The country seems to be getting very small for our elected "elite"

G Power

So it would seem that people are starting to mobilise and pop up in all manner of places to protest in the previous few weeks. Be it a Dundalk shopping centre to run Joan Burton or PWHC to highlight issues surround their business practices, to council meetins across the country being shut down by peaceful gatherings of brave Irish souls. These are not huge numbers of people but you'd have to agree the frequency of these protests are increasing these past few weeks and may be one to watch.

So, my question is, is this the beginnings of a rising of the people??

Please allow me to back my claims up by showing you some links below...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking56.html

http://donegalnews.com/2013/02/garda...ve-protestors/

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/loc...ting-1-4829328

Cork Council meeting!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AUx2uho26Y

Joan Burton gets run out by half the people in a Dundalk shopping centre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMbo2Gwa6WY

Enda Kenny
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=258682630933224
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57wU...&feature=share
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

PriceWaterHouseCoopers
http://www.thejournal.ie/30-protesters-occupy-pwc-over-%E2%80%98unfair%E2%80%99-austerity-taxes-813836-Feb2013/

Chips Lovell

What is a "rising"? Or at least, what is it in the sense that you're envisaging here?

sfakiaman

History shows us that 'Risings' in Ireland are like shovelling sh1t out of a cow shed, you just have one lot out and another lot comes and craps all over the place:mad:

G Power

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What is a "rising"? Or at least, what is it in the sense that you're envisaging here?

in so far as the people are finally taking their anger out on those who swan around the place living it up and making empty soundbytes saying one thing to us and another completely opposite view to their bosses in Europe and the US etc.

G Power

sfakiaman wrote: »

History shows us that 'Risings' in Ireland are like shovelling sh1t out of a cow shed, you just have one lot out and another lot comes and craps all over the place:mad:

yes, but for how many years did we practically let them away with their $hit for governance after the fact??

When this gains the support of the average joe soap I don't think anyone will wait so long to fight back again as that only causes more pain for us and none to the politicians.

Eventually it will become apparent to those who seek to get into the Dail that they will only be left in there and without public ridicule if they do the right thing.

edit. awaits someone to ask what the right thing is.

the answer is usually doing the opposite to what they want to do, ie don't sell Coillte, don't bail out private debts, don't cut the carers benefit, don't give away our oil/gas etc etc

maccored

Considering they have a habit of constantly voting for people who are only in it for themselves, its a tad late complaining wouldnt you think?

G Power wrote: »

in so far as the people are finally taking their anger out on those who swan around the place living it up and making empty soundbytes saying one thing to us and another completely opposite view to their bosses in Europe and the US etc.

G Power

maccored wrote: »

Considering they have a habit of constantly voting for people who are only in it for themselves, its a tad late complaining wouldnt you think?

nobody is complaining, people are getting in the politicians faces in increasing numbers and frequencies and if the politicians want to ignore the people until the bitter end when they have no other choice but to call elections and leave then that's their decision.

It would be nice if they decided to cut the $hit and adress peoples issues and therefore nobody would have anything to protest about but no, they want to keep ignoring the underlying issues and try stay in power unti April 2016 pmsl!!

It's themselves that are making the decisions that will see them gone by the end of the year.

It's been stated here many times to remind people that the Cowen led "government" was only left in charge 2 years and the people forced the brass neck fcukers to hold the elections the did everything in their power to avoid!!

Enough is enough for once and for all.

Also if the same people refuse to join in with the protests it will mean no new politicians will be inclined to change the way politics is run in this country. It's the lack of true support on the streets that has caused things to get as bad as they have. Why would they bother changing when only a few hit the streets and the rest sit at home or stand at the side of the street laughing at the protestors and have every single excuse under the sun ready to justify their lack of pride.

Chips Lovell

I don't know. With regard to the big protests, you're still not seeing massive numbers there to indicate a wide degree of popular discontent.

The other kind of protests we've been seeing recently, where individual politicians are targeted, can give a misleading impression, in that you can get the same small groups of people doing repeated noisy protests.

