Manchester United vs Real Madrid Match Thread. 5/3/2013 K.O 19.45

Will I Amnt

eyescreamcone wrote: »

The Suarez incident would also be in the yellow/red area.
However, Nani's was worse because he left the ground, caught the player with his studs up and made stronger contact.

But I remember seeing this Suarez incident and thinking that he was very lucky not to be put off for it.

Remember too that in Europe strong challanges get punished more severely that in the Prem.

Nani gave the referee an opportunity to put him off and can't have any complaints.



I also remember the Shelvey/Evans challange from earlier this season and thought that Shelvey was unlucky to be sent off, however he gave the referee an opportunity to do him.
Evans did a fake roll that day - fooled the ref (and good luck to him). Nani's fake roll fooled nobody.

That's a fair enough opinion. All I wanted was a reasoned response.
You're opinion is still wrong though.. :pac:

FutureGuy

eyescreamcone wrote: »

The Suarez incident would also be in the yellow/red area.
However, Nani's was worse because he left the ground, caught the player with his studs up and made stronger contact.

But I remember seeing this Suarez incident and thinking that he was very lucky not to be put off for it.

Remember too that in Europe strong challanges get punished more severely that in the Prem.

Nani gave the referee an opportunity to put him off and can't have any complaints.



I also remember the Shelvey/Evans challange from earlier this season and thought that Shelvey was unlucky to be sent off, however he gave the referee an opportunity to do him.
Evans did a fake roll that day - fooled the ref (and good luck to him). Nani's fake roll fooled nobody.

Reads posts.
Watches video.
Laughs.
Exits thread.

adox

thorbarry wrote: »

Can you not add more than that? "No" is a pretty useless post

It was a pretty useless question in the first place. Just view the two videos and the answers are there for all to see.

eyescreamcone

cambo2008 wrote: »

That's a fair enough opinion. All I wanted was a reasoned response.
You're opinion is still wrong though.. :pac:

A lot of agreeing to disagree going on today

sfwcork

wrote:

adox

Can you not add more than that? "No" is a pretty useless post

It was a pretty useless question in the first place. Just view the two videos and the answers are there for all to see.

go on so ...teach the stupid and tell us how there completely different

Johnny Utah

SlickRic wrote: »

i found last night hilarious, just to re-iterate.

but how in the name of fúck did Ferguson get it wrong? you'll need an explanation for that. he completely schooled Mourinho up until the sending off.

Ferguson, along with his team, panicked, while Mourinho went for the jugular - taking off a fullback, putting on Modric, and catching Utd on the hop, scoring two clinical goals.

brilliant from Mourinho.

but Ferguson's only fault was his slightly slow reaction, and even then, it took Real at their best to get the 2 goals they needed in that period. once Utd adjusted, it was actually very even for the rest of the game, with both teams as likely to score as each other.

but anyway, how were his tactics, in the main, wrong? that really does need elaboration if you don't mind...

You answered your own question, please see the bits in bold.

Nani gets sent off, therefore the game changes. Ferguson doesn't react. Ergo, no plan B. Imagine if Mourinho was put in Mr Ferguson's position with a player sent off? Do you think the Special 1 would panic? No way!

A good manager always has a back-up plan or even multiple back-up plans. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Also, as has been explained many times on this thread, United approached the two legs with a very defensive mindset. You reap what you sow.

Quazzie

thorbarry wrote: »

Can you not add more than that? "No" is a pretty useless post

One is against United, the other is for United. Totally different. :rolleyes:

eyescreamcone

I presume I'm way too late in saying...

"He could have killed him"

Mr. Ferguson can sometimes be quite silly - but he lost it big time last night and his panic spread to his players.

I liked the Madrid and Mourinho celebrations afterwards - very muted - "it's only the last 16!"

PhlegmyMoses

Quazzie wrote: »

One is against United, the other is for United. Totally different. :rolleyes:

I've explained why I believe it to be a different situation. For a start, Eboue is not trying to control the ball with his foot. It's an aerial challenge so no need for his boot to where it was. Why do you think it is similar?

Cienciano

Xavi6 wrote: »

And I'm far from pro-United/a neutral yet I think it was bad decision.

It's not the exact science it's being made out to be.

I agree, it's not an exact science. There's arguments for and against the decision, that's why I think fans saying it's one of the worse refereeing decision of all time are wrong. I know you didn't say that, but some fans on here are, and some journalists and pundits are too.

