Manchester United vs Real Madrid Match Thread. 5/3/2013 K.O 19.45

Fuzzy_Dunlop

eagle eye wrote: »

There were two pretty controversial incidents tonight.

As I said earlier when I seen the Nani one I thought to myself he could get a red there, not certain he would but knew he was deffo getting a card and thought it could be red.

The other one was Lopez punching Vidic. In that one I thought he got the ball the first time I seen it. Its clear he didn't get near the ball and if he had gotten the red card there you really couldn't complain although you rarely see a keeper get sent off in a situation like that.

In fairness there was also the disallowed goal and the hand ball from Rafael.

kryogen

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Fair enough but I don't agree. Honestly, is there much of a difference between the Ronaldo to Madrid and the Berbatov to Man Utd deals?

Yes, Ronaldo has always dreamed of playing for Madrid, he also has a clear career path, he won everything in England, he wants to win everything in Spain and he also wants to rock up in Italy and do the same there, he wants his name to be on the first page of the greatest of all time. For this to happen he must play for the greatest clubs.

He has played for the greatest English club, he has now played for the greatest Spanish club and I would wager his next move will be Italy, either to Juve or Milan.

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

Those players are at their dream club, they don't want to leave. What is it you don't get?
If Messi's dream was to play for AC Milan he wouldn't be signing massive long contacts with Barcelona and would get his way one way or the other.

Sorry mate but I don't believe in that nonsense. Wasn't Van Persie an Arsenal fan? His dream surely couldn't have been betraying his boyhood club? Anyway this entire argument really is semantics and really rather pointless.

At the end of the day the game changer was in the Madrid kit tonight. Man Utd's current star player missed quite a few chances over two legs and never had the effect on a game that a really great player should and that's a big reason why Madrid are through and Man Utd are not.

Will I Amnt

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Sorry mate but I don't believe in that nonsense. Wasn't Van Persie an Arsenal fan? His dream surely couldn't have been betraying his boyhood club? Anyway this entire argument really is semantics and really rather pointless.

At the end of the day the game changer was in the Madrid kit tonight. Man Utd's current star player missed quite a few chances over two legs and never had the effect on a game that a really great player should and that's a big reason why Madrid are through and Man Utd are not.

And if Messi has another game like he did in the first leg against Milan?
Sh*t happens, get over it.
When you take away Messi and Ronaldo, RvP is right up there with the best of the rest frontmen in the game.

El Horseboxo

Mushy wrote: »

Upon impact its different.

Yes it is and it follows that course of motion. To a point. Then there is a clear non natural extension that engages in a pushing motion. Upon impact the leg reclines due to the shift of momentum. Any extension is voluntary. I'm not speaking on intent or whether he meant a kick at the end. I'm talking about the ref's view and how he could interpret it. The extension of the leg could have been perceived as a kick.

fullstop

cambo2008 wrote: »

I never said it was
Read my post and the one I was replying to before taking it upon yourself to assume what I'm getting at.

I had already read that post. He was saying what Nani did was dangerous regardless of whether he made contact with his head or not. The Iniesta one is not the same thing.

secman

Gutted , don't think it was a red card . The old old story, when you don't take your chances, over the 2 legs we had enough chances to win the tie . Was always going to be a tight one and so it proved. Just a pity ye are talking about the poxy ref !

Roll on title no. 20

Secman

Turtwig

Jaysus, we'd really need Adam and Jamie and Buster to test this whole "leg extension" theory.

On another note, why isn't anyone discussing how Utd totally lost their shape and let Madrid control the game. With ten men you'd have expected their counter attacking threat to be less, but defensively you'd still have expected them remain solid and hard to break down. They fell to pieces!

Will I Amnt

fullstop wrote: »

I had already read that post. He was saying what Nani did was dangerous regardless of whether he made contact with his head or not. The Iniesta one is not the same thing.

The poster I was replying to said Nani would have taken his head off IF Arbeloa went in with his head while he was trying to take the ball down under control. The same could be said of the Iniesta one IF the opposing player put his head in there. It's up to the referee to use common sense.

riffmongous

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Head height me arse. Since when is Arbeloa's head on his hip ffs?

Are you blind? Take a look at where Arbeloa's feet are when he gets hit then come back to me

kryogen

Jernal wrote: »

Jaysus, we'd really need Adam and Jamie and Buster to test this whole "leg extension" theory.

On another note, why isn't anyone discussing how Utd totally lost their shape and let Madrid control the game. With ten men you'd have expected their counter attacking threat to be less, but defensively you'd still have expected them remain solid and hard to break down. They fell to pieces!

