Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

Iseedeadpixels

It's international day of the girl, I've already had enough of the radio telling me how Women in Ireland have it so tough :rolleyes:

Calhoun

Working in India at the moment , the ladies by law are forbidden to leave company presence after 8 pm without security. Even in cases where the husband works with the wife.

So yeah ladies in Ireland have it hard.

sharper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I only take issue when they get the energy together to do something, then just blame feminism rather than actually do anything.

Why in particular when men do it?

The twitter discourse would be similar to the way I imagine any other twitter discourse. Polarised and nasty. I don't bother with twitter. It gives me a headache to look at it so I wouldn't be best place from comment. Generally it would be very similar to any other movement. Those who oppose it or support the status quo would be on the other side. I imagine if you asked the activists of almost any movement what it's like to be on the leading edge, they'd say they endure dogs abuse. That's reality. I wouldn't like it but that's the way the world is.

So if men were to try and organise and solve the issues you've mentioned society in general and self identified feminists would be very likely to criticise, disparage and even demonise them for doing so.

If you were in a situation where you had problems signifigantly impacting your life but you also had people constantly telling you how easy you have it, how you don't know what problems are compared to group [X] and also these same people are likely to resist any attempt you make to get those issues addressed would all this not make you angry?

El_Duderino 09

sharper wrote: »

Why in particular when men do it?

Not only when men do it. It wouldn't be appropriate to discuss environmental issues in this forum though.

sharper wrote: »

So if men were to try and organise and solve the issues you've mentioned society in general and self identified feminists would be very likely to criticise, disparage and even demonise them for doing so.

I imagine so. As I said above, it's probably similar for anyone at the leading edge of a movement. I'd say they get fogs abuse. Rape and death threats are par for the course these days I understand. Do yes I'd imagine the people leading the men's rights movement would be targeted.

sharper wrote: »

If you were in a situation where you had problems signifigantly impacting your life but you also had people constantly telling you how easy you have it, how you don't know what problems are compared to group [X] and also these same people are likely to resist any attempt you make to get those issues addressed would all this not make you angry?

I doubt anyone can really know what it's like to be another gender/race etc. So I imagine it's a dimple case of 'far away hills are greener'. I don't really know how to compare the various social and biological pressures among the genders. I wouldn't say one or the other has it easier because I don't know. I imagine it goes on a lot though. And I imagine it would be annoying. That's life. Changing things is hard.

ligerdub

The Twitter discourse is fairly standard fare for the overall discussion regardless of the medium. It is acceptable nowhere. If you see anyone who goes onto a tv show or the like and is some sort of representative for men's rights issue you can guarantee the host will try some sort of demeaning put-down or an effort to attribute some negative character trait to them. It's seen as very much as unjustifiable, almost comical cause. It's very much an uncool thing for want of a better phrase. To give a good example of this, if you step out of line of the twitter masses they will show your work to their friends for open derision, and these views aren't off the wall stuff. These guys are seen as the "good guys" too by the way, the hearts and minds are with these people.

The MRA's are thrown in with all sorts of other tags, notably things like white supremacy and the like. It is the facile argument of wanting to keep the status quo, and therefore that also means racial status. The reality is these guys want a CHANGE and not some sort of throwback to "the good old days".

I know it's only one anecdote but I've no reason to doubt it's likely prevalence throughout the debate but (although I've not seen the movie) the trailer from the Red Pill movie has a protest for men's-rights interrupted by a group basically slandering them. Imagine the reverse scenario there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK7n_XA40V8

So this goes perhaps a step further than the idea of the cause being unjustifiable, it's an attempt to make it seem dangerous.

I was listening to the radio there earlier and apparently it's "International Day of the Girl" day today. How many times can we squeeze the same point into the mix exactly? Apparently quite a few companies have invited in young girls to come in and play the boss for the morning and give them a sense of power, particularly in roles where women are typically a smaller share of the workforce.

I can't imagine a scenario where ABC Corp invite in little Johnny to rule the roost over the company just so they build up his self-esteem. If I were a young lad now I'd have to hope to not be clued in to the world around me because I could only assume than nobody cares about my future if I were.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I only take issue when they get the energy together to do something, then just blame feminism rather than actually do anything.

