Landlord not renewing lease - notice period- deposit

pa2606

Hello

Thank you in advance for helping me understand how I stand in relation to the below:

My rental agreement will expire in the middle of this month. I have received an email from my landlord earlier this week informing us that he has no intention of renewing as he is looking to sell the house. He is giving us one month notice to vacate the property.

I have started looking around for a different house/apartment in the area.
It doesn't seem that easy to find any sort of suitable accommodation which I can afford.(and I am not picky).
I have a daughter who is in primary school so I am bound to remain in the area for school, work and childcare arrangements.

The landlord is giving us a set date to vacate the property. My problem is that I need to seriously start looking for another place to move to, but most of the places are available immediately and require payment of the deposit and first month rent right on the spot.

I cannot afford paying rent in two places at the same time, this wasn't a planned expense and I have no money set aside.
Am I required by law to stick with the date he is giving me? If I find something suitable can I move out of the place and not been liable to pay the rent up to the last week of the month?

Thank you.

djimi

First off, you are entitled to 6 weeks (42 days) notice once the tenancy is between 1 and 2 years. As the landlord seems keen to terminate the lease it may be possible to negotiate a shorter notice period if it suits you, but if it does not suit you then the landlord has no legal right to demand that you are out of the property after a month.

You need to sit down and discuss this matter with the landlord. Explain the situation that you now find yourself in and see what arrangement you can come to. You may have to agree to a small crossover of rent between two properties (say you find yourself two weeks into a month in your current property when you move then you will have to fund the two weeks plus the month up front for the new property), but this is something that you can negotiate with your current landlord. If they are keen to get you out of the property then Im sure they will be willing to deal to ensure that it happens swiftly and smoothly.

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

First off, you are entitled to 6 weeks (42 days) notice once the tenancy is between 1 and 2 years. As the landlord seems keen to terminate the lease it may be possible to negotiate a shorter notice period if it suits you, but if it does not suit you then the landlord has no legal right to demand that you are out of the property after a month.

You need to sit down and discuss this matter with the landlord. Explain the situation that you now find yourself in and see what arrangement you can come to. You may have to agree to a small crossover of rent between two properties (say you find yourself two weeks into a month in your current property when you move then you will have to fund the two weeks plus the month up front for the new property), but this is something that you can negotiate with your current landlord. If they are keen to get you out of the property then Im sure they will be willing to deal to ensure that it happens swiftly and smoothly.

if you finish up a years lease then how do you have 42 days?
the o has not claimed a part 4

Where a tenancy that was entered into for a specific period (i.e. a fixed term
tenancy) comes to the end of that period, a notice of termination does not
have to be issued. If that period was 6 months or more and the tenant intends
to continue in occupation, he/she must inform the landlord of that intention
between one and three months before the expiry date

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termnating_Tenancy.pdf

if you were palnning to stay you had to tell him before 1 month from the end and in fact the landlord is being fair

also it should be against the charter to give what amounts to legal advice
links to relevant documents should be needed

sorry op

djimi

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

Edit: if you want a link Trigger this is taken from Citizens Information:

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

did you read my post

Where a tenancy that was entered into for a specific period (i.e. a fixed term
tenancy) comes to the end of that period, a notice of termination does not
have to be issued. If that period was 6 months or more and the tenant intends
to continue in occupation, he/she must inform the landlord of that intention
between one and three months before the expiry date

i didnt make that up
the fixed term is the notice
its written in the lease
you have to claim the right to a different end date 1 month before the end of the fixed term

this is from the ptrb themselves
look at the link

djimi

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

You dont claim a part 4; you aquire it automatically after 6 months. You need to inform the landlord of your intention to stay on as you may be liable for any costs that they have incurred readvertising etc, but not informing them does not mean that you do not aquire part 4 rights.

Edit: if you want a link Trigger this is taken from Citizens Information:



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

its Tigger
not trigger

from your link that links to the harder to understand 2004 act

Residential Tenancies Act 2004. [2004.]
Pt.9
Proposed
overholding under a
fixed term tenancy.
Equal Status Act
2000 not prejudiced.
Amendment of
Housing
(Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act
1997.
116
195.—(1) In this section ‘‘relevant dwelling’’ means a dwelling, the
subject of a tenancy that is for a fixed period of at least 6 months.
(2) The tenant of a relevant dwelling, if he or she intends to
remain (on whatever basis, if any, that is open to him or her to do
so) in occupation of the dwelling after the expiry of the period of
the tenancy concerned, shall notify the landlord of that intention.
(3) That notification shall not be made to the landlord—
(a) any later than 1 month before, nor
(b) any sooner than 3 months before,
the expiry of the period of that tenancy.