Pro. F wrote: »

Playing positive attacking football has traditionally been United's style since Busby promoted it at the club so much. Defending deep and relying on counter attacks is not positive attacking football so no, counter attacking on it's own has not always been United's style.

I think the united style of play is attacking football too, but under fergie the main thing has been adaptability. If that's even a word. They can change their style much easier than other teams. Attack when it's needed, counter attack when it's needed (like away in europe). Never a defensive team. Last night a madrid were the ones that needed the goal, but united went at them. A lot of teams would defend and counter in that situation.

PhlegmyMoses

Johnny Utah wrote: »

You answered your own question, please see the bits in bold.

Nani gets sent off, therefore the game changes. Ferguson doesn't react. Ergo, no plan B. Imagine if Mourinho was put in Mr Ferguson's position with a player sent off? Do you think the Special 1 would panic? No way!

A good manager always has a back-up plan or even multiple back-up plans. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Also, as has been explained many times on this thread, United approached the two legs with a very defensive mindset. You reap what you sow.

Amazing. Mourinho has always been criticized for having no plan b. He used to stick Jarosik or John Terry up front if they went a goal down with 15 mins left on the clock. Fergie outclassed him tactically.

Also, what is this Mr. Ferguson shít?

.jacksparrow.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Amazing. Mourinho has always been criticized for having no plan b. He used to stick Jarosik or John Terry up front if they went a goal down with 15 mins left on the clock. Fergie outclassed him tactically.

Also, what is this Mr. Ferguson shít?

Didn't his inter team defend against Barcelona with ten men for half a match and prevail?

Johnny Utah

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Amazing. Mourinho has always been criticized for having no plan b. He used to stick Jarosik or John Terry up front if they went a goal down with 15 mins left on the clock. Fergie outclassed him tactically.

Also, what is this Mr. Ferguson shít?

Yet he still lost. Over 2 legs! :rolleyes:

Amazing!

roanoke

SlickRic wrote: »

i found last night hilarious, just to re-iterate.

but how in the name of fúck did Ferguson get it wrong? you'll need an explanation for that. he completely schooled Mourinho up until the sending off.

Ferguson, along with his team, panicked, while Mourinho went for the jugular - taking off a fullback, putting on Modric, and catching Utd on the hop, scoring two clinical goals.

brilliant from Mourinho.

but Ferguson's only fault was his slightly slow reaction, and even then, it took Real at their best to get the 2 goals they needed in that period. once Utd adjusted, it was actually very even for the rest of the game, with both teams as likely to score as each other.

but anyway, how were his tactics, in the main, wrong? that really does need elaboration if you don't mind...

Not to disagree with what you said but from what I saw when Mourinho took of Arbeloa for Modric then he stuck Khedira in at RB until Pepe came on to hold the lead at 2-1, so he always a back 4 of sorts. It wasn't like what I've seen for example Man City in Europe this season, taking off a defender and switching to three at the back.

Either way though I agree Madrid certainly went for it after the red.

Regarding how well Fergie's tactics/prep was I found myself thinking if Mourinho had been in the same situation (ie 2-1 up at home 10 v 11, 30mins left) I think he would have made a better job at keeping everyone's mind in the game, reorganising and protecting the lead. Whether one agrees with the red or not it seemed like Man U didn't do a very good job of responding to the outcome.

eyescreamcone

Cienciano wrote: »

I agree, it's not an exact science. There's arguments for and against the decision, that's why I think fans saying it's one of the worse refereeing decision of all time are wrong. I know you didn't say that, but some fans on here are, and some journalists and pundits are too.


I think the united style of play is attacking football too, but under fergie the main thing has been adaptability. If that's even a word. They can change their style much easier than other teams. Attack when it's needed, counter attack when it's needed (like away in europe). Never a defensive team. Last night a madrid were the ones that needed the goal, but united went at them. A lot of teams would defend and counter in that situation.

In my opinion that is not correct.
Utd set up to play defensively 4-5-1 and defended deep hoping to counter attack.
To say they went at them as Utd have done plenty of times at home in the past is not correct (in my opinion)

Prisoner6409

What is annoying is you’d think from the way Utd staff and supporters acted Man Utd were the only team to have suffered from what they perceived as a poor referring decision, even if you agree the ref's decision was poor which is open to debate. I have seen players being sent off for similar offences, imo the ref made the correct decision, Nani's challenge was too high, reckless and dangerous to say the least. There have been plenty of dodgy referring decisions that have gone Utd's way, in fact they have had more than their fair share esp in the Premiership when playing at home. The fact of the matter is in the first half Man Utd playing at home could not score and their only goal in the game was gifted to them from a Real OG. Also plenty of other teams having gone down to 10 men have won games. I do hope UEFA sanction Ferguson for missing the after match press conference. Plenty of other managers have faced the press having lost a game to what they considered poor referring. In the UK Ferguson gets away with murder, the FA either too scared of him or too in awe of him to sanction him in the same way they do other managers.

