Great Train Rip-Off continues

daithi_dearg

Hello,

I was booking a train Cork To Dublin and I'm told that outward train can't be booked and return is €43.99.

Unless train traffic has greatly increased in recent months I find it very hard to believe it is booked out and could the fare back be regarded as normal.

Am I just wasting my time if I don't book the train 7 days in advance?

You can drive this return for about €60.

Is this completely normal?

Slán,
David

Losty Dublin

daithi_dearg wrote: »

Hello,

I was booking a train Cork To Dublin and I'm told that outward train can't be booked and return is €43.99.

Unless train traffic has greatly increased in recent months I find it very hard to believe it is booked out and could the fare back be regarded as normal.

Am I just wasting my time if I don't book the train 7 days in advance?

You can drive this return for about €60.

Online bookings close approx. 90 minutes before the departure. The discounted fares are available up till a couple of days before your trip, pretty much the same way they are on airlines.

daithi_dearg

I'm booking 6 days in advance. I'd hate to think that 43.99 is a discounted fare.

Rail is nothing like the complexity of air travel so it's nowhere near comparing like with like. I suppose my options are if I can't book 7 days in advance I can take the car but it's beyond strange that people would argue that these prices are fair.

Losty Dublin

daithi_dearg wrote: »

I'm booking 6 days in advance. I'd hate to think that 43.99 is a discounted fare.

Rail is nothing like the complexity of air travel so it's nowhere near comparing like with like. I suppose my options are if I can't book 7 days in advance I can take the car but it's beyond strange that people would argue that these prices are fair.

I don't know what train you are booking but I've a screen up here and €32.99 is the highest fare showing up for 5/6 days ahead. Make sure you haven't selected first class and make sure you have the correct date selected as well and not today's date which would make it €43.99, the standard single fare online.

LXFlyer

Possibly due to the rugby match if you are trying to book a train on Saturday?

foggy_lad

daithi_dearg wrote: »

Hello,

I was booking a train Cork To Dublin and I'm told that outward train can't be booked and return is €43.99.

Unless train traffic has greatly increased in recent months I find it very hard to believe it is booked out and could the fare back be regarded as normal.

Am I just wasting my time if I don't book the train 7 days in advance?

You can drive this return for about €60.

Is this completely normal?

Slán,
David

There are only a limited number of seats each way which can be booked and reserved. This number is dictated by the number of reserved carriages and this will be further reduced if a 22000 Dmu is used. Once the number is reached you can no longer book an outward seat but you are able to book the return journey but will not be guaranteed a seat on the outward trip.

daithi_dearg

Sorry it was €32.99 each way. I had todays date in. Nonetheless still a ripoff and I'll have to drive it so.

Also doubt it's rugby that has it high as same fare on Monday.

davidlacey

32.99 is hardly a ripoff when you would be paying 60 for petrol, but each to their own, Try living in England and seeing how much a london to Newcastle ticket is and come back and compare!

Richard Logue

If you book London - Manchester for this coming Saturday its £77.30 IE is still cheaper for the equivalent journey to Cork

devnull

As I posted previously:
It seems that there are now peak exclusions that apply where the advertised online fare is not available however far booked in advance.

From the Irish Rail Facebook
Poster: All fares to Cork on Friday afternoons between 3pm and 7pm are €32.99 no matter how far in advance they are booked???
Reply: Some peak exclusions apply. It Eil chop and change with demand and events.

In that case i would strongly suggest considering GoBe and Aircoach which take 3 hours city center to city center non stop with fares from €9 on Aircoach and €12 on GoBE if booked ahead. If you walk up it'll be €15 single on Aircoach €22 return or €17 single €27 return on GoBE.

bk

davidlacey wrote: »

32.99 is hardly a ripoff when you would be paying 60 for petrol, but each to their own, Try living in England and seeing how much a london to Newcastle ticket is and come back and compare!

