Player Of The Year 2012/2013

Giggsy11

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Shows a willingness from some of your supporters to admit how good Suarez is or maybe better put for the sake of the thread, was this season. Not saying yourself or others are playing down Suarez but there is a large element of that from what I've seen IRL anyway for sure.

And yes, there is probably some of that towards RVP from our support as well though I've honestly not seen it, ie: don't rate or wouldn't vote for him due to who he plays for or his antics. Some people can't separate the footballer from that of the character and some of his antics. Suarez has himself to blame too somewhat of course.

I don't think anyone would have said Suarez didn't deserve it had he won it, same with RVP. Like I said there was nothing between 3 players and for some reasons Liverpool fans keep on saying Suarez was much better than Bale when if you check the performance and importance to their teams there is hardly anything.

SlickRic

Suarez voted for Bale.

Red Crow

SlickRic wrote: »

do you think that's likely?

No but then again I didn't think PL footballers would of been stupid enough to vote Hazard into the side and nominate him for PoTY.

Giggsy11

Blatter wrote: »

Actually think there's a bit of bias against Bale on this forum.

It's a cool factor to underrate him just like how it's cool to overrate foreign players.

Here Precious2

Eli Manning wrote: »

Bale will probably want to get out of Spurs to protect his stock ASAP if Spurs don't make the CL. Also if he wants to win something in his career he'll probably look to move sooner rather than later becuase I can't see Spurs being much of a threat in the CL or EPL in the next 3/4 years.

Not about Bale. It's when Danny Levy will leave him go. Bale has just signed a long term deal. He'll be asked to give spurs another year.

Same thing happened to Modric.

MD1990

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have said Suarez didn't deserve it had he won it, same with RVP. Like I said there was nothing between 3 players and for some reasons Liverpool fans keep on saying Suarez was much better than Bale when if you check the performance and importance to their teams there is hardly anything.

Bale wasn't that good before Christmas & wasn't even a contender back then
he was brillant since his hatrick vs Villa
Suarez was more consistent throughout the season than RVP & Bale
& is more involved in games than those two players

Giggsy11

MD1990 wrote: »

Bale wasn't that good before Christmas & wasn't even a contender back then
he was brillant since his hatrick vs Villa
Suarez was more consistent throughout the season than RVP & Bale
& is more involved in games than those two players

Not scoring goals doesn't mean was not playing good.

And check out the stats Homerjay posted and you can see he has scored almost in same number of games.

kippy

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Some stats for you all to chew on for PL goals this season...very very revealing.

apologies if there are any errors in here, ill change them if there are but this table should be 90+% accurate.

---

RVP---Bale---Suarez
Goals Against the top 8 teams in the league

---

9

---

6

---

6
number of teams scored against

---

15

---

14

---

12
number of games scored in

---

20

---

15

---

16
Goals against the bottom 6

---

8

---

7

---

11
number of games where they scored the winning goal

---

7

---

5

---

1
points contribution

---

27

---

18

---

11

Any stats on Michu?
(out of interest)

MD1990

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Not scoring goals doesn't mean was not playing good.

And check out the stats Homerjay posted and you can see he has scored almost in same number of games.

ppl need to stop with stats obsession
im talking about general play
yes Bale was good at the start of the season but not outstanding & not a POTY contender
Suarez has been outstanding for nearly all of it imo

Giggsy11

MD1990 wrote: »

ppl need to stop with stats obsession
im talking about general play
yes Bale was good at the start of the season but not outstanding & not a POTY contender
Suarez has been outstanding for nearly all of it imo

What? We have to consider how many dribbles he has completed and all that now?

Bale has carried Spurs and is the single reason why Spurs are in contention for 3 rd place. He deserves the award and going by people's reaction it's as if it was Parkeresque or giggsesque award.

Also the stats Homer posted holds much more weight that just loose comments like Bale was not consistent and Suarez was as it shows how many games they have scored and contributed.

homerjay2005

MD1990 wrote: »

ppl need to stop with stats obsession

stats when dissected properly and used in the correct manner as i have outlined above, tell alot.