Best press quote of the night - "Ferguson Speechless" - (at long last).

PhlegmyMoses

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Didn't his inter team defend against Barcelona with ten men for half a match and prevail?

But that wasn't a plan b. He continued with plan a. Park the bus. Fair play, it worked out well but it's not really relevant to the assertion that Jose Mourinho would have had a plan b if, let's say, Di Maria had been the player sent off last night. United were in the ascendancy in an attacking sense and were a goal up.

SlickRic

Johnny Utah wrote: »

You answered your own question, please see the bits in bold.

Nani gets sent off, therefore the game changes. Ferguson doesn't react. Ergo, no plan B. Imagine if Mourinho was put in Mr Ferguson's position with a player sent off? Do you think the Special 1 would panic? No way!

A good manager always has a back-up plan or even multiple back-up plans. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

so one lapse for 10 minutes means he got it "tactically wrong"?

bollocks. and you know it.

it means he made a mistake. getting it "tactically wrong" means he got, um, the tactics wrong, which he didn't.

his team were on top before the sending off. they were looking comfortable. the tactics were correct. Madrid had no room to counter, Ronaldo wasn't in the game, and Utd were creating. how is that "tactically wrong".

again...bollocks I say.

Also, as has been explained many times on this thread, United approached the two legs with a very defensive mindset. You reap what you sow.

more bollocks.

they were tight defensively in Madrid. who the fúck wouldn't be, bar maybe Barcelona?

also, if you follow football, it's widely acknowledged that Madrid are far more dangerous on the counter than they are when they have the ball for long periods. they beat Barca twice with 35% possession this week.

they've lost 4 and drawn 7 away from home this year...a lot of them against weak opposition who sit, denying Madrid space, because they're not the best probers in the world.

it would have been suicide to attack Madrid at will. absolute suicide. and that, to use your own words, has been explained multiple times on this thread.

Pro. F

Cienciano wrote: »

I agree, it's not an exact science. There's arguments for and against the decision, that's why I think fans saying it's one of the worse refereeing decision of all time are wrong. I know you didn't say that, but some fans on here are, and some journalists and pundits are too.


I think the united style of play is attacking football too, but under fergie the main thing has been adaptability. If that's even a word. They can change their style much easier than other teams. Attack when it's needed, counter attack when it's needed (like away in europe). Never a defensive team. Last night a madrid were the ones that needed the goal, but united went at them. A lot of teams would defend and counter in that situation.

United mostly looked to defend and counter. I certainly wouldn't describe the way United played as 'going at them.'

PhlegmyMoses

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Yet he still lost. Over 2 legs! :rolleyes:

Amazing!

It is isn't it? :eek: :cool: :P :pac: :rolleyes: :mad:

kippy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It wasn't the exact same at all though. Eboue was contesting a header and stuck his boot in. He was not attempting to control the ball with his foot. Nani was attempting to control the ball like this:

Those types of pictures (ie someone controlling a ball with their foot high) are absolutely irrelevant in any argument.
Why? Because their studs aren't stuck into an opposing players chest.

It's like a guy up for murder saying to the judge "sure if he wasn't standing there the bullet would have gone into the wall and no one would have been hurt".
As I said on other threads if's and buts are all well and good but what the ref had to decide on was what actually happened.
What actually happened was defo deserving of a yellow and in a some cases a red (depending on the interpretation). Last night it was interpreted as a red.
Thats sport/life.
Grown men (I assume) in this and other threads arguing over it (mainly because of a Liverpool/United divide is cringe worthy.
Certain sections of both sets of fans need to cop on...........

sfwcork

I will say why IMO the are very similar

Both never intentionally took the other player out but yet both made contact with the other player

Both never even saw the other player coming and both were looking at the ball

Yes eboue jumped all over the shop but he at no stage went to kung fu kick him

same as nani never went to kung fu kick last night

homerjay2005

one of 3 penalties UTD should have got last night, this one was a total joke though.

how on earth did this go unnoticed?