Certainly all of the opinion polls don't really point to a massive sea-change in opinion. Yep you're getting a bit of a swing against the coalition, like you would see mid-term but a lot of that is going back to FF. So reading those results indicates that most folks aren't really abandoning the current consensus on how to manage things.

G Power

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't know. With regard to the big protests, you're still not seeing massive numbers there to indicate a wide degree of popular discontent.

yes but this is for a multitude of reasons, on a mass scale, low confidence that anything can ever be changed for the better being one, denial to get through the day that leads to doing nothing at all but give out about the few that are out of the blocks before ye and are patiently waiting for the support to back up what everyone knows. Also, our "elite" rubbing shoulders with those who sign off on killings across the globe daily, sometimes to try cover their tracks (Libya) or damage limitation (Mali) doesn't help either.

Can't pay, sorry!!

The Corinthian

G Power wrote: »

So, my question is, is this the beginnings of a rising of the people??

In a word, no.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Certainly all of the opinion polls don't really point to a massive sea-change in opinion. Yep you're getting a bit of a swing against the coalition, like you would see mid-term but a lot of that is going back to FF. So reading those results indicates that most folks aren't really abandoning the current consensus on how to manage things.

And there we have it; there's nothing revolutionary here, just a standard swing from one of the principle established parties, back to the other. Business as usual.

jimmycrackcorm

Traditionally risings have been things with a plan to implement to replace the status quo.

Instead what the op is indicating are simply protests with no alternatives or at least wishy washy ideals.

G Power

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Traditionally risings have been things with a plan to implement to replace the status quo.

Instead what the op is indicating are simply protests with no alternatives or at least wishy washy ideals.

yes and those in "power" love the fact that people have been so divided and conquered that it's taken until now for resistance to start.

in other news, nobody is allowed protest unless they've got a detailed manifesto and woe bitide anyone who tries to start something because there will always be some who will find fault with everything and that's them out.

If people were half as quick to jump down the necks of their politicians as they are anyone or any group that tries to mobilise people we would be in a better place today.

Know your enemy lads and it sure as hell isn't those on the ground who Angela and the likes wouldn't piss on if we were on fire!!

Chips Lovell

I think it's quite comforting to think that the "elites" are responsible for all of our problems and that if we could just kick them out, then everything would change. And I believe that kind of thinking is on the rise, as you see more and more people trying to find a scapegoat, whether its public sector workers or the Germans or whoever.

There isn't really any barrier between the "elite" and us. Any aul eejit can become a TD, as we well know at this stage. We're free to elect whoever we choose and, as it stands, we've a fairly wide selection of parties in front of us and no barrier for people to organise even more groups.

The reality, I suspect, is that grumbling aside, most people realise that we've a fairly intractable set of problems at the moment and that any solution is going to involve taking a fair chunk of pain.

Chips Lovell

G Power wrote: »

Know your enemy lads and it sure as hell isn't those on the ground who Angela and the likes wouldn't piss on if we were on fire!!

You see, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that protesters are their enemy.

G Power

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There isn't really any barrier between the "elite" and us. Any aul eejit can become a TD, as we well know at this stage. We're free to elect whoever we choose and, as it stands, we've a fairly wide selection of parties in front of us and no barrier for people to organise even more groups.

The reality, I suspect, is that grumbling aside, most people realise that we've a fairly intractable set of problems at the moment and that any solution is going to involve taking a fair chunk of pain.

it depends on what you'd like to call barriers. I'll be attending the G8 protests and there will be very visible/audible barriers at that. You are correct that any auld eejit can become a TD, some will be laughed at a couple of weeks after the government whitewashed the suicide in their party by accusing social media to have pushed Shane McEntee over the edge http://www.thejournal.ie/video-ming-flanagan-dress-code-704848-Dec2012/

and others will be afforded a little bit more respect but will be equally ignored all the same and might as well have saved their breath for all the good it done trying to speak to the corrupted http://stephendonnelly.ie/a-call-not-to-welcome-the-promissory-notes/

I've started to point out to those in opposition that they've great patience and have asked how many times can one be completely ignored before a man/woman stands up for themselves??

The Corinthian

G Power wrote: »

yes and those in "power" love the fact that people have been so divided and conquered that it's taken until now for resistance to start.