I had a friend who flew from Newcastle UK to Dublin this weekend, booked just a week before. Cost €50 return and took just one hour!! Cheaper and faster then the train to Cork.

As Devnull pointed out, another much cheaper option is the bus, just €18 return if booked online with Aircoach, journey time just 3 hours.

Again we see that this new policy is bad news for Irish Rail. Another Corkonian friend of mine living in Dublin switched from Irish Rail to bus this weekend after they implemented this policy.

Polar101

Book early, pay more, or don't take the train - pretty simple I guess. Cork is pretty far, it doesn't seem particularly expensive to me if ~ €35 is the most you'll pay for the trip. Especially since cheaper options are available, too.

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

I had a friend who flew from Newcastle UK to Dublin this weekend, booked just a week before. Cost €50 return and took just one hour!! Cheaper and faster then the train to Cork.

As Devnull pointed out, another much cheaper option is the bus, just €18 return if booked online with Aircoach, journey time just 3 hours.

Again we see that this new policy is bad news for Irish Rail. Another Corkonian friend of mine living in Dublin switched from Irish Rail to bus this weekend after they implemented this policy.

it may be cheap in advance but correct me if i am wrong but did some unfortunate not have to pay 320£ return on the day as seen on the show on bbc2 a few weeks ago

markpb

Richard Logue wrote: »

If you book London - Manchester for this coming Saturday its £77.30 IE is still cheaper for the equivalent journey to Cork

It's much cheaper but also at least 50% slower than the British train. If I've done the maths right, the fastest Dublin to Cork trip averages 100kph while the London to Manchester trip averages 150kph.

davidlacey wrote: »

it may be cheap in advance but correct me if i am wrong but did some unfortunate not have to pay 320£ return on the day as seen on the show on bbc2 a few weeks ago

It's true right now! The most expensive return for London to Manchester departing this evening is £308. On the other hand, there are trains every 20 minutes and the price very quickly falls to £77 if you're willing to wait 1h20. The spike in the price seems to be down to discouraging walk up fares at rush hour leaving London which is probably quite sensible.

bk

Polar101 wrote: »

Book early, pay more, or don't take the train - pretty simple I guess. Cork is pretty far, it doesn't seem particularly expensive to me if ~ €35 is the most you'll pay for the trip. Especially since cheaper options are available, too.

The most you will pay for a train fare to Cork is €62 single, €79.50 open return!!

Obviously these are walk up fares. BTW the walk up Aircoach return fare is €22

The cheapest fare to cork, if you book more then 7 days in advance is €43 return. Aircoach is €18 for the same.

Now lets make a realistic booking, say head to Cork this Friday and back Sunday. Booking online right now (Tuesday) is €69 return!! Again Aircoach is €18

I think Irish Rail have lost all sense, with this new 7 days advance booking, they will be losing a lot of customers to Aircoach/GoBE IMO.

Polar101

bk wrote: »

The most you will pay for a train fare to Cork is €62 single, €79.50 open return!!

Yep, but that's the 'stupid people' supplement - should be even higher in my opinion, same with cash fares on buses.

bk

Polar101 wrote: »

Yep, but that's the 'stupid people' supplement - should be even higher in my opinion, same with cash fares on buses.

Well I most be one of those "stupid" people because I've just decided now to head down to Cork this evening.

Difference is I'll only be paying €22 return when I stroll up to the Aircoach bus and pay the driver.

Not everyone can plan a week in advance when travelling around Ireland. At least now we have alternative much cheaper and more flexible options.

dowlingm

markpb wrote: »

It's much cheaper but also at least 50% slower than the British train. If I've done the maths right, the fastest Dublin to Cork trip averages 100kph while the London to Manchester trip averages 150kph.

Also electrified which does cost a few bob.

bk

bk wrote: »

Well I most be one of those "stupid" people because I've just decided now to head down to Cork this evening.

On the bus now and writing this using the wifi. Bus almost full, so it seems many people agree with me.