Imagine my shock when I saw no listing of the important issues for men and your own suggestions on how to resolve them. After all, you did suggest that our own problems with sexism were trivial. Instead, just a number of more posts criticising other peoples opinions. True to form, and all that. :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine my shock when I saw no listing of the important issues for men and your own suggestions on how to resolve them. After all, you did suggest that our own problems with sexism were trivial. Instead, just a number of more posts criticising other peoples opinions. True to form, and all that. :rolleyes:

Taken from my post no. 6821
"There are some serious issues which need to be addressed including but not limited to health (mental and physical) education, employment, treatment in the legal system, fathers rights, sexual orientation, social pressures and freedom of expression"

You asked what can be done apart from getting up off your arse. I'd say there are a couple of things that would help. One would be to form a coherent idea of priorities and give people an idea of what the men's rights movement is about. That would be helped by calling out wacky ideas when they arise so they can't be seen as part of the movement. I'd also suggest separating men's rights from feminism bashing.

An argument that focuses on 'lots of fathers want to be involved with their children but the laws make it very difficult for them...' will be more successful than 'feminists are basically trying to relegate men to second class citizens...'

Of course, actually doing things would be more useful but you asked for things that you could do without actually lobbying etc.

El_Duderino 09

ligerdub wrote: »

The Twitter discourse is fairly standard fare for the overall discussion regardless of the medium. It is acceptable nowhere. If you see anyone who goes onto a tv show or the like and is some sort of representative for men's rights issue you can guarantee the host will try some sort of demeaning put-down or an effort to attribute some negative character trait to them. It's seen as very much as unjustifiable, almost comical cause. It's very much an uncool thing for want of a better phrase. To give a good example of this, if you step out of line of the twitter masses they will show your work to their friends for open derision, and these views aren't off the wall stuff. These guys are seen as the "good guys" too by the way, the hearts and minds are with these people.

Ghandi famously said;
'First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win'.

He didn't say first they agree with you, then they buy you a pint, then you win. Do you think any change movement has it easy? Every concession is earned and paid for by the activists.

ligerdub wrote: »

The MRA's are thrown in with all sorts of other tags, notably things like white supremacy and the like. It is the facile argument of wanting to keep the status quo, and therefore that also means racial status. The reality is these guys want a CHANGE and not some sort of throwback to "the good old days".

The loonies aren't challenged. Housekeeping is necessary in any movement. Look at what you think of feminism and how much of that is down to the loonies on the extreme end. The same goes for any movement.

ligerdub wrote: »

I was listening to the radio there earlier and apparently it's "International Day of the Girl" day today. How many times can we squeeze the same point into the mix exactly? Apparently quite a few companies have invited in young girls to come in and play the boss for the morning and give them a sense of power, particularly in roles where women are typically a smaller share of the workforce.

I can't imagine a scenario where ABC Corp invite in little Johnny to rule the roost over the company just so they build up his self-esteem. If I were a young lad now I'd have to hope to not be clued in to the world around me because I could only assume than nobody cares about my future if I were.

It's not the same but my work does a scheme where they bring in 4 students from a school in a deprived area. They give them work experience for 2weeks. You can usually spot them a mile off because they look and behave differently. I'd say the main thing they learn during the work experience, is how to fit into the corporate world. How to look and how to behave. I, as a middle class man, didn't feel aggrieved by bringing in underprivileged people.

I imagine the thinking is the same with bringing in women. To take them out of their normal social structure and show them what's needed to be at the top of a business.

ligerdub

This wasn't work experience, they weren't women, they were children. They weren't there to do actual work, do a bit of the castoff work from other staff, but as a for a simulation of being a "boss".

Everyone should do, and normally does, work experience, which is something entirely different and entirely less glamourous and celebrated let's be honest. I'm glad you're middle class status wasn't offended by sharing a workplace with the deprived class.

El_Duderino 09

ligerdub wrote: »

This wasn't work experience, they weren't women, they were children. They weren't there to do actual work, do a bit of the castoff work from other staff, but as a for a simulation of being a "boss".

Everyone should do, and normally does, work experience, which is something entirely different and entirely less glamourous and celebrated let's be honest. I'm glad you're middle class status wasn't offended by sharing a workplace with the deprived class.

Should I call this post a disingenuous, deliberate misunderstanding of my point?