OK, I see you've not really taken in what pretty much everyone here has said to you, which is that no one is really mobilizing anywhere.

in other news, nobody is allowed protest unless they've got a detailed manifesto and woe bitide anyone who tries to start something because there will always be some who will find fault with everything and that's them out.

If people were half as quick to jump down the necks of their politicians as they are anyone or any group that tries to mobilise people we would be in a better place today.

Why so sure? I think you'll find that most revolutions in history have ended up leaving people either no better than before or often worse - especially the 'spontaneous' ones that don't have a plan.

G Power

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

You see, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that protesters are their enemy.

maybe not right now or in this thread (yet) but in many other threads (protests/marches) started with best of intentions there are those who must feel ashamed or some other very strong emotions for not supporting anything for every reason imaginable and a lot of the time protestors are made out to be a bigger enemy than those doing the bidding of those who control the money.

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

yes and those in "power" love the fact that people have been so divided and conquered that it's taken until now for resistance to start.



Know your enemy lads and it sure as hell isn't those on the ground who Angela and the likes wouldn't piss on if we were on fire!!

More like we have had our fun on money that we never had and we do not/ will not pay, or face up to our responsibility, aka we ate our cake and still want it. The pain you observe is Ireland being slowly dragged, like dragging a mule up a hill, into the age of fiscal responsibility.

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

More like we have had our fun on money that we never had and we do not/ will not pay, or face up to our responsibility, aka we ate our cake and still want it. The pain you observe is Ireland being slowly dragged, like dragging a mule up a hill, into the age of fiscal responsibility.

are you for real??

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-eurozone-crisis-for-dummies-2012-5

this is all over numbers on computer screens not having anything tangible to back them up.

in hindsight a ctrl+alt+del could have been less painful for us, sure those who threw their imaginary monies at bets that would yield even more fantastical wealth would suffer and they can well afford it in most instances but don't blame the poor fool who couldn't resist the pre-approved credit card as that was all part of the plan mon ami

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

are you for real??

Well the last time I checked I felt real enough. If you dispute my post, then do so, not a personal attack on my status please.

maccored

People should protest by not voting for the same politicians year in and year out. Come election time, the peoples 'protest' will probably get FF re-elected again - and that'll tell us just how f*cked up this country really is.

G Power wrote: »

nobody is complaining, people are getting in the politicians faces in increasing numbers and frequencies and if the politicians want to ignore the people until the bitter end when they have no other choice but to call elections and leave then that's their decision.

It would be nice if they decided to cut the $hit and adress peoples issues and therefore nobody would have anything to protest about but no, they want to keep ignoring the underlying issues and try stay in power unti April 2016 pmsl!!

It's themselves that are making the decisions that will see them gone by the end of the year.

It's been stated here many times to remind people that the Cowen led "government" was only left in charge 2 years and the people forced the brass neck fcukers to hold the elections the did everything in their power to avoid!!

Enough is enough for once and for all.

Also if the same people refuse to join in with the protests it will mean no new politicians will be inclined to change the way politics is run in this country. It's the lack of true support on the streets that has caused things to get as bad as they have. Why would they bother changing when only a few hit the streets and the rest sit at home or stand at the side of the street laughing at the protestors and have every single excuse under the sun ready to justify their lack of pride.

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well the last time I checked I felt real enough. If you dispute my post, then do so, not a personal attack on my status please.

what are you getting all defensive for? I wasn't "attacking" you at all. I merely asked if you are for real because you made a statement which you happily posted on a public forum to be your take on what happened in the great financial swindle.

Am I to ask my neighbour if you're for real or can I simply ask you if you really do believe what you posted??

G Power

maccored wrote: »

People should protest by not voting for the same politicians year in and year out. Come election time, the peoples 'protest' will probably get FF re-elected again - and that'll tell us just how f*cked up this country really is.

arah will ya stop sure that just means nothing changes because those who get in will be under no real obligation/threat to do the right thing. do you not get it that the people in power just go with the flow and until the ease at which this flow moves is interrupted by the people who would blame them for ignoring us as long as they could.

maccored

so you suggest vote for the usual suspects then give out afterwards. Sterling idea sir, sterling.

