Manchester United vs Real Madrid Match Thread. 5/3/2013 K.O 19.45

Morzadec

cambo2008 wrote: »

I just find it funny that the very same people up in arms over Shelvey getting a red card for a tackle on Evans have suddenly jumped to the other side of the fence on how the letter of the law should be applied.

And also how the word of Roy Keane is gospel all of a sudden to people who wouldn't give him the time of day up until now.

Yep but how many United fans sat back and laughed at the Shelvey red and dismissed Liverpool's fans claims? It works both ways.

I've been consistent about both incidents - bad calls that severely impacted on the result of each match.

Really disappointed that a great match last night was ruined and that we were deprived what surely would have been a tense and dramatic finale.

But can't help feeling a sense of schandenfraude towards those United fans who defended the Shelvey decision or wound up Liverpool fans after that match.

As someone mentioned earlier, these incidents filter out the bitter, deluded fans who can't even snatch a glimpse of objectivity through the cloud of their bias, and the more reasonable fans who will try to look at things as objectively as possible and call things as they are.

And as SlickRic has mentioned you can find both types amongst every fanbase - neither is unique to a single club.

Renn

Wouldn't be the first time Nani did something idiotic like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XpEoCvW2Wo

_Puma_

First post in the Soccer thread and what a controversial issue.

My take on it is the ref was entitled to send him off but he didn't show any discretion. In my book and most other peoples it was a yellow but not in the refs for whatever reason. Perhaps it happened so fast and at an angle that he could not see correctly. I also wonder did the linesman have a word with him while Arbeloa was down.

Definitely turned the tide of the game, I honestly think though that United were still in it even after Madrid's second goal. One goal and it's squeaky bum time for Madrid.

Morzadec

SantryRed wrote: »

After watching it a second time I firmly believe this. It actually makes him look guilty of meaning it or at least knowing it was bad. Not that it was a red anyways.

I don't know if it affected the refs decision. But I do think Nani knew what he was doing. I thought when I saw it initially 'Nani could be in trouble here' and when I saw him on the floor I knew exactly what he was doing - pretending it was a 50/50 collision and that he too was hurt. So Nani too knew he could be in trouble I feel.

Just to clarify I still don't think that makes it a red. But I do think Nani knew he had put himself in a dangerous position, and perhaps his attempted deception of the ref did impact his decision - after all would an innocent man hide?

Perhaps an immediate hand up and checking if Arbeloa was ok might have served him better. We'll never know.

fullstop

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Im not going to repeat what everyone has already said but against the text in bold I'll put it to you like this:

David DeGea made a big lunge on Saturday to prevent a wayward Jonny Evans backpass going out of play. It would have involved him raising his foot the same height off the ground as Nani. Should DeGea have been sent off because he didnt look behind him to see if Grant Holt was coming?

How would Grant Holt be behind him? He'd have to be sitting on the advertising boards scratching his hole with where DeGea went for that ball.

Morzadec

_Puma_ wrote: »

First post in the Soccer thread and what a controversial issue.

My take on it is the ref was entitled to send him off but he didn't show any discretion. In my book and most other peoples it was a yellow but not in the refs for whatever reason. Perhaps it happened so fast and at an angle that he could not see correctly. I also wonder did the linesman have a word with him while Arbeloa was down.

Definitely turned the tide of the game, I honestly think though that United were still in it even after Madrid's second goal. One goal and it's squeaky bum time for Madrid.

I think this is a pretty balanced view of the situation and both extremes of the debate should have a look at it in the cold light of day.

Only thing I kind of disagree with is that United were still in it. It was a mammoth task needing 2 goals with 10 men. For me I lost interest once Ronaldo scored. Felt like game over (although I admit I was slightly wrong, United managed to create a few good chances.)

Morzadec

Renn wrote: »

Wouldn't be the first time Nani did something idiotic like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XpEoCvW2Wo

Wow interesting... To be honest it makes me question how innocent Nani was in this.

To be it still looks very accidental. Only Nani will know if he knew Arbeloa was there, or if he stuck his leg in with a bit of force after. But the parallels (pretending he was hurt) with that incident are very interesting indeed...