The point was that the benefit was for the people who saw how it works to be in the environment. That pony is completely transferable. The middle class point, which I think you wilfully misunderstood, was that I didn't get offended that they weren't giving the benefit to 'my people'. But the people they gave it to probably did benefit so I think it was a good programme.

El_Duderino 09

Point, not pony

Carlos Orange

No

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Should I call this post a disingenuous, deliberate misunderstanding of my point?

The point was that the benefit was for the people who saw how it works to be in the environment.

What help does your company give to boys in areas where boys are under represented such as HR or college graduation?

El_Duderino 09

psinno wrote: »

What help does your company give to boys in areas where boys are under represented such as HR or college graduation?

No idea. I don't know of any gender based work experience programmes. I'd support it if they run a programme like that.

What's your point?

Carlos Orange

No

Everyone gets help applying to join the police force except the usual suspects.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/11/british-transport-police-bans-white-men-from-its-recruitment-workshops-6992490/

Outlaw Pete

How can someone be so intelligent (academically speaking at least) and yet simultaneously be an idiot.


https://twitter.com/gedankenstuecke/status/917789808126300161

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

This happened to me, personally, the other day.

I went into a chemist to buy some medicine for my son, he had a snotty cold and needs something to help him sleep at night.

Pharmacist came out to me and said

"Tell her not to give this with other paracetemol medicine, like Calpol"

Me:

Saruhashi

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

How can someone be so intelligent (academically speaking at least) and yet simultaneously be an idiot.
https://twitter.com/gedankenstuecke/status/917789808126300161

It makes me laugh at how awfully bad their PR is.

I am pretty sure if you are looking for help from someone then one of the worst ways to begin is by saying "hey, shut up".

Shut up. Listen to women. Now, help women.

Does the author of this piece genuinely think they can solve the problems for women in STEM or are they just looking for pats on the back for acting as though they are solving the problem?

Tea drinker

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

How can someone be so intelligent (academically speaking at least) and yet simultaneously be an idiot.


https://twitter.com/gedankenstuecke/status/917789808126300161

Known as IYI, Intellectual Yet Idiot.

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

How can someone be so intelligent (academically speaking at least) and yet simultaneously be an idiot.

Academic qualifications are not like they used to be. The quality of education and actual knowledge of graduates has dropped significantly.

I've worked at University level, and I've met language professors who could barely speak the language of their PHD, and MBA professors who couldn't explain what diversification was. :rolleyes:

I've met far more knowledgeable people who had failed or never went to University, than those who graduated (even with high GPA's).

gizmo555

Deleted User wrote: »

Academic qualifications are not like they used to be. The quality of education and actual knowledge of graduates has dropped significantly.

I always remember in this kind of context a story an academic friend told me a few years ago. He was working in a UK university and was chatting one afternoon in the lab to a PhD student he was supervising and for some reason he mentioned the name of Christopher Columbus in the course of their conversation. To his amazement, he realised this doctoral student did not know who Columbus was.

As my friend said of the student, "he's very highly trained, but you couldn't call him educated."

gizmo555

The Indo reports today on Marta Herda, who ruthlessly murdered her ex-boyfriend by deliberately driving her car at high speed into Arklow Harbour, knowing he couldn't swim.

She lost her appeal against her conviction this week and the Indo article, headlined 'She feels guilty but didn't mean to do it' - Waitress crying in jail after murder conviction appeal fails says she is crying behind bars, sure she will be “staying in prison until the end of her life”.

If the roles were reversed and the man was the murderer, would anyone give a damn about his distress? Why should anyone care about hers?

py2006

gizmo555 wrote: »

The Indo reports today on Marta Herda, who ruthlessly murdered her ex-boyfriend by deliberately driving her car at high speed into Arklow Harbour, knowing he couldn't swim.

She lost her appeal against her conviction this week and the Indo article, headlined 'She feels guilty but didn't mean to do it' - Waitress crying in jail after murder conviction appeal fails says she is crying behind bars, sure she will be “staying in prison until the end of her life”.

If the roles were reversed and the man was the murderer, would anyone give a damn about his distress? Why should anyone care about hers?

You often read when women do bad that they are "going through a bad time" alright. Definitely more sympathy offered to women.

ligerdub

gizmo555 wrote: »

The Indo reports today on Marta Herda, who ruthlessly murdered her ex-boyfriend by deliberately driving her car at high speed into Arklow Harbour, knowing he couldn't swim.

