Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

Iseedeadpixels

El Duderino keeps asking me how I feel about the competition aimed at Women so here it is.......

I believe it is a waste of time, as I explained there is no stereotype in the SCIENCE community, it comes from purple haired millenials posting on blogs etc who have no clue about science.

They should have promoted science in general and the history of great female scientists along with male counterparts, Women should not want to get into science because somebody won a award, they should want to get involved because they have heroes like Annie Cannon etc.

This is a modern thing that Women cant be as good as men in Science, in the 90s and early 2000s stargate SG1 for example a show with a lot of input from scientists and the Air force had Sam Carter as an insanely intelligent scientist but also a kick ass soldier, if there was such a stereotype she would have been cast a buxom blonde with no clue, yet it was the male leader who was a tad dim.

My science teacher was female, at the recent science expo there were a lot of women involved, I brought my son to the planetarium in Armagh and yup the whole staff......female.

The decline in female applicants for STEM subject is down to said idiots with purple hair promoting ****e like Gender studies and telling young Women they arent as good.

I honestly dont know what else I can say now tbh.

gizmo555

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

My science teacher was female, at the recent science expo there were a lot of women involved, I brought my son to the planetarium in Armagh and yup the whole staff......female.

An Irish woman, Dr. Norah Patten, remains on course to become the country's first ever person in space.

by Áine Bonner

Dr. Norah Patten, from Ballina in Co. Mayo, is one of 12 participants from around the world selected to take part in a unique scientist-astronaut training programme in Florida.

Project PoSSUM (Polar Suborbital Science in the Upper Mesosphere) is designed to teach candidates the skills required to effectively conduct research on the next generation of space vehicles and it takes place from 7 October to 11 October.

https://www.joe.ie/news/norah-patten-first-irish-person-space-602657

Iseedeadpixels

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

I honestly dont know what else I can say now tbh.

TBH I feel the same way about my first career. I majored in Business Studies with Finance (female dominated class), and after graduating (in 2000) worked for EsatBT. My first manager was female. Her manager was female. The Director was male. In my department(AR/AP), the team consisted of an even balance of the genders.

After that, I went into a small company for a few years and then switched to International corporate level collections. And my managers were, more often than not, female. Finance related roles attract so many women into its ranks, and yet, there are always these cries of discrimination about the numbers. And when I became a manager in my own right, I found that it was extremely difficult to promote women in the company once they reached a certain level. There was the focus on becoming mothers, and not wanting to work the 50-60 hour weeks that were required at that level. The women who did choose to focus on their careers did so, and usually rose far higher than I did.

Why? because they were more ambitious than I was.

This is what bugs me about the whole approach to discrimination and gender ratios. I've worked in many companies both in Europe and Asia. Big and small. And I've seen very little of the stereotypical claims about discrimination. Were women asked to make coffee for meetings? Yup. Sometimes. So was I. Were some people passed over for promotions? Yup. So was I. As were others. Was their appearance/office clothes controlled by management? Nope. Were mine? Yup. Long hair, short hair, all styles fine for ladies... but could i have long hair? Nope. My Beard? highly dependent on the company, but usually nope.

I genuinely find the whole gender quotas, awareness of stereotypes or discrimination campaigns baffling. Because during my lifetime I've found so little actual intentional discrimination happening towards women. I've seen plenty of men sidelined to make room for women as part of one initiative or another, but little discrimination against women.

In Finance... the numbers of females in the Industry are very high. On Par, if not higher, than the numbers of men. There will be more men in higher positions but more due to the sacrifices needed to be made to get to that level. Sacrifices that I didn't wish to make. Sacrifices many men don't wish to make. But since women don't want to make the same sacrifices, the whole system must be changed to help them. [But not changed equally to help men, because after all, all men are equal. Unlike women. Somehow...]

And that's why I get my back up about all these initiatives to help women reach "higher". As long as I've been working, anti-discrimination laws have been in place and enforced. Public awareness has also been firmly focused on women's rights in the workplace, and the "need" for more women in the top positions.

