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Property tax letter

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  • 07-03-2013 6:13pm
    #1
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭


    Just listening to Mat Cooper's show and how the new property tax is going to be handled.

    Apparently, if you are renting a property and your landlord is not registered with the PRTB, the letter will be addressed to the tenant. If this occurs the tenant is advised to contact revenue immediately. If the tenant does not advise revenue they will be liable for the tax and associated penalties.

    A lot of landlords who are not tax compliant are going to have a very bad year.


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    #2
    TheBandicoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭TheBandicoot


    Good.


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    #3
    mattser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭mattser


    How do Revenue know the property is rented if it's not registered with PRTB, & owner is non-compliant ?


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    #4
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭testicle


    mattser wrote: »
    How do Revenue know the property is rented if it's not registered with PRTB, & owner is non-compliant ?

    The tenant will tell them because they're not going to pay the LPT for the landlord.


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    #5
    ameee
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭ameee


    If they don't know if the property is rented they won't have a specific name to send it to though. When i was renting i never opened any mail that wasn't addressed to me specifically. If they can't chase the owners they are probably not going to have better luck chasing tenants who can just move or put down a different name or not not even open it to begin with.


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    #6
    mattser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭mattser


    ameee wrote: »
    If they don't know if the property is rented they won't have a specific name to send it to though. When i was renting i never opened any mail that wasn't addressed to me specifically. If they can't chase the owners they are probably not going to have better luck chasing tenants who can just move or put down a different name or not not even open it to begin with.

    Exactly.


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    #7
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭Sarn


    Revenue said that they would use your revenue information on file. If you never open the post, but revenue can place you at that address based on the information that they have on file (from you or your employer), and in the absence of a known owner, then the letter will be addressed to you.


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    #8
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Would revenue not know who owned the property from stamp duty payments?


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    #9
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Chaotic mess of a system.

    It's time for an ID card associated to a fixed address IMO.

    There are already all manner of places your data is stored electronically even if you don't want it (Revenue databases for example). It's time this stuff was linked up properly.

    When I bought a flat in Germany from Ireland, I received a letter in Dublin within a few days of completion FROM THE GERMAN TAX OFFICE asking me what I had in mind for the flat (owner occupier, BTL etc.) and telling me how much property tax was due and when.

    Revenue should not need to send out "to the occupant" type letters here. It's a joke that they will have to do so (and they will have to IMO). The systems should be connected and all property should be registered (there are homes in Ireland in 2013 that are not recorded ANYWHERE). Unregistered and Registry of Deeds properties should be transferred to the Land Registry and it should all be easily searchable and linked up.

    Edit: I'm not blaming Revenue here. They can only work within the framework they have.


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    #10
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Scortho wrote: »
    Would revenue not know who owned the property from stamp duty payments?
    Inherited property would likely have no stamp duty paid on it by the current owners.


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    #11
    d9oiu2wk07blr5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭d9oiu2wk07blr5


    mattser wrote: »
    How do Revenue know the property is rented if it's not registered with PRTB, & owner is non-compliant ?

    Revenue hasn't got a clue who owns what...hence the reason why they're threatening all unsundry with fines if they don't declare who the owner of a property is.


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    #12
    Think_then_talk
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Think_then_talk


    testicle wrote: »
    The tenant will tell them because they're not going to pay the LPT for the landlord.

    In the long run the tenant is going to pay it. Like it or not:mad:


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    #13
    bobbygyrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭bobbygyrl


    Agree with Think_then_talk . . . . landlord will just up the rent the cover the cost of the property tax.


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    #14
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bobbygyrl wrote: »
    Agree with Think_then_talk . . . . landlord will just up the rent the cover the cost of the property tax.
    Of course he will. Why wouldn't he? It's a universal cost associated with residential property. Most LL's however will not increase existing leases, but will wait for the next break, but it will eventually be passed on to all tenants, as it should be.


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    #15
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    murphaph wrote: »
    Inherited property would likely have no stamp duty paid on it by the current owners.
    True never thought of that. Cheers.


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    #16
    John Mason
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    Scortho wrote: »
    Would revenue not know who owned the property from stamp duty payments?

    i didnt pay stamp duty on my house, as it was under the threshold.


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    #17
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    John Mason wrote: »

    i didnt pay stamp duty on my house, as it was under the threshold.
    You learn something new everyday:)


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    #18
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    murphaph wrote: »
    Of course he will. Why wouldn't he? It's a universal cost associated with residential property. Most LL's however will not increase existing leases, but will wait for the next break, but it will eventually be passed on to all tenants, as it should be.

    Remember reading somewhere on here (think it was Darren's investment thread in property) where the landlord got the tenants to sign that they paid the taxes due, but it had no effect on the rent they paid. It meant that the landlord could reduce his income tax on the rental income as revenue can't charge you for collecting tax. I may have picked up on that wrong though bit would it be legal?