PhlegmyMoses

kippy wrote: »

Those types of pictures (ie someone controlling a ball with their foot high) are absolutely irrelevant in any argument.
Why? Because their studs aren't stuck into an opposing players chest.

I was actually using it as an example of what Nani was attempting relative to what Eboue was attempting. I wasn't saying the Henry situation was the exact same as Nani's. Please read my posts if you are going to write an essay about them.

kippy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I was actually using it as an example of what Nani was attempting relative to what Eboue was attempting. I wasn't saying the Henry situation was the exact same as Nani's. Please read my posts if you are going to write an essay about them.

Everyone knows what he was trying to do, unfortunately for him there was another player in the way who he caught in the chest.

ThunbergsAreGo

764dak wrote: »

I thought I was the only person that thought van Persie was offside. I thought the linesman would have put up his flag when van Persie got the ball.

Yeah just watched it back there, think he is just offside, depends if it hits the Madrid player or Welbeck last, cant see from the angle

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one of 3 penalties UTD should have got last night, this one was a total joke though.

how on earth did this go unnoticed?

the Evra one at the end was far more blatant.

shirt pulls go unnoticed at least 95% of the time when it's a defender on an attacker. it's why they do it so often.

sea_monkey

the funny thing is,
united fans will come out and say point blank that chelsea got done in the semi final with barca.
united fans would even say the same if liverpool got done by a ref.
united fans are saying that rio was in the wrong for clapping in the refs face.

why? cause we're classy like that and don't have to base our whole seasons success on another teams misfortune

ThunbergsAreGo

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one of 3 penalties UTD should have got last night, this one was a total joke though.

how on earth did this go unnoticed?

Yeah blatant penalty, was shocked it wasnt given, but Welbeck should score from two yards out

PhlegmyMoses

kippy wrote: »

Everyone knows what he was trying to do, unfortunately for him there was another player in the way who he caught in the chest.

This has nothing to do with the discussion you were quoting.

SantryRed

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Amazing. Mourinho has always been criticized for having no plan b. He used to stick Jarosik or John Terry up front if they went a goal down with 15 mins left on the clock. Fergie outclassed him tactically.

Also, what is this Mr. Ferguson shít?

That's a load of rubbish.

redarmy

sea_monkey wrote: »

the funny thing is,
united fans will come out and say point blank that chelsea got done in the semi final with barca.
united fans would even say the same if liverpool got done by a ref.
united fans are saying that rio was in the wrong for clapping in the refs face.

why? cause we're classy like that and don't have to base out whole seasons success on another teams misfortune

:pac:
classy me arse

PhlegmyMoses

SantryRed wrote: »

That's a load of rubbish.

Cheers for that insightful post. Can you explain why?

almighty1

naughtb4 wrote: »

Yeah blatant penalty, was shocked it wasnt given, but Welbeck should score from two yards out

He was already flagged offside at that stage

SantryRed

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Cheers for that insightful post. Can you explain why?

Because the game was as tight as a duck's arse. If Ferguson outclassed Mourinho, why did De Gea have to come to the side's rescue several times in the Bernabeau?

Even last night was very tight and could have gone either way. I would argue Mourinho won the tactical battle with his quick sub to Modric on which completely swung the game in Madrid's favour, whilst Ferguson did nothing and that ultimately cost United in the end.

SlickRic

by the way, Raphael Varane looks like a fúcking animal of a CB.

and 19.

fúck.

LuckyLloyd

The laws are ****ed. The issue is people want to cherry pick when it annoys them. In that regard, no sympathy.

The_Kew_Tour

SlickRic wrote: »

by the way, Raphael Varane looks like a fúcking animal of a CB.

and 19.

fúck.

There was a situation last night where Nani was 2 yards in front of him and somehow he got back to block it for corner.

Pace to burn.

super_furry

Looked at it again and two things struck my mind. Firstly Nani has a little petulant kick out at the end of the contact and he didn't do himself any favours lying on the ground pretending to be injured. Made it look like he was guilty of doing something he shouldn't have and was trying to hide it.

FatherTed

Jax Teller wrote: »

You think the Ref was right ? And the Fa wrong for overturning ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vy5mLiM76E

The whole point is that the FA reviewed the red and overturned it after careful examination.

PhlegmyMoses

SantryRed wrote: »

Because the game was as tight as a duck's arse. If Ferguson outclassed Mourinho, why did De Gea have to come to the side's rescue several times in the Bernabeau?

