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Vegan Philosophy?

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    #32
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between throwing bottles at homeless people and someone eating meat....

    My point is that you said that what ppl do is up to them and who am I to question the actions of others.. So following your logic what I do to innocent homeless ppl is between them and I (and possibly the law enforcement) but you have no right to comment on me harasing them


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    #33
    Zombienosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭Zombienosh


    Physically doing something to someone doesn't change their beliefs, who are you to force your beliefs on someone? and Why would someone else care about your beliefs?


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    #34
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    Physically doing something to someone doesn't change their beliefs, who are you to force your beliefs on someone? and Why would someone else care about your beliefs?

    What do you mean psychically doing something to someone doesn't change their beliefs? Throwing bottles at homeless ppl was an allegory

    Who are you to support the systematic abuse of defenseless animals?
    If you weren't affecting anything you could do what you want but
    you are affecting things so anyone has the right to criticise you.. That's not
    my opinion, that's indisputable


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    #35
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    simon0brien wrote: »
    I've recently become vegan.

    I'm wondering if any other vegans could tell me how the conduct themselves towards meat eaters...

    3. The manipulation of defenceless animals is disgusting and as a non-vegan you are contributing to this?

    This sort of response is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou behaviour that some vegans display, that turns people away from wanting to know more.
    simon0brien wrote: »
    But if you see somebody eating a product from animals who were subject to horrible torturous lives are you just supposed to sit there and not say anything?

    Your computer, or at least some of its parts, was probably made by Chinese workers in deplorable conditions. You're using a product from people who were subject to horrible torturous lives. Am I just supposed to sit here and not say anything?
    simon0brien wrote: »

    Who are you to support the systematic abuse of defenseless animals?
    If you weren't affecting anything you could do what you want but
    you are affecting things so anyone has the right to criticise you.. That's not
    my opinion, that's indisputable

    Yep... substitute "defenseless animals" for "Chinese people struggling to make a living".


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    #36
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Magenta wrote: »
    This sort of response is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou behaviour that some vegans display, that turns people away from wanting to know more.



    Your computer, or at least some of its parts, was probably made by Chinese workers in deplorable conditions. You're using a product from people who were subject to horrible torturous lives. Am I just supposed to sit here and not say anything?



    Yep... substitute "defenseless animals" for "Chinese people struggling to make a living".

    I agree with you but that's a separate issue.. What control do I have over working conditions of ppl in China?


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    #37
    Crasp
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Crasp


    simon0brien wrote: »
    I agree with you but that's a separate issue.. What control do I have over working conditions of ppl in China?


    ...about as much as you have over the rest of the world choosing to eat meat.


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    #38
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Crasp wrote: »
    ...about as much as you have over the rest of the world choosing to eat meat.

    Not exactly.. My diet can influence others around me even if It's just a little change


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    #39
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    simon0brien wrote: »
    Not exactly.. My diet can influence others around me even if It's just a little change

    So can whether or not you choose to use sweatshop goods.


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    #40
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Magenta wrote: »
    So can whether or not you choose to use sweatshop goods.

    There is a difference.. Those who work in sweatshops usually do so of their own accord.. Even if financial issues but their back up against the wall


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    #41
    GoldCobra
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭GoldCobra


    simon0brien wrote: »
    There is a difference.. Those who work in sweatshops usually do so of their own accord.. Even if financial issues but their back up against the wall

    Those who eat meat usually do so of their own accord.


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    #42
    Killer_banana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    Yes diet and debate can influence but it can also alienate depending on how it's done. A friend of mine is currently considering a vegetarian diet and one factor that's lead to it is my own diet and discussions we had on farming methods and the like. Those discussions came about when he expressed interest. If I had chosen to tell him about my diet and why I chose it simply 'cause he was sitting across from me eating a ham sandwich I think it would have had the opposite effect. You can influence others through your lifestyle but most people don't like to be attacked for their lifestyle choices out of the blue. If you choose to express your views without invitation to someone who eats meat, while they are eating meat I really can only see it doing more harm than good.


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    #43
    Zombienosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭Zombienosh


    Nobody likes feeling "wrong". I understand where you're coming from, I'm going to assume that you're new enough to being veggie/vegan?
    I'm pretty sure at some point everyone who is/was veggie/vegan went .."Omg why doesn't everyone else get it? why are they so ****in stupid, It's so obvious killing millions is wrong, why can't they see it? Maybe if I help highlight it and point out how wrong it is!"


