Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

Wibbs

maybe

silverharp wrote: »

Having kids is a young mans game, 50 is too old frankly. Even 40 is pushing it , 1 in energy terms and 2 it means having the financial pressure to bat perfectly into your 60's.

I'd broadly agree, but it definitely depends on the 50 year old. In my life I've known a fair few 50 year olds with more energy and vitality than many if not most 30 year olds, but yeah they are the exceptions alright.

Super_Sonic's second issue that most non rich/famous men would have trouble getting a woman who can still have kids is the bigger issue.* Though I would reckon that's a self selecting issue. IE older men who can attract younger women are most likely able to do so because because they're fitter/healthier/better looking/wealthier than background. Essentially, in the first two categories anyway, they're displaying as "younger" men and more younger women will therefore find them attractive as partners and fathers.




*sperm quality in men doesn't drop off nearly so precipitously. The age of the mother is the more important factor. When equal aged couples were looked at yes problems with conception and carrying to term and genetic faults did increase with age, but when unequal aged couples were looked at the father's age had far less influence on the above. EG on average a 25 year old father and a 35 year old mother had the same risks as a couple both 35. Ditto going the other way; a 50 year old father with a 25 year old mother again had the risk rates of her age group(One difference was noted. Rates of Aspergers were higher with older fathers. Not by much, but was there). Which makes sense. Healthy men don't go through a fertility trajectory to nearly the same degree as healthy women. It goes from starting to peak, to plateau to very slow and steady decline. Indeed even a man's fertility peak is later, more like 25, rather than 20.

Iseedeadpixels

My son was born when I was 25, Im 33 now and single and dont want any more kids.....I guess Im the type to blame

gizmo555

The chair of the housing charity Threshold has a letter in the Irish Times today (06/01/18), expressing concern that:

Women make up a far higher percentage of the homeless population in Ireland compared to other European countries, with 42 per cent of people who are homeless in Ireland being women, rising to 47 per cent in Dublin.

Or, to put it another way, 58% of the Irish homeless population is already male, but Ms Hayden is concerned that this percentage isn't higher ...

silverharp

gizmo555 wrote: »

The chair of the housing charity Threshold has a letter in the Irish Times today (06/01/18), expressing concern that:

Women make up a far higher percentage of the homeless population in Ireland compared to other European countries, with 42 per cent of people who are homeless in Ireland being women, rising to 47 per cent in Dublin.

Or, to put it another way, 58% of the Irish homeless population is already male, but Ms Hayden is concerned that this isn't higher ...

homeless for women and children tends to mean being paid to live in a B&B. we arent talking about people who dont know where they are actually sleeping tonight?

backspin.

I see the main headline on RTE.ie this morning was about a big meeting that is to be held about the 'gender pay gap'. Top political, business, trade union people will be in attendance. They will get together to find solutions. I wonder will the truth or reality find its way to that meeting..

Hoboo

backspin. wrote: »

Top political, business, trade union people will be in attendance.

All men so

backspin.

Hoboo wrote: »

All men so

The only ones I'll expect sense from are the business people.

backspin.

I forgot to mention senior policymakers and academics will be there too. The latter is where the dangerous nonsense will come from.

gizmo555

backspin. wrote: »

I see the main headline on RTE.ie this morning was about a big meeting that is to be held about the 'gender pay gap'. Top political, business, trade union people will be in attendance. They will get together to find solutions. I wonder will the truth or reality find its way to that meeting..

The "gender pay gap" of 14% is cited by the Threshold chair as a reason for women becoming homeless. The irony seems completely lost on her that there is a 16% gender homelessness gap - in favour of women.

silverharp

gizmo555 wrote: »

The "gender pay gap" of 14% is cited by the Threshold chair as a reason for women becoming homeless. The irony seems completely lost on her that there is an 18% gender homelessness gap - in favour of women.

i think i'd have thrown my radio out the window, thanks for taking one for the team

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

All men so

There doesn't seem to be such a shortage of 'male' feminists or men who support these kinds of statistics which promote women's rights/needs.

And TBH there seems to be a growing trend of women who are willing to debunk the feminist myths and step forward for more of an equal perspective.

yerwanthere123

Saruhashi wrote: »

Looks like the entire thread has been debunked anyway.

"It's impossible for women to be sexist towards men".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-oneill-it-is-impossible-for-women-to-be-sexist-towards-men-440072.html

So there you go.

