for all kinds of reasons. Look instead at the regional airports in Britain, Germany and (the ones I know best) France. MOL receives a huge amount of money to deliver passengers to dinky little airports, usually twice a week, usually Mar/April to Oct/Nov max. What does that do for the local economy? Precious little, because the passengers arriving are not spending in the area - they're taking advantage of the subsidised fares to land somewhere close-enough to where they're going. And when they do the sums and the answer comes out different, they've got zero loyalty.

I've said it already: the very last thing Waterford needs are bargain hunters. The airport can and should present itself as a premium service facility, concentrating on building up as many different connections as possible, using the perfectly satisfactory existing facilities and not saddling itself with (more) unpayable debt.

Again, as I said before: I would really love to operate to/from WAT - but if you guys believe that your salvation lies in LoCos, then ... "I'm out!"

lotusm

Not sure what the roll eyes are about. Go way and read about what the OPEX subsidy is for and come back and we can talk![/QUOTE]

No need to get so sensetive.. I was just asking the question:rolleyes: Knock and Kerry are just about making a profit after they get the Subsidy. The government are saying that it is ending in 2014.

The government cease giving it to Sligo and Galway and they both closed shortly after to commerical airlines...

foxcoverteddy

So what are the next steps to be, who will break any news coming from ye who know these things.
it cannot be allowed to fizzle out without a fight can it?

b757

Flybe have just loaded MAN and BHX's winter schedule from WAT up to Friday 21st February.

Looks like they could be here year round..

No news on a London route, could be after summer by the time one comes available.

munchkin_utd

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

So what are the next steps to be, who will break any news coming from ye who know these things.
it cannot be allowed to fizzle out without a fight can it?

the last I looked FlyBe had return flights for 75euro incl all taxes to Manchester at decent times (i.e. Friday to Sunday and not random midweek afternoons)
You could connect onwards to paris for something like 150return.

If that isnt brilliant value that should entice the folk of Waterford and the environs to use their local airport then I give up.

fricatus

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the last I looked FlyBe had return flights for 75euro incl all taxes to Manchester at decent times (i.e. Friday to Sunday and not random midweek afternoons)
You could connect onwards to paris for something like 150return.

If that isnt brilliant value that should entice the folk of Waterford and the environs to use their local airport then I give up.

That's pretty good now in fairness... might even have a word with the missus!

CelticRambler

Can't see any 75€ fares myself - it's coming up as 87-110 for me. Connection times aren't that great either - dep WAT 1230 arr CDG 2000, so close enough to 2100 by the time you get to the centre of Paris. 8 hours including check-in, and an extra 10€ for the train.

If Waterford Management played ball, I could get you to the Eiffel Tower in 4 hours, for 126€ each way plus 12€ train fare but stay where you land (it's much more romantic) and spend the 12€ on food.

Find me 1200 people who think that's a reasonable deal and I'll give you twice weekly flights (We/Sa) for four months (Jul/Aug-Oct/Nov). And you get one other well-known, underserved "niche" Euro destination too. Fully flexible tickets, valid for either destination ...

In fact, if anyone wants to take the "you" in that sentence personally, I'll give you two return tickets to both destinations. Make up the numbers any way you want, max 45/flight.

Teebor15

Ok i'll bite..

If Waterford Management played ball

Define/elaborate "played ball"?

Find me 1200 people who think that's a reasonable deal and I'll give you twice weekly flights

Is'nt that up to you to find the passengers. Your the airline! I'm sure you would want the airport to help with marketing but maybe 1200 is such a small number that the the airport resorces, both time and money (what little they would have for marketing) are fully committed to promoting the existing routes and trying to restore the breadwinning london route.

Am i right in saying that for your venture you would need 1200 to break even or make a profit. So thats 1200 / 16 weeks = 75passengers / 4 sector per week = 18 passengers per flight. Or is the 1200 over both destinations so 9 per flight. Or does the one flight stop at first destination then on to second?

max 45/flight

Is that the capacity of the aircraft? What aircraft has 45 seats? genuinely curious.

foxcoverteddy

Don't know about you but things are looking good, if we can get to la belle france, then we must hope they will want to do the same with us.
One of our problems is we are not exactly over loaded with attractions ala Paris and restaurants or creperies are a bit thin on the ground.
Then perhaps there might be talk of expanding our airport?
They do say dreams can come true. well done everyone

Johnny901

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Don't know about you but things are looking good, if we can get to la belle france, then we must hope they will want to do the same with us.
One of our problems is we are not exactly over loaded with attractions ala Paris and restaurants or creperies are a bit thin on the ground.
Then perhaps there might be talk of expanding our airport?
They do say dreams can come true. well done everyone

Have you heard some news about expansion at Waterford ?

It is great news that Flybe have made the winter timetable available, but the London route still isn't available from Waterford so I don't know why you would be celebrating ??

Teebor15

Don't know about you but things are looking good, if we can get to la belle france, then we must hope they will want to do the same with us.
One of our problems is we are not exactly over loaded with attractions ala Paris and restaurants or creperies are a bit thin on the ground.
Then perhaps there might be talk of expanding our airport?
They do say dreams can come true. well done everyone

With all due respect..what are you on about?