For instance, it is clear that almost 50% of Suarezs goals this season came against the worst teams in the league. he then has another 4 goals against Norwich, who lie just outside the bottom 6.

compare that to RVP scoring in 9 of the 11 games he played against the top 8 teams in the league....small details but we are talking about deciding who should have got player of the year.

difficult to assess Bale, as he is not a striker as such, but in terms of RVP V Suarez, it is clear who has has the better season. the only game this season where Suarezs goals were the main reason Liverpool won the game, was in his hat trick against Norwich, in a 5-2 win.

missingtime

IMO it should be based on

- Number of trophies won.
- Consistency.
- Value to the team (e.g. points contribution)
- Goals and assists.
- Number of standout performances (e.g. man of the match or something like that)

Using this model, Van Persie would be the standout winner and thats fair enough.

homerjay2005

missingtime wrote: »

IMO it should be based on

- Number of trophies won.
- Consistency.
- Value to the team (e.g. points contribution)
- Goals and assists.
- Number of standout performances (e.g. man of the match or something like that)

Using this model, Van Persie would be the standout winner and thats fair enough.

indeed, looking at it now, its absolutely astonishing that RVP has not won it. most goals, most assists, biggest contribution, biggest influence on the title and team, most points won etc etc.

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

indeed, looking at it now, its absolutely astonishing that RVP has not won it. most goals, most assists, biggest contribution, biggest influence on the title and team, most points won etc etc.

it's actually quite obvious why.

the votes were done at a time when Bale was at the height of his form, and RVP was having his barren scoring spell.

that really is all there is to this.

Xavi6

homerjay2005 wrote: »

most points won

Out of curiosity, how is this statistic determined? Is it just on how many goals the player scored to get a point or three?

On face value it strikes me as a very disingenuous stat given there's other factors at play.

kippy

Thinking about this again, and I suppose we don't really want to get into a purely "statistical" way of handing out these awards.
They are hard enough for defensive players/keepers to win without getting into "points won" goals scored, scored against etc etc.
How does a defender compete with a forward on "goals scored"?

missingtime

Xavi6 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how is this statistic determined? Is it just on how many goals the player scored to get a point or three?

On face value it strikes me as a very disingenuous stat given there's other factors at play.

I guess a goal to make it 3-2 when it was 2-2 is worth more than getting a goal to make it 2-0 when it was 1-0.

Which is obviously flawed.

bullvine

Spurs player in overated shocker, this award has been a joke ever since Ginola won it in 99, ahead of Keane, Yorke, Stam etc and I don't buy that split vote crap..

Also Giggs winning in 09?? Seriously...

Xavi6

missingtime wrote: »

I guess a goal to make it 3-2 when it was 2-2 is worth more than getting a goal to make it 2-0 when it was 1-0.

Which is obviously flawed.

And that's where I'm coming from, it's a worthless stat imo if that's the thinking behind it.

homerjay2005

missingtime wrote: »

I guess a goal to make it 3-2 when it was 2-2 is worth more than getting a goal to make it 2-0 when it was 1-0.

Which is obviously flawed.

no you are wrong, a goal that comes in a one goal swing, would be counted as helping your team to win no matter when it is scored, so there is no flaw at all.

the only difference is in the winning goals column, which is one that Suarez did not influence. FFS he couldnt manage one game all season where he helped turn a 1-1 or a 0-0 into a win.

surely you see that important contributions are the ones that come when your team need you most? scoring the last goal in a 3 or 4-0 win in essence matter a bollix, its when your teams need you that counts and in those games that hang in the balance, Suarez didnt really do it for Liverpool this season in terms of winning them matches.

homerjay2005

Xavi6 wrote: »

And that's where I'm coming from, it's a worthless stat imo if that's the thinking behind it.

so you think scoring goal 5 in a 5-0 win against Wigan at home, is the same as scoring the winner in a 2-1 win away to Liverpool or City for example?

thats mindless logic.

