Does the public care about the lives of doctors?

Dr Nic

Hi,
Just interested to hear about how non medical people feel about doctors work life? Now that the facebook furore has died down a bit and the HSE continues to enforce ridiculous illegal terms upon all doctors who are not consultants, do people really care?

The local hospital has 1 in 3 call in place in some specialities. That means 90 hours a week approx. On both of the 30+ hour shifts those docs will get about 4 hours sleep tops, and have screaming patients abusing them or consultants mocking their efforts.

It is the hardest job in the world really. Having seen a couple of different professional industries before going back as a mature, i think this is safe to say.

Nurses have a very difficult job, but are more protected hours wise and can always bleep the doc when sh1t hits the fan. Guardai have probably a harder job 5% of the time, but again are more protected hours wise. I cant think of any other job that is harder. And only 3% of all docs will ever make consultancy, and that takes about 12 yrs and a few of those years overseas with no guaranteees of anything.

Im not saying this in attempt to garner pity or anything. Just to guage opinion, now that the media spotlight is gone and the illegal HSE rolls on

Thank you

beeroclock

Over paid money grabbers sums up alot of them for me

I'm sure many convince themselves deep down they are in for philanthropic reasons but a GP will often double charge i.e oh that cold is a virus not a bacteria like I originally guessed so thats another 50 quid please

So no I dont care about the hours as Im sure one day when your a consultant you'll be creaming it in

P_1

People rarely seem to care about anything that isn't in their own personal interest until that issue goes on to impact on their own personal interest.

Hence the 'moneygrabbers, why should I care about them' attitude displayed across the board.

Kristopherus

They are one of the professional groups that have not dropped their charges over the past 4/5 years. I have very little sympathy for them.:(

Scortho

Junior doctors get screwed. GPS and consultants are the protected segment of the health profession which warns all doctors a bad name.
The hours that some juniors are expected to put in boarders on dangerous.
Yes juniors are paid well, but the work they put in is extreme.

Play To Kill

Dr Nic wrote: »

It is the hardest job in the world really.

Really? I doubt that very much. I have very little sympathy for the doctors, all I ever hear is them moaning about having to work 90 hours a week as if it is only doctors who do this. Many other people work long unsociable hours and they don't have the reward of a lucrative career ahead of them. Their reward is the ability to feed their families and pay their bills and listen to the whinging public service complaining about how tough it is for them.

beeno67

Play To Kill wrote: »

Really? I doubt that very much. I have very little sympathy for the doctors, all I ever hear is them moaning about having to work 90 hours a week as if it is only doctors who do this. Many other people work long unsociable hours .

Out of interest. Who?

dharma200

I have sympathy for people who cant afford heating and freeze, people who cant afford to feed their kids, people who cant afford to educate themselves or their children... I have sympathy for people on the streets, people who have to get free handouts for food in food queues up and down ireland.. I have sympathy for people who are being evicted from their homes, people who have to actually get treatiment in the public health care system in ireland. I have sympathy for my own children, one who has waited two years for her ears to be looked at and one who has waited over a year for an operation that should have been done a year ago. I have sympathy for carers of disabled and elderly people who live on pittance. I have very little sympathy for doctors wherever int he scale they find themselves in. The basic annual salary of junior hospital doctors ranges from around €30,000 for an intern to €79,000 for a senior registrar at the top of the scale... plus serious overtime. Sympathy.... nope. try working for 8 euros an hour in a nursing home wiping peoples s%^&... or looking after your elderly relative for 180 quid a week. So sorry... very low down in the sympathy list....

thebman

The attitude on here is ridiculous TBH.

Junior doctors whatever they are getting paid should not be working in such conditions.

Not only for themselves but for the safety of their patients.

Nobody will do it for junior doctors though as they can't, junior doctors have to fight for their own rights just like every other section of society.

One must look at the reasons why this problem exists and then try to solve it. If you just reduce the hours, you'll have a massive lack of doctors I would think.

Play To Kill

beeno67 wrote: »

Out of interest. Who?

People in the service industry for example such as electricians etc. Many self employed sole traders such as myself, when I finish my days work with customers I then have to start the administration work that goes with being self employed.

dahamsta

Agree 100% with thebman.

