DART fine

eoghandorman

Was on the DART earlier today using my dad's pass. Was caught by inspectors, they took my details, the pass and issued me with a fine of €100 which will be sent by post.
The inspector mentioned some sort of appeal I can make, anyone know what that means?
I'm under 18, is there anyway I can slip away from this fine, and what will happen if I just ignore it? (as in, can they take legal action against me)
(They took the fine in my dad's name)

Please, if you're all you're going to do is scold me then don't bother responding, I know I was in the wrong, but honestly I really don't wanna pay that steep a fine, it'll take two whole weekend's work to repay, please just give advise

Procrastastudy

eoghandorman wrote: »

Please, if you're all you're going to do is scold me then don't bother responding, I know I was in the wrong, but honestly I really don't wanna pay that steep a fine, it'll take two whole weekend's work to repay, please just give advise

LOL yeah that's gonna work.

monkeypants

What are your proposed grounds for appeal?

eoghandorman

monkeypants wrote: »

What are your proposed grounds for appeal?

That there was no money in the house at the time of my leaving for work (for which I was late for too), so I took my fathers dart pass for the day. It's the truth but is there any hope in evading the fine off that!

P_1

eoghandorman wrote: »

That there was no money in the house at the time of my leaving for work (for which I was late for too), so I took my fathers dart pass for the day. It's the truth but is there any hope in evading the fine off that!

Not a chance to be fair.

Your dad's pass is only for your dad to use I would have guessed.

Procrastastudy

As much as I think the OP should have been put in the cells for a couple of hours a quick question.

He's under 18 - so can they fine him?
His father didn't give permission for his pass to be used so I presume they can't fine him.

OP don't be so incredibly daft in future. Not a big leap from doing this to something that could land you with a criminal record that will stick with you for the rest of your life.

Strawberry Fields

I presume the father is also liable. Op talk to your dad. Failure to pay the fine can lead to court appearance, conviction and 1,000 fine. As his card is also in jeopardy I think he should be told. It's 100 yo yos?
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.4180620121.pdf

Also I don't think you've valid appeal groundshttp://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

eoghandorman

Strawberry Fields wrote: »

I presume the father is also liable. Op talk to your dad. Failure to pay the fine can lead to court appearance, conviction and 1,000 fine. As his card is also in jeopardy I think he should be told. It's 100 yo yos?
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.4180620121.pdf

Also I don't think you've valid appeal groundshttp://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

My way of thinking would be that I wasn't given his consent before using it, therefore he could not be held liable. My mother knew but she is not the legal owner either. Therefore the blame must lay on me. However as I am under tha age of 18, is it within the law for them to fine me. If they can't fine me as a minor, can they just push the fine onto my legal guardians?
It also says that the dart pass will be kept, and both myself and the owner could face prosecution. Do they follow through with this?

Paulw

eoghandorman wrote: »

Do they follow through with this?

Yes, they certainly do follow through. Talk to your parents, pay the fine, and move on. Otherwise, you will end up in court having to explain yourself to a judge.

drkpower

Why do you think they can't fine you as a minor?

Do you think that under 18s are immune from criminal responsibility?


It's always best to start from the common sense position and work from there.

SB2013

So your proposed defence is to confess that you stole the pass and are under 18 so can't be prosecuted?

ezra_pound

You've probably never seen the children's court. I work near it and you sound like the type of person who would not like having to spend too long with the other juveniles who frequent the place. I think your parents would rather pay 100e than have to hang around there with the regulars and their parents.

Procrastastudy

drkpower wrote: »

Why do you think they can't fine you as a minor?

Do you think that under 18s are immune from criminal responsibility?


It's always best to start from the common sense position and work from there.

SB2013 wrote: »

So your proposed defence is to confess that you stole the pass and are under 18 so can't be prosecuted?

But the fine hasn't been imposed by a court or indeed through a criminal law. My understanding of penalty fares and fines of this type that they were quasi-contract. Happy to be corrected.

ezra_pound

Procrastastudy wrote: »

But the fine hasn't been imposed by a court or indeed through a criminal law. My understanding of penalty fares and fines of this type that they were quasi-contract. Happy to be corrected.

The fine is imposed by criminal law. The op was given an on the spot fine by a member of CIE under legislative powers conferred upon them by the oireachtas. Otherwise all fare evaders would be wasting hours of precious court time.

. If the op refuses or fails to pay then the matter will be brought to court toddetermine the matter and a court fine will be imposed. If the op fails to pay this then the gardai may issue a warrant to imprison him or her.

Paulw

ezra_pound wrote: »

The fine is imposed by criminal law. The op was given an on the spot fine by a member of CIE under legislative powers conferred upon them by the oireachtas. Otherwise all fare evaders would be wasting hours of precious court time.

. If the op refuses or fails to pay then the matter will be brought to court toddetermine the matter and a court fine will be imposed. If the op fails to pay this then the gardai may issue a warrant to imprison him or her.