I asked El_D twice:

"Now. Perhaps you can show me where exactly women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world to the extent that these kinds of initiatives are needed to raise awareness? ""

And got no answer (although he did post afterward to someone else).

There will always be some discrimination occurring against women. There doesn't need to be more awareness campaigns about that. We all know it happens, and everyone knows a woman can legally object to it. In many ways, women are better protected in the workplace than men. Surely, the time has come for all these Government, EU, UN initiatives to stop focusing on women and start dealing with encouraging both genders... equally.

Ramble. Ramble. Ramble.

hots

Deleted User wrote: »

... start dealing with encouraging both genders... equally.

This is the crux of it for me, there is no need for gender specific competitions or programmes at all.

Outlaw Pete

Genders swapped in the following interview and you know the two actors would have been labelled creeps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX6rII4HP6Q

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

El Duderino keeps asking me how I feel about the competition aimed at Women so here it is......

I believe it is a waste of time, as I explained there is no stereotype in the SCIENCE community, it comes from purple haired millenials posting on blogs etc who have no clue about science.

Well actually I asked you what you think the intended purpose of the competition was. I didn't ask anything about your feelings. So if you want to answer the actual question, that would be great.

Where in the name of jaysus did you get the impression that I'm limiting the discussion to the science community? Such a strange limitation you want to place on your response but there's no point pushing it any further.

And why you think the only correct way to encourage women (or anyone) into STEM is to teach them about the history of female/male scientists is also a very strange limitation of thinking. Is that the only correct way to promote an area of study or is this a special case ( oh ED there's no point talking to you if you keep asking questions etc.). Sure it's a good suggestion to teach about history but so is a competition to promote the outcomes in the here and now.

You started off opposing the competition for some nebulous reason. When pressed for a solid reason to oppose the competition and what you think the , its basically that they used the wrong PR tool because, in your opinion the correct way to promote . What a random reason to oppose an obviously innocuous competition.

In short, it's obvious that using both history and current outcomes are completely valid and useful ways to promote almost anything. You think stem is different and the only way to promote it is to teach about the history, therefore the competition is a bad idea. Christ on a cross trainer.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

"Now. Perhaps you can show me where exactly women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world to the extent that these kinds of initiatives are needed to raise awareness? ""

Strange that you want me to answer this question. Talk about putting words in other people's mouth. That's not an argument I've made (that women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world) and in don't really think it's fair to assume I should make it for you because you demand it. Im not saying it doesn't happen but it's not a point that I've made. (Oh Ed you're a feminist so you have to argue all the things I think a feminist should argue). Lol

I said I think the competition is a good idea. If there was a similar approach to celebrating men in an area where they're under represented, I'd support that too. If there was a celebration of exceptional men in teaching or a similar field to role model men in those fields, I'd support that too.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Strange that you want me to answer this question. Talk about putting words in other people's mouth. That's not an argument I've made (that women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world) and in don't really think it's fair to assume I should make it for you because you demand it. Im not saying it doesn't happen but it's not a point that I've made. (Oh Ed you're a feminist so you have to argue all the things I think a feminist should argue). Lol

Sidestepping. :rolleyes:

Iseedeadpixels

Oh good god theres no end to him.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well actually I asked you what you think the intended purpose of the competition was. I didn't ask anything about your feelings. So if you want to answer the actual question, that would be great.

Where in the name of jaysus did you get the impression that I'm limiting the discussion to the science community? Such a strange limitation you want to place on your response but there's no point pushing it any further.

And why you think the only correct way to encourage women (or anyone) into STEM is to teach them about the history of female/male scientists is also a very strange limitation of thinking. Is that the only correct way to promote an area of study or is this a special case ( oh ED there's no point talking to you if you keep asking questions etc.). Sure it's a good suggestion to teach about history but so is a competition to promote the outcomes in the here and now.

You started off opposing the competition for some nebulous reason. When pressed for a solid reason to oppose the competition and what you think the , its basically that they used the wrong PR tool because, in your opinion the correct way to promote . What a random reason to oppose an obviously innocuous competition.

