Manchester United vs Real Madrid Match Thread. 5/3/2013 K.O 19.45

Xavi6

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Pretty much everyone discounts Graham Poll at this stage. He'll almost always back the ref and he has become a bit of a joke since he retired.

Only since?

Handsome Bob

eyescreamcone wrote: »

United parked the bus last night.
4-5-1 at home
Often had 10 behind the ball in the first half.
They hoped to pick Real off on set pieces or counter attacks.

They were LUCKY to score the goal they got.

I've seen ManU go for the jugular at home in the past.
Certainly not last night.
Mr. Ferguson was being tactical against his better maybe.

It looked to me that they were going for the jugular once they scored, the sending out quickly ended that though.

At 10 men against Real Madrid it was always going to be difficult, it wasn't exactly a situation they could go gun ho in until Real scored their second.

eyescreamcone

FutureGuy wrote: »

Saying that United played with 10 behind the ball is absolutely laughable and shows me your understanding of the situaltion is quite low.

Regardless of that, what would YOU do against the best counterattacking side in World football. How would you set your team up? I'll page SAF to read your reply.

Mr. Ferguson's tactics didn't work over the 2 ties (they are out!) - to lose playing defensively must gall him.

roanoke

Apropos of nothing and proving/disproving nothing really, as well as Nani/Gerrard/Terry/Cahill/Balotelli, Cüneyt Çakır was also the ref who sent off Keith Andrews in Euro 2012. He also sent off two England U21 players in the 2009 quals/tournament.

He's sent off 12 players to date in various international games. Eight played in the English leagues. Of the other four, two were in a single game almost seven years ago during his first international season.

http://www.worldfootball.net/schiedsrichter_profil/cueneyt-cakir/1/1/

PhlegmyMoses

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Mr. Ferguson's tactics didn't work over the 2 ties (they are out!) - to lose playing defensively must gall him.

Very simplistic way of looking at it and I'm wondering about your motivation. Also why are you calling him Mr. Ferguson? Weird.

Old_-_School

It seems to be about 50:50 regarding those agreeing and disagreeing with the red card.
I wonder though, during that minute between the foul and the red card being produced what were people thinking was the fairest action?

Kirby

eyescreamcone wrote: »

At times they hardly had 1 up - with the rest camped at the edge of their own box.

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Mr. Ferguson's tactics didn't work over the 2 ties (they are out!) - to lose playing defensively must gall him.

There is a difference between parking the bus and have a defensively solidly plan to deal with each opposition player. They weren't "camped on the edge of their own box". They defended from the halfway line as a team. Not as ten individuals lined up on the 18 yards line. His tactics were bloody spot on that tie. Real are the better team and yet they were made to look inferior.

It should have been a yellow for a high foot. That would have been the common sense option and I would have backed united to go through.

I thought United played really well last night and were the better team for an hour before the red. I was always of the thinking that Fergie is overated in a tactical sense, I've seen him get it wrong on so many occassions. But last night was a tactical victory for United. Whether it was fergie himself or a combination of his coaching staff I'm not sure. But either way, they deserved the win. And I'm not a United fan. I just call it how I see it.

Cienciano

Anyone who says man-u played defensively are on a wind up. They were the better team in the first half, they made madrid look very ordinary. And don't forget, it was madrid that needed to score. Really wasn't till the second half sending off that Madrid got going.

Old_-_School wrote: »

It seems to be about 50:50 regarding those agreeing and disagreeing with the red card.
I wonder though, during that minute between the foul and the red card being produced what were people thinking was the fairest action?

I thought it wasn't a red, but when I saw the replays I thought there couldn't be any arguments. Surprised to see so much outrage over it. It wasn't exactly a Thierry Henry handball. It wasn't Barca Chelsea 2008 (or whenever they were denied all those penos). The ref was well within his rights to give it.

PhlegmyMoses

Old_-_School wrote: »

It seems to be about 50:50 regarding those agreeing and disagreeing with the red card.
I wonder though, during that minute between the foul and the red card being produced what were people thinking was the fairest action?

It'll be United fans and a few neutrals who disagree and people who don't like United who agree.

