Should programming/networking be a leaving cert subject?

Grayson

gubbie wrote: »

I can't see programming coming in soon into the Irish system at all. After school clubs, yes, but not as a subject for a while. Problem is most teachers don't know how to code and most programmers don't know how to teach.

Sad but true.

We had an option to pay extra money (i think it was £40) for 10 lessons in programming. There was one battered old olivetti I think. It ran dos 5. And we were taught Cobol.

I think it should be a leaving cert subject. Although there's no teachers who can teach it and no programmers who can teach, there won't be either until it's a subject on the leaving cert.
Once there's a syllabus, a school can (if they want to teach it) start looking for qualified teachers.

Grayson

lidllady wrote: »

The job opportunities in IT are completely overexagerated IMO, I have a First Class Hons degree and I've found the jobs market and pay levels absolutely terrible. I even know one guy who graduated last year with a first class honours and 87% GPA and he still couldn't find ANY job :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: As a career IT has been a complete dissapointment because it just sucks up so much of you're time learning about new technologies, it never seems to pay off and you get treated like dirt

Strange. I'm in a IT job and have no degree.

I know loads of people who are getting on fine with their degrees. I'd say an IT graduate is the one of the most most employable graduates there is (Obviously something like medicine would have a higher success rate, and probably a higher drop out rate).
And anytime I've ever gone job hunting there's always loads of jobs there.

Irish Steve

murphzor wrote: »

System.out.println("No, we need to teach more useful/important things like Irish and Religion");

NO. and NO to the above.

Networking / Programming is a very fast changing fast moving area that makes defining a valid syllabus for it almost impossible, and there are so many other variable, like operating systems, and concepts that change so quickly, the qualification would probably be out of date before it was even taken. It wouldn't suit some personalities, so for all of these reasons, no. The other aspect is that keeping the teachers up to date would be a nightmare, and teaching out of date products or concepts is counterproductive.

I've worked with computers for close on 40 years, and what I learnt in the early years is now so out of date, it's not even funny. The same applies to Languages, and operating systems. They change too often to make them a school subject.

As for the quote above, I would say that a far more important subject would be Home Systems, a short course with a course book that is kept by the student in how things in the home work, like Electrics, Gas, Water systems, Oil Heating, Phone and Broadband, Cable TV, CCTV systems, Access Control systems, basic simple stuff like "what to do if the power goes off", What is a circuit breaker, or a fuse board, How to read gas,electric and water meters, How to set up a computer on broadband, and more importantly, with graphic full colour photographs, what NOT to do, and WHY NOT, especially in relation to Gas safety, and also Electric Safety.

Even simple things like setting a time clock on heating, changing a tap washer, checking and replacing a fuse in a plug, There's a whole list of basic jobs that all of the people coming out of second level should be aware of and understand. That might help reduce the number of serious accidents with particularly Gas and Electricity, and also make it a lot harder for the cowboys that are unfortunately still out there to rip people off.

I'm not suggesting that they should be taught too much, but enough to know the basics, and more importantly enough to know when NOT to try and sort out the fault or problem, but to call in the right professional to sort it.

philologos

Karsini wrote: »

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

I loved coding as a teenager. I started getting into programming properly as a result of my own curiosity.

To have done this as an academic subject, and to have actually got some form of appreciation for it would have done a world of good and if taught well would have progressed my understanding.

I think it's daft to say that because a few people don't want to do it that it shouldn't be a subject at all.

What about those of us who did want to do it but never got the chance?

Irish Steve: C# and .NET have been around for 10 years, Java has been around since 1995, C++ since the 1980's, C since the early 70's. It doesn't really change all that often. The same is true about TCP / IP, routing and other things.

JJJJNR

No should not be a subject, but iP subnetting etc could be taught as part of the maths curriculum.

philologos

JJJJNR wrote: »

No should not be a subject, but iP subnetting etc could be taught as part of the maths curriculum.

I'm really curious about this, why not?