Welbeck was no longer able to cover Alonso allowing him to get time to pick his passes, the introduction of Modric was a masterstroke here also I would have thought was plainly obvious to anyone watching the game.

Great tactical move by Jose and with ten men it was never going to be possible to keep them out and control them like we had been doing with eleven

To be fair, they didnt really lose their shape anyway, it was a lapse by Carrick (his starting position being too deep and then selling himself) to allow Modric to shoot and it was one hell of a shot, cant legislate for that once it leaves his boot, then when the team were still reeling there was some beautiful interplay by Higuain and Modric that created a flash across the box with was poked in.

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

And if Messi has another game like he did in the first leg against Milan?
Sh*t happens, get over it.
When you take away Messi and Ronaldo, RvP is right up there with the best of the rest frontmen in the game.

But isn't that the brilliance of Messi? He very rarely has really poor games. btw I think Barcelona will overcome Milan at the Camp Nou and win the competition.
That's really down to personal opinion. I've never been a huge fan of Van Persie and I've never really seen what all of the hype is about. I absolutely accept that he is a very good player but for me there are better players out there who I'd have ahead of him. Obviously all of these players play different roles but in terms of a "first names on a fantasy dream team" type thing I'd have these ahead of him:

Xavi Hernandez
Andres Iniesta
Mesut Ozil
Xabi Alonso
Sergio Ramos
Radamel Falcao
Ibrahimovic
Reus
Schweinsteiger
Ribery
Pirlo
Suarez
Aguero

and there are probably others but its 12:38 at night and I'm tired and I'm going to bed.

PurpleSt4in

I think it's important to clarify that I'm a complete neutral. How often are we left talking about a referee at the end of huge footballing spectacles instead of the actual game itself, it's sad that this happens so much. Never a red card. Anyone saying so has never played a game in their life or is incredibly bitter towards United/in Keano's case thrives off controversy. Nani goes to control the ball and only sees Arbeloa at the last second, physically impossible to pull out at that stage. A telling factor is that not one Madrid player went to appeal to the ref for a card as happens so often. Ruined the spectacle for me.

ANYWAY, to the actual football. Madrid's keeper had me unsure at the start but was outstanding. Modric's goal was hardly mentioned at all in post-match analysis, unstoppable strike and was pleased to see him get on the score sheet. Thought RVP didn't seem right tonight. And of course who else would step up to provide the winner! Ronaldo handled himself well throughout the two legs, serious admiration for the man. Disappointed not to see a Fergie press conference.

fullstop

cambo2008 wrote: »

The poster I was replying to said Nani would have taken his head off IF Arbeloa went in with his head while he was trying to take the ball down under control. The same could be said of the Iniesta one IF the opposing player put his head in there. It's up to the referee to use common sense.

No, no he wouldn't. Iniesta didn't run and then jump through the air. He was stepping back quite slowly.

Will I Amnt

Andersonisgod wrote: »

But isn't that the brilliance of Messi? He very rarely has really poor games. btw I think Barcelona will overcome Milan at the Camp Nou and win the competition.
That's really down to personal opinion. I've never been a huge fan of Van Persie and I've never really seen what all of the hype is about. I absolutely accept that he is a very good player but for me there are better players out there who I'd have ahead of him. Obviously all of these players play different roles but in terms of a "first names on a fantasy dream team" type thing I'd have these ahead of him:

Xavi Hernandez
Andres Iniesta
Mesut Ozil
Xabi Alonso
Sergio Ramos
Radamel Falcao
Ibrahimovic
Reus
Schweinsteiger
Ribery
Pirlo
Suarez
Aguero

and there are probably others but its 12:38 at night and I'm tired and I'm going to bed.

Yea, you really need some sleep in fairness, you're obviously not thinking straight. Bit silly even mentioning all those midfielders.

IvySlayer

Andersonisgod wrote: »

But isn't that the brilliance of Messi? He very rarely has really poor games. btw I think Barcelona will overcome Milan at the Camp Nou and win the competition.
That's really down to personal opinion. I've never been a huge fan of Van Persie and I've never really seen what all of the hype is about. I absolutely accept that he is a very good player but for me there are better players out there who I'd have ahead of him. Obviously all of these players play different roles but in terms of a "first names on a fantasy dream team" type thing I'd have these ahead of him:

Xavi Hernandez
Andres Iniesta
Mesut Ozil
Xabi Alonso
Sergio Ramos
Radamel Falcao
Ibrahimovic
Reus
Schweinsteiger
Ribery
Pirlo
Suarez
Aguero

and there are probably others but its 12:38 at night and I'm tired and I'm going to bed.