LuckyLloyd

In many respects, the ref applied the letter of the law. The current rules regarding 'dangerous play' are a ****ing joke and ire from fans should be firmly placed in that direction.

Kompany shouldn't have been sent off against Utd
Shelvey shouldn't have been sent off against Utd
Nani shouldn't have been sent off against Madrid

They are all symptoms of the same rubbish from the rulemakers.

The_Kew_Tour

The more I see of the Red Card the more I understand why Ref gave it.

I think what might have actually swung it for the ref was Nani going down funny enough.

Its just my theory so I could be 100% wrong, but I dont think Nani went with any intention to hurt Madrid player, but once he caught him he knew he may be in trouble and went down easy hoping to make the ref think he was a victim of bad challenge himself.

JimsAlterEgo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In many respects, the ref applied the letter of the law. The current rules regarding 'dangerous play' are a ****ing joke and ire from fans should be firmly placed in that direction.

Kompany shouldn't have been sent off against Utd
Shelvey shouldn't have been sent off against Utd
Nani shouldn't have been sent off against Madrid

They are all symptoms of the same rubbish from the rulemakers.

what about all scissors and bicycle kicks?

Quazzie

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

what about all scissors and bicycle kicks?

It's possible to do both these whilst being in total awareness of where players are around you. The Bergkamp picture posted earlier is a perfect example of where a player can go high to win a ball whilst doing it safely and no chance of committing a foul.

Giruilla

A high foot has always been a yellow card. Nani was a millisecond from controlling the ball beautifully (in the same style of bergkamps soon to be unveiled new statue) - but Arbeloa came in from the side out of his vision. It's dangerous but clearly zero intent. Theres a difference between a player raising his foot into someone else and someone else coming into the path of his foot.

Yet again a referee shows himself to be a big time charlie and destroys the biggest game of the season. Football is becoming an embarrassment with these decisions.

Keane has always been my favourite player, but I just feel sorry for him now. I think he's gone a bit crazy since retiring.

Adamcp898

Still sickened. What could have been a great night and a defining one for this team completely ruined by a referee.

upandcumming

niallo27 wrote: »

You wrong there in fairness. The ball was in the net before the whistle was blown. There was no time to give up. You have gone from saying it was offside to the players giving up.

I've kept quiet while reading these earlier posts and this is complete shite. The ref had blown the whistle long before Higuain put it in, you're blind and an idiot if you can't see it. Here is a pic of the ref with his hand up before Higuain touches the ball.


I really don't think it was a red. Regardless of genuine attempt and no intention, he was simply trying to control the ball. It wasn't a tackle or a challenge. And people talking about two feet off the ground and similar shite should be banned from enjoying football. I don't know how anyone can stomach Keane. What a dose.

Vyse

2567wq

Cienciano

Giruilla wrote: »

What annoys me most is I'd been looking forward to United coming up against Barca or Real to see how they fair over two legs for so long. I was really enjoying just watching Uniteds set up and how well disciplined their positioning was.. welbeck marking alonso out of the game.. giggs doubling up to track ronaldo.. happy to allow real have position with their centre backs.. was an incredible spectacle. If Real had of scored 2 goals and won I would have been happy to have just seen such a good game...

.. then that c*nt ref ruined it.

Don't blame the ref, the only person to blame for Nani's sending off is Nani

Morzadec

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

what about all scissors and bicycle kicks?

Or punches for that matter. Diego Lopez took out Vidic with flying fists. By the same logic he should have gone.

Or this one from Diaby - just a standing volley:

I think the referee has to use discretion and common sense.

To me, and to 90% of the people I've been listening to, Nani had eyes only for the ball and it was a complete accident.

There's a difference between reckless and dangerous by doing something stupid - but all these examples (Nani's included imo) are players just doing what are accepted as natural movements on the pitch.

Football is a physical, fast-paced games and there will inevitably be accidents. That's what I feel Nani's high foot was.

Though I really think his attempted conning of the ref did him absolutely no favours and plants a seed of doubt in my mind about how innocent he was, especially considering he has history of this kind of deception when he is in the wrong (see Renn's video above).