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    #44
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    The conversation generally goes like this:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy35qv_justin-timberlake-bring-it-on-down-2-veganville-veganshake-snl-3-9-13_music


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    #45
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Killer_banana wrote: »
    Yes diet and debate can influence but it can also alienate depending on how it's done. A friend of mine is currently considering a vegetarian diet and one factor that's lead to it is my own diet and discussions we had on farming methods and the like. Those discussions came about when he expressed interest. If I had chosen to tell him about my diet and why I chose it simply 'cause he was sitting across from me eating a ham sandwich I think it would have had the opposite effect. You can influence others through your lifestyle but most people don't like to be attacked for their lifestyle choices out of the blue. If you choose to express your views without invitation to someone who eats meat, while they are eating meat I really can only see it doing more harm than good.

    I know.. I'm the same.. I'd never attack somebody or even try to influence them by argument.. I'm not that naive.. But all I'm saying is I'd never just sit there and not say anything and keep my beliefs to myself.. I think ppl on this tread have got the wrong idea :O


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    #46
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    Nobody likes feeling "wrong". I understand where you're coming from, I'm going to assume that you're new enough to being veggie/vegan?
    I'm pretty sure at some point everyone who is/was veggie/vegan went .."Omg why doesn't everyone else get it? why are they so ****in stupid, It's so obvious killing millions is wrong, why can't they see it? Maybe if I help highlight it and point out how wrong it is!"


    I am.. Yep you are right in what you say.. I guess I will never understand
    the idea that "nobody likes being wrong" because if somebody were to
    argue with me and prove me wrong in any way I'd enjoy being challenged
    and if I were ignorant I'd thank them for explaining and pointing that out :O


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    #47
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    simon0brien wrote: »
    I'd never attack somebody or even try to influence them by argument.. I'm not that naive.. But all I'm saying is I'd never just sit there and not say anything and keep my beliefs to myself..

    Why spout your opinions and preach at people if you aren't trying to influence them? Does it make you feel superior? Do you just like the sound of your own voice in social situations?


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    #48
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Magenta wrote: »
    Why spout your opinions and preach at people if you aren't trying to influence them? Does it make you feel superior? Do you just like the sound of your own voice in social situations?

    Because I have a voice.. And yes I am in a way superior as I chose to sacrifice and believe in a form of moral justice


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    #49
    openup
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭openup


    simon0brien wrote: »
    Because I have a voice.. And yes I am in a way superior as I chose to sacrifice and believe in a form of moral justice

    But you're not superior! You gave up meat, that's hardly a sacrifice, and it doesn't make you inherently better than everyone else. I mean, yeah, I think eating meat is wrong and harmful but not everybody agrees with that and even if they do they may not think it that important. A friend of mine eats meet occasionally because she works for an NGO that works with aids victims in improverhised countries and when she visits there she needs to be able to eat whatever is offered to her (and like many, if she goes veg then eating meat will make her ill). So she's a terrible person in your mind?

    You can't judge a person on one act. Especially when it's something that is so normalised it's easy to understand how people may not see it as wrong. Heck, I think making your kids believe in Santa is wrong but I don't think it makes you a bad parent!


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    #50
    --LOS--
    Registered Users Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭--LOS--


    I'm a vegetarian but definitely option 1, I'm not going to be self-righteous about not eating meat, I've made my decision off my own back and others can do the same. If anyone is interested in becoming vegetarian they're going to want to educate themselves about it anyway, if they're not interested at all, no amount of preaching is going to change that. Something like peoples general attitudes towards diet is something that changes slowly over time, there are more and more veg*ns all the time, and I think we're being catered to better too, it's not something you can force though.


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    #51
    Looking Glass
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Looking Glass


    iainconlon12 wrote: »
    3. I hardly say it anymore though because some meat-eaters are plain thick and can't have any sort of argument without constant interruptions and getting angry.

    Definitely know how you feel!

    There's nothing worse than an obnoxious person who obstinately keeps demanding a reason for your choice. It happened to me recently enough and it was a thoroughly frustrating experience!


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    #52
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    openup wrote: »
    But you're not superior! You gave up meat, that's hardly a sacrifice, and it doesn't make you inherently better than everyone else. I mean, yeah, I think eating meat is wrong and harmful but not everybody agrees with that and even if they do they may not think it that important. A friend of mine eats meet occasionally because she works for an NGO that works with aids victims in improverhised countries and when she visits there she needs to be able to eat whatever is offered to her (and like many, if she goes veg then eating meat will make her ill). So she's a terrible person in your mind?

    You can't judge a person on one act. Especially when it's something that is so normalised it's easy to understand how people may not see it as wrong. Heck, I think making your kids believe in Santa is wrong but I don't think it makes you a bad parent!

    I never said I was better than anybody. I said technically I am morally supirior as I abstain. I don't think your friend is a terrible person. Can you not have a mature debade without putting words in peoples mouths? If she were a vegan she would be able to bring pre packed foods as campers and moutain climbers do.

