Getting back into IT

mytho

To cut a long story short, I graduated with a 2-2 degree in Software Engineering approx 8 years ago. However I decided to pursue a career in the Emergency Services and have never worked in the IT industry(A decision over the last couple of years I have really questioned!). A lot of what I learned in college has been forgotten but I would be confident I could pick it all back up in a short period. Now my question is, what advice would you give me to pursue a career in the industry? i.e should I be doing online courses/ night courses etc and if so which ones??

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

GavinFlud

mytho wrote: »

To cut a long story short, I graduated with a 2-2 degree in Software Engineering approx 8 years ago. However I decided to pursue a career in the Emergency Services and have never worked in the IT industry(A decision over the last couple of years I have really questioned!). A lot of what I learned in college has been forgotten but I would be confident I could pick it all back up in a short period. Now my question is, what advice would you give me to pursue a career in the industry? i.e should I be doing online courses/ night courses etc and if so which ones??

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

8 years? Other than the mainstay languages and processes, a lot of what you learned is probably obsolete.

My advice (I've been programming for four years, so by all means take the advice of more seasoned developers) is to definitely get familiar with a couple of languages again. Read up on software processes (agile seems to be the major buzzword circling at the moment) and brush up on other things you would have learned in college.

With regards to looking for employment, you've got the degree (albeit quite a long time ago) so you're main problem will most likely be convincing an employer that you can actually program.

As I said, I've been programming for only four years and have only been to ten or so interviews, so give more consideration to the advice of more experienced developers and managers.

CreepingDeath

A more recent graduate would have the edge in an interview as they'd have more exposure to todays technologies, eg. J2EE, HTML 5, Android, C# etc.

Are you focusing on software development roles, or any IT job ?

There's various other roles, like software tester, customer support, technical documentation writer to get you started.

If you got a job in a large company you could train yourself up on the development side, with a view to transfer into development in a couple of years.

That would be my angle on it.

If you're looking for a straight transition between your current job and a software development job, that might be tricky with no experience.
So you'd be looking at graduate salaries, if money is a factor here.

ChRoMe

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Are you focusing on software development roles, or any IT job ?

This is the question that needs to be answered definitely before anyone can give any relevant advice.

mytho

ChRoMe wrote: »

This is the question that needs to be answered definitely before anyone can give any relevant advice.

Sorry I should have said in my original post, software development is the area I want to get into, if it means starting in IT support and working up from there it is something I would consider but software development is definitely the long term goal.

markfinn

Rather than start a whole new thread on an identical topic, I shall hijack yours :-P

I got my BSc 2.1 in 1998, spent the next 8 years building up the CV, mainly in Java and Oracle development. After a bad experience in A Certain consulting firm I decided to take a year off to "stretch" and went to China to teach English.

One year off turned into four years, followed by three years working in a startup games company producing a Java based server for an MMO. That finished almost exactly a year ago, and after three years of crunch time (Yeah, I'm older, still seemingly no wiser) I took another year of downtime.

Now I've just had the most embarrassing interview of my life, with some absolutely lovely people for a really great looking role.
Between every basic Java language question that I just couldn't remember, and the vast array of EE stuff that's all changed rather a lot in the last eight years at least 80% of my answers were of the form "Sorry, but I [don't know|can't remember]".

So...
Where to go from here?
Some form of intensive, extensive and focused training seems more or less essential at this point.
Your advice and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

neil_hosey

if i was you, id do a masters part time for a year to refresh your memory, and also expose you to some of the enterprise stuff that weren't around when you were in college or you have forgotten. Choose a language and become proficient in it before doing anything though.

markfinn

neil_hosey wrote: »

if i was you, id do a masters part time for a year to refresh your memory

Definitely on the cards.

ChRoMe

markfinn wrote: »

Definitely on the cards.

I'm of the exact opposite view, write some code! If enterprise java web development is your interest. Go and write a project site using Maven,Spring,Hibernate,mysql and run it on tomcat.

That experience will allow you to breeze past those questions a million times better than a masters.

It also only costs you time.

Sparks

GavinFlud wrote: »

8 years? Other than the mainstay languages and processes, a lot of what you learned is probably obsolete.

Yes, we got rid of math, english, data structures, basic algorithms and TCP/IP in the last eight years. It's all Cloud now...

Less flippantly (sorry Gavin :pac:), if you learnt C, C++, Java, or any language that's been used to teach computer science/computer engineering/software engineering for the last twenty years, relax, they're still amongst the most used languages around. They're just not sexy anymore, the way they were back two decades ago. (Oooooo, C. That sexy little minx. Rarrrrrr! -- seriously, is anyone else tired of using the word "sexy" to describe the tools we use? Do carpenters talk of sexy hammers? Yeesh).

Do definitely start reading again. Don't bother with the language-specific stuff yet, grab your old data structures in <X> and numerical methods in <X> books, read some of the higher level books out there and then start doing some work in whatever language you were most comfortable with in college. Pick an open source project (an active one) maybe and play with that, or start your own.