She lost her appeal against her conviction this week and the Indo article, headlined 'She feels guilty but didn't mean to do it' - Waitress crying in jail after murder conviction appeal fails says she is crying behind bars, sure she will be “staying in prison until the end of her life”.

If the roles were reversed and the man was the murderer, would anyone give a damn about his distress? Why should anyone care about hers?

Pretty standard stuff really, sure when those two women decapitated a man (I can't remember the association) and threw his body into a canal they were almost comically referred to as the "Scissor Sisters".

On this particular issue I'm not sure how they can defend her actions. It was a horrifically cruel act and is guilty as sin. I've heard her associates say they are willing to take this to the highest court possible. On what basis are they defending her? I couldn't imagine his mates going on tv and expecting sympathy had it been the other way around.

(I see they've removed the comments facility on their site entirely - much like RTE do for their culture section, which is pretty much the usual....ah I won't go there actually - so they'll be able to bash out this sort of nonsense freely)

Hector Savage

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture

HEY MEN!!!

Yes you MEN ... you're all pigs blah blah ....

Can you IMAGINE an article starting of "hey Women ...." followed by all sorts og generalizations ... the journalists career would be OVER.

givyjoe

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture

HEY MEN!!!

Yes you MEN ... you're all pigs blah blah ....

Can you IMAGINE an article starting of "hey Women ...." followed by all sorts og generalizations ... the journalists career would be OVER.

Quite a few wtf's to some of those points but two I've picked out..

"..If a woman says no to a date, don’t ask her again...
..If a woman has not given an enthusiastic “yes” to sex, back the hell off..."

Seriously, how many long term relationships would never have existed if point 1 was followed (by men or women. Obviously neither gender should hound the other for a date, but there is a no, not right now!

And point 2, just wtf.. so if she says yes.. but doesn't do it while doing her best Meg Ryan impression, don't do anything..?! How many men or women have given a less than enthusiastic yes to their long term partner.. Christ.

py2006

Notice a lot of male comments have been deleted. I am assuming they are calling her out.

Iseedeadpixels

I actually agree with this one

Don’t use your “feminism” as a way to get women to trust you. Show us in your day-to-day life, not in your self-congratulatory social media.

So many desperate lads out there pulling the "I'm a feminist" line to make women like them better.

H3llR4iser

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture

HEY MEN!!!

Yes you MEN ... you're all pigs blah blah ....

Can you IMAGINE an article starting of "hey Women ...." followed by all sorts og generalizations ... the journalists career would be OVER.

Letting go of the initial picture, which is worth more than a 1000 words, the very first line sets the tone:

Talk to your friend who is “kind of a creep” at work.

I've hardly ever heard a guy calling another man (nor a woman) "a creep"...also, I frankly can't figure out how that relates to the rest of the tantrum...ehr, "article".

Glossing over all the rest, this comment is probably the best of the whole thing:

"Especially as I assume the majority of guys who click on the headline do so because they think "I better read this in case there's something bad I'm doing that hasn't occurred to me". The problem with articles like this is that you end up shouting at the people who are already on your side, while the bad people don't read them."

Absolutely on point - the title "clickbaits" men into reading; Most of those doing, are likely going in with good intentions - only to be lambasted into kingdom come. It seems very clear to me that a certain proportion of the "feminist movement", incidentally the most vocal and most catered for in the media, really looks for nothing else than generate attrition, resentment and division; I don't see how that's gonna help anyone.

I try to ignore all of this unfathomable noise, seeing that fortunately, for now at least, women I am around in real life are way smarter and tougher than the "news screechers", being well able to take care of themselves without needing "protection"...or for a "empowered male" to butt in and tell another guy to shut up and let her speak.

Yet I have to wonder when, not if, something I'll say or do in a natural way will be seen as "sexist"; For example...I have a couple of direct reports at work, one of them is a lady; she just completed a fairly annoying and complex task and absolutely aced it. Could have never matched the quality of the work myself, end of. I instinctively complimented her on doing an exceptional job...but you have to wonder, there could have been women who'd take that as an "insult" and thought I meant "good job...for a woman".