Richard Logue

I'm sure you'll enjoy the trip. Maybe you can have a nice hot cup of coffee?

Hilly Bill

still on bus bk?

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

I'm sure you'll enjoy the trip. Maybe you can have a nice hot cup of coffee?

You'd want to be hard up for coffee to pay irish rail the best part of €50 for a miserable Paper cup of cheap catering coffee. Maybe it's being served/waited on that's the attratcion?

Richard Logue

foggy_lad wrote: »

You'd want to be hard up for coffee to pay irish rail the best part of €50 for a miserable Paper cup of cheap catering coffee. Maybe it's being served/waited on that's the attratcion?

The advance fare To Cork is under €40 not €50.

Irish Rail coffee isn't that bad and it's fair trade. There are many reasons why people like to take the train, being able to drink coffee is an advantage but it isn't the biggest advantage. The comfort and ability to get up, walk and do work in comfort is another.

We all have choices. What suits one person may not suit another. Some people prefer to drive long distances, for financial or personal reasons, some people prefer the long distance buses, some people prefer the train.

Luckily we have a free society where individuals should be free to make their own choices.

bk

Richard Logue wrote: »

The advance fare To Cork is under €40 not €50.

It is €43 including the online booking fee and cc fee. Plus add another €3.20 for Luas to and from Hueston, so you will end up close to €50.

Richard Logue wrote: »

Irish Rail coffee isn't that bad and it's fair trade. There are many reasons why people like to take the train, being able to drink coffee is an advantage but it isn't the biggest advantage. The comfort and ability to get up, walk and do work in comfort is another.

I bought a lovely coffee in the Starbucks just next to the Aircoach stop before I left, so yes, I did enjoy my coffee, cheaper and better then what you get on the train.

I also bought a sandwich in the Tesco just next to it. So far cheaper then buying on the train.

I agree that the train has an advantage in that you can get up and walk around.

But the bus also has it's advantages. The major one for me is you can sleep on it. Just after we left Dublin, the driver turned off the interior lights. With most lights off, the reclining seats and the very smooth and quiet ride, it is very easy to sleep on the bus

I was never able to sleep on the train. Lights on full blast at all times, seats don't recline, constant stupid loud announcements and a very bumpy and noisy ride (in comparison).

Richard Logue wrote: »

We all have choices. What suits one person may not suit another. Some people prefer to drive long distances, for financial or personal reasons, some people prefer the long distance buses, some people prefer the train.

Luckily we have a free society where individuals should be free to make their own choices.

I agree completely choice is good and if it was the case of the train user paying the full cost of the train ticket, then I would have zero objection.

What I object to is that the train is very heavily subsidised. I'm paying for your preference to get up and walk around !!

Now I have no objection to my tax money going to subsidise things I don't use my self, as long as there is a logical social or economic reason to do so.

I don't see any social or economic reason to continue to heavily subsidise intercity rail, when bus services are just as fast, offer a more comprehensive service (timetable) and require no subsidy.

And no, being able to get up and walk around is not a justification. If you want to use the train, then you should be paying the full cost of it.

HivemindXX

I love this fact that despite this thread being based on wrong information it still continues on.

Personally I far prefer the train to the bus so thanks for the money BK although I feel that I have more than earned it listening to the bitching and moaning of yourself and Foggy.

n0brain3r

I have to agree the ticket price is just making rail so unattractive plus if you've ever been unlucky enough to have been held hostage for hours while a break down or signal fault is fixed its enough to put you off traveling by rail ever again considering the flexibility of the alternatives.

Don't get me wrong I'm a rail fan and choose rail over road whenever possible but I'm also a realist and the sums just don't add up.

Did the fares increase in the last month?

I bought a day return from Sallins to Heuston in February for 11.70 and today the same ticket is 14.60?

Losty Dublin

HivemindXX wrote: »

I love this fact that despite this thread being based on wrong information it still continues on.