The fairest way of looking at it is this: If that happened to say, Suarez if you're a Liverpool fan, Giroud as an Arsenal fan, Hazard as a Chelsea fan etc etc, how would you view it? That should tell you how contentious a decision it was. People hiding behind the laws should just look at the challenge again and ask themselves if they'd feel hard done by had it been one of their players.

ricero

How classless and poor was it from ferdinand sarcasticly clapping in the refs face last night after the game. Regardless of the refs decision there is no need for him to do this and this should be stamped out of the game with immediate action. The ref should of booked him.

The_Kew_Tour

ricero wrote: »

How classless and poor was it from ferdinand sarcasticly clapping in the refs face last night after the game. Regardless of the refs decision there is no need for him to do this and this should be stamped out of the game with immediate action. The ref should of booked him.

It was stupid alright.

FutureGuy

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Mr. Ferguson's tactics didn't work over the 2 ties (they are out!) - to lose playing defensively must gall him.

Haha, you proved my point. It seems to be that you are commenting on a topic that you have no idea about.

Giruilla

ricero wrote: »

How classless and poor was it from ferdinand sarcasticly clapping in the refs face last night after the game. Regardless of the refs decision there is no need for him to do this and this should be stamped out of the game with immediate action. The ref should of booked him.

I bet Keane would have done worse..

Johnny Utah

Lennonist wrote: »

Roy Keane is getting pelters for saying the ref got the red card decision right. By the letter of the law, the ref was within his rights to give the judgement he did. Although a yellow card could've been the right call, the decision to give red was not the most outrageous decision I've seen, and the indignant reaction of Ferguson and Man United players to the decision was completely over the top.

Ferguson was going around throwing his hands up and riling the crowd like Billy Bingham. Giggs started doing the same thing. They were still 1 up at the time, and they were at home. If they stayed calm they could have set themselves up to defend in numbers and frustrate Real Madrid. Instead of that they completely lost their cool, threw the toys out of the pram and handed the game to Real in a fit of rage. Very unprofessional reaction from Ferguson and United it has to be said.

Well said buddy, most sensible post on the whole thread. :cool:

Johnny Utah

Kirby wrote: »

There is a difference between parking the bus and have a defensively solidly plan to deal with each opposition player. They weren't "camped on the edge of their own box". They defended from the halfway line as a team. Not as ten individuals lined up on the 18 yards line. His tactics were bloody spot on that tie. Real are the better team and yet they were made to look inferior.


I thought United played really well last night and were the better team for an hour before the red. I was always of the thinking that Fergie is overated in a tactical sense, I've seen him get it wrong on so many occassions. But last night was a tactical victory for United. Whether it was fergie himself or a combination of his coaching staff I'm not sure. But either way, they deserved the win. And I'm not a United fan. I just call it how I see it.

LOL, were you watching the same game mate? :rolleyes:

Better team over both legs went through! Get over it!

Also, Fergie had no plan B. Tactically, he actually got it wrong last night.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It'll be United fans and a few neutrals who disagree and people who don't like United who agree.

The fairest way of looking at it is this: If that happened to say, Suarez if you're a Liverpool fan, Giroud as an Arsenal fan, Hazard as a Chelsea fan etc etc, how would you view it? That should tell you how contentious a decision it was. People hiding behind the laws should just look at the challenge again and ask themselves if they'd feel hard done by had it been one of their players.

One utd fan above you said he can see why it was a red. Your coming across very bitter here but keep posting it's funny.

Cienciano

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It'll be United fans and a few neutrals who disagree and people who don't like United who agree.

The fairest way of looking at it is this: If that happened to say, Suarez if you're a Liverpool fan, Giroud as an Arsenal fan, Hazard as a Chelsea fan etc etc, how would you view it? That should tell you how contentious a decision it was. People hiding behind the laws should just look at the challenge again and ask themselves if they'd feel hard done by had it been one of their players.

Look at it another way. Can you see why the ref send him off? Bearing in mind intent, looking at the ball, not meaning to do it is all irrelavent when it comes to the rules. Nani didn't get the ball, he got the man with a studs in challange.
It could have been a yellow, but just saying that it's not as bad a decision as people are making out. There's more argument for it to be a red card than for it not to be one.