this is the text of the law

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

read the law as i've quoted
100 people saying something that is wrong is still wrong

ive been a tennant for over 20 years
the 2004 act is brilliant for tennants but it still needs to be understood

pre the 2004 act all sorts of bad things were happening but in case anyone is looking for the answer i dont think its shouild be left wrong

why dont you delet yopur posts and ill delet mine and you can link to the correct 2004 act and the ptrb pdf that explains it

Tigger

djimi wrote: »

Its my understanding that no notice of termination is required by a tenant who wishes to vacate after a fixed term lease has expired, but this does not apply to a landlord as the tenant has automatically aquired part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months, which take effect the moment the fixed term lease has expired. Ive read quite a few people who agree the same.

the citizens info state

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

but thats is more of a: it will take them 35 days to turf you out thing

and you could have to pay 2 months rent extraa

it should be left here that the op would have been better off claiming 35 days past the end of tennency date and then lookinbg for a new home

djimi

You are quoting the wrong part of the RTA 2004. The relevant point is that after 6 months of a tenancy the tenant automatically aquires part 4 tenancy rights (unless termination notice has been issued prior to this). Link: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0028.html The landlord cannot refuse these rights. The OP did not specify whether or not they have been in the tenancy for more than 6 months, but if we are to take it that they have been then they have already aquired part 4 tenancy rights, which take effect immediately at the end of the fixed term lease.

And I am not giving legal advise; I am expressing my opinion based on my understanding of the tenancy laws. If the OP wants legal advise then they should consult with a legal professional on the matter.

And dont patronize me by telling me to delete my posts again.

Zamboni

pa2606 wrote: »

Hello

Thank you in advance for helping me understand how I stand in relation to the below:

My rental agreement will expire in the middle of this month. I have received an email from my landlord earlier this week informing us that he has no intention of renewing as he is looking to sell the house. He is giving us one month notice to vacate the property.

I have started looking around for a different house/apartment in the area.
It doesn't seem that easy to find any sort of suitable accommodation which I can afford.(and I am not picky).
I have a daughter who is in primary school so I am bound to remain in the area for school, work and childcare arrangements.

The landlord is giving us a set date to vacate the property. My problem is that I need to seriously start looking for another place to move to, but most of the places are available immediately and require payment of the deposit and first month rent right on the spot.

I cannot afford paying rent in two places at the same time, this wasn't a planned expense and I have no money set aside.
Am I required by law to stick with the date he is giving me? If I find something suitable can I move out of the place and not been liable to pay the rent up to the last week of the month?

Thank you.

This was not an unexpected event.
Any tenant approaching the end of their lease should always prepare financially for the possibility of non-renewal i.e. have adequate capital to move and to monitor the market and see what other accommodation is available.
Leaving the lecture that you don't to hear aside, you are looking for rental accommodation in the most sought after area in the country.
If you think you may be not be able to afford accommodation in the time-frame and need assistance you should contact your local DSP office.

odds_on

Tigger wrote: »

if you finish up a years lease then how do you have 42 days?
the o has not claimed a part 4



http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termnating_Tenancy.pdf

if you were palnning to stay you had to tell him before 1 month from the end and in fact the landlord is being fair

also it should be against the charter to give what amounts to legal advice
links to relevant documents should be needed

sorry op

After 6 months in occupancy, Part 4 rights are acquired by the tenant. This gives the right to the tenant to remain in the property for a total of 4 years (i.e. for a further 3.5 years) without signing a new lease. The Part 4 rights acquired, commence at the time of 6 months in occupancy and run along side a fixed term agreement for the second 6 months of the fixed term.

The tenant should advise the landlord between 3 months and 1 month prior to the end of the fixed term if the tenant wishes to remain in the property under his Part 4 rights. However, if the tenant fails to advise the landlord of his wish to remain, it does not negate the tenant's rights to remain - the tenant may be liable for any reasonable expenses incurred by the landlord.

Under Part 4 tenancy laws, a landlord may regain possession of his property using any of six grounds as set out in the RTA 2004, of which one is if the landlord intends to sell the property within the next 3 months.

Therefore, we have a tenant who wishes to remain and a landlord who wants possession of his property. The fact that the tenant may remain in the property at the end of the fixed term would imply that a Notice of Termination must therefore be issued by the landlord to regain possession.

A NoT must be in writing, stating the reason for termination, various other details and must be signed by the landlord. It would be unlikely that an email would be "signed" by a person. Thus the Notice would be invalid.