Suarez ahead of RVP, I've heard it all.

kryogen

IvySlayer wrote: »

Suarez ahead of RVP, I've heard it all.

Didnt get past Reus myself, no idea why the likes of Ramos, Xavi Schwein etc are even on the bloody list

Will I Amnt

kryogen wrote: »

Didnt get past Reus myself, no idea why the likes of Ramos, Xavi Schwein etc are even on the bloody list

I'm shocked Buffon or Casillas isn't there :pac:

kryogen

cambo2008 wrote: »

I'm shocked Buffon or Casillas isn't there :pac:

Thought Varane would have made the list too after his performances over the two legs

fullstop

IvySlayer wrote: »

Suarez ahead of RVP, I've heard it all.

Much as I hate Suarez, he's the league's top scorer playing for the team in 7th place. He has 2 more goals than RVP and Liverpool have scored 15 goals less than United, so it's not that ridiculous.

kryogen

fullstop wrote: »

Much as I hate Suarez, he's the league's top scorer playing for the team in 7th place. He has 2 more goals than RVP and Liverpool have scored 15 goals less than United, so it's not that ridiculous.

So Berbas record can be shot at because he scored plenty of goals against the bottom teams (when he was league top scorer) but Suarez hattricks etc against them are sacred?

There is not much in the two strikers this season, but in terms of class I would have given the edge to RVP, whether he was Arsenal or whoever, takes nothing away from Suarez ability

Suarez has padded his stats out so to speak on weak opposition and has scored against less teams the RVP this season, someone already had this debate and rolled out stats and figures and it was clear that RVP is having a better season, however marginal it is, of course until he pulls ahead in the goalscorer league again people can have their say I guess

ColeTrain

fullstop wrote: »

Much as I hate Suarez, he's the league's top scorer playing for the team in 7th place. He has 2 more goals than RVP and Liverpool have scored 15 goals less than United, so it's not that ridiculous.

Also his injury record is a lot cleaner than RVPs.

Turtwig

kryogen wrote: »

Welbeck was no longer able to cover Alonso allowing him to get time to pick his passes, the introduction of Modric was a masterstroke here also I would have thought was plainly obvious to anyone watching the game.

Great tactical move by Jose and with ten men it was never going to be possible to keep them out and control them like we had been doing with eleven

To be fair, they didnt really lose their shape anyway, it was a lapse by Carrick (his starting position being too deep and then selling himself) to allow Modric to shoot and it was one hell of a shot, cant legislate for that once it leaves his boot, then when the team were still reeling there was some beautiful interplay by Higuain and Modric that created a flash across the box with was poked in.

It wasn't really a great tactical move, it was the obvious move. Why Fergie didn't make a similiar substitution is beyond me: were Wellbeck, Giggs and RVP really necessary, especially when you have the scoreline in your favour. Once United went down to ten Madrid seemed to dominate Midfield. That's a tactical failure on Ferguson's part (not as bad as 2011 UCL final, but bad) or a performance error by the players. 10 players could still have shut down that space and made it very difficult.

Modrics goal was well taken, but even before it came you could see that United were capitulating.

monkey9

IvySlayer wrote: »

Suarez ahead of RVP, I've heard it all.

Ha!! Suarez being the one player you predictably pick out from that list.

fullstop

kryogen wrote: »

So Berbas record can be shot at because he scored plenty of goals against the bottom teams (when he was league top scorer) but Suarez hattricks etc against them are sacred?

What has Berbatov got to do with it? Did I mention him or anything about bottom teams? Christ, talk about getting defensive :rolleyes:

Winston Payne

Jernal wrote: »

It wasn't really a great tactical move, it was the obvious move. Why Fergie didn't make a similiar substitution is beyond me: were Wellbeck, Giggs and RVP really necessary, especially when you have the scoreline in your favour. Once United went down to ten Madrid seemed to dominate Midfield. That's a tactical failure on Ferguson's part (not as bad as 2011 UCL final, but bad) or a performance error by the players. 10 players could still have shut down that space and made it very difficult.

Modrics goal was well taken, but even before it came you could see that United were capitulating.

United's subs tonight:

Lindegaard, Evans, Valencia, Young, Kagawa, Rooney, Hernandez


SAF had nobody on the bench that he could have brought on to affect the game in the middle of the park. Anderson failed his audition on Saturday and Jones was injured. I'd have hauled off Giggs immmediately and brought on Kagawa to make us a little sharper on the break but our options were limited. Jones being out ended up being pretty crucial, if he hadn't been starting already he'd certainly have been brought on then.

