Docking pups' tails

Synyster Shadow

Maybe it been illegal won't happen so if they fight to keep it. Either that or it is made illegal and people try docking themselves instead of been able go to a vets. Hard to know what's best

Nody

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

Maybe it been illegal won't happen so if they fight to keep it. Either that or it is made illegal and people try docking themselves instead of been able go to a vets. Hard to know what's best

Making it illegal full stop will at least start moving people towards changing habits; if not you can do a similar argument about anything (oh people may break the law or do stupid ****).

ISDW

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

Maybe it been illegal won't happen so if they fight to keep it. Either that or it is made illegal and people try docking themselves instead of been able go to a vets. Hard to know what's best

At the moment, the only way it can be done is if people do it for themselves, as vets are not allowed to by their own council, they can be struck off if they dock tails unless for medical reasons.

Synyster Shadow

I know one vet in the midlands that will go to your house and do it for you. I won't go near him.

A man I know had a litter of Doberman's and 2 died from loss of blood when he docked them 6 survived but I walked away when he said it and cried

ISDW

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

I know one vet in the midlands that will go to your house and do it for you. I won't go near him.

A man I know had a litter of Doberman's and 2 died from loss of blood when he docked them 6 survived but I walked away when he said it and cried

Then you should report the pair of them, the vet and the breeder, as the vet can be stopped practicing, and the breeder could be prosecuted for animal cruelty.

Rommie

x Purple Pawprints x wrote: »

Docked tails are breed standard for some as far as I know.

I thought docking was banned in the UK now? And no dog docked after a certain year can be shown? So it wouldn't be part of the standard then surely? This is the FCI standard for rottweilers:

"Back: Straight, strong, firm.
Loins: Short, strong and deep.
Croup: Broad, of medium length, slightly rounded. Neither flat nor falling away.
Chest: Roomy, broad and deep (approximately 50 % of the shoulder height) with well developed forechest and well sprung ribs.
Belly: Flanks not tucked up.
Tail: In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease may be hanging"

x Purple Pawprints x

Apologies. You're actually right.

DBB

Rommie wrote: »

I thought docking was banned in the UK now? And no dog docked after a certain year can be shown? So it wouldn't be part of the standard then surely? This is the FCI standard for rottweilers:

"Back: Straight, strong, firm.
Loins: Short, strong and deep.
Croup: Broad, of medium length, slightly rounded. Neither flat nor falling away.
Chest: Roomy, broad and deep (approximately 50 % of the shoulder height) with well developed forechest and well sprung ribs.
Belly: Flanks not tucked up.
Tail: In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease may be hanging"

You're not allowed show a docked dog born after a certain date Rommie (I can't remember that date, maybe four years ago?), but that's just Kennel Club rules, not law.
Under UK Animal Welfare Law, it is illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock a tail: in the case of pups, they must be done by a certain age, and if adult, they may only be done if medically necessary to relieve suffering.
So, in other words, the English (and Scottish, and NI) Welfare Acts bring the vets back into the loop, and ban half-wits from taking on to do it themselves. The problem is, it can never be completely banned, this could never be enforced. So, I guess the best compromise was to draft the new laws so that at least if dogs are to be done, they're done properly.

As for the necessity of docking for working spaniels, I posted before that my vet sees a lot of working Springers, her practice is in the heart of pheasant shooting territory. She sees as many damaged docked tails as she does undocked, and advises owners not to dock, but to keep the tail feathers clipped short. In her considerable experience, this works very well.

petals

If the dog wasn't meant to have a tail it wouldn't be born with one.
Isn't it illegal to dock a dogs tail anyway?

andreac

petals wrote: »

If the dog wasn't meant to have a tail it wouldn't be born with one.
Isn't it illegal to dock a dogs tail anyway?

No it's not illegal in Ireland. It is in the uk.

