revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You are giving legal advice. And it is wrong.

12.—In administering this Act generally or in exercising any power
to make an estimate or an assessment or to require the delivery of a
return in relation to any relevant residential property or in exercising
any other power thereunder
(a) the Revenue Commissioners shall not be required firstly
to inquire into the ownership of, or title to, any particular
residential property, and
(b) all such facts and circumstances relating to the occupation
of a residential property by a person as give rise to an
inference that that person is the owner thereof may be
taken into account by the Revenue Commissioners

I am not giving legal advice at all. I am stating things as I see them.
If a letter comes in my door and I take it and put it in the letterbox of a vacant house then how do they know I got it? It turns up years later when the owner returns from Australia.

delw

tayto lover wrote: »

Revenue need you to fill-in and return their form.
If you do then they have you.
If you don't then they don't have your details so can't charge you.
They can send letters to the person named on the ESB bill but they can't say who should be paying.
Return nothing, don't open the door to strangers and they can do nothing about it.

Can i ask a genuine question,if a person/household are to fill in this form & value their property themselves what is stopping them under valuing the property a good bit?

Dionysius2

The only possible conclusion one can come to after reading through this thread is that the Irish support democracy ONLY when they agree with it. In other words, it must always represent your point of view or you will act in opposition to it. The real problem, can I suggest, is that we are not in charge of our own affairs long enough to know what democracy really means.

And if we are to judge from the almighty mess we made of it for the 80 years or so that we have had it, is it any wonder that we are in the dire straits that we are ? But then again our rulers and administrators comprised too many corrupt politicians, a dishonest and negligent church, and a whole plethora of official entities who basically worked largely to their own specifications and filled their pockets in the process.
Can anyone say that is not true ?

As regards dumping on the Revenue people, aren't they merely doing what the government is ordering them to do and that's supposed to be the way governance works, isn't it ?

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not giving legal advice at all. I am stating things as I see them.
If a letter comes in my door and I take it and put it in the letterbox of a vacant house then how do they know I got it? It turns up years later when the owner returns from Australia.

49.—Subject to section 55, where a person is notified of a Revenue
estimate and does not prepare and deliver a return which contains a
self-assessment and an election for a specified method of payment,
the Revenue estimate shall be due and payable as if it were an
amount of local property tax contained in a Revenue assessment
made under section 55.

When it becomes due and payable it can be collected from wages, SW, Farm Payments etc or when the property changes hands. I would read notified to mean the letter you put in your neighbour's letterbox.

dxhound2005

Dionysius2 wrote: »

The only possible conclusion one can come to after reading through this thread is that the Irish support democracy ONLY when they agree with it. In other words, it must always represent your point of view or you will act in opposition to it. The real problem, can I suggest, is that we are not in charge of our own affairs long enough to know what democracy really means.

And if we are to judge from the almighty mess we made of it for the 80 years or so that we have had it, is it any wonder that we are in the dire straits that we are ? But then again our rulers and administrators comprised too many corrupt politicians, a dishonest and negligent church, and a whole plethora of official entities who basically worked largely to their own specifications and filled their pockets in the process.
Can anyone say that is not true ?

As regards dumping on the Revenue people, aren't they merely doing what the government is ordering them to do and that's supposed to be the way governance works, isn't it ?

How are you getting on yourself? Are you one of the people with no money left after paying for essentials? Luckily other people have enough ingenuity in the face of the plethora of adversities you outlined to still be the 14th richest per capita in the world. Not bad.

http://www.therichest.org/nation/richest-countries-in-the-world/

Chips Lovell

Wibbs wrote: »

Ask yourself why would people not pay. I've three mates in arrears. The banks and the debt collection agencies they hand it over to are ringing these people daily, sometimes in the middle of the night(no I'm not kidding), they call to their door. In one guys case on a Sunday. On top of that are the financial penalties accrued which really bloody add up to the point of sheer usury IMH. It would be so much simpler to just pay. From my experience, such as it is, they're not paying because they quite simply can't.

Here's the thing. You know as well as I do, that they're going to raise the money somehow. For me, I'd prefer if they did it this way than through the old reliables such as raising income tax again or cutting social welfare rates. Rather than shaft the same people over and over, it drags more people into the tax net that haven't been pulling their weight to date, like those living off property and investments. Sure we all get hit with it too, but at least those guys have to start paying as well (and become way more visible to the Revenue). It's not surprising that its landlords who're they ones challenging it in court.

I like the idea of a property tax in that goes some way to reforming a taxation system that was an absolute recipe for disaster (as we found out). Instead of relying heavily on transactional or wage taxes, which can vary wildly between boom and bust, this at least provides some steady revenue that won't change that much between good times and bad.