Grayson

Irish Steve wrote: »

NO. and NO to the above.

Networking / Programming is a very fast changing fast moving area that makes defining a valid syllabus for it almost impossible, and there are so many other variable, like operating systems, and concepts that change so quickly, the qualification would probably be out of date before it was even taken. It wouldn't suit some personalities, so for all of these reasons, no. The other aspect is that keeping the teachers up to date would be a nightmare, and teaching out of date products or concepts is counterproductive.

see, I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be compulsary. It'd be like physics or chemistry. So only people who had an aptitude would do it.

As for it being out of date, i doubt it. You'd be teaching to a level equivalent to the end of a first year course with some other bits and bobs thrown in. You'd need to update the course every 5, maybe 10 years. 5 years ago first years were studying java in just about every college course, and in 5 years they probably will again.

If they change it substantially after 10 years, they can plan ahead and get the teachers to recertify. The same as they do in the IT industry or anything else like nursing where stuff changes.

It's not a qualification. It's like doing physics for the leaving. How many went on to become physicists based on the leaving cert? Leaving cert anything isn't a qualification. They all go on to college where they take physics. Or they dump it and never use it again. The same with programming.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a basic course in stuff like how to use a search engine. How to avoid spam emails and protect your computer etc... But that would be more of they type of thing that should be wedged into a home economics course. And it's the kind of thing that would go out of date far more than the programming course.

JJJJNR

More I think about it, I think there should be taught subject that covers computing as subject, similar to woodwork, its a lot more practical and would be a real life skill much like a trade, should be an option from 1st year.

Peregrine

Karsini wrote: »

I don't see why really. Not everyone would be interested in this as a career path and that's mainly what it would be. Especially writing software - you need the right sort of head for it, it's not something that just anyone could do.

You know that the only compulsory subjects are Irish, Maths English + foreign language right? If programming was brought it as an option, like Biology or Physics thousands of people who is interested in computers and would do it, myself included. Sure if they got 5,500 students to study Higher Level Agricultural Science in 2012, I don't see why programming wouldn't prosper.

WoollyRedHat

orestes wrote: »

What, like foundation level facebook or something? Cos I know a few people who would fail that one.

Like, totes.

WoollyRedHat

I think wildnerness training is neccesary.. because you never know when you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and need to build a hut.

It would be great fun too!

Mysteriouschic

I don't think they should do programming/networking I do think they should do a computer class . They do ICT (Information communications technology) in England in secondary school, primary schools have computer classes too.

ICT secondary
http://www.ncdc.gov.rw/ICT%20Curriculum%20for%20Upper%20Secondary.pdf

Grayson

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

I think wildnerness training is neccesary.. because you never know when you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and need to build a hut.

It would be great fun too!

First Aid too. Every kid should know mouth to mouth before they leave school.

*waits for the puns to start*

JJJJNR

Another subject should be finance and the effects of markets, risk etc.

Dave!

Irish Steve wrote: »

NO. and NO to the above.

Networking / Programming is a very fast changing fast moving area that makes defining a valid syllabus for it almost impossible, and there are so many other variable, like operating systems, and concepts that change so quickly, the qualification would probably be out of date before it was even taken. It wouldn't suit some personalities, so for all of these reasons, no. The other aspect is that keeping the teachers up to date would be a nightmare, and teaching out of date products or concepts is counterproductive.

I've worked with computers for close on 40 years, and what I learnt in the early years is now so out of date, it's not even funny. The same applies to Languages, and operating systems. They change too often to make them a school subject.

As for the quote above, I would say that a far more important subject would be Home Systems, a short course with a course book that is kept by the student in how things in the home work, like Electrics, Gas, Water systems, Oil Heating, Phone and Broadband, Cable TV, CCTV systems, Access Control systems, basic simple stuff like "what to do if the power goes off", What is a circuit breaker, or a fuse board, How to read gas,electric and water meters, How to set up a computer on broadband, and more importantly, with graphic full colour photographs, what NOT to do, and WHY NOT, especially in relation to Gas safety, and also Electric Safety.