In short, it's obvious that using both history and current outcomes are completely valid and useful ways to promote almost anything. You think stem is different and the only way to promote it is to teach about the history, therefore the competition is a bad idea. Christ on a cross trainer.

Last thing Ill say about all this because you dont get it! I gave 2 examples.... Science community....purple haired etc (non science community)

You seem to be able to read minds how many times do you jump to conclusions "you think" "you and silverharp" etc Jesus Christ man do you ever relax?

Im done with this pointless poster. All the "Oh ED" in comments too Jesus wept what are you like.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

Sidestepping. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I’ll probably just make the arguments I want to make.

I won’t be badgered into making any arguments you want me to make. Is that fair enough?

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Seriously though, I’ll probably just make the arguments I want to make.

I won’t be badgered into making any arguments you want me to make. Is that fair enough?

How funny considering you tend to give out to other posters for not answering your questions.

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the point? seems more like punishing the men and the children...

If the Fathers believe the children to be their own... Why would mandatory testing be required?

From a historical point of view, it would improve documenting of family trees. From a medical point of view, it would improve the accuracy of family history and medical records.

From a practical point of view, asking your wife or partner for a DNA test of a child she says is yours can be a relationship ender, many men that would like a DNA test don't ask for one out of fear. If they were mandatory it would make that whole process easier.

It isn't fair for children to have a potentially incorrect father listed on their birth cert.

Currently, a woman can force a man to pay child support for a child that was born while you were married even if the child wasn't yours.

In the long term, it would eliminate undocumented fathers if the father of a child was filled in automatically based on comparing the DNA results of all new-born children with all children born previously. After ~50 years you won't need to DNA test fathers if every father is already tested and on file.

Also people have faked or stolen birth certs if your birth cert file contained a DNA profile that wouldn't be possible. If it was allowed to be used by the police it would solve many crimes and if it cant be used for that it would at least solve the identity of bodies that are found but can't be identified.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Last thing Ill say about all this because you dont get it! I gave 2 examples.... Science community....purple haired etc (non science community)

You seem to be able to read minds how many times do you jump to conclusions "you think" "you and silverharp" etc Jesus Christ man do you ever relax?

Im done with this pointless poster. All the "Oh ED" in comments too Jesus wept what are you like.

Lol I know you’ve mentioned the science community and blue haired feminists. I’ve no idea why you only want to talk about those groups. Are they your specialist subjects or something? For whatever reason you wanted to frame the discussion about the competition to those 2 groups. Random or what?

Re mind reading. I’m not sure whether your you’re referring to the actual inferences I made, or where I pointed out points and disagreement between 2 or more posters who were both posting contradictory points to tell me why I’m wrong, but would never dare discuss their differences of opinion between themselves.

I think it shows a terrible weakness in a movement when it’s members we terrified to disagree and simply nod along with any old guff posted by each other. As a supporter of men’s rights I see that as a waste. If the men’s rights movement was achieving its goals it could afford to mess about.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well actually I asked you what you think the intended purpose of the competition was. I didn't ask anything about your feelings. So if you want to answer the actual question, that would be great.

Dunno why Im bothering.....

I did answer it I called it a waste of time, now what would one infer from that? The intended purpose was obviously to get women excited about science with a *shiny material award, I gave my opinion and you ridiculed it (you're obviously entitled to your opinion)

Competitions should be genderless, why have say 5 girls in one comp and 10 boys in another, having 15 pit against each other would be more beneficial to competitiveness and make girls feel as though they arent being treated differently.

*Denotes me having a lil joke.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Re mind reading. I’m not sure whether your you’re referring to the actual inferences I made, or where I pointed out points and disagreement between 2 or more posters who were both posting contradictory points to tell me why I’m wrong, but would never dare discuss their differences of opinion between themselves.