Xavi6

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so you think scoring goal 5 in a 5-0 win against Wigan at home, is the same as scoring the winner in a 2-1 win away to Liverpool or City for example?

thats mindless logic.

No, as I already said, I think saying a player won his team three points is disingenuous and simplistic when there are other factors at play.

It contradicts the fundamental of it being a team game.

Edit: Before this develops into a pointless argument, it's fine to use it and you're not the first. I just don't take notice of it and I don't think it's using stats properly. You said yourself already that stats are good if used right, this is the opposite of that for me - using them for the sake of it.

missingtime

homerjay2005 wrote: »

no you are wrong, a goal that comes in a one goal swing, would be counted as helping your team to win no matter when it is scored, so there is no flaw at all.

the only difference is in the winning goals column, which is one that Suarez did not influence. FFS he couldnt manage one game all season where he helped turn a 1-1 or a 0-0 into a win.

surely you see that important contributions are the ones that come when your team need you most? scoring the last goal in a 3 or 4-0 win in essence matter a bollix, its when your teams need you that counts and in those games that hang in the balance, Suarez didnt really do it for Liverpool this season in terms of winning them matches.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so you think scoring goal 5 in a 5-0 win against Wigan at home, is the same as scoring the winner in a 2-1 win away to Liverpool or City for example?

thats mindless logic.

All goals help the team to win. See last years premier league for instance; Utd lost on goal difference.

homerjay2005

missingtime wrote: »

All goals help the team to win. See last years premier league for instance; Utd lost on goal difference.

and likewise, when push came to shove, Citys big players stood up and were counted - Kompany and Aguero scored the two decisive goals of the league season.

had that ball fallen to Nasri in the last minute, he may have fallen over or s*at in his pants. it fell to the right man and the rest as they say, is history. we cannot talk about what might have happened and what could have happened, had them players not scored them goals. as we can talk about, is what actually happened and facts show these lads scored vital winning goals, the same as RVP did this season.

big players score big goals.

niallo27

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and likewise, when push came to shove, Citys big players stood up and were counted - Kompany and Aguero scored the two decisive goals of the league season.

had that ball fallen to Nasri in the last minute, he may have fallen over or s*at in his pants. it fell to the right man and the rest as they say, is history. we cannot talk about what might have happened and what could have happened, had them players not scored them goals. as we can talk about, is what actually happened and facts show these lads scored vital winning goals, the same as RVP did this season.

big players score big goals.

Have a look back at the goals Suarez scored. Most of his goals have been the first of the game for liverpool. They haven't been winning goals most of the time but equalizing goals or they have put liverpool up 1 nil.

homerjay2005

niallo27 wrote: »

Have a look back at the goals Suarez scored. Most of his goals have been the first of the game for liverpool. They haven't been winning goals most of the time but equalizing goals or they have put liverpool up 1 nil.

i make it 8 games where he was liverpools first scorer, (4 times he opened the scoring) how is 8 goals out of 23 "most"? or is your definition of most, different to most?

he got equalisers against Newcastle, Chelsea, Chelsea and Sunderland in 1-1 draws i think, the other opening goals came in win over Spurs, Norwich, Wigan and QPR...if im missing a game or two, feel free to correct me, but thats pretty spot on i think.

and as i said, the only game where you could say he scored "winning" goals, was his trick against Norwich. considering Liverpool have drawn 12 games this season, you not think it is disappointing that your top scorer has not got at least one winner in those 12 games?

when somebody scores 23 goals in a season, you'd expect more impact. and when comparing RVP, Bale and Suarez...these things matter. 15 goals out of 23 against the worst 7 teams in the league tells its own story in my opinion. Liverpool would probably have still won those games without him, as they proved by beating one of those teams 6-0 on Sunday.

Homer, what's your point exactly?