With regards to looking for employment, you've got the degree (albeit quite a long time ago) so you're main problem will most likely be convincing an employer that you can actually program.

Yes, and you've not been sitting on your behind for the interim either, you've been working in a different field. You might be able to craft some of that experience into your CV if you're clever about it - did you manage any people, were you able to deal with stress or were you the ambulance guy cowering in the corner of the room whimpering "no, the blood, the horror, nooooooo...."?

You may wind up on a management course before you want to be there is the only thing

GavinFlud

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, we got rid of math, english, data structures, basic algorithms and TCP/IP in the last eight years. It's all Cloud now...

I wasn't so much talking about the basics. Things like math, data structures and a knowledge of algorithms will always be needed. I also mentioned that the mainstay languages (Java, C++, etc.) are still commonly used.

However, I didn't think it was advisable to just say that nothing has changed and he'll be able to walk into a development position with no problems.

For example, in the last 8 years a lot of newer ideas, technologies and languages have become commonplace:

• In web services we now have REST being seen as a more than capable (often superior) alternative to SOAP.
• A lot of companies are switching to agile development methods over the seemingly dated processes like the waterfall model.
• The open-source community has sky-rocketed and a lot of employers like to see candidates being active contributors to open-source projects.
• Developers are almost expected to have a knowledge of a high-level programming language such as Ruby or Python since the introduction of Rails/Django.

Again, I know the basics have remained the same, I was just trying to advise the OP to catch up with some of the things that I've listed above, since some of these are 100% going to be asked in an interview.


You're definitely correct with regards to using his experience to his advantage. Working in the emergency services will no doubt have provided the OP with a lot of experience (some that you could probably never get working as a developer) and an ability to handle stressful situations.


As I've said OP, you've got the degree and are aware of the basics. With a little catching up and time spent programming you should be well able to find employment in the field.

neil_hosey

ChRoMe wrote: »

I'm of the exact opposite view, write some code! If enterprise java web development is your interest. Go and write a project site using Maven,Spring,Hibernate,mysql and run it on tomcat.

That experience will allow you to breeze past those questions a million times better than a masters.

It also only costs you time.

But these technologies are complex.. how is he going to just learn dependency injection or IOC for spring off the bat? It requires it to be thought properly, unless you are an experienced dev. Application of design patterns isn't something a grad from 8 years ago with no experience will just pick up. A masters in Software engineering is the best approach imo, assuming they cover enterprise development with a possible placement..

I doubt he has much memory of relational DB's either. How is he expected to figure out hibernate mappings let alone complex joins and hql.. anyway, you get what im trying to say... I think he should do a course.

CreepingDeath

mytho wrote: »

However I decided to pursue a career in the Emergency Services...

Maybe you could merge the two career paths?

Eg. if in the guards, I imagine they have an I.T. department.

If you're on the medical side... then there's courses in "healthcare informatics".

If possible, use your "unrelated" I.T. experience as an asset, not a liability.

razor2013

NetBeans have a lot of class tutorials. The Java EE & Java Web Learning Trail http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/java-ee.html has a lot of good tutorials. There are introductory e-commerce tutorials and more advanced features under Community-Contributed Docs.

ChRoMe

neil_hosey wrote: »

But these technologies are complex.. how is he going to just learn dependency injection or IOC for spring off the bat?

The same way I did, read the docs, write a sample application. This is not rocket surgery.

IS_a_Class

what is rocket surgery?

your suggestion could be compared to telling a commerce graduate who got a 2:2 8 years ago, i.e. did not do much beyond the absolute minimum, to write a book on the finer points of financial econometrics.

returning to college is an eminently fine proposition, ictsklls.ie are offering free places on masters until march 30th

SalteeDog

Reminds me of Lou Sanders' one liner: “I waited an hour for my starter so I complained: ‘It’s not rocket salad.”

Sparks

IS_a_Class wrote: »

what is rocket surgery?

your suggestion could be compared to telling a commerce graduate who got a 2:2 8 years ago, i.e. did not do much beyond the absolute minimum, to write a book on the finer points of financial econometrics.

I think you're comparing apples and alien motherships there in terms of complexity. Building basic hello-world analogues to learn a new technology or language is a very basic activity that we all do regularly.

Also, you do it privately instead of publishing it

returning to college is an eminently fine proposition

It's a possible option. If you can pay for it and have the time for it.
Much as the work they do is critical, we tend not to pay the emergency services salaries that reflect that; so I would imagine that that makes the return to college option a nonrunner for the OP.

ChRoMe

IS_a_Class wrote: »

what is rocket surgery?

A humorous turn of phrase combining two common colloquialisms, rocket science and brain surgery. I've obviously over estimated the abilities of some of the other posters here

ChRoMe

Sparks wrote: »

I think you're comparing apples and alien motherships there in terms of complexity. Building basic hello-world analogues to learn a new technology or language is a very basic activity that we all do regularly.

Well its nice to see someone in the audience is awake. Testing one two one two... I know you are out there I can hear you breathing.