Xavi6

niallo27 wrote: »

One utd fan above you said he can see why it was a red. Your coming across very bitter here but keep posting it's funny.

And I'm far from pro-United/a neutral yet I think it was bad decision.

It's not the exact science it's being made out to be.

FutureGuy

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Mr. Ferguson's tactics didn't work over the 2 ties (they are out!) - to lose playing defensively must gall him.

Ah just read some of your other posts in the soccer forum. Explains your "Mr" Ferguson and your comments on the matter in general. Pop back over to your Liverpool thread mate. Plenty of Liverpool fans earned my respect last night, even berating posters with "views" similar to your own.

I know you had a great auld night in Istanbul almost a decade ago (since you were in attendance), but you seem to be more fixated on Manchester United than Liverpool, going by the number of posts relating to United.

eyescreamcone

FutureGuy wrote: »

Haha, you proved my point. It seems to be that you are commenting on a topic that you have no idea about.

You're entitled to your opinion too.
I don't agree with yours though.

You have made a few references over your last few posts regarding my football knowledge ...without knowing anything about me.

Not as petty as Mr. Ferguson or Rio but still quite petty.

FutureGuy

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion too.
I don't agree with yours though.

You have made a few references over your last few posts regarding my football knowledge ...without knowing anything about me.

Not as petty as Mr. Ferguson or Rio but still quite petty.

You are stating that united played with 10 men behind the ball and that United had their tactics wrong. That makes me believe that you have a poor knowledge of tactics that were employed last night. I think anyone that watched the game knows United tactics were spot on.

The_Kew_Tour

FutureGuy wrote: »

You are stating that united played with 10 men behind the ball and that United had their tactics wrong. That makes me believe that you have a poor knowledge of tactics that were employed last night. I think anyone that watched the game knows United tactics were spot on.

Fergie got tactics spot on.

Some are just trying to get under peoples skin.

Dont get sucked in.

Will I Amnt

Who let the RAWK out..who...who...who...honk!!

Mr Ferguson?? Lol, how cute.

eyescreamcone

FutureGuy wrote: »

You are stating that united played with 10 men behind the ball and that United had their tactics wrong. That makes me believe that you have a poor knowledge of tactics that were employed last night. I think anyone that watched the game knows United tactics were spot on.

Mr. Ferguson, is that you?

niallo27

Xavi6 wrote: »

And I'm far from pro-United/a neutral yet I think it was bad decision.

It's not the exact science it's being made out to be.

Yes I agree. It's a tough desicion to call. Red was harsh in my opinion, but anyone that's hold the opinion that they though it should have been a red it being berated here and more or less called a fool.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Counter attacking has always been United's style.

Playing positive attacking football has traditionally been United's style since Busby promoted it at the club so much. Defending deep and relying on counter attacks is not positive attacking football so no, counter attacking on it's own has not always been United's style.

United played defensively last night because Fergie knew that his team couldn't dominate possession as well as Madrid. The fact that he sent out a team with two strikers and two wingers doesn't change that fact, defensive teams do that all the time. The fact that United used counter attacks doesn't change that fact, in fact that's a hallmark of defensive football. The fact that in the first leg and before the sending off last night United looked to be getting somewhere with this defensive counter attacking style doesn't change the fact that it was defensive football that United were playing.

Giruilla

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Better team over both legs went through!

That may have been but unfortunately we'll never got to know that due to a subclass referee.

eyescreamcone

Giruilla wrote: »

That may have been but unfortunately we'll never got to know that due to a subclass referee.

That would not be the opinion of UEFA, due to the amount of top games this referee continues to get.

SantryRed

cambo2008 wrote: »

Who let the RAWK out..who...who...who...honk!!

Mr Ferguson?? Lol, how cute.

You're as bad.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

One utd fan above you said he can see why it was a red. Your coming across very bitter here but keep posting it's funny.

I'll openly admit I'm bitter about that decision. It's not as though I'm hiding it. The schadenfreude in here is great too. It's all you've left really.

Will I Amnt

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That would not be the opinion of UEFA, due to the amount of top games this referee continues to get.

Let me bend your ear for a second.
Just to get an idea how objectionable you are.

