What happens if you don't pay your ESB?

ebixa82

naughtb4 wrote: »

I had a similar experience to the OP with Electric Ireland and found them to be entirely incompetent and have serious problems with their internal communications. Due to this i had to pay them money for a debt which they had previously indicated had been wiped (through a third party).. In the end i have to pay and will never ever go back. The whole experience was appalling, for example getting letters threathening to cut off my supply for an unpaid bill which had (A) been previously explained and (B) wasnt paid due to a block put on by the company THEMSELVES!!

You cant change if you have a bill of greater than 250 outstanding. Think you are in a tough position OP

The bill was for 280e. I phoned Airtricity to confirm and I have already been switched over. ESB also sent me a closing bill which was for previous bill cycled plus four days of this cycle.

As I said above, the 4 days worked out at €8, so my bill should've been €120 for two months (good for winter usage) but is actually €280.

I completely accept that I am liable for this debt as the account is in my name. I was just unfortunate to move back the month after a gross underestimate was given (and the previous tenant was very lucky!).

ANOTHER THING that pissed me off:

I asked them could they at least tell me the breakdown of the last bill i.e. what amount was attributable to the under-estimate and what was the actual bill for the previous two months. They said it would be impossible to do so, making it very difficult for me to go back to the previous tenant and ask for payment by him.

Akrasia

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

ebixa82

Akrasia wrote: »

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

Won't make any difference. I accept I'm responsible for the whole lot as the bill is in my name. I would have no case in court.

As I said, I'll probably end up having to pay it...but it will be the least of my expense priorities.

Yawns

Akrasia wrote: »

Why haven't you paid them the portion of the bill that you believe you are responsible for. Pay them the 120 euro that you think is your portion and at least that will bring the outstanding balance down and it will look good if you are brought to court (might not make a difference to the judgement though)

As he knows himself he is responsible for the entire bill as it is in his name. It's an unfortunate situation he has found himself in as clearly the tenant received estimated readings and paid those accordingly.

air

Can't see how the ESB have put a foot wrong to be honest.
As for those Lucht heaters, they are no better than any standard convection heater in terms of energy efficiency.
Their "savings" calculation seems to be based on the fact that storage heaters leak most of their heat before it is demanded by the user.
This is only true if you don't require heat in the morning or during the day.

If you have the option to use gas or oil for space heating it will be far cheaper than either option and furthermore if you have a high occupancy rate (home all day) then a storage heater would likely work out far cheaper to run than the Lucht heaters.

Clive

ebixa82 wrote: »

ANOTHER THING that pissed me off
I asked them could they at least tell me the breakdown of the last bill i.e. what amount was attributable to the under-estimate and what was the actual bill for the previous two months. They said it would be impossible to do so, making it very difficult for me to go back to the previous tenant and ask for payment by him.

In fairness to them how could they? They would need an accurate meter reading from two months ago, the estimated reading which was billed and the actual meter reading at the end of the billing period.

They can't monitor usage without meter readings, so they use estimates.

RustyNut

Either they cut you off or take you to court.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

Can't see how the ESB have put a foot wrong to be honest.
As for those Lucht heaters, they are no better than any standard convection heater in terms of energy efficiency.
Their "savings" calculation seems to be based on the fact that storage heaters leak most of their heat before it is demanded by the user.
This is only true if you don't require heat in the morning or during the day.

If you have the option to use gas or oil for space heating it will be far cheaper than either option and furthermore if you have a high occupancy rate (home all day) then a storage heater would likely work out far cheaper to run than the Lucht heaters.

Either way they work out cheaper. I'm home for 2-3 hours in the evening so storage are useless and they are way cheaper to run than traditional electric heaters.

This works out way more economical than gas or oil too.

Clive wrote: »

In fairness to them how could they? They would need an accurate meter reading from two months ago, the estimated reading which was billed and the actual meter reading at the end of the billing period.

They can't monitor usage without meter readings, so they use estimates.

Yes but no need to supply grossly miscalculated meter readings at the same time.