I said I'd give her the benefit of doubt and read the article, but I honestly could only make it halfway through. How can anyone actually believe that a woman can't be sexist towards a man? I'd like to think she's just baiting, in fact I'd prefer if she was, but I really don't know.


What do people think of this thread, is it sexist or not? I've no issue with her stance on the man's behaviour, it was totally unacceptable, although not sure I'd classify it as "sexual assault". However she seems to use experiences like this as a stick to beat all men with, and to justify being rude and standoffish. Why should men be treated badly for the behaviour of others, which is entirely unrelated to them?

https://twitter.com/LilyEvansMFC/status/949100700964827136

Calhoun

gizmo555 wrote: »

The chair of the housing charity Threshold has a letter in the Irish Times today (06/01/18), expressing concern that:

Women make up a far higher percentage of the homeless population in Ireland compared to other European countries, with 42 per cent of people who are homeless in Ireland being women, rising to 47 per cent in Dublin.

Or, to put it another way, 58% of the Irish homeless population is already male, but Ms Hayden is concerned that this percentage isn't higher ...

It's only men who are expendable, you don't get charity resources or a sob story with men. They have to die in a doorway up from the Dail to matter .

Much cheaper to let them die be outraged afterwards and get rewards.

Calhoun

Calhoun wrote: »

Only men who are expendable, you don't get charity resiurces or a sob story with men. They have to die in a doorway up from the Dail to matter .

God, no. They'd need to be part of some kind of a minority, a racial difference, or have a particularly 'fashionable' disability, and then die for them to matter.

Calhoun

Woman now are not to be challenged on opinion anywhere https://www.rte.ie/amp/931221/?__twitter_impression=true

Whats the end game with crap like this?

El_Duderino 09

Calhoun wrote:

Woman now are not to be challenged on opinion anywhere

Where are you getting that?

iptba

Calhoun wrote: »

Woman now are not to be challenged on opinion anywhere https://www.rte.ie/amp/931221/?__twitter_impression=true

Whats the end game with crap like this?

Feminists complaining the female voice shouldn't be silenced yet quite a number seem willing to try to silence people highlighting men's issues.

backspin.

Calhoun wrote: »

Woman now are not to be challenged on opinion anywhere https://www.rte.ie/amp/931221/?__twitter_impression=true

Whats the end game with crap like this?

I don't take that from the article. Its just some vague nonsense about women not letting themselves be silenced. Even though nobody is silencing them. Twitter is full of people attacking each other.

Calhoun

backspin. wrote: »

I don't take that from the article. Its just some vague nonsense about women not letting themselves be silenced. Even though nobody is silencing them. Twitter is full of people attacking each other.

It is for sure and if you put anything up publicly it will be attacked. I like the whole don't let ourselves be silenced even if they maybe wrong.

The meetoo crap is case in point, public judge jury and executioner without due process. What happens when they do it to the wrong person?

El_Duderino 09

backspin. wrote:

I don't take that from the article. Its just some vague nonsense about women not letting themselves be silenced. Even though nobody is silencing them. Twitter is full of people attacking each other.

Exactly. It gives the historical background where women authors weren't taken seriously so they published anonymously or under a male name.

I think the whole point of the article is that there have been various points in history where authorship boomed and women were generally excluded for one reason or another. The internet and particularly social media such as twitter is the latest such boom and women are not being excluded. Maybe because authorship is usually kind of anonymous.

Calhoun wrote:

The meetoo crap is case in point, public judge jury and executioner without due process. What happens when they do it to the wrong person?

The metoo campaign is an example of how social media was used to quickly break a taboo which has existed for decades - discussing sexual abuse in Hollywood for example.

You can believe the allegations if you like but I don't think it's a sensible approach. Innocent unless proven guilty. But some have admitted it. Kevin Spacey is one example of a person who has been abusing boys for decades and he was stopped and his career ruined overnight thanks to metoo.

backspin.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Exactly. It gives the historical background where women authors weren't taken seriously so they published anonymously or under a male name.

I think the whole point of the article is that there have been various points in history where authorship boomed and women were generally excluded for one reason or another. The internet and particularly social media such as twitter is the latest such boom and women are not being excluded. Maybe because authorship is usually kind of anonymous.