G Power wrote: »

arah will ya stop sure that just means nothing changes because those who get in will be under no real obligation/threat to do the right thing. do you not get it that the people in power just go with the flow and until the ease at which this flow moves is interrupted by the people who would blame them for ignoring us as long as they could.

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

what are you getting all defensive for? I wasn't "attacking" you at all. I merely asked if you are for real because you made a statement which you happily posted on a public forum to be your take on what happened in the great financial swindle.

Am I to ask my neighbour if you're for real or can I simply ask you if you really do believe what you posted??

I was merely suggesting that many people protest because they cannot or will not face up to our financial situation, which is due to the excess of the past. Do you dispute that this is the major reason for protests?

P_1

The problem is that the barriers to getting into politics are too high.

Unless those barriers are lowered the same irritating cycle will repeat itself

G Power

maccored wrote: »

so you suggest vote for the usual suspects then give out afterwards. Sterling idea sir, sterling.

when did i say that?? See how people take what they want and run with it to absolve themselves of any need to join in a real discussion.

If the people came together to protest then we may just realise we have smarter people that can run for elections but by all means we can continue to try rip holes in any sort of protest or pointing out the positives to protests happening and we will be in the very same place you speak of with a load of numpties that couldn't give a toss about anyone but themselves and their bosses

Mr.Micro

P_1 wrote: »

The problem is that the barriers to getting into politics are too high.

Unless those barriers are lowered the same irritating cycle will repeat itself

Yes indeed, family chains is one example and cronyism.

Chips Lovell

Your whole argument is predicated on the assumption that there's a silent majority out there who want something different but aren't doing anything about it yet. Yet you've failed to establish that's even the case.

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was merely suggesting that many people protest because they cannot or will not face up to our financial situation, which is due to the excess of the past. Do you dispute that this is the major reason for protests?

ok, so show me how Sarkozy, Merkel, Berlisconi, Ahearn, Cowen, George W, Blair etc are suffering now due to the "excesses" of the past and I will swallow every bit of austerity thrown at me and say nothing from here on in. Are you trying to suggest that they're only getting 200liters of home heating oil now and only having it on every second night to try stretch it out or worried how they'll afford shopping, pay the road tax etc??

View

There is nothing new about a minority lacking a democratic mandate seeking to disrupt democratic proceedings and/or seeking to prevent the representatives democratically elected by the people from speaking.

The only surprising thing about it is that posters will continue to believe that the such "anti-democrats" should be taken even remotely seriously given that the overwhelming majority of the electorate would in most cases sooner walk barefoot over broken glass than entrust the running of any governmental function to them.

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

ok, so show me how Sarkozy, Merkel, Berlisconi, Ahearn, Cowen, George W, Blair etc are suffering now due to the "excesses" of the past and I will swallow every bit of austerity thrown at me and say nothing from here on in. Are you trying to suggest that they're only getting 200liters of home heating oil now and only having it on every second night to try stretch it out or worried how they'll afford shopping, pay the road tax etc??

They will not or will probably ever suffer. You can add the bankers, developers, planners and many more to that list. It will still mean that the ordinary person carries the can as always. That is democracy for you. Not perfect, but that is what we got.

The Corinthian

G Power wrote: »

ok, so show me how Sarkozy, Merkel, Berlisconi, Ahearn, Cowen, George W, Blair etc are suffering now due to the "excesses" of the past and I will swallow every bit of austerity thrown at me and say nothing from here on in.

Oh look - it's a strawman response.

G Power

P_1 wrote: »

The problem is that the barriers to getting into politics are too high.

Unless those barriers are lowered the same irritating cycle will repeat itself

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes indeed, family chains is one example and cronyism.

the public not holding those in actual government to account is 90% of the problem in my view. Think of those in power as being spoilt two-faced brats who will deny they did anything wrong even though everyone around them knows they're guilty. Now imagine trying to break down that defense in "adults" who feel they have every right to do what they're doing cos they were elected. yet we gave them a completely different mandate than the one they're pursuing. now if they thought they couldn't go anywhere in the country without being booed and heckled and even forced out of government immediately when it becomes more than apparent that they're not in it for the good of the people they would be playing a very different game today.