JustRoss23

No its not illegal

Hellrazer

JustRoss23 wrote: »

NO ITS NOT ILLEGAL

Stop shouting.We get your point

ISDW

JustRoss23 wrote: »

No its not illegal

Yet

**Vai**

ISDW wrote: »

Yet

The way this country is run we might get a decent law against tail docking in about 50 years but heres hoping!

JustRoss23

ISDW wrote: »

Yet

will Ireland come out of this recession?

i feel the same about docking highly unlikely

x Purple Pawprints x

^ no offence but those smileys make you come across very condescending. You can make your point without them.

I hope there is proper legislation at some point soon but considering that some animal welfare legislation is from the before 1900 I can't really see it happening.

DBB

x Purple Pawprints x wrote: »

^ no offence but those smileys make you come across very condescending. You can make your point without them.

There is no rule to stop users using smileys: they wouldn't be there if there was. Please stay on tropic.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Vojera

x Purple Pawprints x wrote: »

I hope there is proper legislation at some point soon but considering that some animal welfare legislation is from the before 1900 I can't really see it happening.

AFAIK the animal welfare bill that was before the Dail last year (or that was meant to come up, I'm not sure if it ever did) has a section on banning docking and ear cropping, but if I recall properly there was some controversy about people still wanting to be able to dock working dogs. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I feel like that bill will be a long time coming.

In any case, whether you're pro- or anti-docking, the situation that the OP mentioned where a vet has agreed to dock an 8 week old pup IS illegal, and also against the veterinary code of conduct. It makes you wonder how common illegal cases like this are.

DBB

Vojera wrote: »

AFAIK the animal welfare bill that was before the Dail last year (or that was meant to come up, I'm not sure if it ever did) has a section on banning docking and ear cropping, but if I recall properly there was some controversy about people still wanting to be able to dock working dogs. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I feel like that bill will be a long time coming.

In any case, whether you're pro- or anti-docking, the situation that the OP mentioned where a vet has agreed to dock an 8 week old pup IS illegal, and also against the veterinary code of conduct. It makes you wonder how common illegal cases like this are.

I can pretty much guarantee that docking will never be banned, because it can't be.. it simply can't be enforced. If we ever get this new Animal Welfare bill to have a read of, I can pretty much guarantee it'll be modeled on the English/Scottish/ NI law that I referred to above: docking will be illegal for anyone other than a vet to do, and only on dogs of a certain age (pups) or for valid medical reasons.

I have heard of many a vet that will dock pups' tails, on a nod and wink basis. But as someone else has posted, it's a terrible position for vets to be in, to know that if they don't do it, some half-wit will.

This is not to say that I support tail-docking, I most certainly don't. But realistically, it'll never be banned.

Magenta

Vojera wrote: »

In any case, whether you're pro- or anti-docking, the situation that the OP mentioned where a vet has agreed to dock an 8 week old pup IS illegal, and also against the veterinary code of conduct. It makes you wonder how common illegal cases like this are.

It's not illegal in Ireland. As a few people have already said.

ISDW

Magenta wrote: »

It's not illegal in Ireland. As a few people have already said.

It is, on a dog over 4 weeks of age, unless it is carried out by a vet.

JustRoss23

Wow you can do it up to 4 weeks?:D i never new that taught it was up to 3 days:D:D

ISDW

JustRoss23 wrote: »

Wow you can do it up to 4 weeks?:D i never new that taught it was up to 3 days:D:D

Not quite sure what teaching has to do with anything Just read the laws of the land, you'll find out all you need to know

JustRoss23

what do you mean teaching?:o:o i's cant read that well:( but thanks for your help your soooooooooo sound;)

TooManyDogs

DBB wrote: »

I can pretty much guarantee that docking will never be banned, because it can't be.. it simply can't be enforced.