Calhoun

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

I actually agree with this one



So many desperate lads out there pulling the "I'm a feminist" line to make women like them better.

I believe at the moment on twitter there is a war going on as a male feminist has been accused and has admitted to sexually molesting a few women. From the looks of it this guy was your atypical hard line male feminist who was very vocal on twitter condemning others.

I am sure there are guys who really believe in feminist ideology and are respectful but anecdotally i have seen allot of womanizers use it as way to make women like them better.

Carlos Orange

No

Calhoun wrote: »

I am sure there are guys who really believe in feminist ideology and are respectful but anecdotally i have seen allot of womanizers use it as way to make women like them better.

I imagine every way you can virtue signal is used by some people to virtue signal.

Calhoun

psinno wrote: »

I imagine every way you can virtue signal is used by some people to virtue signal.

Exactly why everyone no matter political persuasion should be aware of wolves in sheeps clothing .

Heart Break Kid

Worked in a retail clothes shop. Was applying for supervisor role. I did get it but not before being told that "the company doesn't ussually promote guys, we're not completely sure we can trust you but we'll trial it".

backspin.

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Worked in a retail clothes shop. Was applying for supervisor role. I did get it but not before being told that "the company doesn't ussually promote guys, we're not completely sure we can trust you but we'll trial it".

Did you ask them what they meant?

backspin.

backspin. wrote: »

Did you ask them what they meant?

Agreed. I'd be inclined to ask what they meant by that.

El_Duderino 09

Heart Break Kid wrote:

Worked in a retail clothes shop. Was applying for supervisor role. I did get it but not before being told that "the company doesn't ussually promote guys, we're not completely sure we can trust you but we'll trial it".

If that's what happened it's part of the barrier to equality of employment. Feminists would run wild with an example of inequality like that.

We often hear about equality of employment and how feminists aren't trying to increase female representation in bin collection or on building sites. I'd support men in supervisor roles in retail shops as much as women in bin collection. There's prejudice out there that should be challenged.

givyjoe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If that's what happened it's part of the barrier to equality of employment. Feminists would run wild with an example of inequality like that.

We often hear about equality of employment and how feminists aren't trying to increase female representation in bin collection or on building sites. I'd support men in supervisor roles in retail shops as much as women in bin collection. There's prejudice out there that should be challenged.

Where is el duderino and what have you done to him?!

jcon1913

This Saturday, TV3's Andrea Hayes will host a special panel discussion: 'Breaking The Glass Ceiling: Women and the Gender Pay Gap'.

Link:

https://www.jobsexpo.ie/seminars-dublin/

The accompanying blurb goes on to imply that because females are paid less there is some sort of inequality going on.

Personally most 2 career couples I know has the male working full-time and the female working part-time and spending the rest of the time swanning about meeting her pals for lunch and suchlike. So that's why females are paid less than their male counterparts.

This sort of drivel about men making more than women has to be called out for what it is.

2 examples from my circle of friends:
Male - engineer - working full-time fielding about 80-100 emails attending meetings, managing a list of potential customers/partners/employees running in to hundreds. Married to a GP who chooses to work part-time, they have 2 teenagers.

Male - SME owner - working full-time, running a consulting company. Sales of €300,000 with 4 employees, so fairly successful. Married to a qualified accountant who has a 2 or 3 day week job share with someone else in a bank, so on half wages.

iptba

jcon1913 wrote: »

This Saturday, TV3's Andrea Hayes will host a special panel discussion: 'Breaking The Glass Ceiling: Women and the Gender Pay Gap'.

Link:

https://www.jobsexpo.ie/seminars-dublin/

The accompanying blurb goes on to imply that because females are paid less there is some sort of inequality going on.

Personally most 2 career couples I know has the male working full-time and the female working part-time and spending the rest of the time swanning about meeting her pals for lunch and suchlike. So that's why females are paid less than their male counterparts.

This sort of drivel about men making more than women has to be called out for what it is.

2 examples from my circle of friends:
Male - engineer - working full-time fielding about 80-100 emails attending meetings, managing a list of potential customers/partners/employees running in to hundreds. Married to a GP who chooses to work part-time, they have 2 teenagers.

Male - SME owner - working full-time, running a consulting company. Sales of €300,000 with 4 employees, so fairly successful. Married to a qualified accountant who has a 2 or 3 day week job share with someone else in a bank, so on half wages.