IS_a_Class

1. I pointed the op the way to free courses, that is what the op asked about in his original post

2. it is a highly competitive market out there for jobs, and a 2:2 from 8 years ago plus some online project is unlikely to even get the op an interview.

3. if chromes suggestion is so easily attainable with just a little elbow grease, thn surely the op can do it in his parttime while pursuing a totally free masters, many of which are parttime or if full time only have lectures two days a week

Sparks

(1) is fine;
(2) doesn't match with what I'm seeing; and
(3) isn't chrome's suggestion, it's what we all do, all the time.

And as to the "free masters" you've mentioned, that website doesn't seem to offer any. It seems to offer conversion level 8 diploma courses for people with degrees in other areas to retrain into IT; not level 9 courses (ie. Masters degrees) to people with IT degrees to add to their resumes.

IS_a_Class

fair enough, they are higher diplomas, but there is pretty much no difference between that and a masters apart from the name and number.

what chrome is suggesting is a common and frequent undertaking for any programmer, but my point is, the op isn't a programmer. yet.

just as a person with a 2:2 in commerce from 8 years ago will know little about business or could be considered an accountant.

IS_a_Class

as for the job market not being competitive, can you really defend your position there?

the general consensus on this forum is that not only should a graduate have done very well in their course, but should also have a portfolio, and be contributing actively to an open source project, as well as having amazing social skills, and being humble etc etc.

And if the grad has all that, then and only then, they might get a jobs bridge 9 month internship, but only after signing on for 3 months first. Then for the ones who havent emigrated, or started up their own company in disgust, they might get a job.

the other option is to apply to all the graduate programmes you can, and hope you make it through the whittling down process, but for someone with a 2:2 ,from 8 years ago, and might be seen as too worldly to be given a place on the grad programme, tht is unlikely.

Sparks

IS_a_Class wrote: »

fair enough, they are higher diplomas, but there is pretty much no difference between that and a masters apart from the name and number.

That's so bad, its not even wrong.

what chrome is suggesting is a common and frequent undertaking for any programmer, but my point is, the op isn't a programmer. yet.

With a degree course already under his belt, he definitely is. An experienced professional practitioner, he is not; but he wouldn't be that after a level 8 diploma course either.

IS_a_Class wrote: »

as for the job market not being competitive, can you really defend your position there?

It's not a position, it's an observation.

the general consensus on this forum is that not only should a graduate have done very well in their course, but should also have a portfolio, and be contributing actively to an open source project, as well as having amazing social skills, and being humble etc etc.

No, that's not a general consensus; that's a shopping list of every item from the "what would a perfect grad student have" thread, all mashed together. And that thread is more properly titled "the opposite of all the worst war stories we can aggregate" anyway.

the other option is to apply to all the graduate programmes you can, and hope you make it through the whittling down process, but for someone with a 2:2 ,from 8 years ago, and might be seen as too worldly to be given a place on the grad programme, tht is unlikely.

Again, that's so bad, it's not even wrong.

All the OP needs is to knock the rust off and to start.

IS_a_Class

you keep failing to grasp my point that with a 2:2 from 8 years ago, there's very little to be wiping rust off in the first place.

Also a lot of the courses on the list are great courses, and grads are recruited from those same courses by multinationals every summer.

now to be honest there some turkeys on there too.

I am not sure how qualified you are to be making observations on the job market, perhaps some examples to back up your point might be in order.

Sparks

IS_a_Class wrote: »

you keep failing to grasp my point that with a 2:2 from 8 years ago, there's very little to be wiping rust off in the first place.

From a full degree course in software engineering? Like I said, that's not even wrong.

Also a lot of the courses on the list are great courses, and grads are recruited from those same courses by multinationals every summer.

The multinationals hire from everywhere. And those courses are all conversion courses like the one you've talked about doing yourself earlier, they're not something I'd advise anyone to do who already has a degree in the field.

And incidentally, the multinationals are desperate for decent programmers because there's a perennial shortage of them. It's not like they're sitting around waiting for those courses to end before even thinking of hiring anyone.

GavinFlud

you keep failing to grasp my point that with a 2:2 from 8 years ago, there's very little to be wiping rust off in the first place.

I do tend to agree with you here. A 2:2 gives the impression that the OP wasn't anything spectacular in college (though this is clearly not indicative of him now, since he's spent 8 years in the emergency services). Besides being graduating with slightly less than an average degree, how much of what he learned will he be able to remember after 8 years in an entirely different industry.

That being said, I agree with Sparks on almost all the other points. The OP already has the degree, regardless of how much he remembers from it. He also has 8 years experience in a very tough job. What he needs now is to start programming and get back in to the swing of things. If he can manage to pick up some of the critical theory along the way then he should be fine.

SalteeDog

Sparks wrote: »

And incidentally, the multinationals are desperate for decent programmers because there's a perennial shortage of them. It's not like they're sitting around waiting for those courses to end before even thinking of hiring anyone.

True.