And at least it provides some alternatives for those struggling to pay, such as staggering payments or opting to defer it. Yep you get hit with interest, but at least you can put it off, rather than see your take home pay cut by an income tax hike or your dole cut, which you can't defer.

In short, I'd much prefer this than seeing income tax hiked again.

Bullseye1

Are you saying people are not suffering and have seen a huge drop in living standards? Are you a highly paid civil servant or government spin doctor? You seem to be sheltered. Maybe you should be paying much more tax.

Bullseye1

Why shouldn't income tax be increased? It at least a tax based on your ability to pay. Home owners don't make any income from their homes, in fact it costs them money to maintain and run. It also does not take into account ones ability to pay. And anyone who has bought in the past ten years are sitting on mortgages for properties which are worth up to 50% what they paid.

I'm all for increases in income tax and having more bands. They can have almost ten bands for the property tax but not for income. Give me a break.

Chips Lovell

Income Tax is about as much linked to your ability to pay as property tax is. For example, the salary that allows someone with no family and no borrowings to live comfortably on might have a family with four kids and a big mortgage and other borrowings struggling. Ditto with property tax. I could own a €250,000 house and afford to pay fine. Someone else could be struggling. All of these taxes only take wealth into account on a fairly broad basis.

And you can't defer income tax.

Bullseye1

They have changed the treshold on PRSi. They have already hit people's take home pay. Their arguments for touching income tax is laughable, especially for those of is who are self employed.

Dionysius2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How are you getting on yourself? Are you one of the people with no money left after paying for essentials? Luckily other people have enough ingenuity in the face of the plethora of adversities you outlined to still be the 14th richest per capita in the world. Not bad.

http://www.therichest.org/nation/richest-countries-in-the-world/

I dislike every bloody demand for more cash with which we are officially encumbered. I am not very well off but I can manage the basics and have lots of concerns about how I will cope in the time ahead. Having lived a life of tax compliance this far I find it hard to believe that I must now abandon my democratic leanings and turn myself into some kind of renegade opposed to the rule of law.

MadYaker

tayto lover wrote: »

Revenue need you to fill-in and return their form.
If you do then they have you.
If you don't then they don't have your details so can't charge you.
They can send letters to the person named on the ESB bill but they can't say who should be paying.
Return nothing, don't open the door to strangers and they can do nothing about it.

I think he must be trolling he can't possibly think that this would actually work.

Le_Dieux

Sergeant wrote: »

How do you suggest that the Government generate revenue to supply the country with the services and structures that we've become accustomed to?

Just for a start.....slash their own salaries, perks, kwango's ( which mr ek promised he would do, but appears not to have the balls to carry this promise out), have a big look at the LA's. We have a glass house up in Naas, which must have cost an absolute fortune. EG of inneptitude: I applied for my new card driving license 4-5 weeks ago, was told I will have the card within 3 weeks, yet only last week, i got my CC payment slip, with the following written on a piece of paper: You will have Your new license IN DUE COURSE.

Get govt departments working like a 1st world country, and stop acting like a third world dictatorsship.

After all above is done, then perhaps start hammering the slave in the street.

Le_Dieux

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

There are very very few families bordering on poverty in Ireland.

BOLD statement...PROOF please!!!

Le_Dieux

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

What is your definition of poverty out of interest?

YOU made the statement, what is YOUR definition?

Le_Dieux

professore wrote: »

Even on a ministers salary, 1.9 million is unaffordable.

Salary?? What about the perks and backhanders??:P

Le_Dieux

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Local Co. Councils were collecting that. They are ineffectual and toothless. The revenue is a far different animal, sporting great big shark-like jaws.

If so ( and I would tend to agree with you beased on my experiences ), WTF are we doing paying these incompetent clowns? Therin is part of the problem...wasteage.

Le_Dieux

Bruthal wrote: »

The ones who advocate that, are always ones not affected themselves.

Give up your sky, your broadband, your mobile phone etc, then you can pay more and more tax.

On another note, I see a house worth €0 (if it existed, but they do specify it) would be liable for €90 tax. So there ends that rubbish that it is a wealth tax.

Hi B

Mind me asking whats the link to check the valuation on my house? Am shít scared to download their pdf file as it may give away my id. I don't trust these gang one bit, and believe they'll do ANYTHING to get my details.

bgrizzley

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Hi B

Mind me asking whats the link to check the valuation on my house? Am shít scared to download their pdf file as it may give away my id. I don't trust these gang one bit, and believe they'll do ANYTHING to get my details.

LD, i'd be careful about using that map on revenues website to pinpoint your house.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gps-style-technology-to-help-revenue-make-out-property-tax-bills-585202.html

tinfoil hat stuff, but better safe than sorry.:eek:

preddy

I wouldnt mind paying if:

1. The money would actually go to improving my area, keep my green areas tidy, fix the roads, actually do something when the pipes freeze.
2. Take care of waste.
3. The money wasnt really being used to pay bank bond holders, cause it is!
4. Or if hell froze over.