P_1

thebman wrote: »

The attitude on here is ridiculous TBH.

Junior doctors whatever they are getting paid should not be working in such conditions.

Not only for themselves but for the safety of their patients.

Nobody will do it for junior doctors though as they can't, junior doctors have to fight for their own rights just like every other section of society.

One must look at the reasons why this problem exists and then try to solve it. If you just reduce the hours, you'll have a massive lack of doctors I would think.

Exactly, step one is identifying the problem, step two is identifying the solution and step three is implementing the solution.

Having a whinge doesn't really do anything constructive save for making you feel a bit better for a moment.

beeno67

Play To Kill wrote: »

People in the service industry for example such as electricians etc. Many self employed sole traders such as myself, when I finish my days work with customers I then have to start the administration work that goes with being self employed.

You work 90 hours a week? 13 hours a day 7 days a week? Really?

Esoteric_

I've worked fourteen hour shifts, seven days a week in my last job, for minimum wage, in a fast paced environment, so I definitely feel for any doctor doing the same. I was on awful money, but I wouldn't want to do it again for any wage. Surely leaving doctors so exhausted is extremely dangerous, given the profession they're in? When I was exhausted in my last job, I'd have accidents, forget things, have memory lapses, etc. I wasn't in an industry that's skilled, so it wasn't a problem for me, but surely having someone so exhausted treating patients is just dangerous for both the doctor and patient?

dissed doc

Scortho wrote: »

Junior doctors get screwed. GPS and consultants are the protected segment of the health profession which warns all doctors a bad name.
The hours that some juniors are expected to put in boarders on dangerous.
Yes juniors are paid well, but the work they put in is extreme.

Starting salary is 30k (net €877/fortnight). What's so well paid about it?

Consultants get zero protection and are expected to be on duty 24/7 if necessary without compensation.

strandroad

Scortho wrote: »

Junior doctors get screwed. GPS and consultants are the protected segment of the health profession which warns all doctors a bad name.

I think this is it, it's happening in many sectors. Seniors on top are working juniors to the bone to protect their own income, pensions, entitlements etc. It's like school bullying, new entrants are subject to bullying so when they reach the top they bully others for what they have suffered before. I do not feel that the treatment of junior doctors is fair but they need to turn on their own seniors to spread the load and resources better. HSE is commanding crazy money, but what is it spent on instead?

Play To Kill

beeno67 wrote: »

You work 90 hours a week? 13 hours a day 7 days a week? Really?

Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm plus 2 hours admin and preparation for the next day, Saturday 9am to 2 pm plus 4 hours administration and 2 to 3 hours on Sunday in preparation for the following week would be a normal week for me, not quite 90 hours but pretty close.

MysticalRain

It's an appalling situation alight. But can't junior doctors show initiative by protesting, going out on strike, lobbying TD's, and generally raising hell until something is done about the situation? Organisations like the government or the HSE generally don't budge until somebody puts the boot up their arse. Have the junior doctors not already tried that?

beeno67

dissed doc wrote: »

Starting salary is 30k (net €877/fortnight). What's so well paid about it?

Consultants get zero protection and are expected to be on duty 24/7 if necessary without compensation.

You cannot in one post say you work 90 hours and then say you only get paid 30k. This is the stupid statements that loose doctors support. Junior doctors are extremely well paid. Don't try to pretend otherwise it makes a no sense of the argument. 90 hours is a hell if a lot to work but you are paid a hell if a lot for it.

Why not quote the salary a 4th year specialist reg gets for working 90 hours a week?

Bertie Woot

Dr Nic wrote: »

Hi,
Just interested to hear about how non medical people feel about doctors work life? Now that the facebook furore has died down a bit and the HSE continues to enforce ridiculous illegal terms upon all doctors who are not consultants, do people really care?

The local hospital has 1 in 3 call in place in some specialities. That means 90 hours a week approx. On both of the 30+ hour shifts those docs will get about 4 hours sleep tops, and have screaming patients abusing them or consultants mocking their efforts.

It is the hardest job in the world really. Having seen a couple of different professional industries before going back as a mature, i think this is safe to say.