Giruilla

Cienciano wrote: »

Don't blame the ref, the only person to blame for Nani's sending off is Nani

No thanks, I think I will blame the referee for making an incorrect decision.

"ohh but Nani shouldn't have given him the opportunity" - response <- get f*cked

Mont

Real won, plain and simple. Utd scored one goal themselves against a dodgy defense over 180 mins. Personally i didnt think it was a red but how many decisions have went Utd's way in OT over the years so fans complaining about the referee are hypocritical. 2 CL in Fergies career doesnt look great in fairness.

Chucky the tree

I think the red card situation brings up an interesting issue. Should players not have to be wary of the harm there challenges can cause? If Arbeola decided to try and head the ball he gets a pretty strong kick in the head. Someone said natural movement, there is nothing really natural about jumping a few feet off the ground and doing something like you'd see in a karate kid movie.

PhlegmyMoses

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think the red card situation brings up an interesting issue. Should players not have to be wary of the harm there challenges can cause? If Arbeola decided to try and head the ball he gets a pretty strong kick in the head. Someone said natural movement, there is nothing really natural about jumping a few feet off the ground and doing something like you'd see in a karate kid movie.

If we were to enforce the law that everyone has been hiding behind we'd barely get through a match. The Real goalie would have been sent off for punching Vidic in the face, players would be sent off for bicycle kicks, clashing heads when contesting headers etc.

Good read on F365 from their resident ref:

http://www.football365.com/ref365/8543296/Ref365

Julez

Mont wrote: »

2 CL in Fergies career doesnt look great in fairness.

12 Premier League titles, 5 FA cups, 4 league cups, 10 FA Charity Shields, one UEFA Cup Winners' Cup, one UEFA Super Cup, one Intercontinental Cup and one FIFA Club World Cup on top of that doesn't look too bad though. :rolleyes:

eyescreamcone

When i saw the Nani incident I thought - this could be red.
The commentators totally played it down but what do they know.
If you kick someone at that height there is a good chance of getting a red card.
In the Premiership there is slightly more leeway than in the CL.
Also, the top euro refs are not afraid to be blacklisted by Mr. Ferguson as per in England - but that's a side issue.

The facts are Nani's leg was very high, strong contact was made - you're in what they call orange territory then.
So there should not be too many complaints about Nani's sending off.

Fergie to my mind got caught out playing defensively.
ManU went out with a defensive mindframe - effectively playing for the 0-0.
This is, or never was, the ManU style.
Fergie was afraid maybe?

Brian Kerr made a good point on TV3 - that ManU collapsed after the red card.
Top teams will dig in and fight to hold on to their lead.
Think of Chelsea v Barca last year or Inter v Barca in 2010
ManU seemed to have their excuse to lose.
The magnificent defensive displays from earlier in the season were missing last night.

And as for Mr. Ferguson's petulant display after the card - someone compared him to the Kuwaiti Sheikh at the 1982 World Cup

His panic and dissapointment at this moment obviously crept on to the pitch.
His reaction allowed his players to say "Even the gaffer thinks we're being robbed - it's not our fault if we lose so".

Big shout out for Ronaldo - he did what superstars should do, score when needed (and in a classy way - not gloating either)

Chucky the tree

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

If we were to enforce the law that everyone has been hiding behind we'd barely get through a match. The Real goalie would have been sent off for punching Vidic in the face, players would be sent off for bicycle kicks, clashing heads when contesting headers etc.

Good read on F365 from their resident ref:

http://www.football365.com/ref365/8543296/Ref365

Should a goalie have free regin to do whatever he likes in the box? What if he decided to do a WWF style drop kick when clearing the ball? The ref enforced the law with his interuptation, it just happens most British and Irish UK fan hates it. Contesting headers is perfectly natural part of the game though, as I said before just a few feet off the ground and kicking at head height is not.

PhlegmyMoses

"Blacklisted by Mr. Ferguson"

"Orange Territory"

Jesus wept.

Also, United were not playing for a 0-0. The wanted contain Madrid and hit them on the break. Counter attacking has always been United's style.