TwoShedsJackson

delw wrote: »

Can i ask a genuine question,if a person/household are to fill in this form & value their property themselves what is stopping them under valuing the property a good bit?

Nothing stopping you at all. But when the Revenue check the area and see you have under-valued it they will have the right to come out and inspect it, and change the valuation themselves as they see fit.

Then they'll charge you penalties and interest on what you should have paid in the first place etc. etc.

the groutch

dxhound2005 wrote: »

49.—Subject to section 55, where a person is notified of a Revenue
estimate and does not prepare and deliver a return which contains a
self-assessment and an election for a specified method of payment,
the Revenue estimate shall be due and payable as if it were an
amount of local property tax contained in a Revenue assessment
made under section 55.

When it becomes due and payable it can be collected from wages, SW, Farm Payments etc or when the property changes hands. I would read notified to mean the letter you put in your neighbour's letterbox.

unless they send it by registered post and have your signature, how can they prove that it was sent?

Banjo String

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Nothing stopping you at all. But when the Revenue check the area and see you have under-valued it they will have the right to come out and inspect it, and change the valuation themselves as they see fit.

Then they'll charge you penalties and interest on what you should have paid in the first place etc. etc.

Likewise if they over value it two sheds.

Take the scenario, revenue value your home at 400k, you pay tax rate applicable to that band for x amount of years.

House goes on market, sells for 200k, firstly house remained on market for twice as long as it should have, due to buyers skimming/filtering past the asking price, resulting in several price drops from the seller.

House then sells, at 50% less than revenue (long established auctioneers and valuers don't ya know) 'guideline valued' it at.

No refund on over taxation either.

Democracy? Yeah right.

Chips Lovell

the groutch wrote: »

unless they send it by registered post and have your signature, how can they prove that it was sent?

I'd probably read the rest of the act before assuming that non-receipt of an estimate exempts you.

Banjo String

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'd probably read the rest of the act before assuming that non-receipt of an estimate exempts you.

If revenue face the same rate of non compliance, and non engagement as the household charge faced, half a million households should certainly be enough to throw a spanner in the works.

Add to this the already mountainous task they have from the real tax evaders in the country, they'll certainly have their hands full.

I'm off to unload some garlic , err, i mean apples.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Income Tax is about as much linked to your ability to pay as property tax is. For example, the salary that allows someone with no family and no borrowings to live comfortably on might have a family with four kids and a big mortgage and other borrowings struggling. Ditto with property tax. I could own a €250,000 house and afford to pay fine. Someone else could be struggling. All of these taxes only take wealth into account on a fairly broad basis.

And you can't defer income tax.

I for one would far rather have a rise in my income tax than an attack on my home. My family live in the house and some of them don't pay income tax but they are being targeted because they live there.
The only reason that the income tax is being left alone is to again protect their rich friends and you well know that.

smash

SamHall wrote: »

If revenue face the same rate of non compliance, and non engagement as the household charge faced, half a million households should certainly be enough to throw a spanner in the works.

They'll just take it at source from your wages.

Cantona's Collars

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Hi B

Mind me asking whats the link to check the valuation on my house? Am shít scared to download their pdf file as it may give away my id. I don't trust these gang one bit, and believe they'll do ANYTHING to get my details.

Peerblock is your friend;)

Nobody has really clarified this but are LA houses exempt ala the HHC?

These are the areas that cost the most to upkeep yet pay the least

I bought my house,put money into making it a home & having the garden etc. looking nice yet if I decided to leave it like a kip I'd pay less tax on it-does not compute!

the groutch

tayto lover wrote: »

The only reason that the income tax is being left alone is to again protect their rich friends and you well know that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkxvIaKsFU

Banjo String

smash wrote: »

They'll just take it at source from your wages.

And like I've said on thread, and in public.

Steal it from me, and I'll claw it back via my tax returns, and cash transactions for services needed.

I'm a tax compliant citizen up to this point btw, but I paid the equivalent of 50 years of this proposed property tax, only in 07.

When they take that into account, or refund it, I'll go meekly and pay my share.

I will not line the coffers twice though.

tayto lover

Man at door ---- "I'm from the Revenue and i'm looking for your Property Tax"

Tayto

---

"Come on in and i'll help you search for it".

MadYaker

Nobody will be calling to your house to collect it....

username123

SamHall wrote: »

Add to this the already mountainous task they have from the real tax evaders in the country, they'll certainly have their hands full.

This is it!!! The Five Point Plan - in action!