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    #19
    Think_then_talk
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Think_then_talk


    Scortho wrote: »
    Remember reading somewhere on here (think it was Darren's investment thread in property) where the landlord got the tenants to sign that they paid the taxes due, but it had no effect on the rent they paid. It meant that the landlord could reduce his income tax on the rental income as revenue can't charge you for collecting tax. I may have picked up on that wrong though bit would it be legal?

    The tenant's pay the tax & gives the landlord the balance. Now they have the tenant's working for the vat man..


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    #20
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Revenue have access to ESB records, amongst others.

    Very few rented properties have no electricity. Looks like they'll be able unearth quite a few non tax compliant landlords!


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    #21
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Sarn wrote: »
    Just listening to Mat Cooper's show and how the new property tax is going to be handled.

    Apparently, if you are renting a property and your landlord is not registered with the PRTB, the letter will be addressed to the tenant. If this occurs the tenant is advised to contact revenue immediately. If the tenant does not advise revenue they will be liable for the tax and associated penalties.

    A lot of landlords who are not tax compliant are going to have a very bad year.

    I would like to see the documentation/legislation that states a tenant can be penalised for non compliance in relation to a tax that is of no concern to them.
    It sounds like an idle threat to make tenants do the investigation work on behalf of the Revenue through fear.


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    #22
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/obligations.html
    If you don’t submit a Return, or contact Revenue to say why you are not liable Revenue will pursue you for this estimated amount of tax...

    The tenant only must state that they are not the owner.
    There does not appear to be any onus on the tenant to provide anything further.


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    #23
    ameee
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭ameee


    Zamboni wrote: »
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/obligations.html



    The tenant only must state that they are not the owner.
    There does not appear to be any onus on the tenant to provide anything further.

    Sure if the tenant goes through an agent they may not have any of the landlords details or at least could claim they dont.


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    #24
    Rasmus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Rasmus


    Zamboni wrote: »
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/obligations.html



    The tenant only must state that they are not the owner.
    There does not appear to be any onus on the tenant to provide anything further.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/liable-persons.html#section2

    It says here the tenant must support their claim [of non-liability] with documentation and provide details of who is liable. A lease should be good enough proof of this, I would imagine.


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    #25
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    I know people who bought a house under the Affordable Housing Scheme are liable for the property tax, but at what level to they value their property at? As they only are entitled to 2/3s of the sale price if they were they sell it, do they base their estimate on the value to them or the entire value?


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    #26
    limklad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Yes there will be many people who will afford to comply with this Tax. The Rich and the poor (Exempt) The rest will be force to pay whenever they can afford to or not.

    Josephine Feehily will probably be the most hated Irish female right now for issuing all those letters with added complications admitted with her by her own comments.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0307/3498700-interview-revenue-chairperson-josephine-feehily/
    Micheal Noonan will be the most hated male.

    I can also see a lot of rents rising putting more pressures to those who can barely afford to rent where ever the Landlord is complying with the Laws of the state or not.

    I can see more people defaulting on their mortgages and a lot of people punished because they cannot afford to pay with rising cost and rising taxes and cuts in wages.

    I can see more family courts going force fathers to pay this tax for houses they do not live in and no longer own as it sign over the the mother of his child as the Tax is additional expense to support his child/ren and its mother and probably her other children and partners. They probably cannot afford to pay more, most will default on payments.

    I can see more suicides and unnecessary additional pain to people who will no longer want to obey the law and society ethics as this letter with other financial pressures will break the last of their mental strength along with their financial back. They will say "I am damn if I do, and I am damn if I don't, so why bother paying? why bother living? The government, the politicians and state do not represent me and have failed me".

    I feel sorry and sympthy for all those people who are in financial pain and who will have to face this terrible letter.


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    #27
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    jack presley wrote: »
    I know people who bought a house under the Affordable Housing Scheme are liable for the property tax, but at what level to they value their property at? As they only are entitled to 2/3s of the sale price if they were they sell it, do they base their estimate on the value to them or the entire value?

    entire value.


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    #28
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    D3PO wrote: »
    entire value.

    Thanks. Where did you read or see that that was the case?


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    #29
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    jack presley wrote: »
    Thanks. Where did you read or see that that was the case?

    had a friend ring revenue directly for the very same query.


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    #30
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    surely this could be addressed as to the current resider at X address, on envelope make it bloody obvious what it is and who its from...


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    #31
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Rasmus wrote: »
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/liable-persons.html#section2

    It says here the tenant must support their claim [of non-liability] with documentation and provide details of who is liable. A lease should be good enough proof of this, I would imagine.
    Thanks for the link, I failed to see this in my earlier scan!
    2. What should I do if I receive an LPT Return in my name but I am not the owner of the residential property?

    Within 30 days of receiving the LPT Return, you should write to Revenue and include the following information:

    Explain why you do not consider yourself to be the liable person,
    Whatever supporting documentation that may be relevant, and
    The name(s), address(es)and PPSN(s) of the liable person(s).

    Based on this information Revenue will make a determination on the matter. If you fail to satisfy Revenue that you are not the liable person, you will be liable to pay the LPT on the residential property.

    I don't see how any of this is legal as I don't see where it is covered under the legislation.
    It is coercion by the Revenue on tenants.


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