RustyNut wrote: »

Either they cut you off or take you to court.

They can't cut me off as they don't supply my electricity, Airtricity do!

air

Yeah, storage heaters are a disaster if you want heat in the evening, had the same experience myself.
However gas or oil should be a lot cheaper for you than instant electric heating unless maybe you only occupy a small portion of your home? Do you have a wet heating system (gas/oil/solid fuel) available to you?

The estimated bill issue was unfortunate but it's up to you as the bill payer to keep on top of this.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

Yeah, storage heaters are a disaster if you want heat in the evening, had the same experience myself.
However gas or oil should be a lot cheaper for you than instant electric heating unless maybe you only occupy a small portion of your home? Do you have a wet heating system (gas/oil/solid fuel) available to you?

The estimated bill issue was unfortunate but it's up to you as the bill payer to keep on top of this.

It's a small 2 bed apt. No option for anything else. I'd only need the living area heated normally.

The lucht heaters are not standard electric heaters

http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators

I don't know much about the science behind them but they are alot cheaper than normal electric heaters.

Re the bill, as I've said, I'm 100% liable but ESB were horrific to deal with. Had they been in anyway decent I would have stayed with them and paid it off!

air

That's fair enough, it's a travesty that so many apartments were built in this country with no option for anything other than electric heating.

I've read the spiel on the Lucht heaters, they are no more efficient than any other electric heater. It's all smoke and mirrors / snake oil / marketing speak.

There's no getting away from the physics of energy in = energy out, every electric heater is 100% efficient.
There's a bit of scope for varying perceptions of levels of radiant heat with different varieties - halogen vs convection etc but in terms of actually heating the air in a whole room they're all the same.

I appreciate that you are seeing a perceived improvement in energy efficiency vs your storage heaters but you would have seen the same benefits with any instant electric heater.
Storage heaters aren't actually a bad idea if you have to use electric heat (avoid at all costs though), the problem with them is that current models are designed really poorly with hopeless levels of insulation. For someone like you they would have lost all their stored energy to the room already by the time you get home in the evening.

the_syco

One thing to note for the next time you rent your house out: take the reading from the metre and give it to the ESB/etc when the tenant moves out, so that they give an accurate bill to the tenant, and not an estimate.

melekalikimaka

RiseToMe wrote: »

Airticity get their electricity from esb..
However, I don't know if esb can stop supplying you via them

no they dont, company spilt a few years ago.

they can chase the debt, or write it off. as a rule no other supplier will take you on, but thats not always the case

ebixa82

melekalikimaka wrote: »

no they dont, company spilt a few years ago.

they can chase the debt, or write it off. as a rule no other supplier will take you on, but thats not always the case

I think the only reason Airtricity took me on is that I agreed to sign up to direct debit, otherwise they wouldn't have touched me.

Don't understand how ESB haven't got some legal block against this. What's to stop loads of others just building up a massive debt then jumping ship?

The bill I received for 4 days from ESB's closing bill was 8e. So average was 2e per day, 120e for two months. So 160e was from their under-estimate.

Maybe they need to review their estimation process.

Esel

I hope you don't regret moving to Airtricity. I think they have received a lot of negative comments here on Boards, especially regarding their use of Direct Debit system.

air

An estimate is always going to be just that - an estimate, how are the ESB to know that you have installed new heaters and that you usage has changed?
Presumably storage heaters were in use in the apartment for a number of years and thus the ESB's estimates would have been based on that historical usage.

It seems to me that you are looking for excuses for yourself for walking away from a debt which you are liable for fair and square.
It's no concern of the ESB or anyone else if you made a mistake managing your tenancy.

This kind of laissez faire attitude to walking away from debts is a big part of the reason this country is in the state it is in. By rights the ESB and other utilities should be pursuing non payment vigourously through the courts to discourage this kind of behaviour which only increases the cost of utilities for everyone else who pay their bills on time and in full.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

An estimate is always going to be just that - an estimate, how are the ESB to know that you have installed new heaters and that you usage has changed?
Presumably storage heaters were in use in the apartment for a number of years and thus the ESB's estimates would have been based on that historical usage.

