Photo ID Card?

murphaph

No, this would be a passport card as available in the US for example. It would only be valid for travel in the EU and probably EEA and perhaps a few other countries like Turkey, in time.

It would be extremely convenient for those of us that travel in the Schengen Zone to simply pop the card in your wallet and always have it on you.

All the talk of it being a handy ID for going on the piss cheapens the whole point of this card.

L1011

KCAccidental wrote: »

(Ryanair demanding passports has rendered the free travel area between UK and here pretty redundant to air travellers)

One of five airlines flying between here and the UK doesn't make something redundant for the other four.

KCAccidental

L1011 wrote: »

One of five airlines flying between here and the UK doesn't make something redundant for the other four.

Ryanair carries a lot more passengers between here and UK than the other four though. The card will make it easier for a lot of people.

L1011

KCAccidental wrote: »

Ryanair carries a lot more passengers between here and UK than the other four though. The card will make it easier for a lot of people.

On the last figures I saw, they didn't even carry more to the UK than Aer Lingus alone; let alone the four combined although they've re-grown somewhat since then.

Victor

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have a Public Service Card. Is this what they mean?

No. That is separate.

It has my passport photo and signature (taken from my passport application), my name and PPS number with an expiry date of 2021. No address or date of birth. I do not know what is on the chip - if anything.

The chip has the same stuff as you can see on the card.

I could also have a few other 'official' cards, like a driving licence, a Drugs repayment card, an E111 card, a Social Welfare identity card, a medical card and a bus pass.

The PSC replaces the Social Welfare identity card directly and will replace the bus pass in the next few years (I don't think any new bus passes are being issued). The medical card is likely to be incorporated and likely the drugs repayment card and possibly the E111 / EHIC. They would need doctors, pharmacies and hospitals to be able to read the cards.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have a Public Service Card. Is this what they mean? It has my passport photo and signature (taken from my passport application), my name and PPS number with an expiry date of 2021. No address or date of birth. I do not know what is on the chip - if anything.

No, this will be an additional card, basically the same as what is currently on your passport ID page, but squeezed down to credit card size.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I could also have a few other 'official' cards, like a driving licence, a Drugs repayment card, an E111 card, a Social Welfare identity card, a medical card and a bus pass.

All of these are Government issued cards. Would it not make sense to condense these into fewer cards?

Yes, in most other EU countries, you have a single national ID card that you would use to access all government and banking services.

In typical Irish style, we have instead decided to go with a dozen separate cards because the politicians are afraid some of the public might be "frightened" by the idea of a national ID card.

Here is what we should ideally have.

A national ID card, with your photo, name, date of birth and nationality. The card would also have a chip that stores a variety of additional information which can only be read by the authorized authority:

- Address *
- Driving license details (replaces the driving license)
- Emigration details for migrants (replaces the emigration card they currently carry)
- PPS for social welfare services
- drugs repayment card
- E111 card
- medicare card details
- free travel pass

* You wouldn't print the address on the card, because you wouldn't want someone knowing your address if they found the card and also you want to be able to change the address easily when you move.

You should also put a digital signature on the chip, which can then be used to electronically sign official documents, etc.

L1011

Victor wrote: »

They would need doctors, pharmacies and hospitals to be able to read the cards.

Considering the attempt to make the magstripe on the DPS card readable in pharmacies went, erm, nowhere really they will need to provide rather a lot of carrot in this attempt. One major software vendor for GPs*, two for pharmacy and a handful for hospitals (some are the same firms) on the software side isn't too hard to work but they may need to do what was done in the 1990s and throw 'free', state-funded, hardware at the problem.

*they've not operationally merged as I suspect the Competition Authority would have kittens, but both firms have the same controlling shareholder so its clear they aren't working against each other anymore.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

In typical Irish style, we have instead decided to go with a dozen separate cards because the politicians are afraid some of the public might be "frightened" by the idea of a national ID card.