I can only hope that if we follow other European countries that ban dogs being shown in various different disciplines if they have docked tails that the trend will turn away from it. In a lot of European countries you cannot compete in agility with your dog if their tail is docked, regardless of whether you are a resident of that country or not. The World Agility Open Championships were held in Belgium last year and dogs docked after their own laws changed in 2006 were not allowed compete regardless of what country they were travelling and competing for. Believe me this does put people off taking on docked pups if they have any ambitions of competing internationally. In Belgium this rule covers any dogs coming to compete in breed shows, obedience, flyball, agility etc etc

FoxyVixen

maggiepip wrote: »

Also a docked tail can cause life long pain in dogs - one of the reasons being the formation of neuromas - which is a mass of swollen tangled nerves - and a nerve pain is a horrible horrible pain. I read somewhere before that some study was done on Rottweilers (I think)who had been put to sleep due to aggression issues - post mortems were preformed and something like 95% of the "aggressive" Rottweilers actually had docked tail neuromas and would have been in considerable long term pain - hence the aggression. There no need for docking its simply cruel.

Have you a link to this study please? Or if not can you remember who did the study? Be interested in reading up on that.

DBB

Well, you learn something new every day! I didn't know that docked tails were banned in competitive agility! Very interesting, and a very good move, thanks for the info!
I agree completely that banning of docked tails in agility, and for showing (in the UK), is a very positive move and will contribute towards re-programming the human mindset into accepting full tails as "normal" and lovely, whilst also making a docked tail unacceptable, a thing of the past. But I'd like to see the IKC having the mettle to implement the same rules in Ireland, and for other KCs around the world to do the same. Who knows, maybe some field trials organisations will start to implement it too! What a brave and laudable step that'd be!
There's a very rigid mindset in Ireland about docking, the "we've done it this way for years, therefore it must be right. Right?" mindset. These would be the same people who refuse to acknowledge the accepted scientific evidence, the physiological and behavioural indicators of diminished welfare shown by animals who have had their tails amputated, at any age. The VCI, the English, Scottish and Northern Irish legislators were all convinced enough of the evidence on welfare implications to ban the practice, but it seems the slackjaws with the chisel and hammer know better.

TooManyDogs

DBB wrote: »

Well, you learn something new every day! I didn't know that docked tails were banned in competitive agility! Very interesting, and a very good move, thanks for the info!

Now it is very much country to country, the European Agility Open was held in Sweden last year and Swedish dogs weren't allowed compete if they were docked after the law came place, and if your dog was born before the law changed then you were allowed compete ONLY IF your country allowed docking,, and the dog wasn't bred from a Swedish or Norwegian owned bitch. If your own country didn't allow docking then you can't compete with them in Sweden after their law changed.

The Belfast Dog Show Society are holding an Easter show with agility and obedience at it and for the first time ever I've seen a note about docking on the schedule. At the moment it only affects dogs for the breed show but dogs born after 1st January are not allowed compete in any part of a show held by BDSS unless they have a full tail or have a 'legally docked' tail. I'm assuming 'legally' docked would mean that you have a vet cert for the proceedure.

andreac

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Now it is very much country to country, the European Agility Open was held in Sweden last year and Swedish dogs weren't allowed compete if they were docked after the law came place, and if your dog was born before the law changed then you were allowed compete ONLY IF your country allowed docking,, and the dog wasn't bred from a Swedish or Norwegian owned bitch. If your own country didn't allow docking then you can't compete with them in Sweden after their law changed.

The Belfast Dog Show Society are holding an Easter show with agility and obedience at it and for the first time ever I've seen a note about docking on the schedule. At the moment it only affects dogs for the breed show but dogs born after 1st January are not allowed compete in any part of a show held by BDSS unless they have a full tail or have a 'legally docked' tail. I'm assuming 'legally' docked would mean that you have a vet cert for the proceedure.

That's because it's now illegal to dock in n.i. After first January this year. So any dogs docked after that date are not allowed to be shown at any dog shows run in Northern Ireland.

TooManyDogs

andreac wrote: »

That's because it's now illegal to dock in n.i. After first January this year. So any dogs docked after that date are not allowed to be shown at any dog shows run in Northern Ireland.

Delighted to hear it, was just pleased (and a little :eek: cos I've a little docked rescue terrier) that it was extended to agility and obedience too