Personally I far prefer the train to the bus so thanks for the money BK although I feel that I have more than earned it listening to the bitching and moaning of yourself and Foggy.

Frankly, I'd gladly go on the train if it means I'd avoid sitting beside the likes of them on a long haul trip

Hilly Bill

The fares didnt increase. Double check with them in Heuston as to what the correct fare should be and why the different prices.

Hilly Bill

If you are going to Cork one way then why is the return fare on Luas mentioned? Why even mention it at all when it has nothing to do with the fare of Dublin to Cork

Them stupid load announcements stop you from missing your stop when you fall asleep.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

You'd want to be hard up for coffee to pay irish rail the best part of €50 for a miserable Paper cup of cheap catering coffee. Maybe it's being served/waited on that's the attratcion?

What? The best part of €50 for a coffee Foggy? You sure now? is that a typo?

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.raileasy.co.uk
Sail & rail - prices for tomorrow.
€59 will get you from Cork to Aberdeen (6 changes :pac:)

I'm not sure if you can actually pick up the tickets in Cork though.

Judgement Day

Good value but why on earth would anybody want to go to Aberdeen? I can understand the getting out of Cork bit.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you are going to Cork one way then why is the return fare on Luas mentioned? Why even mention it at all when it has nothing to do with the fare of Dublin to Cork

I was talking all return fares. Cheapest return fare to Cork is €18 Aircoach, €43 Irish Rail booked 7 days in advance.

The Luas does count, as Aircoach brings you right into O'Conell St, where most people (myself included) are going.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Them stupid load announcements stop you from missing your stop when you fall asleep.

Which is irrelevant if you are just going Cork to Dublin end to end and want to sleep.

I'm just pointing out the pro's and con's between the services.

Unlike some people here, I actually do regularly take this journey and I'm pointing out the pro's and con's that make me choice the train/bus.

Personally I get the bus to and from O'Connell St to complete my journey, so the extra cost, time and effort of the Luas does play a part in my choice of service.

Also I honestly find the bus more comfortable then the train due to the reclining seats, smoother and quieter ride and thus being able to sleep on it.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What? The best part of €50 for a coffee Foggy? You sure now? is that a typo?

I'm sure the point that foggy was making is that it is ridiculous to pay 2.5 to 6 times the cost of a coach ticket just so you can buy an over-expensive and average coffee.

It was in response to the suggestion that I couldn't buy a coffee on the bus. Which is true, but then instead I just bought a cheaper and much better coffee before getting on the bus.

Capt'n Midnight

how about this ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056895709

€10 Flights From Cork To Gdańsk
"They're coming from Gdańsk to see the film!!"

bk

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

how about this ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056895709

Yup, an amazing deal, Gdansk/Sopot/Gydnia are very nice with lovely people (and great public transport). I was there 5 times last year!! I highly recommend it.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

I was talking all return fares. Cheapest return fare to Cork is €18 Aircoach, €43 Irish Rail booked 7 days in advance.

The Luas does count, as Aircoach brings you right into O'Conell St, where most people (myself included) are going.



Which is irrelevant if you are just going Cork to Dublin end to end and want to sleep.

I'm just pointing out the pro's and con's between the services.

Unlike some people here, I actually do regularly take this journey and I'm pointing out the pro's and con's that make me choice the train/bus.

Personally I get the bus to and from O'Connell St to complete my journey, so the extra cost, time and effort of the Luas does play a part in my choice of service.

Also I honestly find the bus more comfortable then the train due to the reclining seats, smoother and quieter ride and thus being able to sleep on it.



I'm sure the point that foggy was making is that it is ridiculous to pay 2.5 to 6 times the cost of a coach ticket just so you can buy an over-expensive and average coffee.

It was in response to the suggestion that I couldn't buy a coffee on the bus. Which is true, but then instead I just bought a cheaper and much better coffee before getting on the bus.