More to do with the fact that it would leave a few thousand PS workers in multiple departments without a system to "maintain".

Sam Russell

antoobrien wrote: »

More to do with the fact that it would leave a few thousand PS workers in multiple departments without a system to "maintain".

That is true, but they have outsourced some of these cards. In post 58 above I lamented the fact that the new CC driving licence was outsourced to a UK company instead of going to the Passport Office and become a de-facto National ID card.

Another lost opportunity.

Carawaystick

What would be your address?
Where you are staying now? or somewhere more settled longterm where you could collect post?

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

What would be your address?
Where you are staying now? or somewhere more settled longterm where you could collect post?

Your home is where you go at the end of the day.

antoobrien

Victor wrote: »

Your home is where you go at the end of the day.

No, it's not, unless you're a character from the lion king.

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

What would be your address?
Where you are staying now? or somewhere more settled longterm where you could collect post?

I don't believe this card will contain your address, just as your current passport doesn't.

However for arguments sake, on the national ID cards in most of Europe, for instance in Germany, it is the address where you currently reside. If you move, you are meant to go to the local town hall of your new address and the town hall either issues you a new national id card with your new address or often just puts a sticker with your new address on the card and an official stamp.

If we were to issue a national ID card, then it would be better if your address wasn't physically written on your card, but instead stored digitally on the cards chip. If you move address then you could go to the town hall/Garda station/social welfare office to update the address.

Other government departments, the post office and banks could then have readers that can read the address only, but not change it.

A much more private and secure method of storing your address. Though in fairness the European system works well too, having been in place for more then 50 years.

Carawaystick

So if you stay somewhere 3 nights a week and somewhere else 4 nights, do you change your official address 2 times a week?

Also how do you prove it's your address?

Sam Russell

You have an official address. It is the one used for official correspondence like tax bills and bank statements. It is where summonses will be sent. It is not where you go on holiday for two weeks a year.

If you have two possible addresses, you select the one you consider your 'main' address.

munchkin_utd

if its a passport replacement card then it'll have no more info than a passport, which means no address.

in Ireland a bank statement or similar official post is acceptable to proove your address with banks and whatnot so no need to have it on an ID card in the first place.

bk

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if its a passport replacement card then it'll have no more info than a passport, which means no address.

Correct, as you say, this card won't have an address on it.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

in Ireland a bank statement or similar official post is acceptable to proove your address with banks and whatnot so no need to have it on an ID card in the first place.

But then there is a catch 22, what if you don't have a bank account. How do you then open a bank account?

What if you are a foreign student, new to the country, newly moved into an apartment with other people and have no bills in your name (they are already in someone elses name)?

There are lots of people in this sort of situation.

To open a bank account in Ireland you need ID and two bills with your address on them. But increasingly bills are only being sent by email, to save money and help the environment, but banks won't accept print outs of these bills!! Again another catch 22.

The whole system is a total mess.

There are ways around this issue, but if involves going to and paying a lot of money to a notary to validate your address.

It would be much simpler if we had national ID cards with the address on it issued by your local gardai or town hall.

Then instead of ID and two bills to open a bank account, sign up to a mobile contract, etc. your single national ID card will do. Like it does in pretty much everywhere in mainland Europe.

murphaph

Cue the cries of "but what about our civil liberties..."

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

Cue the cries of "but what about our civil liberties..."

These only come into play if it is a criminal offence not to carry you ID card. If it is only meant to be a way of proving your identity, Then I would think it is hard not to accept it as normal, just like a driving licence (which could morph into a national ID card).

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

These only come into play if it is a criminal offence not to carry you ID card. If it is only meant to be a way of proving your identity, Then I would think it is hard not to accept it as normal, just like a driving licence (which could morph into a national ID card).

The civil liberties brigade will bemoan compulsory registration of abode required to implement what bk (sensibly) suggests. If you don't have that (as most every continental European country has) then you can't reliably include an address on (or in the chip of) the national ID card, compulsory or otherwise.