The notice period in the NoT must be in accordance to the RTA 2004 - 35 days if the tenant has been in occupancy for more than 6 months but less that 1 year.

However, the problem comes as to whether a landlord may issue a NoT during a fixed term tenancy or must he wait until the fixed term has expired before a valid notice may be issued.

My belief is that a valid NoT may be issued during the Fixed term as part of Part 4 rights acquired by the landlord and tenants; thus a landlord may regain possession (required notice period having been given) immediately the fixed term has expired.

There are others who say that the NOT may only be issued once the Fixed term has expired. Thus, a landlord must wait a further 42 days (because at this stage the tenant will have been in occupancy for more than 1 year but less than 2 years) before he can regain possession.

Lastly, if a landlord uses for the grounds of eviction that he intends to sell the property, and within 3 months has rented the property to new tenants, he is in breach of his Notice of Termination details and the ex tenant is open to make a claim against the landlord for damages and illegal eviction.

MMAGirl

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

This would be true were it not for the existence of part 4 tenancy rights. Once a tenant is in a property for 6 months (be it on a fixed term lease or not) they are entitled to remain in the property for 4 further years, unless the landlord triggers one of the six termination clauses as set out in the part 4 tenancy (none of which allow a landlord to terminate a tenancy simply because the lease has expired).

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think people understand what a lease is.
A
Its pretty obvious that a lease for one year means 1 year.
Thats your end date right there. If you or the landlord wants to extend or terminate early or carry on under another lease or a part 4 then you can agree to.

But notice is taken as given on the day you signed the lease. If the landlord doesnt wish you to stay you must be gone by the last day in your lease.

Wow. I had to register to boards just to comment on this crazy advice. A tenant has part 4 rights as soon as they are in situ more than 6 months, lease or no lease. At the end of the lease term it is no further tenancy periods have to be negotiated. The tenant has the right to remain but is supposed to inform the landlord. Failure to do so could result in the landlord suing the tenant for costs associated with advertising. However, the tenant can just leave at the end of the period with no notice required.

MMAgirl could you refrain from posting legal advice in future, it would benefit us all.

MMAGirl

TheOldHand wrote: »

Wow. I had to register to boards just to comment on this crazy advice. A tenant has part 4 rights as soon as they are in situ more than 6 months, lease or no lease. At the end of the lease term it is no further tenancy periods have to be negotiated. The tenant has the right to remain but is supposed to inform the landlord. Failure to do so could result in the landlord suing the tenant for costs associated with advertising. However, the tenant can just leave at the end of the period with no notice required.

MMAgirl could you refrain from posting legal advice in future, it would benefit us all.

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

You "get" a part 4 after 6 months regardless. A landlord cannot refuse your part 4 rights; you already have them and they just take effect the moment a fixed term lease expires.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

Wrong again.
You have a part 4 tenancy after 6 months, nothing to do with the terms of the lease. Have a read of this if you are able.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/index.html
The landlord has not right to end a part 4 tenancy on a whim.

This is from the PRTB themselves.

Where a tenancy has lasted more than 6 months and less than 4 years, the
landlord must state in the termination notice the reason the tenancy is being
terminated and the termination will not be valid unless that reason relates to
one of the following:
- the tenant has failed to comply with the obligations of the tenancy
- the landlord intends to sell the dwelling within the next 3 months
- the dwelling is no longer suited to the needs of the occupying household
- the landlord requires the dwelling for own or family member occupation
- vacant possession is required for substantial refurbishment of the dwelling
- the landlord intends to change the use of the dwelling.

MMA girl can you show me any references to back up your claims?

MMAGirl

djimi wrote: »

You "get" a part 4 after 6 months regardless. A landlord cannot refuse your part 4 rights; you already have them and they just take effect the moment a fixed term lease expires.

Lord help us :rolleyes:

Why dont you read the entire text you linked to. You might find actually reading it helps. In fact its been posted on message boards thousands of times already. And try to find out what a Lease is, will you.

Its like trying to tell someone to just look at the sky to see what colour it is, and they just wont look, but keep saying its green, because they dreamt it.

But carry on anyway.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Lord help us :rolleyes:

Its like trying to tell someone to just look at the sky to see what colour it is, and they just wont look, but keep saying its green, because they dreamt it.

Carry on.

Tell me about it. I've just shown you to be completely wrong with references from the PRTB and actual legislation.

MMAGirl

TheOldHand wrote: »

Tell me about it. I've just shown you to be completely wrong with references from the PRTB and actual legislation.