It seems to me that you are looking for excuses for yourself for walking away from a debt which you are liable for fair and square.
It's no concern of the ESB or anyone else if you made a mistake managing your tenancy.

This kind of laissez faire attitude to walking away from debts is a big part of the reason this country is in the state it is in. By rights the ESB and other utilities should be pursuing non payment vigourously through the courts to discourage this kind of behaviour which only increases the cost of utilities for everyone else who pay their bills on time and in full.

You've got it backways there. If the estimate was based on historical usage and probable use of storage heaters then the estimate should have been much, much higher...not far lower than what one would expect. You have a background in heating, you should understand that.

As I have said repeatedly I am not walking away from any debt. I cancelled my contract because of the sh.ite customer service arising from the issue.

I never said I wouldn't pay and to date the ESB is not even overdue yet.

ebixa82

Esel wrote: »

I hope you don't regret moving to Airtricity. I think they have received a lot of negative comments here on Boards, especially regarding their use of Direct Debit system.

I know, serious negative press on boards! Two suppliers both as crap as the other by the looks of it.

air

You're correct, I got that wrong, although it's possible that your tentant used the heaters a lot more than you.
Again this is a change that the ESB couldn't hope to predict?
Out of interest how does their estimate compare with the bill for the same period the year before?
In my experience they are reasonably accurate with their estimates.

If you fully intend to pay the bill then why are you asking the question posed by this thread's title?
This thread seems a bit pointless to be honest, it seems you just created it to have a rant about a mistake you made.
I have the height of respect for anyone with the patience to work in customer service and I'm sure you tested their mettle.
You are the account holder, you or your tenants used the energy and thus you need to pay for it.

I understand the mistake that you made and it was unfortunate but what did you seriously expect from customer service - some consolation, a bit of tenderness and a few kind words telling you how unlucky you were? Or maybe you were expecting them to take some of your pain and accept half your losses? Sure while you're at it why not ask them to cover your losses on your bet for ManU in the Champions League - it's about as relevant to them.

In conclusion, if you let a property, either:
1. Take a meter reading and sign the bill over to the tenant.
OR
2. If you remain the bill payer, ensure you take a meter reading when the tenant leaves and don't return their deposit until they pay in full.

If you don't do either of the above you've only yourself to blame for any consequences and only you will be liable for any losses incurred.

the groutch

I have electric storage heating, but rarely use it because I discovered something called a jumper.
Seriously, how hard is it for someone to put on an extra layer or two in the winter?

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

Either they cut you off or take you to court.

ebixa82 wrote: »

They can't cut me off as they don't supply my electricity, Airtricity do!

Court it will be so. The electricity was used and needs to be paid for. If the account was in your name then I would think it was your bad to let the tennant move on with out squaring all their bills as its your name on the debt.

Some lessons don't come cheap.

ebixa82

air wrote: »

You're correct, I got that wrong, although it's possible that your tentant used the heaters a lot more than you.
Again this is a change that the ESB couldn't hope to predict?
Out of interest how does their estimate compare with the bill for the same period the year before?
In my experience they are reasonably accurate with their estimates.

If you fully intend to pay the bill then why are you asking the question posed by this thread's title?
This thread seems a bit pointless to be honest, it seems you just created it to have a rant about a mistake you made.
I have the height of respect for anyone with the patience to work in customer service and I'm sure you tested their mettle.
You are the account holder, you or your tenants used the energy and thus you need to pay for it.

I understand the mistake that you made and it was unfortunate but what did you seriously expect from customer service - some consolation, a bit of tenderness and a few kind words telling you how unlucky you were? Or maybe you were expecting them to take some of your pain and accept half your losses? Sure while you're at it why not ask them to cover your losses on your bet for ManU in the Champions League - it's about as relevant to them.