Nurses have a very difficult job, but are more protected hours wise and can always bleep the doc when sh1t hits the fan. Guardai have probably a harder job 5% of the time, but again are more protected hours wise. I cant think of any other job that is harder. And only 3% of all docs will ever make consultancy, and that takes about 12 yrs and a few of those years overseas with no guaranteees of anything.

Im not saying this in attempt to garner pity or anything. Just to guage opinion, now that the media spotlight is gone and the illegal HSE rolls on

Thank you

Medical students study for 6-7 years to become doctors. They have plenty of time to consider the nature of the profession they want to gain entry to. Many of them study medicine not for philanthropic reasons, but because they want the white coat, the occupational status, and of course the salary. Like students who study Law, they are in the main self-interested status seekers, interested in money, power, social and occupational status, and control. You might think that a cynical analysis, but my experience of doctors bears this out.

I live in Northern Ireland, which as you may be aware, is a part of the United Kingdom. Complaints against doctors in the UK have soared in recent years, and among these complaints there was a significant rise in concerns about how doctors interacted with their patients; allegations about communication increased by 69%, and a lack of respect rose by 45%.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/news/13895.asp

I have experienced this "lack of respect" at first hand. In fact, a number of doctors I have come into contact with could only be described as domineering control freaks and bullies. One doctor in particular, who was a very obvious bully, received a damning report because of the way I was treated by him.

You can read this report here:

https://www.iwantgreatcare.org/en/doctors/dr-ian-rowan

Doctors may have a "difficult" job, but bullying must not and cannot be tolerated. If doctors are experiencing career and/or personal problems, they should contact a counsellor or seek professional psychiatric assistance, not attempt to use their patents as a scapegoat, or an avenue to deal with their personal problems.

cast_iron

beeno67 wrote: »

You cannot in one post say you work 90 hours and then say you only get paid 30k. This is the stupid statements that loose doctors support. Junior doctors are extremely well paid. Don't try to pretend otherwise it makes a no sense of the argument. 90 hours is a hell if a lot to work but you are paid a hell if a lot for it.

Why not quote the salary a 4th year specialist reg gets for working 90 hours a week?

Well no one really quotes overtime in headline figures. A junior doctor does get a basic of about €30k salary after 6 years of study and a years internship. You would get something similar in Tesco straight out of 2nd level school. Also, if you worked 90 hours in Tesco, you would get alot more, just like a doctor would.

Hours for doctors have been cut substantially in recent years. They don't do 90 hours every week, maybe every 2nd or 3rd week depending on the area they are in.

But then doctors rise up the scale fairly quickly as they become more qualified and experienced and carry more responsibility. After 5 years in Tesco, you will no better qualified than you were at the start, broadly speaking.

beeno67

cast_iron wrote: »

Well no one really quotes overtime in headline figures. A junior doctor does get a basic of about €30k salary after 6 years of study and a years internship. You would get something similar in Tesco straight out of 2nd level school. Also, if you worked 90 hours in Tesco, you would get alot more, just like a doctor would.

Hours for doctors have been cut substantially in recent years. They don't do 90 hours every week, maybe every 2nd or 3rd week depending on the area they are in.

But then doctors rise up the scale fairly quickly as they become more qualified and experienced and carry more responsibility. After 5 years in Tesco, you will no better qualified than you were at the start, broadly speaking.

The thread is about the excessive hours doctors work. There is no point then saying what they get paid for the first 39. How much does a registrar get for a 90 hour week? This is a reasonable question. Why not just answer it. Pick a first year reg if you want. If you say they are poorly paid, fair enough, let us see the pay and then decide.
You should point out that the basic pay for a first year reg which may be a person 3 years qualified is about €50,000 before any overtime. A senior reg with more experience can get a basic of 80k

robp

Dr Nic wrote: »

Hi,
Just interested to hear about how non medical people feel about doctors work life? Now that the facebook furore has died down a bit and the HSE continues to enforce ridiculous illegal terms upon all doctors who are not consultants, do people really care?

The local hospital has 1 in 3 call in place in some specialities. That means 90 hours a week approx. On both of the 30+ hour shifts those docs will get about 4 hours sleep tops, and have screaming patients abusing them or consultants mocking their efforts.

It is the hardest job in the world really. Having seen a couple of different professional industries before going back as a mature, i think this is safe to say.
.... And only 3% of all docs will ever make consultancy, and that takes about 12 yrs and a few of those years overseas with no guaranteees of anything.