The_Kew_Tour

Mont wrote: »

Real won, plain and simple. Utd scored one goal themselves against a dodgy defense over 180 mins. Personally i didnt think it was a red but how many decisions have went Utd's way in OT over the years so fans complaining about the referee are hypocritical. 2 CL in Fergies career doesnt look great in fairness.

I have heard it all now.

Lennonist

Roy Keane is getting pelters for saying the ref got the red card decision right. By the letter of the law, the ref was within his rights to give the judgement he did. Although a yellow card could've been the right call, the decision to give red was not the most outrageous decision I've seen, and the indignant reaction of Ferguson and Man United players to the decision was completely over the top.

Ferguson was going around throwing his hands up and riling the crowd like Billy Bingham. Giggs started doing the same thing. They were still 1 up at the time, and they were at home. If they stayed calm they could have set themselves up to defend in numbers and frustrate Real Madrid. Instead of that they completely lost their cool, threw the toys out of the pram and handed the game to Real in a fit of rage. Very unprofessional reaction from Ferguson and United it has to be said.

The_Kew_Tour

Lennonist wrote: »

Ferguson was going around throwing his hands up and riling the crowd like feckin Billy Bingham.

:pac::pac::pac:

seriously wtf???

This is comedy central.

PhlegmyMoses

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Should a goalie have free regin to do whatever he likes in the box? What if he decided to do a WWF style drop kick when clearing the ball? The ref enforced the law with his interuptation, it just happens most British and Irish UK fan hates it. Contesting headers is perfectly natural part of the game though, as I said before just a few feet off the ground and kicking at head height is not.

Did you read the article? It pretty much backs up what LuckyLloyd has said above. It is impossible to employ that law throughout football.

Nobody would have complained with a yellow card for Nani, not even fans in countries outside of UK and Ireland. That says it all about what happened last night.

Giruilla

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Fergie to my mind got caught out playing defensively.
ManU went out with a defensive mindframe - effectively playing for the 0-0.
This is, or never was, the ManU style.
Fergie was afraid maybe?

Started RVP, Welbeck, Giggs, Cleverly and Nani... 1-0 up before red card. Thats getting caught out playing defensively :mad:???

Vanolder

Ex top referee, Graham Poll, has stated that the ref had a fantatic game last night and got his decision spot on. Hard to argue with someone with such credentials when it comes to such issues.

eyescreamcone

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

"Blacklisted by Mr. Ferguson"

"Orange Territory"

Jesus wept.

Also, United were not playing for a 0-0. The wanted contain Madrid and hit them on the break. Counter attacking has always been United's style.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

And if Jesus wept...he was in good company at Old Trafford last night with Mr. Ferguson and the fans (including those who left early in droves)

Chucky the tree

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Did you read the article? It pretty much backs up what LuckyLloyd has said above. It is impossible to employ that law throughout football.

Nobody would have complained with a yellow card for Nani, not even fans in countries outside of UK and Ireland. That says it all about what happened last night.

No I didn't read the article. I find it strange how De Jongs tackle at the word cup was the a nailed on red card by everyone, even Webb admitted he got it wrong, yet the Nani one is a terrible decision.

sfwcork

I personally think red was harsh but I can kind of see why the ref would give it

Why did nani go down fter he made the contact when there wa zero contact on him? Did he intend to fake an injury to change the refs decision?

Mushy

Vanolder wrote: »

Ex top referee, Graham Poll, has stated that the ref had a fantatic game last night and got his decision spot on. Hard to argue with someone with such credentials when it comes to such issues.

Sarcasm I hope?

monkey9

This is all thoroughly enjoyable.

Lennonist

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

seriously wtf???

This is comedy central.

Don't you remember that World Cup qualifier between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland when Billy Bingham was going around to the crowd throwing his hands up and riling them? Fergie reminded me of that last night. His initial apoplectic reaction to the card was hilarious, I thought he was going to combust and burst into flames.

eyescreamcone

Giruilla wrote: »

Started RVP, Welbeck, Giggs, Cleverly and Nani... 1-0 up before red card. Thats getting caught out playing defensively :mad:???

United parked the bus last night.
4-5-1 at home
Often had 10 behind the ball in the first half.
They hoped to pick Real off on set pieces or counter attacks.