Seems like you are pulling stats out to suit your argument, whatever that is.

homerjay2005

rarnes1 wrote: »

Homer, what's your point exactly?

that RVP and Bale had better seasons, its that simple really.

the stats ive "pulled" are a fair indication i think. they have a relatively similar record so its hard to distinguish. looking at their goals however, its clear that RVP for example has scored more goals against the better teams, has scored more crucial/decisive goals and Suarez by in large,scored most of his goals against the bottom teams. Suarez it could be said, when Liverpool were drawing 0-0 with the likes of Reading, West Ham, Swansea, Stoke and the other countless games they drew (8 more), was found wanting. Bale and RVP on 12 occasions turned those 0-0's or 1-1s or 2-2's into wins...something Suarez didnt do.

surely you have to accept that or do we need to keep talking about something thats blatantly straight forward and obvious?

MD1990

homerjay2005 wrote: »

that RVP and Bale had better seasons, its that simple really.

the stats ive "pulled" are a fair indication i think. they have a relatively similar record so its hard to distinguish. looking at their goals however, its clear that RVP for example has scored more goals against the better teams, has scored more crucial/decisive goals and Suarez by in large,scored most of his goals against the bottom teams. Suarez it could be said, when Liverpool were drawing 0-0 with the likes of Reading, West Ham, Swansea, Stoke and the other countless games they drew (8 more), was found wanting. Bale and RVP on 12 occasions turned those 0-0's or 1-1s or 2-2's into wins...something Suarez didnt do.

surely you have to accept that or do we need to keep talking about something thats blatantly straight forward and obvious?

Suarez is playing in a worse team than RVP & Bale
POTY is not all about goals either

Kold

5 whole pages of butthurt. Sure is a lot of hate in here for the lad.

Ryu Hayabusa

Happy that Bale won,

but it was between himself and RVP as they are in genuine top 7 world class category, Suarez is outside top 10

Hidalgo

Fail to see why people get so worked up about these awards.
If Bale had played in the first half of the season the way he did in the 2nd half he may not have got it.
He got red hot at exactly the right time and maintained that form.

Fellani had a great start up till the game V Stoke. Had he been in that type of form since Xmas there might have been talk of him as a contender.
That's the nature of it.

For me RVP was the best player. But any of the leading 3 would have been a worthy winner.

homerjay2005

homerjay2005 wrote: »

that RVP and Bale had better seasons, its that simple really.

the stats ive "pulled" are a fair indication i think. they have a relatively similar record so its hard to distinguish. looking at their goals however, its clear that RVP for example has scored more goals against the better teams, has scored more crucial/decisive goals and Suarez by in large,scored most of his goals against the bottom teams. Suarez it could be said, when Liverpool were drawing 0-0 with the likes of Reading, West Ham, Swansea, Stoke and the other countless games they drew (8 more), was found wanting. Bale and RVP on 12 occasions turned those 0-0's or 1-1s or 2-2's into wins...something Suarez didnt do.

surely you have to accept that or do we need to keep talking about something thats blatantly straight forward and obvious?

Van Persie and Suarez both were fantastic this season,not much between them.

Suarez didn't do more than 4/5 games without scoring, while van Persie went a bit longer. Note this is serious nit picking.

Btw, Suarez scored against City, Arsenal, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs. In fact the only top team he didn't score against was Utd !

RvP has better players and a better manager so gets better service and probably better coached.

As I say nit picking. Both were top class this season.

Giggsy11

rarnes1 wrote: »

Van Persie and Suarez both were fantastic this season,not much between them.

Suarez didn't do more than 4/5 games without scoring, while van Persie went a bit longer. Note this is serious nit picking.

Btw, Suarez scored against City, Arsenal, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs. In fact the only top team he didn't score against was Utd !

RvP has better players and a better manager so gets better service and probably better coached.

As I say nit picking. Both were top class this season.

Suarez went 4 games without scoring and it happened twice and he played every single min of those games.

RVP went 5 games without scoring in the league and in that he played 40 mins against Reading and 66 mins against Norwich.

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Suarez went 4 games without scoring and it happened twice and he played every single min of those games.

RVP went 5 games without scoring in the league and in that he played 40 mins against Reading and 66 mins against Norwich.