Thank you

I am not sure it is the 'most hard job'. I do agree the hours for junior doctors are ridiculous, particularly as they risk patient health. You have to remember though, public attitude to doctors is still reasonable and job security is still excellent. You may question this but actually they have more choice and security available to them in the big scheme of things then nearly all other professions.

dissed doc wrote: »

Starting salary is 30k (net €877/fortnight). What's so well paid about it?

Consultants get zero protection and are expected to be on duty 24/7 if necessary without compensation.

30k is a fine starting salary. If you work in science you may get half of that. They also work horrible hours but have far less job security. Considering how rapidly the medical pay scale increases, medicine is actually a good deal if your not shy of hard graft. Don't get me wrong, medics deserve a high salary but if we are to alleviate the excessive hours junior doctors face a decrease in salary and an increase in working conditions is needed. Look at what medics earn in continental Europe.

Dr Nic

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like doctors really are vilified. Im not sure why as they have very rarely gone on strike and dont even have an organised union.

As regards pay. (im not really trying to get into this issue, more about the unavoidable lifestyle) The starting salary of 30k is comparable to what i started on as an engineering graduate many moons ago. Increments upto 60k over 4-5yrs is also comparable to other industries that i have seen. I've never worked in scinece, so cant say anything about them earning only 15k per year.

So thats all i can say about the salary. It is ridiculously lucrative for the fat cats on the old contracts, but that is a tiny percentage. For the rest, its the same as industries i have seen.

What is different is that if i ****ed up in my engineering job, no one died and noone cared really. Also i wasnt available for 36 hours in a row to my customer, who could abuse me if he wanted and i didnt have to put on a smiley face for all those hours. I went home at 5pm and basically lived a normal life. You cant do that in the hospital. And you dont have the option to not do 36 hours. Your career is over if you attempt it... Its an awful catch 22 situation. And the people you are trying to treat, also really dislike you it seems...


Thanks for the feedback and apologies if i have offended anyone

Play To Kill

Dr Nic wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like doctors really are vilified. Im not sure why as they have very rarely gone on strike and dont even have an organised union.

As regards pay. (im not really trying to get into this issue, more about the unavoidable lifestyle) The starting salary of 30k is comparable to what i started on as an engineering graduate many moons ago. Increments upto 60k over 4-5yrs is also comparable to other industries that i have seen. I've never worked in scinece, so cant say anything about them earning only 15k per year.

So thats all i can say about the salary. It is ridiculously lucrative for the fat cats on the old contracts, but that is a tiny percentage. For the rest, its the same as industries i have seen.

What is different is that if i ****ed up in my engineering job, no one died and noone cared really. Also i wasnt available for 36 hours in a row to my customer, who could abuse me if he wanted and i didnt have to put on a smiley face for all those hours. I went home at 5pm and basically lived a normal life. You cant do that in the hospital. And you dont have the option to not do 36 hours. Your career is over if you attempt it... Its an awful catch 22 situation. And the people you are trying to treat, also really dislike you it seems...


Thanks for the feedback and apologies if i have offended anyone

You have the option to not be a doctor if you feel that way about it. Were you not aware of the working conditions and responsibilities you would have before you choose that profession?

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

You cannot in one post say you work 90 hours and then say you only get paid 30k. This is the stupid statements that loose doctors support. Junior doctors are extremely well paid. Don't try to pretend otherwise it makes a no sense of the argument. 90 hours is a hell if a lot to work but you are paid a hell if a lot for it.

Why not quote the salary a 4th year specialist reg gets for working 90 hours a week?

Salary starts at 30k out of college. If you are doing 90 hrs a week you get paid (relatively poorly - at most 1.5x the hourly rate) for doing the two work weeks of a normal person. The overtime isn't by choice, it's mandatory, and the employer frequently doesn't pay.

That is the salary, go check it with the HSE if you don't believe me. A doctor starts at 30k/year. There are no allowances. You will be expected to do 2-3 weeks work at once (70-100+ hours/week) allt he time, and be unpaid for a considerable amount of those hours, even though they are mandatory.