Basically for a national ID card with address field to work, there has to be a stick involved. In Germany, for example, it is a legal requirement to register any change of address within 7 days or you face a fine.

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

The civil liberties brigade will bemoan compulsory registration of abode required to implement what bk (sensibly) suggests. If you don't have that (as most every continental European country has) then you can't reliably include an address on (or in the chip of) the national ID card, compulsory or otherwise.

Basically for a national ID card with address field to work, there has to be a stick involved. In Germany, for example, it is a legal requirement to register any change of address within 7 days or you face a fine.

Well, if by address you mean an address that can reliably trace you, that is OK. [For example, your parents address if you live in rented accommodation].

If you mean 'where were you last night?', then I am with the civil liberties group.

I would think an address would not be included, but they do have one on the drivers licence, which is a proto-ID card.

murphaph

There won't be any address on/in this card as it's just a credit card version of the passport.

munchkin_utd

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if by address you mean an address that can reliably trace you, that is OK. [For example, your parents address if you live in rented accommodation].

If you mean 'where were you last night?', then I am with the civil liberties group.

I would think an address would not be included, but they do have one on the drivers licence, which is a proto-ID card.

The German situation is actually not an awful lot more than what happens in Ireland when you move address and tell the dept of revenue or dept of social welfare that you've moved, or indeed declaring a second house as your second rather than primary residence for property tax purposes. You can't really move "silently" in Ireland as it is.
The difference in Germany is just that you only need to tell the town council and they pass the word on to revenue/ welfare (and any other government agencies that need to know you've moved on).
But it's done once and done right

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if by address you mean an address that can reliably trace you, that is OK. [For example, your parents address if you live in rented accommodation].

Well if you live in rented accommodation, then I think you would be expected to register that address.

Most people rent for a minimum of one year, the length of most rental contracts and most people probably rent for much longer, I was 7 years renting in the one place before buying my own place.

If as a student, you stay 4 nights in a rented place and 3 nights in your parents, then it would be fine to leave the address as your parents, as you are easily reachable there. But that is a fairly niche circumstance.

It certainly isn't a case of "where were you last night". You certainly wouldn't be expected to change your address if you stayed at your parents or girlfriends place for a few nights or even weeks, or on holidays in Galway etc.

It really just comes down to where do you get official correspondence sent (bank statements, tax letters, etc.). It actually isn't much different to what we have here in Ireland already. Just less centralised and efficient!

Carawaystick

What address would homeless people use?

GerardKeating

Carawaystick wrote: »

What address would homeless people use?

What ever address they use for claiming social welfare.

SpaceTime

The Government is looking at the possibility of a passport card for use on EU travel routes.
Their logic is that it would reduce loss of passports as it fits in with other cards and it's cheaper to produce should you need a replacement.

trellheim

A fair few people are missing the main point; a person is entitled to presumption that they are who they say they are. Any form of paper or electronic identification can be easily forged as required

Sam Russell

Any form of paper or electronic identification can be easily forged as required

Not if it can be checked easily on a Government database.

Different levels of checking can be used to check that:

1. The ID card is a genuine card and not a forgery.

2. The name on the ID card matches that on the Gov database

3. The photo on the ID card matches the database - they should be the same.

4. The holder of the card matches the two photos, the one of the card and the one on the database - people change and age.

Just name and photo would be simple. Checking DofB and address would need higher clearance.

murphaph

trellheim wrote: »

A fair few people are missing the main point; a person is entitled to presumption that they are who they say they are. Any form of paper or electronic identification can be easily forged as required

Disagree on both points. Of course the mossad can forge a high quality ID card with electronic security features but most people can't so it would certainly help in the fight against identity theft. I imagine if anyone had ever stolen your identity (say given your name and address to a ticket inspector after being caught ticket less on the train etc.) you might have a different point of view on a person's right to be presumed who they say they are.