Brain Stroking

Were Liverpool playing tonight?

Ps Andersonisgod talks some rubbish

kryogen

fullstop wrote: »

What has Berbatov got to do with it? Did I mention him or anything about bottom teams? Christ, talk about getting defensive :rolleyes:

K I'll dumb it down for you, na, whats the point.

This obviously gets points across better :rolleyes:

Pro. F

SeantheMan wrote: »

Apparently "intent" is irrelevant. They were checking the rules on ITV. If it was dangerous etc is all that matters.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/28/law12-en.pdf

The laws of the game are complete shambles, full of inconsistencies and contradictions. Nearly every tackle could be described as "endangering the safety of an opponent" and so deserve reds under that description. To describe what Nani did as using "excessive force or brutality" though is daft.

The paragraph describing what is deemed as "reckless" gives a far better description of what Nani did:

“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the
danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
• A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned

So the ref got it wrong, but these things happen. The referee only has a moment to decide and is under too much pressure to think straight. It is stupid that anybody would expect referees to get these types of decisions right any way consistently.

Rafael got away with a handball on the line as well, so it sort of evened itself out in this game.

PhlegmyMoses

Reality: United were the best team over two legs. They were the best team in each 90 minute leg. Nani should not have been sent off. A mental refereeing decision ruined a fantastic game. Hopefully a league and couple double will follow.

fullstop

kryogen wrote: »

K I'll dumb it down for you, na, whats the point.

This obviously gets points across better :rolleyes:

Top debating there, well done. Bringing Berbatov into the argument, FFS.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

Rafael got away with a handball on the line as well, so it sort of evened itself out in this game.

Absolutely incorrect. The whole shape of the game had changed at this point. Anything that happened after the sending off is alternate reality stuff.

kryogen

fullstop wrote: »

Top debating there, well done. Bringing Berbatov into the argument, FFS.

Continuing to prove to me why your not worth spoon feeding information to, you also have a strange grasp on the definition of "debating"

Oh almost forgot :rolleyes:

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Absolutely incorrect. The whole shape of the game had changed at this point. Anything that happened after the sending off is alternate reality stuff.

Oh did the Rafael thing happen after the sending off? I've gotten myself confused. Yeah, if that's the case then that's not even at all.

fullstop

kryogen wrote: »

Continuing to prove to me why your not worth spoon feeding information to, you also have a strange grasp on the definition of "debating"

Oh almost forgot :rolleyes:

You brought Berbatov into the equation. For what reason? Or is that question too complex for you?

PhlegmyMoses

Colonialboy wrote: »

UTD complaining about a refereeing decision.... is it Christmas time again or something.
Showed their true class-less character with all that carry on from an ex-England captain at the end.
So thats what its like to get a referee who isnt in the Fergie fan club and doesnt like being chased around the pitch by fellas in red shirts after every decision.

Same for Fergie more class-less carry on not fulfilling his media requirements.

So now when you see your kids playing football, diving like Ashley young, berating refs like rio and acting dis-respectful like Fergie ... you know where it comes from...

football was the big winner tonight.. oh that and my accumulator..

Post a pic of your accumulator.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Absolutely incorrect. The whole shape of the game had changed at this point. Anything that happened after the sending off is alternate reality stuff.

What about the Madrid goal that was wrongly disallowed in the first half.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh did the Rafael thing happen after the sending off? I've gotten myself confused. Yeah, if that's the case then that's not even at all.

It did. We were under the cosh after the players lost the plot over the sending off.

I think the criticism of Fergie's decision making after the red card is entirely unwarranted. His game plan was spot on, nailed on to get the win. We could all see that from the first 10 mins. How can you legislate for what happened? It was a crazy situation. I still can't get my head around why the ref did it. No pressure, no malice in the game, no need.

kryogen

fullstop wrote: »

You brought Berbatov into the equation. For what reason? Or is that question too complex for you?

Are you seriously telling me you don't get the relevance of what I was trying to say?

This is going nowhere fast, I refuse to spoon feed a child who is playing dumb.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

What about the Madrid goal that was wrongly disallowed in the first half.

The one where a player elbowed another player in the back of the head and then the player that put it in was offside? All your work is ahead of you on this one, but I'm excited to see what lengths you are willing to go to Niallo. Your arguments have been interesting in the past.

fullstop

kryogen wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me you don't get the relevance of what I was trying to say?