What is the proper sanction for this incident?
Similar to last night in the fact that neither were tackles but both ended up connecting with an opposing player.

Will I Amnt

SantryRed wrote: »

You're as bad.

Nah, I just find that stuff hilarious and meet it with the type of comment it deserves.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'll openly admit I'm bitter about that decision. It's not as though I'm hiding it. The schadenfreude in here is great too. It's all you've left really.

It's only been a few posters in fairness. What do you expect though. A hell of a lot of utd posters in here are very bad winners so you have to expect some comeback when it goes wrong.

The_Kew_Tour

Can we not make this a Liverpool v United crap?

No need to show other incidents.

Essien

SAF's tactics were spot on in both legs, but they were defensive, or at least counter attacking, there's no doubt about that. It's always a risk do try defend such a narrow edge over 2 games but they almost got away with it, and can consider themselves unlucky not to. It's similar to Chelsea vs Barca/Bayern last year, had they gone out attacking with all guns blazing they could well have been crucified.

My 2c - Uniteds tactics were spot on and executed perfectly.

SantryRed

This Liverpool vs. Man United bollocks needs to be banned. Ruins this board and it's the reason why a lot of the decent posters post less and less.

sfwcork

Im assuming this has been mentioned before on this thread

Eboue's sending off against utd in 08

exact same..Fergie came out afterwards and said the ref was correct

is that not exactly the same???

PhlegmyMoses

Cienciano wrote: »

Look at it another way. Can you see why the ref send him off? Bearing in mind intent, looking at the ball, not meaning to do it is all irrelavent when it comes to the rules. Nani didn't get the ball, he got the man with a studs in challange.
It could have been a yellow, but just saying that it's not as bad a decision as people are making out. There's more argument for it to be a red card than for it not to be one.

I disagree with this and have made my point countless times in this thread as to why. Hiding behind the laws of the game on this one belies the fact that it should not have been a red. The laws are there to be interpreted by the ref so they are malleable, particularly this law, and subjective. Anyone can use them to make a case for anything. I'll show you:

Crouch should have been sent off at the weekend for knocking Taylor out with a bicycle kick, if we are to be applying the laws in the same way as they were applied last night. He was unaware that the man was there and only had eyes for the ball but by the letter of the law, his attempt at striking the ball would constitute reckless endangerment - he did knock Taylor out cold after all - so he should have seen red. Letter of the law. No bicycle kicks anymore lads. Everyone was screaming for a red there, right? Oh wait, they weren't.

For me, it was a never a red in the context of that incident and the over-officious ref made a horrible call.

Will I Amnt

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Can we not make this a Liverpool v United crap?

No need to show other incidents.

I'm asking a question of someone, there's been plenty of comparisons made throughout this thread.

Lennonist

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I have seen Lennon do it too.

So can I say lennon is like Bingham? That will go down well wont it?;)

Lenny was captain for Norn Iron in his playing days so on the international field he was on the same side as Billy Bingham. Bingham to be fair had a great record as Norn Iron boss in the '80's.

Anyhoo Lenny's a young fella in the managerial game, old man Fergie should have seen it all by now not to be overreacting to a decision like the one last night - which although harsh on the face of it was actually debateable. Of course Fergie's used to generally getting things his own way with the refs and the media in England.

I think the point to be made about last night was that when Ferguson threw the toys out of the pram, his team lost concentration as well and from a winning position in the game capitulated to Real Madrid. Poor show from Ferguson and Man United in their reaction to the red card decision.

Old_-_School

Roy Keane got great publicity out of this. Every media source seems to be quoting him today.
Gareth Southgate was made look very meek by Keane.
Southgate really annoyed me by constantly referring to Modric coming on for Ozil in his analysis, it was Arbeloa that was subbed for Modric. Modric for Ozil wouldn't make sense for a team with a man advantage and needing 1 goal to level, 2 to win.

The_Kew_Tour

cambo2008 wrote: »

I'm asking a question of someone, there's been plenty of comparisons made throughout this thread.

I wasnt trying to single you out.