5 of the top ten most followed twitter accounts are female.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-followed_Twitter_accounts


But just to prove how vapid twitter is Katy Perry is top.

iptba

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/948825124085563392

Good for her. But nothing shows in a search for "EU Prize for men Innovators"

More info:
http://ec.europa.eu/research/index.cfm?pg=newsalert&year=2017&na=na-240117

Following the success of its first three editions in 2011, 2014 and 2016, applications to the EU Prize for Women Innovators 2017 closed in November 2016. Three cash prizes of €100,000, €50,000 and €30,000 will be awarded in the main Women Innovators category and one prize of €20,000 will be awarded to the first ever winner of the Rising Innovator Award.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

Good for her. But nothing shows in a search for "EU Prize for men Innovators"

Yup, nothing for male's.

But then that's the way things are with the UN/EU/Whatever... They'll claim it's all about equality, but it'll be targeted solely at females. Blatant sexism from the very organisations that are supposed to be seeking equality. :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

iptba wrote:

Good for her. But nothing shows in a search for "EU Prize for men Innovators"

Deleted User wrote:

But then that's the way things are with the UN/EU/Whatever... They'll claim it's all about equality, but it'll be targeted solely at females. Blatant sexism from the very organisations that are supposed to be seeking equality.

Surely the point of it is to highlight a group who were excluded from positions which produce innovations to the point that there's a stereotype that women can't really be creative and innovative. I'd say the EU prize is more about promoting equality through dispelling the myth, than you're giving credit for.

Is there a similar field from which men have been traditionally excluded to the point of being stereotyped as being unable to perform it?

um7y1h83ge06nx

Male nurses would be unusual, in particular a male midwife would probably go down like a lead balloon. Men working in childcare such as creches would be very unusual too I would think and many would not trust a man in that position.

Teaching has very much become female dominated in recent years.

Calhoun

Darren Incalculable AcrossL wrote: »

Male nurses would be unusual, in particular a male midwife would probably go down like a lead balloon. Men working in childcare such as creches would be very unusual too I would think and many would not trust a man in that position.

Teaching has very much become female dominated in recent years.

Why ? are you a feminist or inherently sexist?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Surely the point of it is to highlight a group who were excluded from positions which produce innovations to the point that there's a stereotype that women can't really be creative and innovative. I'd say the EU prize is more about promoting equality through dispelling the myth, than you're giving credit for.

Is there a similar field from which men have been traditionally excluded to the point of being stereotyped as being unable to perform it?

Women haven't been traditionally excluded from any fields in decades. They might have been a minority but hardly excluded.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Calhoun wrote: »

Why ? are you a feminist or inherently sexist?

I would fully support men in all those positions, it's others I think could have problems with it. Society is very biased against men these days. When my wife had to stay in the maternity after giving birth and was too sick to take care of our baby I took care of her overnight, visiting the hospital every day with her. My wife got lots of comments that I wouldn't be able to take care of our baby, mad stuff. She politely told them where to go and that I was well capable.

I was mentioning this topic to the wife now and she doesn't know any Radiographer that has trained in mammography. There is an unwritten rule that men cannot apply for the training which she thinks is ridiculous.

Calhoun

Darren Incalculable AcrossL wrote: »

I would fully support men in all those positions, it's others I think could have problems with it. Society is very biased against men these days. When my wife had to stay in the maternity after giving birth and was too sick to take care of our baby I took care of her overnight, visiting the hospital every day with her. My wife got lots of comments that I wouldn't be able to take care of our baby, mad stuff. She politely told them where to go and that I was well capable.

I was mentioning this topic to the wife now and she doesn't know any Radiographer that has trained in mammography. There is an unwritten rule that men cannot apply for the training which she thinks is ridiculous.

If we are to operate in a equal and fair society we musn't let perceived societal norms impact on equality. I know of a couple of male nurses and a male creche worker in my wider social groups, if we were a fair society and cared as much about equality for both genders we would have similar initiatives in sectors that are female dominated.

That looks to be institutionalized sexism and must be challenged on all fronts, how can we expect to have the best and brightest in certain fields if it only applies to one gender and not ability.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

Women haven't been traditionally excluded from any fields in decades. They might have been a minority but hardly excluded.

And yet the stereotype persists. As sonic demonstrated with stereotypes about men as carers, it works both ways and should be challenged.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Surely the point of it is to highlight a group who were excluded from positions which produce innovations to the point that there's a stereotype that women can't really be creative and innovative. I'd say the EU prize is more about promoting equality through dispelling the myth, than you're giving credit for.

Some of the greatest and most lauded scientists are Women so theres not really a stereotype in a field that craves creativity.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Some of the greatest and most lauded scientists are Women so theres not really a stereotype in a field that craves creativity.