If you go by that logic then why not include the bus fare out into the suburbs or the price of petrol from home to the car park in heuston or from the outback of Cork to the station.
The announcements may be irrelevant to you but you wouldnt be the only on on that train that goes all the way to Cork.
Nobody suggested to get the train just for the coffee but thats its available if you want it.
Its an old argument at this stage, its horses for courses and people wont be happy until every available transport option is there for them outside their front door for free.
The fare to Cork is expensive but not a rip off .

steamengine

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport. Clearly a low profit margin, bus/coach ticket doesn't allow for these costs, so in effect the Intercity bus traveller is subsidised as well.

While the following report is complex - comparisons on the various charts are readily comprehendable, along with the total figures for each transport mode.

The total external costs for 2008 per Irish inhabitant are given in Table 19 - €839. Rail only accounts for €11 of that amount.

http://ecocalc-test.ecotransit.org/CE_Delft_4215_External_Costs_of_Transport_in_Europe_def.pdf

Judgement Day

Yes, and we won't even bring in the estimated cost of annual road deaths to the equation. There's an old report which gives some figures here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:FpmCnYlWRi0J:rsa.ie/Documents/About%2520Us/JOC%252005%2520Submission.doc+cost+of+road+deaths&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjZQXnqp_Ecs4yWygwfpigMzkWL_Jf_P7J_8TmS6Q9PPt0byfvCLDd9uIf17H9YdswgKXbkXlIFTEJ-8vcVO1JVlVfGQKMeyhywXwP51DbJ_RkvlKdNLQTIyGcjZE00VdpCf4bo&sig=AHIEtbQVitx5vkqnkPx5EfMVRRCx7WNp-w

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you go by that logic then why not include the bus fare out into the suburbs or the price of petrol from home to the car park in heuston or from the outback of Cork to the station.

I do, as a traveller I include all the costs and time.

For me the costs are by bus:

- €1.90 bus ticket into/out O'Connell St
- €18 bus ticket

By Train:
- €1.90 bus ticket into/out O'Connell St
- €1.60 Luas to Hueston
- €43 or more train ticket

I'm walking distance in Cork.

I also spend less time travelling in total by bus then by train. In the past I made sure to arrive a good 30 minutes before train departure. So I wouldn't miss it, plus the extra time for Luas.

With the bus, I leave much later, because if I miss it, it doesn't cost me anything to get the next bus, unlike with rail.

steamengine wrote: »

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport.

A straw mans argument, even if we didn't have buses, we would still have roads and would still have to subsidise their construction, etc.

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

Buses simply make good, cheap use of an existing resource.

Rails get built in addition to roads and have to justify themselves on that basis.

It also ignores the billions in road tax, VRT, car VAT, fuel duty, etc. brought in by roads.

Hilly Bill

It doesnt cost you anything to get a later train if you havent got a reservation for the earlier one.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

A straw mans argument, even if we didn't have buses, we would still have roads and would still have to subsidise their construction, etc.

That's refreshing - roads are subsidised ??? - plus then on top of that, the externalities, not to mention the annual slaughter and serious injuries.

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

I never said it did and again you seem to have difficulty with the notion that both modes are normal to first world countries.

Buses simply make good, cheap use of an existing resource.

Yes indeed but cheapest doesn't mean best !!! Safety stats for rail are well ahead of road - touch wood of course. Not everybody wants to simulate sardines when they travel inter-city either. I personally avoid long distance buses as I find them claustrophobic.

Rails get built in addition to roads and have to justify themselves on that basis.

They have continuously over a period of nearly two hundred years. They weren't built for fun nor should they be readily discarded just because there is currently a deep recession.

It also ignores the billions in road tax, VRT, car VAT, fuel duty, etc. brought in by roads.

Indeed a cash cow if ever there was one - pity a lot of the money is then effectively cancelled out because of these 'straw man' externalities, as you deem them to be.

foggy_lad

@hilly bill It does cost extra if as you reccomend people buy online in advance! A later train will cost €10 extra while changing the date will mean you need to buy a new ticket!