Explained this one already :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

I did answer it I called it a waste of time, now what would one infer from that? The intended purpose was obviously to get women excited about science with a *shiny material award, I gave my opinion and you ridiculed it (you're obviously entitled to your opinion)

Lol. Now you answer what you think the intended purpose is, to get women excited about science. How dreadful. Resume outrage.

I'd completely support an effort to get men excited about primary teaching or nursing etc. And I imagine you would too. Would you?

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Explained this one already

I remember. You disagreed with it when I said it and ignored it when someone else said it. You don't have to disagree with them and you don't have to keep explaining yourself. I simply pointed out when it happened. It's interesting that it happens as often as it does.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Strange that you want me to answer this question. Talk about putting words in other people's mouth. .

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Seriously though, I’ll probably just make the arguments I want to make.

I won’t be badgered into making any arguments you want me to make. Is that fair enough?

Klaz wrote:

"Now. Perhaps you can show me where exactly women are being actively discriminated against in our modern western world to the extent that these kinds of initiatives are needed to raise awareness?

How is any of this putting words in your mouth, or badgering you?

The limitation that the answer is about the western world or reflect discrimination that's happening now, rather than in the past? Or asking you how these kinds of initiatives or competitions are justified... since females are well protected under the law?

And honestly, you're rarely patient of other posters sensitivities so why become sensitive to a direct question about discrimination towards women, when you are obviously very sympathetic to feminism.

Seemed a straightforward question after your arguments on stereotypes...

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol. Now you answer what you think the intended purpose is, to get women excited about science. How dreadful. Resume outrage.

I'd completely support an effort to get men excited about primary teaching or nursing etc. And I imagine you would too. Would you?

Why promote science to girls only though? Why exclude boys are they not as important?

To answer your 2nd bit there are plenty of male primary teachers tbh as for nursing I wouldnt encourage it to anyone regardless of gender until better hours and pay are brought in....but thats a discussion for AH etc

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I remember. You disagreed with it when I said it and ignored it when someone else said it. You don't have to disagree with them and you don't have to keep explaining yourself. I simply pointed out when it happened. It's interesting that it happens as often as it does.

Its crazy sure I even thanked some of your posts lately!

silverharp

rte were covering this, no questioning, the gap needs to be tackled


https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/951188865682956289

Calhoun

Lol after their track history no wonder they are, at the end of the day equal work for equal pay is in the best interest of everyone.

I don't believe we have a problem but then again I work for a global company and we have a standardized payscale. There maybe companies our their who still go out of their way more but I doubt it.

In my experience business only care about on thing and that is green, I don't see all wages going up .

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

How is any of this putting words in your mouth, or badgering you?

The limitation that the answer is about the western world or reflect discrimination that's happening now, rather than in the past? Or asking you how these kinds of initiatives or competitions are justified... since females are well protected under the law?

And honestly, you're rarely patient of other posters sensitivities so why become sensitive to a direct question about discrimination towards women, when you are obviously very sympathetic to feminism.

Seemed a straightforward question after your arguments on stereotypes...

You’re asking me to formulate an argument on demand, apropos of nothing. If I wanted to make that argument, I would.

It’s not an argument I’ve made in the past and you expect me to make it because of your idea of my beliefs, as if I’m the arbiter of this matter. I’m not, and the esteem in which you hold me would be flattering, but it’s clearly a case of putting words in my mouth.

They’re not my words. I’ll tell you what arguments I want to make and you’ll know because I’ll I make them voluntarily.

Note I’m not asking you to make any random arguments because that’s not really how it works.

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd completely support an effort to get men excited about primary teaching or nursing etc. And I imagine you would too. Would you?

To answer your 2nd bit there are plenty of male primary teachers tbh[...]

Is this a statement posters would agree with?

It strikes me that in the recent discussions about male teachers, this point has never been made before so it would be interesting to see if it’s a point that posters would agree with or not.

I’ve always thought the consensus on these threads was that there aren’t enough male primary teachers and it’s a problem.

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is this a statement posters would agree with?