    You say "you can't judge a person on one act". So if I get up and shoot somebody dead, is that okay? Yes you can judge people on single acts because that's what life is made up of. People can do whatever they want as long as It's not affecting others but eating meat does affect others. Unless they refuse to accept animals as 'others.


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    #53
    Killer_banana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    simon0brien wrote: »
    I never said I was better than anybody. I said technically I am morally supirior as I abstain. I don't think your friend is a terrible person. Can you not have a mature debade without putting words in peoples mouths? If she were a vegan she would be able to bring pre packed foods as campers and moutain climbers do.

    You say "you can't judge a person on one act". So if I get up and shoot somebody dead, is that okay? Yes you can judge people on single acts because that's what life is made up of. People can do whatever they want as long as It's not affecting others but eating meat does affect others. Unless they refuse to accept animals as 'others.

    If you are going to continue to use comparisons at least compare things which are the same. To call yourself morally superior than people is quite arrogant in my opinion. Also a lot of people do not see animals as others. I am a vegetarian soon to be vegan and while I think the treatment of animals in farming is horrible and think when we have alternatives to eating meat and do no need it to survive I nonetheless would not see an animal as an 'other'. I think it would be wonderful if everyone is vegan or vegetarian but I also believe in having my beliefs respected and if I want that then I should respect others as well even if I do not agree with them.

    And no you can't judge people on single acts, human beings are far more complex than that, as is life. The world isn't black and white.


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    #54
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    simon0brien wrote: »
    I never said I was better than anybody. I said technically I am morally supirior as I abstain. I don't think your friend is a terrible person. Can you not have a mature debade without putting words in peoples mouths? If she were a vegan she would be able to bring pre packed foods as campers and moutain climbers do.

    You say "you can't judge a person on one act". So if I get up and shoot somebody dead, is that okay? Yes you can judge people on single acts because that's what life is made up of. People can do whatever they want as long as It's not affecting others but eating meat does affect others. Unless they refuse to accept animals as 'others.

    To be honest, you're the one who sounds immature. It sounds like you've made one big decision without mammy and daddy's help and now you think you know it all.


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    #55
    crazy cabbage
    Registered Users Posts: 738 ✭✭✭crazy cabbage


    I am am a vegetariean but new enough to it so sorry if i get something wrong.
    3. The manipulation of defenceless animals is disgusting and as a non-vegan you are contributing to this?
    Are you suggesting that everyone becomes vegan... If people did that then all cows and sheep and chickens and hens and pigs and and and ect ect ect would die out almost imideatly. That doesn't seem in line with what you are trying to achieve by becoming vegan. If i went out and shot every one of the above anaimls on the planet it would be equivelent to everyone becoming vegan IMO.
    As a vegetarian you (well I at least) believe that we can live alongside anaimals and give them a quality of life and in return take what eggs and milk ect that we need in a way that is respectful to the anaimal involved. That wouldn't happen if everyone was vegan becouse who would rear anaimals for no benifit what so ever?

    Sorry if i got something wrong but i think that that is logical reasoning. If i jumped a step in my logic let me know.

    You said this ealier so i will say it back in light of my reasoning above.
    Do you think
    genocide is okay??
    Again I never would normally challenge someones beliefs like this but if you are going to call me discusting.... Plus like you said in an earlier post you dont mind debating and educating people on this


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    #56
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    It's important not to fall into the trap of self-righteousness. I see that some people with strong religious beliefs get like that quite often, not only is it obnoxious, it repels more people than it attracts. I've found that it is far better to live with integrity according to one's convictions, set a good example, and answer any questions that people may ask rather than seeking to sign them up.

    I think it's often forgotten that people choose vegetarianism/veganism for a variety of reasons,which may or may not include animal welfare. In my case, it was a combination of concerns over animal welfare along with the destructive environmental impact that the meat industry. I'm not a vegan (though I'd never rule it out) so I accept that my dietary choice may still be responsible for some level of suffering, but I've sought to reduce it as much as is currently practical for me. That said, I absolutely do not feel superior to anyone who chooses to eat meat, far from it, it was my choice and mine alone (and one I probably wouldn't have made if someone had made it their business to convert me). I've enjoyed being a vegetarian so far and I'm eating better than I ever ate as an omnivore, so it's not as if I'm sacrificing anything!


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    #57
    Zombienosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭Zombienosh


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    (and one I probably wouldn't have made if someone had made it their business to convert me)

    This is an interesting point. I only became vegetarian in my late 20's and only through my own decision, I didn't have any veggie friends or influences. It was in the back on my mind for a while but seemed like and idle idea that wouldn't be followed through, then I simply woke up one day and decided.

