Docking pups' tails

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

A pup should be only docked before it is 3 days old and by someone that knows what they are doing ,it is like a baby having its cord cut.
If it has not been done by then you have to just leave it , it will be an amputation by then.

Not it isn't. The umbilical cord doesn't have any nerve endings and is designed to naturally separate from a baby, puppy, or other newborn mammal. The tail has plenty of nerve endings and bone and is not designed to naturally separate from the pup. There's a reason why humans born with a vestigial tail have them removed under anaesthetic rather than just chopping it off in the first day or so of life.

SillyMangoX

lb1981 wrote: »

I have seen the damage first hand on an undocked dogs tail it is very hard to heal and i have seen it ending up in an amputation as the infection got so bad,it is very hard to keep it uninfected .

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

Not it isn't. The umbilical cord doesn't have any nerve endings and is designed to naturally separate from a baby, puppy, or other newborn mammal. The tail has plenty of nerve endings and bone and is not designed to naturally separate from the pup. There's a reason why humans born with a vestigial tail have them removed under anaesthetic rather than just chopping it off in the first day or so of life.

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

<snip>

Knine

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

+1

These working gundogs must be going into cover arse first. Mine tend to go in head first.

lb1981

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I've seen first hand injuries in working dogs paws that end up with severe infection and amputation. Should they have their legs removed at birth too?:rolleyes:

Paws and legs do get injured sometimes yes but it is not that often were a soft tail is cut easily as the dog is charging through cover , the tail wags at speed once they are on to game so it is moving in the torn bush even if the dog is standing still.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

Yes there is. Only the tip of the tail doesn't have vertebrae in it. Dogs are docked relatively close to their hips and the tail definitely does have bone there. I have seen bone showing on badly-docked puppies.

<snip>
Do you think this is less "cruel" than a dog cutting its tail every week while out hunting.

This is not an indication of lack of pain, and may indicate just the opposite. From P C Bennett and E Perini, Tail docking in dogs: a review of the issues. Australian Veterinary
Journal 81(4):208-218 (2003)

It is sometimes suggested that the fact that puppies fall asleep or suckle within a few minutes of tail-docking
indicates that they are not in pain. However, it could indicate the reverse. Others have pointed out that there
may be evolutionary reasons for puppies sleeping and suckling, as a way of conserving strength at a time of
injury. It is also possible that the puppies suckle to reduce the pain, as it is known that the act of suckling
stimulates the release of endogenous opioids (endorphins) that produce analgesia.

lb1981

Examples

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

Yes there is. Only the tip of the tail doesn't have vertebrae in it. Dogs are docked relatively close to their hips and the tail definitely does have bone there. I have seen bone showing on badly-docked puppies.


This is not an indication of lack of pain, and may indicate just the opposite. From P C Bennett and E Perini, Tail docking in dogs: a review of the issues. Australian Veterinary
Journal 81(4):208-218 (2003)

Any dog that is docked close to the hips or has bone showing was not docked correctly and was done by a fool.
That report is only opinion and is not fact ,it is just his view.
Im giving first hand experience here , i cant stand cruelty to animals so if i thought it was cruel it would not be done on my dogs.
All your doing is googling answers to try prove me wrong.

Wibbs

It's amazing how wild canines who have to hunt to survive and do so in various levels of cover evolved to have no tails. Oh wait. They didn't.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

Any dog that is docked close to the hips or has bone showing was not docked correctly and was done by a fool.
That report is only opinion and is not fact ,it is just his view.
Im giving first hand experience here , i cant stand cruelty to animals so if i thought it was cruel it would not be done on my dogs.
All your doing is googling answers to try prove me wrong.

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

lb1981

Wibbs wrote: »

It's amazing how wild canines who have to hunt to survive and do so in various levels of cover evolved to have no tails. Oh wait. They didn't.

Ok look at the structure of the tails ,they are strong, thick and well covered with fur, like labradores which are not docked for that reason.
As i said people just googling crap and have no experience in this field at all.

Knine

kylith wrote: »

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

Believe me they feel pain. Mine screamed. And as I mentioned Never again.

I've seen banding done too which was not as severe but takes longer.

Synyster Shadow

Iv a Doberman and he would look so odd with a full tail. That been said when I got him he was near dead. He was docked wrong and at 5 weeks old and had an infection in his stump that nearly went into his spine which would have killed him took months to fully heal and in the end sudocream fixed it as he wouldn't touch his tail cause he hated the taste. If It was done in first week it would have healed before he had the ability to chew it. He also had a few other problems but let's just say he was a lucky puppy and for the first few days he slept in bed with me and hubby (it was during the bad snow and had sinus infection and was under weight so had to keep him warm)

I don't say it should be illegal but people need to be educated as to when to have it done and do that before having a litter of pups

Magenta

lb1981 wrote: »

So many people commenting in this thread haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

lb1981 wrote: »

There is no bone in the part of the tail that is cut off.

Consider yourself educated.

lb1981

kylith wrote: »

I said relatively close to the hip, as opposed to about 90% of the way down the tail which is where the bone actually ends.

No, what I'm doing is researching studies which have shown that puppies feel pain when docked. If you have any studies showing the opposite you're welcome to link me to them.