Feminists often complain of all-male panels. Also no sign of any dissenting voices here.

https://www.jobsexpo.ie/seminars/panel-discussion-breaking-glass-ceiling-women-gender-pay-gap/

Panel Discussion: Breaking the Glass Ceiling – Women and the Gender Pay Gap

October 21, 2017 / 13:00 - 14:00 / Croke Park, Dublin 3


In this panel discussion we will explore the contentious topic of the gender pay gap. Andrea Hayes will moderate, with guests Barbara Scully, Aisling Holly and Angela Mezzetti.

Andrea Hayes
Andrea Hayes is an Irish broadcaster and producer who’s TV shows include TV3’s hugely successful series ‘Dog Tales’ ‘Animal A&E’, ‘Dublin Airport: Life Stories’ and ‘Coming Home for Christmas’.

Barbara Scully
Barbara Scully is a freelance columnist and broadcaster. Barbara’s feminism is often a core part of her writing and she believes that the Gender Pay Gap is a symptom of a much larger problem that must be solved before women can achieve true equality.

Aisling Holly
After coming up against the glass ceiling, Aisling Holly opened Enhance Medical in December 2015. She now has four branches across Ireland. She is well known and highly respected in both the cosmetic and broader healthcare industries.

Angie Mezzetti
Angie Mezzetti is the founder of Ocarina Productions. She is a Dublin-born journalist, documentary producer and former RTE Newscaster with a passion to see more women represented at senior decision making levels in all kinds of organisations.

backspin.

I just watched the Sunday Show on TV3. Wall to wall feminism. Tiresome.

Iseedeadpixels

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2017/1020/914008-eoghan-mcdermott-on-harvey-weinstein/

Yup it's all mens fault as usual.

Pawwed Rig

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2017/1020/914008-eoghan-mcdermott-on-harvey-weinstein/

Yup it's all mens fault as usual.

Bit sexist really. Seems to be saying that women need men to look out for them in that they can't look out for themselves.
Are all the women in Eoghan McDermott's life this helpless that big bad Eoghan needs to intervene any time they run into trouble? Women I know are stronger than this.

Wibbs

maybe

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Bit sexist really. Seems to be saying that women need men to look out for them in that they can't look out for themselves.

I'd say it's more subtle than that P. Beyond the given of modern "feminism" That Women are always Victims and Men are Always to Blame, there is also the subtext of women have less to no agency, depending on situation and when it suits. We see this in the above article. We also see it in reduced prison sentences by gender, perceptions that a drunk woman has less agency than a drunk man in sexual encounters and so on. Less agency means of course a concomitant deferral of responsibility. Very handy. More "rights" fewer "responsibilities" with said rights and a more societally protected demographic. Which is plainly to be the case and provably evident with it.

Women I know are stronger than this.

Very much my experience too.

Calhoun

To me stuff like this is so odd , it's like feminism is regressing and talking themselves into a position where women are seen as the weaker and need to be protected.

If they aren't responsible for their own actions how can they be trusted. It wouldnt take a great leap to get to that argument.

Calhoun

Calhoun wrote: »

To me stuff like this is so odd , it's like feminism is regressing and talking themselves into a position where women are seen as the weaker and need to be protected.

If they aren't responsible for their own actions how can they be trusted. It wouldnt take a great leap to get to that argument.

If women become fully independent confident and equal in society then they won't need feminist doctrine or feminist leaders to inspire them. TBH I'd suggest that the women who have made feminism central to their lives/careers are afraid of becoming useless (redundant), so it's in their own interests to push women back into a weak role. Overly cynical, perhaps (probably ), but women are human too and just as prone as some men in being petty, mean-spirited and/or manipulative. This idea of a selfless desire to help the human race could be true for some, but it stands to reason that some do so for their own gain.

Wibbs

maybe

Calhoun wrote: »

To me stuff like this is so odd , it's like feminism is regressing and talking themselves into a position where women are seen as the weaker and need to be protected.