Sure some of them are women. The further back in history you go the fewer women were involved due to gender roles. You might not be prejudiced but lots of people are. Similarly you might not be prejudiced against male carers but lots of people are. Things change and attitudes don't always keep up.

To say these stereotype don't exist is not a true reflection reality.

silverharp

based on the following article, I dont think wowen will be out competing men in innovation

http://fortune.com/2016/07/21/patents-women-gender-gap/

Where are all the female inventors?

According to a new analysis by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, women held fewer than one in five patents in 2010. And the numbers are even worse when it comes to women as primary inventors: Just a puny 8%.

so erm not the important stuff

Indeed, most female primary inventors are staying within the realm of what are typically considered women’s domain: home and travel goods, jewelry, and apparel.

lol

At the current rate of progress, gender equality among patent-holders is more than 75 years away—meaning that women won’t close the “patenting gap” until 2092.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure some of them are women. The further back in history you go the fewer women were involved due to gender roles. You might not be prejudiced but lots of people are. Similarly you might not be prejudiced against male carers but lots of people are. Things change and attitudes don't always keep up.

To say these stereotype don't exist is not a true reflection reality.

Are you really trying to justify stereotypes by saying oh well going back 400 years.....science took leaps from the 1800 onwards were yet again Women were central to it, more than 200 years later they cant claim stereotypes if thats the case we should "bitch and moan" about how Irish people are treated badly :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Some of the greatest and most lauded scientists are Women so theres not really a stereotype in a field that craves creativity.

silverharp wrote:

so erm not the important stuff

lol

See what I mean, iseedeadpixls?

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

See what I mean, iseedeadpixls?

i was just baiting you

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And yet the stereotype persists. As sonic demonstrated with stereotypes about men as carers, it works both ways and should be challenged.

To say these stereotype don't exist is not a true reflection reality.

Stereotypes, by their very nature, do not simply disappear. We have stereotypes for just about every part of society, all of which can be traced back to something in the past.

The inequality that occurred to women is in the past. In many cases, a generation or two in the past. Do some men still believe women to be inferior? Yup. Definitely. Just as some women believe men to be inferior.

That's not going to change due to initiatives or campaigns that solely focus on females. If you want the stereotypes to be diminished (although they'll probably never disappear completely), then the focus should be on equality. Benefiting both genders equally so that females do not need a helping hand to compete with men on a level playing field.

But the focus is on helping females (due to their gender) without any suggestion of doing the same for men. And that is sexist.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Are you really trying to justify stereotypes by saying oh well going back 400 years.....science took leaps from the 1800 onwards were yet again Women were central to it, more than 200 years later they cant claim stereotypes if thats the case we should "bitch and moan" about how Irish people are treated badly

Maybe I'll tell you what I think and it will save you flying off on tangents. I think the reality of women's involvement in innovation has changed over time but the perception of their ability to be Innovative is operating. See Silverharp's post.

Similarly men have been involved in parenting and caring but stereotypes still exist that men aren't able to be good carers. I have no problem acknowledging and challenging either stereotype

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I'll tell you what I think and it will save you flying off on tangents. I think the reality of women's involvement in innovation has changed over time but the perception of their ability to be Innovative is operating. See Silverharp's post.

Similarly men have been involved in parenting and caring but stereotypes still exist that men aren't able to be good carers. I have no problem acknowledging and challenging either stereotype

whats your idea? men and women are interchangeable completely? Im simply going on the idea that men and women are biologically different and that for things like IQ men and women have different distribution curves ie more male geniuses and more male idiots.
Im not suggesting women cant science just that they will tend to show up in lower numbers especially in the hard sciences.

the question then is do you put an inordinate effort into recruiting women which would lead to diminishing returns or simply let people study what they want to with an over all proviso that they shouldnt be put off because of relative numbers by gender. If a man wants to go into childcare go for it and vice versa

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

Stereotypes, by their very nature, do not simply disappear. We have stereotypes for just about every part of society, all of which can be traced back to something in the past.

Stereotypes can be challenged and changed. Whether or not they disappear completely and totally is a separate question.

Deleted User wrote:

That's not going to change due to initiatives or campaigns that solely focus on females. If you want the stereotypes to be diminished (although they'll probably never disappear completely), then the focus should be on equality. Benefiting both genders equally so that females do not need a helping hand to compete with men on a level playing field.