P_1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes indeed, family chains is one example and cronyism.

Vested interests and lobby groups are another example.

Until we remove the power and influence that we have the same problems will happen again and again

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

They are not or will probably ever suffer. You can add the bankers, developers, planners and many more to that list. It will still mean that the ordinary person carries the can as always. That is democracy for you. Not perfect, but that is what we got.

who said it is?? those in power is it???????????? christ on a bike it's as if we love all this suffering for us and delighted the "elite" haven't a care in the world!!

P_1

P_1 wrote: »

The problem is that the barriers to getting into politics are too high.

What exactly are the barriers to standing in next year's local elections?

If you are organised enough to try to disrupt a council meeting surely you would be able pay the €100 deposit, print flyers and knock on doors.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

P_1

Deleted User wrote: »

What exactly are the barriers to standing in next year's local elections?

If you are organised enough to try to disrupt a council meeting surely you would be able pay the €100 deposit, print flyers and knock on doors.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

To be honest I wouldn't want to get into local politics myself, too many idiots to deal with

G Power

The Corinthian wrote: »

Oh look - it's a strawman response.

oh look - it's a sarcastic attempt at deflecting the fact that the people I mentioned will not be suffering like we are expected to do so.

the people argue amongst themselves while every bit of life/light and hope is being crushed for a huge section of society and you want to have every little detail explained before doing what??

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

the public not holding those in actual government to account is 90% of the problem in my view. Think of those in power as being spoilt two-faced brats who will deny they did anything wrong even though everyone around them knows they're guilty. Now imagine trying to break down that defense in "adults" who feel they have every right to do what they're doing cos they were elected. yet we gave them a completely different mandate than the one they're pursuing. now if they thought they couldn't go anywhere in the country without being booed and heckled and even forced out of government immediately when it becomes more than apparent that they're not in it for the good of the people they would be playing a very different game today.

What exactly can this Government do, when its hands are tied by the Troika and the enormous debt of the nation? What would you like to see the Government do differently?

G Power

Deleted User wrote: »

What exactly are the barriers to standing in next year's local elections?

If you are organised enough to try to disrupt a council meeting surely you would be able pay the €100 deposit, print flyers and knock on doors.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

yes and there already a large group doing so but doing it under the guise of a national campaign. again this is more proof that unless we the public show in no uncertain terms that "faux" politics is not going to wash anymore we don't have any hope of stopping more chancers from running for elections next time round.

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What exactly can this Government do, when its hands are tied by the Troika and the enormous debt of the nation? What would you like to see the Government differently?

they can ask for a writedown at the very least which is something Noonan never ever asked for. Failing that I'd do what I would do in real life on the street and tell them they can sing for it. this is the real world I'm living in, not one where banks gambling debts are somehow sacred and have to be paid back while the elected get away scot free!!

They can appoint people to extremely important positions that know what they're talking about. there's 2

The Corinthian

G Power wrote: »

oh look - it's a sarcastic attempt at deflecting the fact that the people I mentioned will not be suffering like we are expected to do so.

While yours was a strawman attempt designed to deflect from answering the question of whether the Irish people (not a hand picked selection, most of whom are not Irish) share any responsibility for the present economic situation through their overspending prior to 2008.

the people argue amongst themselves while every bit of life/light and hope is being crushed for a huge section of society and you want to have every little detail explained before doing what??

Before doing anything - fools rush in where angels fear to tread, after all.

So far you've posed a hypothesis that we're seeing the start of an uprising against the system. In response, almost everyone has rejected this, some even going so far as to point out that it is for the most part just the usual level of protest that simply transfers from FF to FG (or occasionally Labour) or vice versa. An actual core change is a lot harder to effect.

You've happily ignored these criticisms, presumably because they don't fit with your sermon. Instead you're now even criticizing people for asking questions before doing something - how stupid do you really think we all are?

As dumb as anarchists? Nah.

ressem

P_1 wrote: »

The problem is that the barriers to getting into politics are too high.