Just I think if we go down that road it just get closed for the people who want to discuss the game. Thats all I am saying.

adox

sfwcork wrote: »

Im assuming this has been mentioned before on this thread

Eboue's sending off against utd in 08

exact same..Fergie came out afterwards and said the ref was correct

is that not exactly the same???

No.

PhlegmyMoses

sfwcork wrote: »

Im assuming this has been mentioned before on this thread

Eboue's sending off against utd in 08

exact same..Fergie came out afterwards and said the ref was correct

is that not exactly the same???

It wasn't the exact same at all though. Eboue was contesting a header and stuck his boot in. He was not attempting to control the ball with his foot. Nani was attempting to control the ball like this:

sfwcork

how is it not the same Adox?

SlickRic

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Also, Fergie had no plan B. Tactically, he actually got it wrong last night.

i found last night hilarious, just to re-iterate.

but how in the name of fúck did Ferguson get it wrong? you'll need an explanation for that. he completely schooled Mourinho up until the sending off.

Ferguson, along with his team, panicked, while Mourinho went for the jugular - taking off a fullback, putting on Modric, and catching Utd on the hop, scoring two clinical goals.

brilliant from Mourinho.

but Ferguson's only fault was his slightly slow reaction, and even then, it took Real at their best to get the 2 goals they needed in that period. once Utd adjusted, it was actually very even for the rest of the game, with both teams as likely to score as each other.

but anyway, how were his tactics, in the main, wrong? that really does need elaboration if you don't mind...

eyescreamcone

cambo2008 wrote: »

Let me bend your ear for a second.
Just to get an idea how objectionable you are.

What is the proper sanction for this incident?
Similar to last night in the fact that neither were tackles but both ended up connecting with an opposing player.

The Suarez incident would also be in the yellow/red area.
However, Nani's was worse because he left the ground, caught the player with his studs up and made stronger contact.

But I remember seeing this Suarez incident and thinking that he was very lucky not to be put off for it.

Remember too that in Europe strong challanges get punished more severely that in the Prem.

Nani gave the referee an opportunity to put him off and can't have any complaints.



I also remember the Shelvey/Evans challange from earlier this season and thought that Shelvey was unlucky to be sent off, however he gave the referee an opportunity to do him.
Evans did a fake roll that day - fooled the ref (and good luck to him). Nani's fake roll fooled nobody.

Morzadec

cambo2008 wrote: »

Let me bend your ear for a second.
Just to get an idea how objectionable you are.

What is the proper sanction for this incident?
Similar to last night in the fact that neither were tackles but both ended up connecting with an opposing player.

What perhaps saves Suarez here, and perhaps condemns Nani last night, is the immediate reaction.

Suarez puts his hand up immediately to acknowledge he's caught Parker and checks if he is okay.

Nani tries to con the referee by pretending he was caught, that it was a 50-50 and that he too is hurt.

But the referee has a clear view of Nani's raised foot hitting Arbeloa. It was obvious what Nani was trying to do from the start, and it could well be that the referee's thought process is:

'I'm not buying that. Why are you pretending to be hurt? It was your high foot. You were not caught. The fact you are pretending to be hurt, pretending it was a 50-50 collision shows you are worried about how that high foot will be perceived. It might even mean it was deliberate.'

Strangely enough, if you watch both incidents before the reaction, Suarez's by far looks the most likely to have been deliberate. Nani's to me looks like a mistake.

But his reaction does him no favours and actually plants a seed of doubt in my mind about how innocent he was.

It could be that it did more than just plant a seed of doubt in the ref's mind, and after seeing Nani's foot lunging into Arbeloa and then Nani inexplicably lying on the ground 'hurt', he comes to the conclusion that this is not a natural reaction for a player who has accidentally harmed another player (which would be Suarez's reaction above, or Diaby's reaction in the Terry video).

He might well have thought that an innocent man would have nothing to hide.

It would be very interesting to know how much Nani's reaction played on the ref's mind when making the decision. If Nani had got straight to his feet, put his hand up, apologised and ran to see if Arbeloa was hurt, would he have been spared the red card?

thorbarry

adox wrote: »

No.

Can you not add more than that? "No" is a pretty useless post

sfwcork

eboue also had never seen the player either

Both had their feet well off the ground

Both made contact with the other player