This is going nowhere fast, I refuse to spoon feed a child who is playing dumb.

It has nothing to do with whether Suarez or Van Persie is the better player. And don't call me a ****ing child when you're the one behaving like a spoiled child because your team lost :rolleyes: You called a poster an idiot a couple of pages back too I noticed, before you ninja edited.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The one where a player elbowed another player in the back of the head and then the player that put it in was offside? All your work is ahead of you on this one, but I'm excited to see what lengths you are willing to go to Niallo. Your arguments have been interesting in the past.

Ah come on you know yourself that was a very very soft free kick. There was no elbow in the back of the head. If you think that warrants a free kick you must have though the nani incident was assault. There was no flag either to my knowledge.

kryogen

Ninja edit? terribly sorry old chum but that never happened!

That poster was posting ****e, what else would I do but call it what it was?

Ha, Id love to know how Im like a spoilt child cause my team lost, was it possibly when I offered my congratulations to Madrid, or maybe when I wished them well for the rest of the competition? No it was when I said I was proud of the team, that was it right?

Oh wait :rolleyes:

niallo27

Suarez has scored against city, arsenal, Everton and Chelsea and has spurs at anfield anfield this week so you can't say they have all been weak opposition.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

Ah come on you know yourself that was a very very soft free kick. There was no elbow in the back of the head. If you think that warrants a free kick you must have though the nani incident was assault. There was no flag either to my knowledge.

The "goalscorer" was offside. There was a foul. I completely disagree with your assessment and I;'m baffled as to why this would be the major injustice that you are focusing on. You saw the red card, right?

kryogen

niallo27 wrote: »

Suarez has scored against city, arsenal, Everton and Chelsea and has spurs at anfield anfield this week so you can't say they have all been weak opposition.

They certainly have not and I never would, he is having one hell of a season

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The "goalscorer" was offside. There was a foul. I completely disagree with your assessment and I;'m baffled as to why this would be the major injustice that you are focusing on. You saw the red card, right?

He wasn't flagged offside. It was a normal challenge you see in the air from every cross. Would it really kill you to admit that maybe utd got lucky there. The world won't end don't worry.

Mr.Nice Guy

Fascinating evening of football. Some thoughts...

I thought the red was harsh. Compared to De Jong on Alonso in the WC Final they were on different planets totally and on that occasion Webb tried to keep it 11 vs 11. After the game he was even praised by Blatter for his efforts if I recall correctly. I think the ref in the United/Madrid game should have also tried to keep alive what was up to that point a fascinating duel. I thought Didi Hamann made a good point on Sky when he said normally Madrid players surround a ref to try and get a player sent off yet after Nani went up for the ball none of them were looking for a red.

Mourinho's comments after the game surprised me. To say the best team lost is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. I feel the red changed the dynamic of the game entirely and up to that point I felt Fergie's tactics were working a treat, but I thought it was rather evenly poised.

Lopez played very well. Townsend very quickly changed his tune from dismissing him in the first half to praising him by the game's end. Modric was a big difference when he came on. His goal was top class. Ronaldo was quiet but he still had an influence. Welbeck was a lot better than I expected. Giggs also. Van Persie seemed to lack a bit of sharpness around goal.

As for Keano - he's a legend and my favourite player but this beef with Fergie is really eating away at him. He doesn't seem to give a toss about the harm he's doing to his legacy. He's great entertainment value - and there's no one else quite like him for bluntness on British TV coverage that's for sure - but I thought his opinions on the red were not quite his true thoughts and were tinged with a desire to have a pop at Ferguson.

fullstop

kryogen wrote: »

Ninja edit? terribly sorry old chum but that never happened!

That poster was posting ****e, what else would I do but call it what it was?

Ha, Id love to know how Im like a spoilt child cause my team lost, was it possibly when I offered my congratulations to Madrid, or maybe when I wished them well for the rest of the competition? No it was when I said I was proud of the team, that was it right?

Oh wait :rolleyes:

You replied to Argossy2006' video with "Idiot". And then deleted the post.

Go back and have a look at your posts about the ref, which is also against the charter. No point in talking to you anymore, go and have a nice sleep and maybe you'll have calmed down in the morning, there's a good lad

fullstop

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The "goalscorer" was offside. There was a foul. I completely disagree with your assessment and I;'m baffled as to why this would be the major injustice that you are focusing on. You saw the red card, right?

It's irrelevant where the goalscorer was because it was RVP who headed the ball into his path.