Well my personal take on it is that what the Suffragettes and earlier Feminists(people I have an enormous respect for) fought to change has pretty much come to pass in nigh on every area of western society one can think of. So what's left? The small stuff for the most part. Even invented boogymen to keep the gravy train running for women and men who are professional "feminists", organisations, quangos and those in the soft sciences. They certainly can't come out and say; "well we're pretty much there, even exceeded our expectations in a few areas, so let's dial it back". It would be of no benefit to them.

I think of much of modern feminism as akin to a dog chasing cars. Frantically running after and barking at the car driving away, but if the car stops the dog doesn't know what to do with himself, so just yaps away ever louder at the immobile tyre.

Calhoun

Yah my only fear for society is that it goes so far that the so called safe spaces are used to reintroduce women as second class citizens.

After recently returning from a country where to ensure safetey for women they don't allow them leave after 8 pm from work without security detail. Their options are wait for security or sleep in the office (there are beds). Even if a woman works with her husband they are not allowed leave.

My point is these additional rights may come with negative consequences that will be very regressive.

Calhoun

Calhoun wrote: »

Yah my only fear for society is that it goes so far that the so called safe spaces are used to reintroduce women as second class citizens.

After recently returning from a country where to ensure safetey for women they don't allow them leave after 8 pm from work without security detail. Their options are wait for security or sleep in the office (there are beds). Even if a woman works with her husband they are not allowed leave.

My point is these additional rights may come with negative consequences that will be very regressive.

Let me guess, India? But India is still a country that has a very male power centered tradition. So, while women are being 'protected' they're being protected by men.

The Fear I have with western culture is that feminists will continue with a dual campaign of the weak female that is under threat from men, and also at the same time, a superiority complex thingy where women are more sensitive, intelligent but also strong. Two systems working together, but will ultimately work to place men as the second-class citizens.

You can already see it happening in part within the law, and the pressure on society to view men as predators who need to be 'controlled' or properly 'educated' to become 'real' men. Instead, boys are being raised and educated with no real connection to being a man, and encouraged to feel guilty for every possible action a man might have done ever against a woman. And then, of course, some boys/men rebel against such views and reinforce the impression that men are dangerous. Of course, not all men, but enough to be a threat to women in general.

It's like this metoo campaign. Yes, it's a good thing to raise awareness of women's issues with harassment and abuse, but it's all based on believing unverified claims with no system to determine where these things happened, when they happened, no attempt to put the claims within accepted views of what abuse/harassment is, etc. And any objection is met with a wall of not appreciating women's lives, and not trusting women, to tell the truth. How dare men oppose such a thing? Any objection/question about it is opposition. Whereas any suggestion of harassment/abuse towards men is seen as trying to diminish the trouble women have to experience. [seems a genuine pity that both issues couldn't be a combined programme to better society overall, but I guess that might dilute their support]

So I fully expect to see more of these kinds of things which raise awareness of difficulties that women face at the hands of men (funny how aggressive lesbians or transgenders aren't complained about) increase as time goes by. Painting men as aggressors that need to be collared. For the good of society.. and after all, men will be happier once it's all been completed. (because we wont have these confusing aggressive emotions to deal with. Apparently)

Calhoun

Yah spot on although i could have mention it here. Crazy culture real sexism embedded into daily life.

I dunno if things will go that way exactly, will men just happily slink into the background and be second class citizens? You got to remember that the rights we enjoy today are because people fought and died for them. It would seem to me that the more you disenfranchise the youth the more you open yourself up to some real social problems.

However another slant to this is that as we disenfranchise males of the future more and more we leave them open to external influences particularly those of religions that are not feminist friendly. It would be very easy then to turn laws on their head that have added more rights to women to illustrate the weakness of females overall. A woman is not responsible entirely for her actions so needs a guardian with her to make sure she does things correctly.

Calhoun

Calhoun wrote: »

Yah spot on although i could have mention it here. Crazy culture real sexism embedded into daily life.

I've traveled through India a few times while I lived in China. Crazy country. Lovely people.. but a crazy set of cultures.

I dunno if things will go that way exactly, will men just happily slink into the background and be second class citizens?

It's already happening, and men are generally allowing it to happen. Look at education. The majority of teachers in pre-school, primary school and in secondary school are female. In universities, there is a serious push towards 'balancing' the ratio since there are apparently too many men vs women. But there is precious little argument against women dominating these areas.