    I don't think I would have become a veggie if I was convinced by others of if I knew a lot of veggies or even if I was younger. I've always liked that I came to this decision alone and if someone was trying to convert or preach to me, I would have went the other way regardless if it was "right" or "wrong".


    I think becoming one when I did was the right time for me. I grew aware of who I was/am as a person and every decision I made was exactly that, a decision I made.
    There are young people who dive into vegetarianism solely for animal welfare reasons or what other people may deem as naive "omg poor animals" syndrome, and then grow to understand the environmental reasons, spiritual reasons and the general impact their life and their choices have on the life of this planet and all living things we are lucky enough to share it with.

    I think joining vegetarianism later on in life one takes everything into account and maybe then feels more prepared for what impact this will have on their lives in the long term and has a better understanding why they chose this. I know some people might feel they are "missing something" or "giving something up" but really I see it as gaining so much more.


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    #58
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Killer_banana wrote: »
    If you are going to continue to use comparisons at least compare things which are the same. To call yourself morally superior than people is quite arrogant in my opinion. Also a lot of people do not see animals as others. I am a vegetarian soon to be vegan and while I think the treatment of animals in farming is horrible and think when we have alternatives to eating meat and do no need it to survive I nonetheless would not see an animal as an 'other'. I think it would be wonderful if everyone is vegan or vegetarian but I also believe in having my beliefs respected and if I want that then I should respect others as well even if I do not agree with them.

    And no you can't judge people on single acts, human beings are far more complex than that, as is life. The world isn't black and white.

    How are they not the same? Murdering a human and murdering an animal are different? Why so? I think It's arrogant to suggest a human's life is indispensable yet an animal's is. At what point did you accept the mortality of humans as more important than animals? I can't accept another's beliefs if It means murdering a defenceless animal in cold blood for money or a tasty meal..


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    #59
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    Magenta wrote: »
    To be honest, you're the one who sounds immature. It sounds like you've made one big decision without mammy and daddy's help and now you think you know it all.

    Yes I'm sure you know me very well hahahaha pathetic


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    #60
    simon0brien
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭simon0brien


    crazy cabbage wrote: »
    I am am a vegetariean but new enough to it so sorry if i get something wrong.

    Are you suggesting that everyone becomes vegan... If people did that then all cows and sheep and chickens and hens and pigs and and and ect ect ect would die out almost imideatly. That doesn't seem in line with what you are trying to achieve by becoming vegan. If i went out and shot every one of the above anaimls on the planet it would be equivelent to everyone becoming vegan IMO.
    As a vegetarian you (well I at least) believe that we can live alongside anaimals and give them a quality of life and in return take what eggs and milk ect that we need in a way that is respectful to the anaimal involved. That wouldn't happen if everyone was vegan becouse who would rear anaimals for no benifit what so ever?

    Sorry if i got something wrong but i think that that is logical reasoning. If i jumped a step in my logic let me know.

    You said this ealier so i will say it back in light of my reasoning above.
    Again I never would normally challenge someones beliefs like this but if you are going to call me discusting.... Plus like you said in an earlier post you dont mind debating and educating people on this

    That's a good point. In Ireland I'm sure almost all dairy product come from decent sources and from farmers who care deeply for their animals. But after all the milking has been done and the animals dairy product producing days are through I'm sure they are killed for their meat. So I see demand for dairy products as the prelude for the demand for meat. If I had chickens or a cow outside I wouldn't think twice about using their dairy.

    Did I call you that :O


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    #61
    Killer_banana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    simon0brien wrote: »
    How are they not the same? Murdering a human and murdering an animal are different? Why so? I think It's arrogant to suggest a human's life is indispensable yet an animal's is. At what point did you accept the mortality of humans as more important than animals? I can't accept another's beliefs if It means murdering a defenceless animal in cold blood for money or a tasty meal..

    You're right it is arrogant of me to assume that humans lives are more important than animals. I shouldn't do that. I'm a vegan though, I'm more likely to think like that. The truth is, as I said, most people don't see humans and animals as equals and if you use the loss of human life as a comparison they won't listen to you. That might make you angry but telling them they're wrong won't do you any favours. At the end of the day people get angry when you don't respect their point of view and by preaching to people or telling them that you think them eating meat is inhumane is disrespecting their choice.

    I like meat eaters to respect my opinions and choices and in return I extend them the same courtesy. I welcome the chance to talk about my choices and in some ways educate people when I get it but if someone doesn't express interest then I'm not going to force my views on them. I feel like I'm going round in circles here and saying the same things over and over so unless I fell I have something radically new to add I can't see myself posting here again.


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