It strikes me that in the recent discussions about male teachers, this point has never been made before so it would be interesting to see if it’s a point that posters would agree with or not.

I’ve always thought the consensus on these threads was that there aren’t enough male primary teachers and it’s a problem.

Well from experience anyway I had a few males as primary teachers and my sons teacher is now though he is a older man, could be a new thing Im not too sure.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They’re not my words. I’ll tell you what arguments I want to make and you’ll know because I’ll I make them voluntarily.

Note I’m not asking you to make any random arguments because that’s not really how it works.

No, You will quote someone and then go off on an odd tangent.

Ah well. It was worth a try to get a clear answer from you about discrimination.

py2006

There are only so many times you can bang your head against a wall...

Saruhashi

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is this a statement posters would agree with?

It strikes me that in the recent discussions about male teachers, this point has never been made before so it would be interesting to see if it’s a point that posters would agree with or not.

I’ve always thought the consensus on these threads was that there aren’t enough male primary teachers and it’s a problem.

This might blow your mind but there can be a person who thinks there are "plenty" of male teachers and another person who thinks there are "not enough" male teachers.

I have very VERY rarely seen a consensus on these threads.

If Iseedeadpixels has had a bunch of male teachers and their kids also have a few male teachers then they might say there are plenty of male teachers and, to be honest, I wouldn't really be bothered about pedantically arguing with that.

However, if we are having a conversation about equality in the work place as it relates specifically to men and women then there might be room for an argument that there aren't enough male teachers.

If someone is saying that there should be more women in STEM or even that STEM should be split 50-50 between the genders then it makes sense that, if the number of people in the workforce is finite, we should look for gender equality across all fields.

So one might conclude that if only 20% of teachers are male then that is "not enough".

This is really going to mess with you head though. What if there is a school that has 75% male teachers but that school is in a country where only 25% of teachers are male. People might say "well I have plenty of male teachers BUT there are probably not enough male teachers in general".

Imagine if there was some nuance at the core of the discussion. That would be CRAZY wouldn't it?

Iseedeadpixels

To follow up I went to Irish language schools so could have an effect on numbers....again I dont know.

hots

Imo for teachers, and every other profession, so long as there aren't any gender-specific barriers to entry, I couldn't give a sh/te what's between your legs. Now if men were actively discouraged or weren't picked for panels because they were men it would be a problem, same for women in STEM.

givyjoe

hots wrote: »

Imo for teachers, and every other profession, so long as there aren't any gender-specific barriers to entry, I couldn't give a sh/te what's between your legs. Now if men were actively discouraged or weren't picked for panels because they were men it would be a problem, same for women in STEM.

This does happen in childcare. I was on a course recently with some Creche Managers and the unfortunate reality is that they cannot hire men, simply because they are men. They have tried in the past and have had paranoid and furious parents suspicious of childcare workers, not wanting men near their child 'just in case'. They actively reject men (wont interview them) simply on the basis that they are men, why? Because it's not worth the hassle they will inevitably get from parents.

hots

givyjoe wrote: »

This does happen in childcare. I was on a course recently with some Creche Managers and the unfortunate reality is that they cannot hire men, simply because they are men. They have tried in the past and have had paranoid and furious parents suspicious of childcare workers, not wanting men near their child 'just in case'. They actively reject men (wont interview them) simply on the basis that they are men, why? Because it's not worth the hassle they will inevitably get from parents.

I wasn't thinking of pre-primary tbf. That's shocking, sure they're all garda-vetted and have some sort of qualification these days, couldn't be any more sure. In those cases though I would hope anyone rejected would report them, it's the only way it can be fixed, when legislation is there you have to at least try and use it.

kunst nugget

maybe

givyjoe wrote: »

This does happen in childcare. I was on a course recently with some Creche Managers and the unfortunate reality is that they cannot hire men, simply because they are men. They have tried in the past and have had paranoid and furious parents suspicious of childcare workers, not wanting men near their child 'just in case'. They actively reject men (wont interview them) simply on the basis that they are men, why? Because it's not worth the hassle they will inevitably get from parents.