CelticRambler

Teebor15 wrote: »

Define/elaborate "played ball"?

First, having got the cold shoulder treatment several times over, I haven't been back to WAT management lately, but my checklist includes free parking,
free (use of) exhibition space,
free (use of) retail space in the terminal
a small office space
occasional access to and use of a 500m² (or bigger) space for public events - something like an aircraft hangar, but a community hall or other such space in the city would be fine.
Access to a database of just about every business and other potential user in the catchment area.

They're my base-line requirements, and are considered reasonable by other airports with whom I'm negotiating.

Teebor15 wrote: »

Is'nt that up to you to find the passengers. Your the airline!

Nope, I'm not. Maybe that's why "the way it is" looks so wrong to me. My interest is in developing inter-regional commercial, educational and social exchanges, and aeroplanes are the most efficient (and arguably most ecologically friendly) way to move smallish groups of people. For now, I'm using existing airlines. The fare quoted above is on the basis of a firm offer by one specific "premium carrier" in response to my request as stimulated by the conversation on this thread. That'll do for our proof-of-concept operation, but I'm meeting someone next week to see how close we can get to buying his airline by the end of the year. That will allow us to really expand our range of services.

Teebor15 wrote: »

I'm sure you would want the airport to help with marketing but maybe 1200 is such a small number that the the airport resorces, both time and money (what little they would have for marketing) are fully committed to promoting the existing routes and trying to restore the breadwinning london route.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! :eek: Have you seen any airport-led marketing recently. No thanks, we'll do our own ... Besides, we're not interested in promoting either the airport or the 'planes but the commercial and emotional connections between [here] and [there] because that is sustainable.

What we need by way of help from the airport is the database above, and specifically contact details of specific people who can propose specific promotional packages in the areas of business development (e.g. hot-desking, temporary staff, product suppliers, ...), tourism (defined itineraries, niche tourism, sport&activity centres, ...) and culture/education (historical sites/events, school exchanges, music festivals/competions)

Your point about being too small is something that has plagued our discussions for ages. Few people in the aviation industry seem to understand the concept of starting with something small and manageable, but we're not going to promise what we can't deliver. So if management thinks that 1200 incoming passengers and direct flights to two iconic European destinations over 16 weeks is not worth bothering about, we'll take the offer to an airport that does. They'll get the rest of the programme too when it's ready. I'll stress again, however, that management at Waterford haven't had a chance to reject this latest proposal because we only confirmed aircraft cost and availability this week.

(Note to anyone from WAT who might be looking in on this thread - don't feel you've got to wait my e-mail; I've got more than one project to look after and at the moment, this one is on the "good potential" list but not a priority.)

Teebor15 wrote: »

Am i right in saying that for your venture you would need 1200 to break even or make a profit. So thats 1200 / 16 weeks = 75passengers / 4 sector per week = 18 passengers per flight. Or is the 1200 over both destinations so 9 per flight. Or does the one flight stop at first destination then on to second?

Not quite. Divide by 2 sectors per week because the destination communities will provide half the load, so 37.5 average/sector. Breakeven would be 36 on a "big" aircraft but we have a model that can work with 18 too (to avoid suspending the service in the winter, making it more useful to businesses that themselves need time to become established)

Teebor15 wrote: »

Is that the capacity of the aircraft? What aircraft has 45 seats?

ATR 42 & Fokker 50. We have proposals from the operators of both (the quote above is for the Fk50)

@Foxcoverteddy: the French won't come by 'plane on that Flybe service - too complicated when they've got a good choice of direct flights. In France, no-one knows who or what Waterford is, so they won't even go looking for you on wikitravel. (Don't take that as a personal criticism - you probably don't know where Berry is in France ... yet)

Teebor15

Ok..i see what your aiming to do and it certainly is a different way of thinking. For Waterford Airport i dont see it as the primary route to its success, i still believe the runway extension and moving up to the next level is the way forward but since there is no sign of that happening any time soon then i suppose this is another strategy. Actually even if the airport was to acheive its expansion aims there is nothing to prevent your type of operation from going ahead. They would compliment rather than oppose each other.

So i know you said earlier you got a poor response when you came knocking first. So just let me know what happened again. You rang and asked to speak to the CEO and...?

a small office space
occasional access to and use of a 500m² (or bigger) space for public events - something like an aircraft hangar, but a community hall or other such space in the city would be fine.
Access to a database of just about every business and other potential user in the catchment area.

Do you want these free too?

What are the revenue streams for the airport? will you be paying the full published charges as per the website?

Is that the capacity of the aircraft? What aircraft has 45 seats?

ATR 42 & Fokker 50. We have proposals from the operators of both (the quote above is for the Fk50)

Yeah thought it was one of thoses but they normally have 48 or 50 seats so i was wondering.

Well i'm still sceptical that you can get 36 people per flight at nearly 300 euro a return ticket to an unknown destination but then i said the same when AerArann launched Lorient a few years back and they were an immediate hit so who knows. Then again people had more money in there pockets then and were not as price aware as now.

To establish cultural, social, emotiona links takes time..i presume you have deep pockets!!

pclancy

This seems like a lot of commercial information to be putting on a public internet forum.