Even simple things like setting a time clock on heating, changing a tap washer, checking and replacing a fuse in a plug, There's a whole list of basic jobs that all of the people coming out of second level should be aware of and understand. That might help reduce the number of serious accidents with particularly Gas and Electricity, and also make it a lot harder for the cowboys that are unfortunately still out there to rip people off.

I'm not suggesting that they should be taught too much, but enough to know the basics, and more importantly enough to know when NOT to try and sort out the fault or problem, but to call in the right professional to sort it.

I can't see C becoming obsolete any time soon. Even if the specific language that they were taught went out of date, there are plenty of concepts that underpin most/all languages, so it would be helpful to have been exposed to them prior to taking it up in university. And even if none of it ended up being useful from a programming perspective, the students will have gotten good experience of problem solving and things of that nature, so it can hardly be said to have been time wasted.

Dave!

Grayson wrote: »

First Aid too. Every kid should know mouth to mouth before they leave school.

*waits for the puns to start*

Dirty bástard

philologos

Could some of the posters who say that Programming / Networking / Computer Science shouldn't be taught at secondary school level please suggest why this shouldn't be the case?

As for the UK scenario Michael Gove and the Department of Education have been in discussions with Google and other firms as to what curriculum they could put together for a Computer Science class.

WoollyRedHat

Grayson wrote: »

First Aid too. Every kid should know mouth to mouth before they leave school.

*waits for the puns to start*

In all seriousness.. it's a disgrace that it's not. What the **** is Transition year for, pardon my french.

Gongoozler

JJJJNR wrote: »

Another subject should be finance and the effects of markets, risk etc.

Yeah and they could call it economics.

Monsieur Folie

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

In all seriousness.. it's a disgrace that it's not. What the **** is Transition year for, pardon my french.

We did first aid modules in TY back when I did it..

Ilyana 2.0

When I was in school (left in 2010), we were taught the basics of computers; Excel and whatnot. I think all students should be taught things like email and how to connect to the internet. Pretty much the kind of thing parents and grandparents ask their kids to help them with.

I know very little about programming, but some form of it could be very popular as an optional LC subject. It'll give students a taste of it if they're considering going into IT after the LC.

Don't make it compulsory though; it's not for everyone. An arts-minded student (for example) probably won't have much need for it, or any interest in it.

As an aside, Religious Education for LC is very valuable; you learn about far more than Christianity. Ignorance breeds prejudice, and all that. But again, it shouldn't be forced on students.

stateofflux

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

In all seriousness.. it's a disgrace that it's not. What the **** is Transition year for, pardon my french.

i was'nt allowed to do it cos i was 'bad' ... i missed canoeing, loads of half days, personal 'development' lectures & trips to the aran islands

Grayson

Ilyana 2.0 wrote: »

When I was in school (left in 2010), we were taught the basics of computers; Excel and whatnot. I think all students should be taught things like email and how to connect to the internet. Pretty much the kind of thing parents and grandparents ask their kids to help them with.

I know very little about programming, but some form of it could be very popular as an optional LC subject. It'll give students a taste of it if they're considering going into IT after the LC.

Don't make it compulsory though; it's not for everyone. An arts-minded student (for example) probably won't have much need for it, or any interest in it.

As an aside, Religious Education for LC is very valuable; you learn about far more than Christianity. Ignorance breeds prejudice, and all that. But again, it shouldn't be forced on students.

I know someone who used to train Transition year students in the ECDL. If listening to that old fecker drone on about access macro's wasn't enough to make you never touch a computer ever again, i don't know what is.

But yeah, i completly forgot about transition year. that's the perfect time to teach em typing and word and crap like that. they're skills that everyone needs nowadays. I have no idea how I managed to get this far typing with two fingers.

cautiouscarguy

You know Ive got the funniest feeling that a lot of replies in here are by people who dont work in IT.