In conclusion, if you let a property, either:
1. Take a meter reading and sign the bill over to the tenant.
OR
2. If you remain the bill payer, ensure you take a meter reading when the tenant leaves and don't return their deposit until they pay in full.

If you don't do either of the above you've only yourself to blame for any consequences and only you will be liable for any losses incurred.

Again you are contradicting yourself. They could have predicted an increase in winter months based on the previous year's bill. They should have estimated upwards, not downwards.

I do not fully intend to pay the bill, I will if I'm legally forced too. If you read the OP it was asking what are the possible outcomes. Nobody gave a definitive answer either way. As I've said throughout I'll see how far it goes while putting more pressing bills (e.g. my mortgage) ahead of it.

What did I expect from customer service?
A little more than them telling me that the supply seemed fine and there must be a fault and for me to call out an electrician to get it fixed.

They are incompetent, and if they are as incompetent about collecting bills as they are at providing a service I won't worry too much, although I somehow think they are far better at debt collecting.

air

Erm no, I'm not contradicting myself this time, it's possible that your own usage last year was lower than your tenants this year for example.
This would lead to an under estimate this year?

What exactly did you expect from customer service then?
They're there to deal with billing and presumably service issues - I don't know for sure as I've never once needed to contact them in all the time I've had an electricity supply.

Now did you have an issue with your supply? No, not as far as I can tell
Did you have an issue with your billing? No, no reason to think so
So what do you want from them?

I can't see any ethical or moral reason for you not to pay your bill with them.
Presumably they will pursue you in the courts and will likely be granted a judgement against you, this will make it difficult / impossible for you to get a credit card / loan / purchase goods on hire purchase etc. It will also possibly bar you from employment in some sectors.
All this for one month's electricity bill that you rightfully owe?

Have you considered this option? Man up, pay your debts and move on with your life and your intact credit rating.

RustyNut

air wrote: »

In conclusion, if you let a property, either:
1. Take a meter reading and sign the bill over to the tenant.
OR
2. If you remain the bill payer, ensure you take a meter reading when the tenant leaves and don't return their deposit until they pay in full.

If you don't do either of the above you've only yourself to blame for any consequences and only you will be liable for any losses incurred.

This ^^^^^

ebixa82

air wrote: »

What exactly did you expect from customer service then?
They're there to deal with billing and presumably service issues - I don't know for sure as I've never once needed to contact them in all the time I've had an electricity supply.

Now did you have an issue with your supply? No, not as far as I can tell
Did you have an issue with your billing? No, no reason to think so
So what do you want from them?

Yes. Of course I had an issue with my billing and the fact they grossly under-estimated my bill. Surely they have more advanced methods of estimating a more accurate bill.

What did I exepct from customer services?

A bit of knowledge on the subject matter and a hint of professionalism.

D3PO

ebixa82 wrote: »

What did I exepct from customer services?

A bit of knowledge on the subject matter and a hint of professionalism.

Practice what you preach maybe.

You were completely unprofessional. You should have ensured a meter reading and closing bill were taken before your tennant left, you also should have transferred the bill into their name.

You did neither so its completely your own fault.

What did you want their customer services to say ? The electricity was used it has to be paid for the bill is in your name. Tough luck.

ebixa82

D3PO wrote: »

Practice what you preach maybe.

You were completely unprofessional. You should have ensured a meter reading and closing bill were taken before your tennant left, you also should have transferred the bill into their name.

You did neither so its completely your own fault.

What did you want their customer services to say ? The electricity was used it has to be paid for the bill is in your name. Tough luck.

Well said.

air

ebixa82 wrote: »

Yes. Of course I had an issue with my billing and the fact they grossly under-estimated my bill. Surely they have more advanced methods of estimating a more accurate bill.

What did I exepct from customer services?

A bit of knowledge on the subject matter and a hint of professionalism.

How did the estimated bill compare with the one for the same period last year?
I can't see how they have any obligation in regards to accuracy of estimates tbh, they make no difference in the end as they are always rereconciled by the next actual reading.

What would you suggest would have been a knowledgeable and professional outcome from ESB?