A 4th year specialist registrar (considerably experienced, around 10 years out of university) is on around €66k (the scale is from €60,404 at point 1 to €76,062 at point 7). That is the salary for the job, like it or not. Now if you are doing two jobs, and doing 90hrs/week, you are going to be paid a lot, but it's doing two jobs remember. The salary is 66k, after 10 years out of college.

Scales are here: http://www.radiology.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HSE-NCHD-Terms-Conditions.pdf

- it's a 39hr week for those salaries. Your hours are determined by the HSE and can be on any 5 days of the week including weekend days (not overtime, therefore).

cast_iron

beeno67 wrote: »

The thread is about the excessive hours doctors work. There is no point then saying what they get paid for the first 39. How much does a registrar get for a 90 hour week? This is a reasonable question. Why not just answer it. Pick a first year reg if you want. If you say they are poorly paid, fair enough, let us see the pay and then decide.

Well for a start, I don't know. But I don't doubt they are well paid for it. If anyone does a 90 hour week on Sunday and shift premium, they would get well paid. I'm not sure why you want to single out doctors for having to do these hours.

You should point out that the basic pay for a first year reg which may be a person 3 years qualified is about €50,000 before any overtime. A senior reg with more experience can get a basic of 80k

So after 10 years of study and work, they are on €50k basic. I'm not sure what the big deal is there?

robp wrote: »

30k is a fine starting salary. If you work in science you may get half of that.

And some sectors start at near €40k. So what? The jobs aren't comparable.

Dr Nic wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like doctors really are vilified. Im not sure why as they have very rarely gone on strike and dont even have an organised union.

Quite simply because they are fairly well paid on a take home amount. And people have to pay to use them directly and therefore directly see the €55 for 10 minutes or even more for consultants. Unlike nurses and Gardai who are paid by "someone else", and certainly not paid as much. None of that is a comment on whether the pay is deserved or not....just how it's perceived by the public.

Dr Nic

Play To Kill wrote: »

You have the option to not be a doctor if you feel that way about it. Were you not aware of the working conditions and responsibilities you would have before you choose that profession?

No-one is aware of the working conditions.
The words '90 hour work week' do not convey the horrors accurately enough.

I am lucky in that i 'may' have an industry to fall back upon, that is if i ever get a job in it again. But 1000s of docs have no other option. Our best and brightest young minds are tarred with a brush of being greedy, forced to work illegal hours that they are not paid for and the public hates them for it...
Its sad

cast_iron

Dr Nic wrote: »

I am lucky in that i 'may' have an industry to fall back upon, that is if i ever get a job in it again. But 1000s of docs have no other option. Our best and brightest young minds are tarred with a brush of being greedy, forced to work illegal hours that they are not paid for and the public hates them for it...
Its sad

Fully agree. And those same brightest are off high tailing it to other countries for far better working conditions and salaries. A consultant earns in the region of $350k in Canada for example.

Dr Nic

I am not talking about GPs or consultants. Just a normal hospital doctor or non consultant surgeon working in the hse.

You may assume that working for 90 hours would be well paid, but the HSE tippex out hours on your timesheet and consultants dont sign off on overtime hours. You never get paid for it.
And what good is getting paid for 90 hours? If you sleep 8 hours a day and work 90 hours a week that leaves <20 hours in the week to yourself. When do you spend the money you are not getting paid?

Dr Nic

cast_iron wrote: »

Fully agree. And those same brightest are off high tailing it to other countries for far better working conditions and salaries. A consultant earns in the region of $350k in Canada for example.

Have you any idea how hard it is to get into Canada as a doc?

beeno67

dissed doc wrote: »

Salary starts at 30k out of college. If you are doing 90 hrs a week you get paid (relatively poorly - at most 1.5x the hourly rate) for doing the two work weeks of a normal person. The overtime isn't by choice, it's mandatory, and the employer frequently doesn't pay.

That is the salary, go check it with the HSE if you don't believe me. A doctor starts at 30k/year. There are no allowances. You will be expected to do 2-3 weeks work at once (70-100+ hours/week) allt he time, and be unpaid for a considerable amount of those hours, even though they are mandatory.