I was a lecturer for seven years in China, which has a very strong movement about what can be taught in classes with student monitors to report if what I taught should go against the mainstream beliefs of the 'party'. And even with that, I could put my own spin on the material I used. Material that needed to be approved by the moral committee.

Any teacher can take, say the topic of Irish history, and if they wanted to teach it in a negative, neutral or positive manner towards either the British or the Irish. That teacher could spin it to show the Irish as being troublesome in the face of British occupation. It wouldn't be that difficult. The Same material was given to all teachers but the teacher based on their own perspective has an enormous influence over how it is taught.

And nobody bats an eyelid at the ratio of female teachers in our schools, teaching the young. With this trend of deciding that men are dangerous or sexist, nobody is asking why when women have the ability to influence us through parenthood (the ratio of mothers/fathers raising the child at home is still firmly female dominated), the number of teachers in our schools is highly in favor of women, but nobody is asking when there's all that feminine influence over us as children/teens, why are men behaving the way they do. Of course, women are not responsible in any way.

And that's just education. In almost every area of our culture, we are seeing a trend to remove any accountability from women and push all responsibility for the negative parts of society on men.

You got to remember that the rights we enjoy today are because people fought and died for them.

I honestly don't understand what you mean by this. Who fought and died for our rights? Are we talking the war of independence or the civil war?

We're moving beyond DeValeras church and state, but I can't see where people died for the 'rights' we have today.

It would seem to me that the more you disenfranchise the youth the more you open yourself up to some real social problems.

The youth of today are going to generate social problems for many different reasons. I tend along the lines of thinking that we've removed too many boundaries and removed the punishments that went with them. So now that adults are actually afraid of intervening to prevent youth behavior, the youth can do as they wish. But then, there's too much access to information, movies, and music which doesn't help young people to conform to mainstream rules in society. And we haven't exactly been consistent in our messages: It's great to be an individual, and rebels are cool, but you must obey our rules. :rolleyes:

However another slant to this is that as we disenfranchise males of the future more and more we leave them open to external influences particularly those of religions that are not feminist friendly.

Religion is dying. Religion isn't an issue. A more dangerous issue is boys/men turning to other extreme philosophies which seek to put women back in the home or generally treat women like ****.

I believe in equality. I would prefer genuine equality for gender, race, etc. But people are more likely to welcome extremes rather than strive for that.

It would be very easy then to turn laws on their head that have added more rights to women to illustrate the weakness of females overall. A woman is not responsible entirely for her actions so needs a guardian with her to make sure she does things correctly.

You'll find that it is the vulnerable sensitive women that needs a guardian and the guardian will be the strong intelligent female. A matriarchy society, perhaps, where the women have all power and rights, with men being used for lower activities that women don't want to do, and men having 'less' rights than a woman.

Feminists don't want equality. They want superiority.

Calhoun

Yah indeed lovely country you think what it could be if things were more equal.

I don't believe there is some grand conspiracy by women to overthrow men and put us into a position of 2nd class citizens. I believe men are part of the problem when it comes to some of the stuff you have talked about below. The ratio of male to female teachers in primary education i would think is more to do with men following what they believe would be more lucrative careers.

What i mean by the whole fought and died thing was the generally western society today is built upon and influenced by what happen in the last two world wars. In and Irish context it was it would have been the war of independence but we would also have been influenced by what was happening with our neighbors over seas. My point in all this was we didnt just arrive where we are today with all the rights and privileges we have.

I believe there will be a point where a bigger and greater resistance will be felt if we go to far down the rabbit hole of reducing male rights. We aren't exactly a peaceful nation either just look at the north we have only just recently resolved that and probably not permanently.

The whole disenfranchisement item is an interesting one, while there are many reasons for why it happens today in Ireland in particular its getting worse for young males. We only have to look at the likes of the suicide rate, if we keep down the men are bastards route who knows where things will end up. You also should never say die when it comes to organized religion, look at all the foreign fighters that fought for ISIL. I also dont want to call out one religion, i believe anyone disenfranchised if open to influence from such organizations.

I agree with you on people welcoming extremes which is why i don't think things will go down easily. We are naturally prone to war as a people and we wield violence as a tool for change when we feel all the political options are closed to us.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with you the outlook you have painted is what feminists would like us to get to. However i just think collectively as humans and men in particular we use and wield violence as tools when we feel the political options have failed us.