Unless those barriers are lowered the same irritating cycle will repeat itself

We've got the local elections 2014 in May or June of next year. To get on the ballot paper requires 18 people including the candidate.

The issue is that most candidates can't get people to vote for them. If you look at the boards/politics sticky on "New Party announcements", I see most are derelict sites.
Presumably during the month before the election we'll hear a few new names looking for votes based on anger at new charges. I won't be voting for any.

If an independent candidate for local elections can display a coherent list of issues and starting proposals for resolution, then they will be eligible for a fairly high place on my ballot above an incumbent.
An organisation that have the basic discipline to put together a constitution and information on what they will attempt to achieve in relevant areas helps. I can only think of two that are currently not represented in the Dail, (Greens and FisNua?)

Especially as Councillors will now be responsible for real spending.

In contrast the protesters that the OP is cheering on don't seem to have any plan other than demanding the resignations of local town councilors for no reason beyond party affiliations.

Seeing as the town councils are proposed for disbandment by Phil Hogan next year, shouting slogans during a meeting seems to achieve nothing.

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

they can ask for a writedown at the very least which is something Noonan never ever asked for. Failing that I'd do what I would do in real life on the street and tell them they can sing for it. this is the real world I'm living in, not one where banks gambling debts are somehow sacred and have to be paid back while the elected get away scot free!!

They can appoint people to extremely important positions that know what they're talking about. there's 2

So if we did that, not pay our debts, who in the world would trust us to do business with ? Where would we get loans from in the future, a small country like ours? The answer is we would be isolated and far worse off in every way.

P_1

ressem wrote: »

We've got the local elections 2014 in May or June of next year. To get on the ballot paper requires 18 people including the candidate.

The issue is that most candidates can't get people to vote for them. If you look at the boards/politics sticky on "New Party announcements", I see most are derelict sites.
Presumably during the month before the election we'll hear a few new names looking for votes based on anger at new charges. I won't be voting for any.

If an independent candidate for local elections can display a coherent list of issues and starting proposals for resolution, then they will be eligible for a fairly high place on my ballot above an incumbent.
An organisation that have the basic discipline to put together a constitution and information on what they will attempt to achieve in relevant areas helps. I can only think of two that are currently not represented in the Dail, (Greens and FisNua?)

Especially as Councillors will now be responsible for real spending.

In contrast the protesters that the OP is cheering on don't seem to have any plan other than demanding the resignations of local town councilors for no reason beyond party affiliations.

Seeing as the town councils are proposed for disbandment by Phil Hogan next year, shouting slogans during a meeting seems to achieve nothing.

Getting elected is the problem alright, as far as I can see the majority of the public are idiots and seem to only vote for whoever promises them the quickest gain

View

G Power wrote: »

the public not holding those in actual government to account is 90% of the problem in my view.

It is the prerogative of the electorate to hold politicians to account if they choose to do so. There is no obligation on them to do so.

If the electorate abdicate their responsibility to do so though, then they - whether they like it or not - will get to live with the consequences of their choice.

Try campaigning about greater accountability in the political system rather than disparaging the electorate's decisions. You don't persuade people to change if you start by insulting their choices.

G Power

View wrote: »

It is the prerogative of the electorate to hold politicians to account if they choose to do so. There is no obligation on them to do so.

and that's the problem and the "elite" love every minute of it!!

G Power

Mr.Micro wrote: »

So if we did that, not pay our debts, who in the world would trust us to do business with ? Where would we get loans from in the future, a small country like ours? The answer is we would be isolated and far worse off in every way.

that old chestnut http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/01/28/iceland-icesave-debt-euro-idINDEE90R0F120130128

Mr.Micro

G Power wrote: »

and that's the problem and the "elite" love every minute of it!!

Then its the public that needs to change. The Irish people do not like change. Many even want FF back. Do not try to apply logic to the electorate.

P_1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Then its the public that needs to change. The Irish people do not like change. Many even want FF back. Do not try to apply logic to the electorate.

That's probably the main thing holding back genuine change in this country.

How do you convince the public to change without basically calling them retards?