So take a 1st year reg which would be a doctor 3 years qualified. Basic 50k. Then another 50 hours overtime at 1.5 times means after 3 years, if you are doing 90 hours a week you would earn about €150,000. I suppose you should make it clear that the starting salary refers to the new reduced rate and that most junior doctors are not doing 90 hours a week so most junior doctors are not earning €150,000 a year

grid_locked

junior docs are underpaid compared to nurses and guards when you consder the hours they work

consultants and gp,s are the second wealthiest in the world after america and are completley sheltered , especially gp,s

gp,s and consultants made a descision years ago to pull up the drawbridge on their younger colleagues who drown below in the junior doc ranks , the junior ranks must want to publically criticise their consultant betters but for political reasons cant

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

The thread is about the excessive hours doctors work. There is no point then saying what they get paid for the first 39. How much does a registrar get for a 90 hour week? This is a reasonable question. Why not just answer it. Pick a first year reg if you want. If you say they are poorly paid, fair enough, let us see the pay and then decide.
You should point out that the basic pay for a first year reg which may be a person 3 years qualified is about €50,000 before any overtime. A senior reg with more experience can get a basic of 80k

The basic salary if for the 39hr/week jobs. You are focussing more on the big €€€ number in overall salary+overtime received, and I think have little concept of actually working 90hrs/week. It's important to look at the basic wage and hourly rate. If someone in any industry does 90hrs they will make a lot.

SO for someone doing 40-50hrs a week they see doctors as overpaid but ignore that the doctor is doing double the hours - thus makes more. The doctor can't reduce those hours, they are determined (by contract) by the HSE.

cast_iron

Dr Nic wrote: »

I am not talking about GPs or consultants. Just a normal hospital doctor or non consultant surgeon working in the hse.

The public don't differentiate between them.

You may assume that working for 90 hours would be well paid, but the HSE tippex out hours on your timesheet and consultants dont sign off on overtime hours. You never get paid for it.

I've heard that that is far more common now than it used to be alright. Again, that doesn't get about as news that much.

And what good is getting paid for 90 hours? If you sleep 8 hours a day and work 90 hours a week that leaves <20 hours in the week to yourself. When do you spend the money you are not getting paid?

The only thing I can say to that is "what did you expect?". It's not a secret that doctors have been doing these hours for years.

That's not to take from how hard it is having to do that. Having a family and all that is very difficult in such circumstances.

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

So take a 1st year reg which would be a doctor 3 years qualified. Basic 50k. Then another 50 hours overtime at 1.5 times means after 3 years, if you are doing 90 hours a week you would earn about €150,000. I suppose you should make it clear that the starting salary refers to the new reduced rate and that most junior doctors are not doing 90 hours a week so most junior doctors are not earning €150,000 a year

Yeah a first year Registrar (point 1) is on €50,578 for a 39hr week, that can be any hours on any of the 7 days as determined by the HSE. They are also rostered by the HSE to work (the doctor is obligated by contract) outside and in excess of those hours as per the roster of the hospital.

Registrar is usually 4 years after graduation. 1st year intern, the SHO 1, SHO 2, then maybe a research or teaching year or two, so usually at least 4, years after graduating. The exact number obviously is a percentage of the original number that graduated, so many will have failed the exams to progress (common), gone to do GP schemes or left medicine entirely.

beeno67

dissed doc wrote: »

The basic salary if for the 39hr/week jobs. You are focussing more on the big €€€ number in overall salary+overtime received, and I think have little concept of actually working 90hrs/week. It's important to look at the basic wage and hourly rate. If someone in any industry does 90hrs they will make a lot.

SO for someone doing 40-50hrs a week they see doctors as overpaid but ignore that the doctor is doing double the hours - thus makes more. The doctor can't reduce those hours, they are determined (by contract) by the HSE.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Did you quote the wrong post? All the figures in the post of mine you quoted refer to basic salary excluding overtime.

dissed doc

grid_locked wrote: »

consultants and gp,s are the second wealthiest in the world after america and are completley sheltered , especially gp,s

gp,s and consultants made a descision years ago to pull up the drawbridge on their younger colleagues who drown below in the junior doc ranks , the junior ranks must want to publically criticise their consultant betters but for political reasons cant

Not sure where this comes from. Salaries in Ireland for specialist consultants are lower than all of western europe (incl. UK), north america or aus/nz. This is why the HSE is struggling to recruit for vacant consultant posts.

dahamsta

Personally, I think junior doctor's hours and pay are completely separate issues from the perspective of "the lives of doctors"; which is ultimately a health issue, theirs and ours, and doesn't even belong in this forum. And yes, i do care about their health, and how it impacts upon me. A person /that/ tired can't give their best, and i don't want anything but the best when it comes to my health, or the health of my family.