Richard Logue

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

That's a very strange argument, not one I've heard before to be honest.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

@hilly bill It does cost extra if as you reccomend people buy online in advance! A later train will cost €10 extra while changing the date will mean you need to buy a new ticket!

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

Which means you have to pay €79 return !!

The "slaughter on the roads" is an issue with car travel. But rail won't solve it, are you really suggesting we close down all roads and replace them with rail? !!

Anyway accidents on roads will be massively decreased over the next couple of decades as we move towards computer driven cars. In fact, self driven electric cars will likely have a massive effect on all public transport, both rail and bus, but that is a discussion that I will keep for a separate thread.

Tragedy

steamengine wrote: »

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport. Clearly a low profit margin, bus/coach ticket doesn't allow for these costs, so in effect the Intercity bus traveller is subsidised as well.

While the following report is complex - comparisons on the various charts are readily comprehendable, along with the total figures for each transport mode.

The total external costs for 2008 per Irish inhabitant are given in Table 19 - €839. Rail only accounts for €11 of that amount.

http://ecocalc-test.ecotransit.org/CE_Delft_4215_External_Costs_of_Transport_in_Europe_def.pdf

Strange that you glossed over Table 18(that attempts to quantify the external costs per 1,000km travelled to give a level playing field for comparisons).
I wonder why that might possibly be?

Is it because Bus/Coach is €36.6 per 1,000 km as compared to €23.4 for rail transport?

Why yes, I do think that's why you cherrypicked an utterly meaningless statistic and completely ignored the salient one

foggy_lad

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

So which is it to be then? Should we buy online and pay more or buy in the boking office and pay more?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

So which is it to be then? Should we buy online and pay more or buy in the boking office and pay more?[/QUOTE

What?????

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Which means you have to pay €79 return !!

The "slaughter on the roads" is an issue with car travel. But rail won't solve it, are you really suggesting we close down all roads and replace them with rail? !!

Anyway accidents on roads will be massively decreased over the next couple of decades as we move towards computer driven cars. In fact, self driven electric cars will likely have a massive effect on all public transport, both rail and bus, but that is a discussion that I will keep for a separate thread.

I know what the fares are , the reply was to the €10 charge for getting an earlier train after booking online. If you have a day return ticket bought at the station on the day then you can travel on any service between your chosen destinations.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

we close down all roads and replace them with rail

if i had my way, never mind

end of the road

bk wrote: »

what I object to is that the train is very heavily subsidised.

so is the bus indirectly.

bk wrote: »

I'm paying for your preference to get up and walk around

so is he, its called taxes and a train fair

bk wrote: »

Now I have no objection to my tax money going to subsidise things I don't use my self, as long as there is a logical social or economic reason to do so.

which their is for rail, cramed into a rickity old bus might be fine for you which is fine but for me and others we expect higher standards when traveling long distances which the bus can't and will never meet.

bk wrote: »

I don't see any social or economic reason to continue to heavily subsidise intercity rail

it has more potential to be faster then the buss but, the government is deliberately making sure we'l stay stuck at the same stone age speeds, while improving the roads for their state cars, oh wait its helychopters these days isn't it?

bk wrote: »

when bus services are just as fast, offer a more comprehensive service (timetable) and require no subsidy.

not a good enough reason not to subsidise rail, busses are indirectly subsidised via road tax (and i'm sure more of our tax is going toards the roads as well) and from my experience the busses aren't just as fast, the only thing the bus has going for it is the cheep fairs and should you want to go to a speciffic place it will bring you there if its on its route, but if your not going to oconnell street (which in my case i never really) then the train is the best mode, should the railways close i'l be emigrating.

bk wrote: »

And no, being able to get up and walk around is not a justification. If you want to use the train, then you should be paying the full cost of it.

he does, its called taxes and a train fair as i mentioned earlier.