You havent shown anything.
Im not going to feed the troll. Read the damned link YOU posted. Its all there for you to help yourself.

odds_on

MMAGirl wrote: »

Im not giving advice. Im stating a fact. The clue is in the name. "Fixed Term"
You get a part 4 after the lease has expired - if the landlord lets you stay beyond the time specified in the lease. If they dont, you honour the terms of the lease you signed.

As both myself djimi have indicated, once a tenant has been in occupancy for six months, they automatically acquire certain rights (known as Part 4 rights). These rights include the right to remain in the property for a total of 4 years without signing another lease.

At the end of a fixed term lease, the tenant may vacate without giving notice and the landlord is free to find a new tenant for a new tenancy.

However, at the end of a fixed term lease, a tenant has the absolute right to remain in occupancy. He should advise the landlord at least 1 month prior to the end of the fixed term of his wish to remain.

However, if the tenant fails to advise (note: advise, not "ask") the landlord, it does not take away from the tenant's rights to remain in the property but the tenant may be liable for a landlord's expenses (which may include advertising costs, estate agents fees etc).

Fixed term agreements only take effect when they give a tenant more security of tenure over and above those provided in the RTA 2004.

I sincerely hope that you are not a landlord. If you are, you need to brush up on both landlord and tenant's rights and obligations.

djimi

MMAGirl wrote: »

You havent shown anything.
Im not going to feed the troll. Read the damned link YOU posted. Its all there for you to help yourself.

How about you post the part of the RTA that you think backs up your claim?

D3PO

lads and lassies can you stop with the back and forth. Its COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT here.

The OP has asked can they leave earlier. The answer is no.

Part 4 or no part 4 that is still the answer.

MMAGirl

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

djimi

Okay; this has already been linked, but Ill link it again.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

The relevant part:

Part 4 tenancies
Under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, if you have been renting for at least 6 months and haven't been given a written notice of termination, you automatically acquire security of tenure in 4-year cycles. Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a 'Part 4 tenancy' or a 'further Part 4 tenancy'. After 4 years of your tenancy has passed, a new tenancy starts. The same 4-year cycle can begin again, leading to a further Part 4 tenancy.

When you have acquired a Part 4 tenancy your landlord can terminate your tenancy only in certain circumstances. Read more about if your landlord wants you to leave here. If you want to leave during your Part 4 tenancy and you do not have a fixed-term agreement, you do not have to give a reason but you must give the correct period of notice in writing as required under the Act. (See 'Rules' below).

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease (for example of 1 year) and you wish to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property between 3 months and 1 month before the expiry of your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4 but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss she/he has incurred because you did not notify him/her of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy during a periodic tenancy
If you are in a periodic tenancy (renting without a lease or a contract) you also have automatic security of tenure under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 but you don’t have to notify your landlord of your intention to remain in the property for up to 4 years.

Ive bolded the relevant points in red.

TheOldHand

MMAGirl wrote: »

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

How convenient. I hope you get to try that one out at PRTB hearing soon.

D3PO, I beleve it is the case that if a landlord does not serve a valid notice that the tenant can leave without penalty. I'm trying to find some supporting material for this but I'm not sure if in this case the correct notice has been served.

Giblet

MMAGirl wrote: »

Believe me or dont believe me, it makes no difference to my life.
You not believing that a fixed term lease expires after a fixed term and becomes a part 4 only if the landlord decides that the tenant can stay after their end date, specified in the lease on day one, does not change the laws of the land.
I know the law and some people in here are too lazy to even read the links that they post themselves.
So I'm not going to post the text, i'm actually going to require you to read your own links

So keep your head in the sand. Next you'll be saying that praying works if you need anything.

*Douche Chill*

odds_on

TheOldHand wrote: »

How convenient. I hope you get to try that one out at PRTB hearing soon.

D3PO, I beleve it is the case that if a landlord does not serve a valid notice that the tenant can leave without penalty. I'm trying to find some supporting material for this but I'm not sure if in this case the correct notice has been served.

If the Notice of Termination issued by a landlord is not valid, the tenant does not have to leave.

However, if a tenant leaves without (written) objection he will usually be deemed to have accepted the landlord's request and if a claim against the landlord for illegal eviction were made at a later date, the tenant would be unlikely to awarded damages unless there were other provable circumstances such as harassment etc.

MMAGirl

Oh you are so close.
Now look up what a lease means in law. Particularly a fixed term lease.

Teach a man to fish.

djimi

Im through debating this. Its written in front of you in black and white (and red); if you disagree with it then more power to you.