Id have a few issues with introducing programming.

1) "Thats where all the work is". Yeh for now maybe. Im not sure how national curriculums are designed and implemented. But Id bet it would take years to fully implement this (getting all the schools setup with computers especially those country/small town ones, getting the tutors trained, a curriculum put together etc). And it would take years to get our first bunch of IT trained kids out of school and into the workforce. Supposing our first batch are coming out in 20 years from now. Will this huge shortage of programmers in the workforce still be there? Or will we be sitting here saying "why do we teach kids programing, would we not be better off teaching xyz"

2) It helps with logic skills? Yeh so does maths. It would be much easier and cheaper (and more beneficial in the long run) to just double up maths in the curriculum. However if you really wanted to teach logic skills, why not just teach logic skills?

3) Programming definitely isnt for everybody. Obviously you can say this about any subject. But I think programming really will only to appeal to a tiny minority. People will argue about religion and Irish saying they are worthless. In my opinion Religion is hugely important. Like it or not, there are wars all across the world (some ongoing) because of religion. I think that alone makes religion a valid subject. Its bad enough as it is when primary school kids cant even tell you the difference if any between an Islamic and a Muslim even though they constantly hear about them on the news.

4) There are so many other things that are hugely lacking from our schools that would be much more beneficial. Im sure everyone will have their own opinon here, but imo I would say some philosophy (thats one way to get them thinking), a medical class (Irish society is a disaster when it comes to medical issues, esp. mental health. We need to get more educated on this) and without a doubt some decent creativity classes. Again, lets go back to our programming scenario. All these people making millions of euros on apps and various other bits of software- do you know how many top class programmers are out there and arent millionaires? Exactly.

You see, the coding bit is the easy part, the hard part is trying to think up something that is unique and hasnt been done before. Or at the very least, find something that has been done, take that, put a unqiue spin on it and then resell it.

Anyway. Thats just some thoughts. From an IT person.

Grayson

@cautiouscarguy. It might be a niche subject, but in pretty much every college the people doing IT courses will out number the people doing physics, maths and chemistry. But all three are taught in school.

It doesn't have to be something that everyone does. But I think based on college enrolement it would be popular enough to justify it.

Now there is the matter of teaching it. Not just constructing a course, but actually getting the resources to teach it. Besides the computers, you also need some where to put them.

Thing is, that'd come in time. i've actually helped some rural secondary schools set up computer labs. But all they're used for is teaching word etc. I think a lot of schools would have the resources, and the rest would get them over time.

The government should at the very least create a curriculum.

And for what it matters, I'm currently studying Maths & Philosophy. I think that they are great subjects and students would have a lot to gain from studying them (I'm currently dossing whilst doing a group theory assignment). But I also work in IT. And I think comp sci should be a leaving cert science like physics, or chemistry or biology.

philologos

cautiouscarguy: I'm a software developer.

1) It doesn't matter whether that's where all the work is. People need to take the prospect seriously, computers are deeply engrained into every area of our lives and are increasingly important, knowing about how they function will be a valuable skill irrespective of whether or not people actually end up taking programming roles.

2) Maths and software engineering can go hand in hand. In fact in terms of working out algorithms both are useful. I still think walking through the logic of how a system processes things is incredibly useful.

3) I think it would appeal to more than you think, and I think it would make people more aware that computer science is a real option. I'm not advocating getting rid of religion class. I think that's important, but I also think that technology is hugely important and not recognised sufficiently in Ireland's education system.

4) I disagree strongly for the afforementioned reasons.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Logical_Bear

cautiouscarguy wrote: »

You see, the coding bit is the easy part, the hard part is trying to think up something that is unique and hasnt been done before. Or at the very least, find something that has been done, take that, put a unqiue spin on it and then resell it.

Thats rubbish and only really appliciable to gaming and the frenzy surrounding smart phone apps at the moment.