Even last night was very tight and could have gone either way. I would argue Mourinho won the tactical battle with his quick sub to Modric on which completely swung the game in Madrid's favour, whilst Ferguson did nothing and that ultimately cost United in the end.

United had the better chances at the Bernebeu. In the second half, Ferguson recognised that the best way to stop Ronaldo was not when he had the ball but before it even reached him. He stuck Welbeck on Alonso at half-time and they barely got a sniff. He took this into the second leg and for 50-60 mins it worked splendidly. Limited Real to very few chances with just enough cutting edge when countering to do damage.

Real Madrid have the better team on paper. The only way the match was kept tight was through Ferguson's tactics. His tactics dictated how Madrid had to play. So many times before the sending off Madrid players ended up knocking it out of play or sending in hopeful through balls waiting on a bit of Ronaldo magic. They had run out of ideas.

Mourinho did make a good sub in Modric but I suspect that that sub was coming red card or not. He needed ideas and to get more bodies in midfield. If anything, Mourinho could maybe have looked at that at half-time and taken action then. As it stood, Madrid were not looking likely to score.

mada999

FutureGuy wrote: »

One of the worst referreeing decisions ever has destroyed the game.

Hardly one of the worst ever....

.jacksparrow.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one of 3 penalties UTD should have got last night, this one was a total joke though.

how on earth did this go unnoticed?

He was offside.

sfwcork

wrote:

sea_monkey
the funny thing is,
united fans will come out and say point blank that chelsea got done in the semi final with barca.
united fans would even say the same if liverpool got done by a ref.
united fans are saying that rio was in the wrong for clapping in the refs face.

why? cause we're classy like that and don't have to base our whole seasons success on another teams misfortune

yeah the twitter messages to the ref and the abuse aimed at keane when he gave his opinion showed class alright

FutureGuy

SlickRic wrote: »

so one lapse for 10 minutes means he got it "tactically wrong"?

bollocks. and you know it.

it means he made a mistake. getting it "tactically wrong" means he got, um, the tactics wrong, which he didn't.

his team were on top before the sending off. they were looking comfortable. the tactics were correct. Madrid had no room to counter, Ronaldo wasn't in the game, and Utd were creating. how is that "tactically wrong".

again...bollocks I say.



more bollocks.

they were tight defensively in Madrid. who the fúck wouldn't be, bar maybe Barcelona?

also, if you follow football, it's widely acknowledged that Madrid are far more dangerous on the counter than they are when they have the ball for long periods. they beat Barca twice with 35% possession this week.

they've lost 4 and drawn 7 away from home this year...a lot of them against weak opposition who sit, denying Madrid space, because they're not the best probers in the world.

it would have been suicide to attack Madrid at will. absolute suicide. and that, to use your own words, has been explained multiple times on this thread.

FFS Ric, cop on with your valid answers, educated opinions, acute analysis of Madrid's strengths, superior football knowlegde, tactical acumen and unbiased comments.

fullstop

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one of 3 penalties UTD should have got last night, this one was a total joke though.

how on earth did this go unnoticed?

Oh I dunno, maybe because the free out was given as he was in an offside position? Maybe have a look back at the match.

Will I Amnt

I'm bowing out of this thread now for my own sanity.
Something I will take from this game is that we are still able to mix it with the biggest in Europe despite what others have tried to say about the supposed weakness of the EPL and how we wouldn't have a hope against the Madrids, Barcas and Munichs of the game.

This is a very strong United squad make no mistake about it.

FutureGuy

SlickRic wrote: »

by the way, Raphael Varane looks like a fúcking animal of a CB.

and 19.

fúck.

Was dissapointed United didn't snap him up tbh. He looks phenomenal.

Essien

mada999 wrote: »

Hardly one of the worst ever....

Absolutely nowhere near it.

The reality is the ref made a poor but kind of understandable call which had massive implications for United. Under most other circumstances and for pretty much any team, there's no way a ref would be lambasted like this for making this call.

FutureGuy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Amazing. Mourinho has always been criticized for having no plan b. He used to stick Jarosik or John Terry up front if they went a goal down with 15 mins left on the clock. Fergie outclassed him tactically.

Also, what is this Mr. Ferguson shít?

Postes by eyescreamcone 10 months ago....
"I loved when he referred to the Man U manager as Mr. Ferguson instead of all the brown noses who genuflect to Sir Alex By the way everybody uses some form of zonal marking at set pieces. Otherwise, the forwards would bring the backs for a walk outside the box and the corner would be placed bet"