There was quite a sad thread on the parenting forum where a poster was looking for ways to keep their six year old daughter occupied in the house who doesn't want to play by herself. The obvious answer from most was to arrange play dates but the poster felt that as he was a single man, he didn't think other parents would entertain the idea of their kids being left in his house with just himself there.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057824157

silverharp

from a boy's perspective they don't need all male teachers but having none there would be something missing. My own lad for instance has a male chemistry teacher that is into flash bang explodie experiments so junior is always talking about him at home. It aids engagement , he gets to see more varied teaching styles and that learning can include an element of whimsy.

hots

hots wrote: »

I wasn't thinking of pre-primary tbf. That's shocking, sure they're all garda-vetted and have some sort of qualification these days, couldn't be any more sure. In those cases though I would hope anyone rejected would report them, it's the only way it can be fixed, when legislation is there you have to at least try and use it.

Yes, if you're rejected... but usually you just won't be called back.

When I came back to Ireland a few years back, I tried for kindergarten type jobs, because I have prior experience (and qualifications) from working abroad. However, while I did the interviews, I wasn't informed of the results. Instead, even though there would be no other applicants, the empty position would be held open until a woman could fill it. (learning through the grapevine) My parents who are teachers, (and attested to my character) told me there was no chance of a male being hired for the positions because the parents wouldn't stand for it. Unofficially, of course.

Kinda hard to suggest discrimination then. I've heard similar experiences from African friends living here. Fully qualified and experienced in a role, and simply being ignored after the interview even if there are no immediate alternatives.

Pawwed Rig

There was just once that one of our kids had a male minder in their crèche and he was just a stand in for a short period.
Prior to him commencing work we (all the parents) were asked if we were ok with a man looking after the kids. Never happened with any other employee.

It is a concern tbh as there is a serious lack of male influencers and role models in their lives. I do my best but don't see myself as the definitive male by any stretch.

Wibbs

maybe

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It is a concern tbh as there is a serious lack of male influencers and role models in their lives.

+1

I do my best but don't see myself as the definitive male by any stretch.

Who is P? But you are a good male role model, the more the merrier.

silverharp

ironically there is probably a good niche market if an all male childcare group got together and offered a very outdoorsy experience for 3-4 year olds.

Iseedeadpixels

Heard on the radio about a event on for school kids(no mention of individual genders) to get then interested in STEM....ah bliss :pac:

newport2

py2006 wrote: »

There are only so many times you can bang your head against a wall...

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

Everyone should give their heads a rest and leave the wall to argue with itself....

El_Duderino 09

Iseedeadpixels wrote:

Well from experience anyway I had a few males as primary teachers and my sons teacher is now though he is a older man, could be a new thing Im not too sure.

Fair enough if you haven't seen the threads I'm referring to. Whenever the subject of male teachers is brought up, its exclusively in the context of there not being enough male teachers and it being a problem.

Anyway, this is the question i asked. It was about whether you would support an effort to get men excited about teaching. If you don't see the number of male teachers as a problem then it's fair enough to not have a considered opinion.

So do you have an ideological objection to a campaign to get men excited about teaching as you do with getting women excited about science?

Im asking because you felt there shouldn't be any targeting by demographics to get people excited about science, so presumably you would feel the same about targeting by demographics to get people excited about teaching. It's not a trick question. It's simply to see whether your point re women/science can be generalised to men/teaching.

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I'd completely support an effort to get men excited about primary teaching or nursing etc. And I imagine you would too. Would you?

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

No, You will quote someone and then go off on an odd tangent

Ah well. It was worth a try to get a clear answer from you about discrimination.

Lol. Badger badger badger. If it was something I was interested in discussing then I would make an argument for it. This isn't an AMA.