EDIT:anyways I think I.T definitly should an optional leaving cert option

OctavarIan

Look at how mobile and wirelessly connected electronic devices have gotten in the past 10 years. Look at how quickly entire chains of brick & mortar shops are being made irrelevant. Look at how 'simple' mobile apps can disrupt entire industries. Hell, look at the entire new industries that have sprung up overnight. It's a whole new ball game.

You say we don't know what the industry will need 20 years from now. I say it's quite obvious that it will still be people who can program. (Different languages of course)

As far as I'm concerned it should be an optional subject on the curriculum asap, and not just for Leaving Cert.

[edit] Haven't seen it posted here but this subject is getting HUGE traction in the USA: http://www.code.org/

philologos

There's also a lot of after school code clubs being set up in schools here in the UK. Many in my firm also volunteer in a nearby school to encourage kids to be interested in software development.

batistuta9

Should they teach programming or networking on it's own - No, they're a bit too specific.

They should however introduce computing to secondary level schools, which could touch on the topics above, OS's, databases, etc.

it'd give students an idea if they computing or aspects of it - for example you could like programming but hate networking or vice versa - and might help the dropout rates in college for computing, which i think are the highest of any courses

sock puppet

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

I don't think they should do programming/networking I do think they should do a computer class . They do ICT (Information communications technology) in England in secondary school, primary schools have computer classes too.

ICT secondary
http://www.ncdc.gov.rw/ICT%20Curriculum%20for%20Upper%20Secondary.pdf

Nah. The course should be a proper computer science course or nothing imo. One of the good things about the Leaving Cert is that most students take serious academic subjects. In the UK many subjects, ICT included, are viewed as something of a joke by many.

Kinski

KyussBishop wrote: »

Anyone who starts learning to program only after they are 18+, is going to be useless at programming for quite some time (particularly when trying to start off getting a job)

I doubt that very much. I know some fine programmers who got very good very quickly in their early 20s.

Capt'n Midnight

Dave! wrote: »

Yes I think so. Not necessarily compulsory, but certainly an option.

There was a computing option in maths as far back as the early 80's


real problem is who is going to be capable of teaching it competently and who will pay for that ?

Dave!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There was a computing option in maths as far back as the early 80's

In which schools? Not mine, anyway

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

real problem is who is going to be capable of teaching it competently and who will pay for that ?

Dunno, has it been explored at all? It's in the industry's interest to have computer literate graduates, so you might be able to get developers loaned out to schools for 1 or 2 classes a week.

Last year I was a mentor for CoderDojo, which was organised by FAS I think, and the 'resources' (i.e. mentors) were provided by the company I worked for. Something like that could be considered. I was actually thinking of trying to organise one in my own former secondary school.


It might not be feasible to have several classes per week, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing that can be done. There was an option of Japanese in my school AFAIK, where did they get the resources for that?!

Capt'n Midnight

Dave! wrote: »

In which schools? Not mine, anyway

My school only had French as the foreign language

Dunno, has it been explored at all? It's in the industry's interest to have computer literate graduates,

I'll try rephrasing it, a lot of the industry doesn't want people trained the wrong way with the wrong mindset. In many cases it's better to not have people trained to code than have them trained to do things the wrong way in the wrong stuff

Last year I was a mentor for CoderDojo,

that has nothing to do with the Leaving Cert and secondary school teachers.

It's more something that happens in spite of rather than because of ...


What are the chances of the dept of Education going for ipad with €'s for every book rather than an Android tablet with open source materials / more choice in paid for material ?

If you are using a table as an e-reader then the choice of books is more important than the platform as they are all pretty capable these days. And in choice of books / platform you don't want lock in, the bad days of having to buy the 6th edition of a particular Biology book from Follens or the Educational Company.


Now back to the point. Have they announced who is going to support the e-readers / IT in the schools ? Is there any evidence of joined-up-thinking in this regard. e-readers are simple and relatively off the shelf compared to setting up a relevant software course , unless you have skilled people.