They were LUCKY to score the goal they got.

I've seen ManU go for the jugular at home in the past.
Certainly not last night.
Mr. Ferguson was being tactical against his better maybe.

Cienciano

Giruilla wrote: »

No thanks, I think I will blame the referee for making an incorrect decision.

"ohh but Nani shouldn't have given him the opportunity" - response <- get f*cked

Well, when the opportunity nani gave him was kung fu kicking an opponent, its sort of important.

Vanolder

Mushy wrote: »

Sarcasm I hope?

Huh??

Giruilla

eyescreamcone wrote: »

United parked the bus last night.
4-5-1 at home
Often had 10 behind the ball in the first half.
They hoped to pick Real off on set pieces or counter attacks.

They were LUCKY to score the goal they got.

I've seen ManU go for the jugular at home in the past.
Certainly not last night.
Mr. Ferguson was being tactical against his better maybe.

You're words were "got caught out playing defensively".. what are you on about

eyescreamcone

Giruilla wrote: »

You're words were "got caught out playing defensively".. what are you on about

Playing defensively and losing... when a more attacking approach (which he has used at home in Europe to good effect) might have been the better option.

cournioni

Morzadec wrote: »

Or punches for that matter. Diego Lopez took out Vidic with flying fists. By the same logic he should have gone.

Or this one from Diaby - just a standing volley:

I think the referee has to use discretion and common sense.

To me, and to 90% of the people I've been listening to, Nani had eyes only for the ball and it was a complete accident.

There's a difference between reckless and dangerous by doing something stupid - but all these examples (Nani's included imo) are players just doing what are accepted as natural movements on the pitch.

Football is a physical, fast-paced games and there will inevitably be accidents. That's what I feel Nani's high foot was.

Though I really think his attempted conning of the ref did him absolutely no favours and plants a seed of doubt in my mind about how innocent he was, especially considering he has history of this kind of deception when he is in the wrong (see Renn's video above).

Absolutely spot on there.

PhlegmyMoses

Vanolder wrote: »

Huh??

Pretty much everyone discounts Graham Poll at this stage. He'll almost always back the ref and he has become a bit of a joke since he retired.

The_Kew_Tour

Lennonist wrote: »

Don't you remember that World Cup qualifier between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland when Billy Bingham was going around to the crowd throwing his hands up and riling them? Fergie reminded me of that last night. His initial apoplectic reaction to the card was hilarious, I thought he was going to combust and burst into flames.

I have seen Lennon do it too.

So can I say lennon is like Bingham? That will go down well wont it?;)

Giruilla

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Playing defensively and losing... when a more attacking approach (which he has used at home in Europe to good effect) might have been the better option.

At what point exactly did Utd play "defensively"? They started two strikers and three attacking midfielders.

I'm guessing in your opinion Utd should have left 3 men up the pitch against arguably the greatest attacking side in Europe.

Redzer7

Very happy with the result
That is all...

FutureGuy

eyescreamcone wrote: »

United parked the bus last night.
4-5-1 at home
Often had 10 behind the ball in the first half.
They hoped to pick Real off on set pieces or counter attacks.

They were LUCKY to score the goal they got.

I've seen ManU go for the jugular at home in the past.
Certainly not last night.
Mr. Ferguson was being tactical against his better maybe.

Saying that United played with 10 behind the ball is absolutely laughable and shows me your understanding of the situaltion is quite low.

Regardless of that, what would YOU do against the best counterattacking side in World football. How would you set your team up? I'll page SAF to read your reply.

SantryRed

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Playing defensively and losing... when a more attacking approach (which he has used at home in Europe to good effect) might have been the better option.

United would have been murdered if they had have gone for the jugular last night. Real Madrid are the best team in the world for their counter attacking.

eyescreamcone

Giruilla wrote: »

At what point exactly did Utd play "defensively"? They started two strikers and three attacking midfielders.

I'm guessing in your opinion Utd should have left 3 men up the pitch against arguably the greatest attacking side in Europe.

At times they hardly had 1 up - with the rest camped at the edge of their own box.