Again though, that's completely OT for this forum.

grid_locked

dissed doc wrote: »

Not sure where this comes from. Salaries in Ireland for specialist consultants are lower than all of western europe (incl. UK), north america or aus/nz. This is why the HSE is struggling to recruit for vacant consultant posts.

oh please , consultants in ireland earn double what their counterparts in the uk and germany earn and as for new zealand , a nurse in ireland would earn more than a consultant there, wages in new zealand are lower than in italy

robp

Dr Nic wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like doctors really are vilified. Im not sure why as they have very rarely gone on strike and dont even have an organised union.

As regards pay. (im not really trying to get into this issue, more about the unavoidable lifestyle) The starting salary of 30k is comparable to what i started on as an engineering graduate many moons ago. Increments upto 60k over 4-5yrs is also comparable to other industries that i have seen. I've never worked in scinece, so cant say anything about them earning only 15k per year.

So thats all i can say about the salary. It is ridiculously lucrative for the fat cats on the old contracts, but that is a tiny percentage. For the rest, its the same as industries i have seen.

What is different is that if i ****ed up in my engineering job, no one died and noone cared really. Also i wasnt available for 36 hours in a row to my customer, who could abuse me if he wanted and i didnt have to put on a smiley face for all those hours. I went home at 5pm and basically lived a normal life. You cant do that in the hospital. And you dont have the option to not do 36 hours. Your career is over if you attempt it... Its an awful catch 22 situation. And the people you are trying to treat, also really dislike you it seems...


Thanks for the feedback and apologies if i have offended anyone

60k over 4-5yrs is not an average in any Irish profession I know. Every profession has the high end well paid positions but averages are typically a lot lower. That is the compensation for risk.

Regards having a good work life balance. More and more jobs are like this. academic jobs are a prime example, as is what self employed people often endure.

By the way do you have the source that only 3% make it to consultancy level? I am interested in how it is calculated.

Lastly doctors are in no way vilified by the general public, but those with a passion for economics like the posters here recognise the privileged position of the profession as a whole and are slow to empathise.

cast_iron

Dr Nic wrote: »

Have you any idea how hard it is to get into Canada as a doc?

All doctors will do some training abroad. This is where the opportunity arises to stay there or come home to poorer salaries and conditions.

dissed doc wrote: »

Not sure where this comes from. Salaries in Ireland for specialist consultants are lower than all of western europe (incl. UK), north america or aus/nz. This is why the HSE is struggling to recruit for vacant consultant posts.

Fully agree. The UK and Germany allow private practice on top of the public work, something that is now restricted here.

The Irish doctors are going/staying away and being replaced with doctors of a lesser standard but willing to do the same job. The biggest losers will be the patients.

RGS

Tired junior (NCHD) doctors are a risk to patients. The salary received wont save a patient if the doctor makes a mistake due to having worked excessive hours in a stressful job.

They should not be expected to work these hours.

cast_iron

grid_locked wrote: »

oh please , consultants in ireland earn double what their counterparts in the uk and germany earn and as for new zealand , a nurse in ireland would earn more than a consultant there, wages in new zealand are lower than in italy

This is nonsense. For a start they work far less hours. Secondly, they can work privately but that is restricted here now. Thirdly, our cost of living is higher here. In China, manufacturing jobs are paid $2 a day. Here it's about €120. The point being they don't compare.

In Canada, consultants are paid about $350k. In the US, its $400k+. Not that they are valid reasons to increase the wages here to that level, no more than reduced them to levels of other countries.

robp

cast_iron wrote: »

All doctors will do some training abroad. This is where the opportunity arises to stay there or come home to poorer salaries and conditions.

Fully agree. The UK and Germany allow private practice on top of the public work, something that is now restricted here.