The OP was not fined by Irish Rail, but given a fixed penalty notice. If he doesn't pay, it will go to court, and the court will impose a fine.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_faq.jsp?i=4272&caID=64&ci=1&pc=1&gc=0&p=115&n=130

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.51.pdf

eoghandorman

Ok so assuming I pay the fine, seeing as my appeal is looking pretty weak, will they still hold on to my fathers pass. Just found out the pass itself is worth €1200. Can he not take it back, on the grounds that he had no idea it had been taken?

Procrastastudy

eoghandorman wrote: »

Ok so assuming I pay the fine, seeing as my appeal is looking pretty weak, will they still hold on to my fathers pass. Just found out the pass itself is worth €1200. Can he not take it back, on the grounds that he had no idea it had been taken?

25 full weekends at this stage.

eoghandorman

25weekends until he gets it back?

Procrastastudy

eoghandorman wrote: »

25weekends until he gets it back?

If it takes you 2 weekends to pay €100 you'll need to work another 24 weekends to pay for the pass.

It'd be dicey enough getting it back as if your dad claims he knew nothing about it you might be open to other potential issues. Others clearly know more than I so I'd wait for a more considered answer.

Paulw

eoghandorman wrote: »

Ok so assuming I pay the fine, seeing as my appeal is looking pretty weak, will they still hold on to my fathers pass. Just found out the pass itself is worth €1200. Can he not take it back, on the grounds that he had no idea it had been taken?

He can't simply take it back. It was misused by a member of the family. The pass is subject to terms and conditions, such as usage. Breaking those rules can mean that the ticket is then made void.

He can make an appeal though, but this is up to the decision of IrishRail.

ezra_pound

Paulw wrote: »

The OP was not fined by Irish Rail, but given a fixed penalty notice. If he doesn't pay, it will go to court, and the court will impose a fine.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_faq.jsp?i=4272&caID=64&ci=1&pc=1&gc=0&p=115&n=130

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.51.pdf

Yes. He was given a fixed penalty notice from Irish rail.

Procrastastudy

Paulw wrote: »

He can't simply take it back. It was misused by a member of the family. The pass is subject to terms and conditions, such as usage. Breaking those rules can mean that the ticket is then made void.

He can make an appeal though, but this is up to the decision of IrishRail.

Again I'm a bit confused by this but I'm sure on a practical level you're correct. Surely someone can't be held responsible for the actions of another?

Paulw

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Again I'm a bit confused by this but I'm sure on a practical level you're correct. Surely someone can't be held responsible for the actions of another?

I can't find a link right now, but I believe one of the terms is that you are responsible for the card and usage of the card. So, if it is misused (ie used by someone other than the card owner) you are in breach of those conditions.

The card was not reported as stolen, therefore IrishRail would make the assumption that the card was used with permission.

eoghandorman

Paulw wrote: »

I can't find a link right now, but I believe one of the terms is that you are responsible for the card and usage of the card. So, if it is misused (ie used by someone other than the card owner) you are in breach of those conditions.

The card was not reported as stolen, therefore IrishRail would make the assumption that the card was used with permission.

Surely they can improvise. If the card was taken that day, unbeknownst to the owner, then he would nt be able to report it missing. Don't they feel any empathy?

Tom Young

I'm not impressed by this thread. Think it should be closed.

Paulw

eoghandorman wrote: »

f the card was taken that day, unbeknownst to the owner, then he would nt be able to report it missing. Don't they feel any empathy?

Don't you feel any remorse? You took the card. You didn't pay the correct fare on the DART. You received a fixed penalty notice and you also caused your dad's card to be confiscated.

Pay your fixed penalty notice, repay your dad for his card, learn your lesson and move on. There is no way around it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

eoghandorman wrote: »

Surely they can improvise. If the card was taken that day, unbeknownst to the owner, then he would nt be able to report it missing. Don't they feel any empathy?

I think your father would have to swear out a complaint to the Guards that it was stolen and the Guards would launch criminal procedures against the thief (ie you).

The Guards would take the pass off Irish Rail as evidence and at the end of your case in court your father would have his stolen property returned to him.

You wouldn't suffer anything major as you are just a kid and might get away with community service.

Victor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

You wouldn't suffer anything major as you are just a kid and might get away with community service.

It would still be a conviction for two offences.

OP, talk to your parents, explain what happened - this is the least of your worries. Have your father talk to Irish Rail about his ticket - do not discuss it with them yourself.

Paying the ticket will cost you €100 (and possibly the amount of the fare also).

Going to court will cost you €100, solicitor fees and possibly much more. Do not go to court without a solicitor - get free legal aid if necessary.

This is a life lesson - learn from it.

danjo-xx

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think your father would have to swear out a complaint to the Guards that it was stolen and the Guards would launch criminal procedures against the thief (ie you).

The Guards would take the pass off Irish Rail as evidence and at the end of your case in court your father would have his stolen property returned to him.

You wouldn't suffer anything major as you are just a kid and might get away with community service.

If op goes down this route, is this not in effect, adding another crime of sorts, e.g. 'wasting garda time' to what is currently just a Fixed Penalty Notice.