Find someone who makes that point if you want to discuss it with them but don't think you can badger me to make the arrangements you want to have on demand. This is basic stuff, Klaz.

silverharp

the difference is opportunity cost, a male can make say 50K teaching a year after ~15 years , the same guy might get into IT and be on 75K after 10 years. With the women and science they supposedly are avoiding higher salaries. The incentive is already there go into area where the pay is higher

Iseedeadpixels

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair enough if you haven't seen the threads I'm referring to. Whenever the subject of male teachers is brought up, its exclusively in the context of there not being enough male teachers and it being a problem.

Anyway, this is the question i asked. It was about whether you would support an effort to get men excited about teaching. If you don't see the number of male teachers as a problem then it's fair enough to not have a considered opinion.

So do you have an ideological objection to a campaign to get men excited about teaching as you do with getting women excited about science?

Im asking because you felt there shouldn't be any targeting by demographics to get people excited about science, so presumably you would feel the same about targeting by demographics to get people excited about teaching. It's not a trick question. It's simply to see whether your point re women/science can be generalised to men/teaching.

As I said I think there are enough male teachers so I would consider it a waste of time so I guess I would be vocal enough in objection but as a male would I care as much the science one.....prob not as I dont find it as personal (Son wants to do science)

Again I want to point out that I dont know enough about the stats of male teachers etc and I'm basing it all on personal experience.

El_Duderino 09

Saruhashi wrote:

This might blow your mind but there can be a person who thinks there are "plenty" of male teachers and another person who thinks there are "not enough" male teachers.

However, if we are having a conversation about equality in the work place as it relates specifically to men and women then there might be room for an argument that there aren't enough male teachers.

Might be room for an argument that there aren't enough male teachers? Lol. That argument wasn't couched in such uncertain terms when it was mentioned before. In fact I managed to get agreement from some of the natives of these threads that there should be more efforts to encourage men into teaching IIRC. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, and the discussion is following on from his dreadful it is to encourage women into science. The posters who were once so passionate about encouraging men into teaching are silent.

Saruhashi wrote:

Imagine if there was some nuance at the core of the discussion. That would be CRAZY wouldn't it?

I'm delighted to be the catalyst for nuance in the discussion. Happy to oblige. It was absent when this topic was raised before so it great to see.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote:

from a boy's perspective they don't need all male teachers but having none there would be something missing. My own lad for instance has a male chemistry teacher that is into flash bang explodie experiments so junior is always talking about him at home. It aids engagement , he gets to see more varied teaching styles and that learning can include an element of whimsy.

Pawwed Rig wrote:

It is a concern tbh as there is a serious lack of male influencers and role models in their lives. I do my best but don't see myself as the definitive male by any stretch.

So would you support an effort to get more men excited about teaching?

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So would you support an effort to get more men excited about teaching?

Im not one for campaigns, people probably imagine they have more effect then they do. The proposition for a 17 year old guy is that he needs relatively high grades to go into a profession where he could make more money doing other things. My son who is 13 said a few years back that he wouldn't become a teacher because it doesn't pay enough.

Calhoun

silverharp wrote: »

Im not one for campaigns, people probably imagine they have more effect then they do. The proposition for a 17 year old guy is that he needs relatively high grades to go into a profession where he could make more money doing other things. My son who is 13 said a few years back that he wouldn't become a teacher because it doesn't pay enough.

How do you know it wouldn't speak to others though, if they had targeted recruitment like they do with females in stem areas i bet it would see an uptick in applications.

If working has thought me anything is that not all are driven solely by money, i have worked with people both male and female who are happy to always be entry level people ect.

silverharp

Calhoun wrote: »

How do you know it wouldn't speak to others though, if they had targeted recruitment like they do with females in stem areas i bet it would see an uptick in applications.

If working has thought me anything is that not all are driven solely by money, i have worked with people both male and female who are happy to always be entry level people ect.

its one profession though where kids see it up close, they would have a strong opinion one way or the other. One barrier to entry that does come to mind though is it seems to be a hard profession to get into later in life? Youre right in the sense that there are people who after 10 or 20 years in one profession would happily take a paycut to do something that is perceived to be more fulfilling but outside of some private schools who might be more flexible it appears to be a difficult thing to do.