The Irish doctors are going/staying away and being replaced with doctors of a lesser standard but willing to do the same job. The biggest losers will be the patients.

Many many very affluent countries pay a lot less than Ireland. Cuts implemented since this graph was made does not change that.

In Canada, consultants are paid about $350k. In the US, its $400k+. Not that they are valid reasons to increase the wages here to that level, no more than reduced them to levels of other countries.

That is not an average though, so it is meaningless. Averages range hugely, from about 422k to 120k Euro.

UCDVet

Most people are going to be unable to sympathize with anyone who is better off than them in a particular context.

It doesn't matter what effort goes in to being a doctor or how selective the process to become one or whether or not they are getting a fair deal - so long as they earn more than most people, nobody is going to care. Doctors will care, people in the industry might care....but ultimately, the public doesn't care. The public cares about the services they can get for X euro.

strandroad

Dr Nic wrote: »

I am not talking about GPs or consultants. Just a normal hospital doctor or non consultant surgeon working in the hse.

As a member of the public I don't really differentiate between them. Between HSE, private insurance fees and GP fees there are massive funds available to the healthcare sector and I agree that facts are pointing to the issue that some within it are worked much harder and possibly exploited but I see it as an internal issue. I would certainly support a campaign asking for HSE redesign to fairly support the work of junior doctors but AFAIK there is no shortage of funds in absolute terms, as % of GDP etc. so I'm not sure what's the point of appealing to the public as opposed to appealing to the department, HSE management etc.?

Bertie Woot

Dr Nic wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like doctors really are vilified. Im not sure why as they have very rarely gone on strike and dont even have an organised union.

As regards pay. (im not really trying to get into this issue, more about the unavoidable lifestyle) The starting salary of 30k is comparable to what i started on as an engineering graduate many moons ago. Increments upto 60k over 4-5yrs is also comparable to other industries that i have seen. I've never worked in scinece, so cant say anything about them earning only 15k per year.

So thats all i can say about the salary. It is ridiculously lucrative for the fat cats on the old contracts, but that is a tiny percentage. For the rest, its the same as industries i have seen.

What is different is that if i ****ed up in my engineering job, no one died and noone cared really. Also i wasnt available for 36 hours in a row to my customer, who could abuse me if he wanted and i didnt have to put on a smiley face for all those hours. I went home at 5pm and basically lived a normal life. You cant do that in the hospital. And you dont have the option to not do 36 hours. Your career is over if you attempt it... Its an awful catch 22 situation. And the people you are trying to treat, also really dislike you it seems...


Thanks for the feedback and apologies if i have offended anyone

You haven't offended me, but by not addressing the issue of doctor's bullying their patients, which I raised in post #20, you have made it blatantly obvious that this is an issue which you are aware of, but do not want to address.

Pessimist

I care about the long shifts they are expected to do, namely because it impacts on patient wellbeing and big mistakes being made. I hate dealing with junior doctors in hospitals because (in my personal experience) they never seem to listen, know what they're doing and appear too rushed. I know this is a mixture of bad luck on my part, inexperience of the doctors and poor/long working conditions. I wonder if their hours were shorter and their case load a bit lighter, would this make a big difference.

I don't begrudge consultant fees that I've had to pay as I really find their expertise and manner worth the cost. GPs seem to have a fairly cushy life though!

Dr Nic

Bertie Woot wrote: »

You haven't offended me, but by not addressing the issue of doctor's bullying their patients, which I raised in post #20, you have made it blatantly obvious that this is an issue which you are aware of, but do not want to address.

I honestly have never seen a doctor bully or even be rude to a patient. A dude in A&E urinated on a doc last week, and nothing was said. A drunk dude who called the docs a crowd of pakkie k&&nts, still had his eye stitched up meticuluously. These are one-off events i know and illustrate my biased side nicely, but are the main things i can recall.

I am sorry if you've had that experience, but it is not common in my limited experience

The vast majority of patients are lovely as are their docs. There are a few bad eggs everywhere though

strandroad

Dr Nic wrote: »

I honestly have never seen a doctor bully or even be rude to a patient.

I had a hospital doc tell me that health checks are unnecessary as they only cause stress (in the context of breast self-examination, breast cancer etc). He also made a comment based on my nationality.
Left me scratching my head for days.