Directly challenging stereotypes with counter evidence is probably the most sensible way to challenge them

Deleted User wrote:

But the focus is on helping females (due to their gender) without any suggestion of doing the same for men. And that is sexist.

Like I said in my first post on the topic, can you think of any can you think of a similar area where men were excluded leading to a persistent stereotype?

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I'll tell you what I think and it will save you flying off on tangents. I think the reality of women's involvement in innovation has changed over time but the perception of their ability to be Innovative is operating. See Silverharp's post.

Similarly men have been involved in parenting and caring but stereotypes still exist that men aren't able to be good carers. I have no problem acknowledging and challenging either stereotype

Silverharp was baiting you, as a man with a passion for science I can tell you people like me never look down on the best female scientists its clueless sjw's coming up with bollox for their "cause"

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Stereotypes can be challenged and changed. Whether or not they disappear completely and totally is a separate question.

Except, of course, it's not related to what I objected to. Can you remember what I objected to? [You introduced stereotypes].

Directly challenging stereotypes with counter evidence is probably the most sensible way to challenge them

Or dismissing them as being the imaginations of the ignorant.

Like I said in my first post on the topic, can you think of any can you think of a similar area where men were excluded leading to a persistent stereotype?

Yup. Parenthood/motherhood. (custody of children in divorce settlements) :rolleyes:

Now. Perhaps you can show me where exactly women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world to the extent that these kinds of initiatives are needed to raise awareness?

Owryan

Friend of mine went for a job as a one-to-one key worker with young kids, kind of like an sna but trained in counselling.

Was told at the interview that he would have to have someone sit in with him while he was working with a child, the door could not be closed and he would not be allowed go on any field trips. So, basically he would not be able to do his job. Interestingly the 2 women there don't have the same restrictions.

I'm looking to work in the area of family support after college and all i hear is "we need more males" in the sector yet this is what happens.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Silverharp was baiting you, as a man with a passion for science I can tell you people like me never look down on the best female scientists its clueless sjw's coming up with bollox for their "cause"

So they say. They also think it's right and proper that men will always be the majority at the top of business and political leadership. And they then go on to say women will be tend towards lower levels of representation in science, especially hard sciences.

In other words they hold the exact attitude that demonstrates my point ans they claim to have been using as bait. Is it really baiting if you use your honest opinion?

If you have a passion for science and are as enlightened as you say, then you're probably not representative of the population. As I said earlier, I acknowledge that you don't hold the stereotype, but that doesn't change it being widespread. I also don't think men cant be great carers but that doesn't stop that attitude being held by others.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So they say. They also think it's right and proper that men will always be the majority at the top of business and political leadership. And they then go on to say women will be tend towards lower levels of representation in science, especially hard sciences.

In other words they hold the exact attitude that demonstrates my point ans they claim to have been using as bait. Is it really baiting if you use your honest opinion?

If you have a passion for science and are as enlightened as you say, then you're probably not representative of the population. As I said earlier, I acknowledge that you don't hold the stereotype, but that doesn't change it being widespread. I also don't think men cant be great carers but that doesn't stop that attitude being held by others.

The problem is with a majority of Women themselves now lean towards ridiculous things like gender studies rather than STEM, they arent helping themselves so social voices with no clue about science cry about men being unfair etc.

Margaret Hamilton https://assets.wired.com/photos/w_566/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Margaret_Hamilton.jpg

One of my fave pics of a scientist is certainly not looked down on, maybe they should promote the history of this lady rather than piss and moan as you so like to remind us that men apparently do.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

Yup. Parenthood/motherhood. (custody of children in divorce settlements)

I agree that's a problem based on a stereotype borne out of old fashioned gender roles. So should those stereotypes be challenged or not?

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I agree that's a problem based on a stereotype borne out of old fashioned gender roles. So should those stereotypes be challenged or not?

Its not a stereotype when fathers have no rights in Ireland!

Owryan

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Its not a stereotype when fathers have no rights in Ireland!

Really? Exaggeration much?

Married father's have rights, unmarried father's have rights.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Its not a stereotype when fathers have no rights in Ireland!

That's a sidestep of the question. Should those stereotypes that men can't be good caregivers be challenged of not?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I agree that's a problem based on a stereotype borne out of old fashioned gender roles. So should those stereotypes be challenged or not?

These initiatives/programmes are not challenging past stereotypes. They've decided that females need special attention, even though, females are.... [wish I had that paragraph that Wibbs does about womens' rights and their position in society, but I think you know it.:D]