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

Knine

lb1981 wrote: »

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

Well the screams of the puppies told me all I needed to know.

JustRoss23

well the same could be said for a dog stuck in brush hence why i have the docked the future springer pups.

lb1981

Knine wrote: »

Believe me they feel pain. Mine screamed. And as I mentioned Never again.

I've seen banding done too which was not as severe but takes longer.

Dont like that banding it is too prolonged.

What i think should be done is the way it is in England , working dogs are docked by a vet so you have a cert for docking and de clawed so when selling the pups you have the cert to prove they were done properly , that would cut out the cowboy jobs that are done on dogs.

P.s i dont agree with cropping or docking for fashion, the reason it is done on some working dogs is because it is an necessity.

lb1981

Knine wrote: »

Well the screams of the puppies told me all I needed to know.

mate who the hell done your dogs , the most ever heard is a small yelp and that was it ,the twine tied around the tail for a few mins numbs the area a bit before the cut.
Your dogs should not have been screaming.

kylith

lb1981 wrote: »

That study proves noting it is only opinion and suggestions therefore it is not proved a puppy is in excruciating pain from being docked.

You have nothing but opinion that it doesn't hurt. The study I quoted found that in a 1996 survey of Australian vets 75% believed that it caused significant pain and none believed that no pain was felt. Another study observed

All pups appeared distressed by the amputation of the tail. Relatively continuous mild
vocalizations during the preparation of the tail turned dramatically to repeated and intense
shrieking vocalizations at the moment the tail was docked. The intensity of vocalizations
decreased slightly (but was still above the intensity made during preparation of the tail) in the
period between amputation and placement of the suture (if appropriate). At the moment of
piercing the skin for suture placement, vocalizations again returned to levels comparable with the
amputation. Similar intense vocalizations were noticed when pressure was placed on the suture
material as the knot was tied. The average number of shrieks made during the amputation of the
tail was 24 (range of 5 to 33). The average number of whimpers made during the amputation of
the tail was 18 (range of 2 to 46). All pups exhibited some degree of bleeding from the stump
following docking

G J Noonan et al., Behavioural observations of puppies undergoing tail docking. Applied Animal
Behaviour Science 49:335-342 (1996)

Again, if you have any studies showing that it does not cause pain you are welcome to link to them.

JustRoss23

Have you every been out hunting? if not then maybe you should and you will see how much pains dogs go through with long tail's geting caught in scrub brush etc in particular springers and then maybe you wont be soo quick to judge.

Knine

JustRoss23 wrote: »

Have you every been out hunting? if not then maybe you should and you will see how much pains dogs go through with long tail's geting caught in scrub brush etc in particular springers and then maybe you wont be soo quick to judge.

Yeah I have as dogs from my stock have qualfied in the field.

I also take my dogs out to watch them in action even though I don't shoot and they will go into any cover. I also have terriers with long tails that go into cover. No problems apart from the odd leg injury.

JustRoss23

well your lucky my springers and at least 12 others in our clubs all have got into trouble one even damaged it that much it had to get it removed anyway.. i suppose its each to there own at the end of the day there's nothing one can do about it its allowed and that's that:D... next thing they will try and ban fox hunting;)

lb1981

Knine wrote: »

Yeah I have as dogs from my stock have qualfied in the field.

I also take my dogs out to watch them in action even though I don't shoot and they will go into any cover. I also have terriers with long tails that go into cover. No problems apart from the odd leg injury.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

**Vai**

OP, your friend, the vet and anyone on this thread and beyond who docks a dogs tail for anything other than absolute necessity, needs to be banned from owning animals due to lack of brain function.

JustRoss23

^^^
For a comment like that you need to banned due to lack of brain function.

Synyster Shadow

**Vai** wrote: »

OP, your friend, the vet and anyone on this thread and beyond who docks a dogs tail for anything other than absolute necessity, needs to be banned from owning animals due to lack of brain function.

Seems a little harsh. Obviously at 8 weeks it's pure stupidity, but done at the right age by a vet is been responsible.

**Vai**

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

Seems a little harsh. Obviously at 8 weeks it's pure stupidity, but done at the right age by a vet is been responsible.

See the part where I said "anything other than necessity". Happy to reply to you but I wont be replying to certain others who clearly have no clue.

Hellrazer

JustRoss23 wrote: »

^^^
For a comment like that you need to banned due to lack of brain function.

Attack the post and not the poster are boards.ie general rules.

Consider this a final warning Justross.You have come up on the mods radars too many times in the last few weeks.
Im asking you now to calm down your style of posting or I will issue you with a ban from the forum for good.
And dont respond to this warning on thread.

Wibbs

lb1981 wrote: »

Ok look at the structure of the tails ,they are strong, thick and well covered with fur, like labradores which are not docked for that reason.

Labradors don't have tails that look anything like those examples and their tails are meatier than wolves and foxes.

As i said people just googling crap and have no experience in this field at all.

Or people questioning a questionable practice, that survives just as much down to "oh we've always done this" rather than good scientific reasoning. On the particular breed front surely if dogs bred for cover work suffered from overly weak tails why wasn't this bred out of the lines long ago?