Cheers, I was including other cup games etc. Wasn't the crux of my argument anyway tbh.

SlickRic

of course RVP's goals won a load of points compared to Suarez.

his team has 30 more points than Suarez's.

smileyj1987

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

Happy that Bale won,

but it was between himself and RVP as they are in genuine top 7 world class category, Suarez is outside top 10

Is that you Jeff ?

I don't know how you could come to that conclusion . Suarez would easily rank in the top 7 . I think Bale is good but he isn't in the top 7 players in the world . Bale has speed and power while players like Van Persie and Suarez have got a brilliant first touch and alot of natural skill with the ball which are more important when you are talking about the best players in the world .
I don't hate Bale but he is over rated and in the next 2 or 3 years he could be one of the best in the world but he isn't that right now .

dfx-

Of what I've seen, I'd have voted Juan Mata. Suarez second.

homerjay2005

SlickRic wrote: »

of course RVP's goals won a load of points compared to Suarez.

his team has 30 more points than Suarez's.

RVP was a big reason United won alot of those points, he scored the winning goal in 7 games. added to that he has goals against Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea where he scored crucial goals that United also picked up points in.

there were 11 games this season (Excluded Chelsea where he scored 96th minute equaliser) where Suarez had plenty of time to get his side a winning goal and he failed to do so. RVP rose to that challenge.

niallo27

homerjay2005 wrote: »

RVP was a big reason United won alot of those points, he scored the winning goal in 7 games. added to that he has goals against Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea where he scored crucial goals that United also picked up points in.

there were 11 games this season (Excluded Chelsea where he scored 96th minute equaliser) where Suarez had plenty of time to get his side a winning goal and he failed to do so. RVP rose to that challenge.

You method would be correct if both players were playing in the exact same standard of teams, I can't see how you don't get this.

theoneeyedman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22346517


Funny for so many reasons....comedian Reg Hunter caused a stir with some colourful language and humour including use of the N word. Lots of wringing hands and red faces this morning.

homerjay2005

niallo27 wrote: »

You method would be correct if both players were playing in the exact same standard of teams, I can't see how you don't get this.

individual awards have nothing to do with the teams they play for. its easy to be a good player and stand out in a poor team.

by that logic, the likes of Benteke and Rickie Lambart should be winning it.

Sanity_Saviour

I think the funniest thing about this is the refusal of people to accept how good Bale is simply because the tabloids say he's good

kippy

Michu, robbed.com
Thats the last time am saying it.

wadacrack

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

I think the funniest thing about this is the refusal of people to accept how good Bale is simply because the tabloids say he's good

not really
i think we all know Bale is one of the best in the league & is world class
he was being compared to Ronaldo & Messi a few months ago which is ridiculous
he has only played one CL campaign

passremarkable

Bale has taken suarez award IMO

SM01

Bale was bloody great this season and is shaping up to be world-class (though not quite there yet.) However he wasn't quite as bloody good as RVP or Suarez in my opinion and I feel it should have been between those two.

Pro. F

homerjay2005 wrote: »

individual awards have nothing to do with the teams they play for. its easy to be a good player and stand out in a poor team.

by that logic, the likes of Benteke and Rickie Lambart should be winning it.

But Benteke and Ricky Lambart aren't as good as Suarez or RVP.

Individual awards and recognition are strongly influenced by the team that the players play for. You, for example, think that Suarez isn't as good as RVP because he didn't score as many match winning goals. But the reason Suarez didn't score as many match winning goals is because he plays for a much weaker team.

Sanity_Saviour

wadacrack wrote: »

not really
i think we all know Bale is one of the best in the league & is world class
he was being compared to Ronaldo & Messi a few months ago which is ridiculous
he has only played one CL campaign

Well it's pretty clear for all to see he's not in their league considering they're two of the best players of all time, but the attitude on this site seems to be that you'll gain internet points if you shun the fact he's a world class player because the Sun said so

Kiith

kippy wrote: »

Michu, robbed.com
Thats the last time am saying it.

You shouldn't have even said that...