1. Introduce an unfair and contentious tax.
2. Get everyone riled up with the media reporting all sorts of threats.
3. Make sure ability to pay is irrelevant.
4. Have Revenue overrun with non payers, people paying the wrong amount, etc...
5. Have to employ more people in Revenue!

Ill send them a CV. But not the tax

Chips Lovell

zerks wrote: »

Nobody has really clarified this but are LA houses exempt ala the HHC?

Surprisingly, they're not exempt.

ART6

I read in the newspapers that the chairman (woman -- person) who is the chief executive of the Revenue Commissioners has warned staff in revenue offices to be aware of the dangers of public reactions to this tax. She has stressed that "measures are in place to deal with that".

No-one can condone threats the Revenue staff, who are only doing their jobs while they have them, and are probably just as much affected by this draconian tax as everyone else. However, I can't help thinking that if this woman (wolf) has kept her lips a little more tightly buttoned and not issued so many threats to pursue non-payers to the grave and beyond, her staff might not be quite so much at risk?

Oh well, welcome to democratic Ireland, where a civil servant can threaten the people and the ministers don't give a damn what anyone thinks because they have now passed the date at which their pensions become guaranteed (after two years!). Twenty one million euros of them, if anyone is interested.

Just lately I have had this recurring dream where I have been buried in my local churchyard, propping up the foundations of the church with my mortal remains. Then one day there will be a firm knocking on my box. It will be an official from the Revenue who will point out to me that the FG/Labour government has decided that a plot in a graveyard constitutes and asset, and so I now owe them XXX euros per annum in local council tax or I will be evicted and my hole in the ground will be sold to recover my debt. Having no money I will have to leave, and a bank using money provided by living taxpayers will acquire my plot for a knock-down price (with several thousand others). They will then sell my hole in the ground to someone else in a mortgage agreement that will allow them to repossess that hole whenever they choose.

I will be forced to wander the earth with the flesh hanging off my bones. I won't even be able to join the Boards.ie zombie forum because I won't have the means of paying the new TV licence fee even if my decaying fingers could work a keyboard. Others will, of course, be affected, and if this carries on then sooner or later Ireland will become a nation of zombies in debt to the banks and the ECB (what? Happened already?).

The only thought that gives me any comfort is that when that archangel guy finally decides to blow his trumpet, I might meet Kenny, Noonan, Hogan, Howlin and all of the other chancers and give each a firm kick up the a**e.:)

Boombastic

ART6 wrote: »

I read in the newspapers that the chairman (woman -- person) who is the chief executive of the Revenue Commissioners has warned staff in revenue offices to be aware of the dangers of public reactions to this tax. She has stressed that "measures are in place to deal with that".

No-one can condone threats the Revenue staff, who are only doing their jobs while they have them, and are probably just as much affected by this draconian tax as everyone else. However, I can't help thinking that if this woman (wolf) has kept her lips a little more tightly buttoned and not issued so many threats to pursue non-payers to the grave and beyond, her staff might not be quite so much at risk?

Oh well, welcome to democratic Ireland, where a civil servant can threaten the people and the ministers don't give a damn what anyone thinks because they have now passed the date at which their pensions become guaranteed (after two years!). Twenty one million euros of them, if anyone is interested.

Just lately I have had this recurring dream where I have been buried in my local churchyard, propping up the foundations of the church with my mortal remains. Then one day there will be a firm knocking on my box. It will be an official from the Revenue who will point out to me that the FG/Labour government has decided that a plot in a graveyard constitutes and asset, and so I now owe them XXX euros per annum in local council tax or I will be evicted and my hole in the ground will be sold to recover my debt. Having no money I will have to leave, and a bank using money provided by living taxpayers will acquire my plot for a knock-down price (with several thousand others). They will then sell my hole in the ground to someone else in a mortgage agreement that will allow them to repossess that hole whenever they choose.

I will be forced to wander the earth with the flesh hanging off my bones. I won't even be able to join the Boards.ie zombie forum because I won't have the means of paying the new TV licence fee even if my decaying fingers could work a keyboard. Others will, of course, be affected, and if this carries on then sooner or later Ireland will become a nation of zombies in debt to the banks and the ECB (what? Happened already?).

The only thought that gives me any comfort is that when that archangel guy finally decides to blow his trumpet, I might meet Kenny, Noonan, Hogan, Howlin and all of the other chancers and give each a firm kick up the a**e.:)

Sure they're only following orders, now where have I heard that before? Let me think....

Chips Lovell

Josephine Feehily didn't write the legislation

bgrizzley

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Surprisingly, they're not exempt.

wow, ive just seen this. probably the only smart move they made since the start of the hhc/lpt debacle. exempting them for the HHC so as to have less opposition, then roping them as low hanging fruit for the LPT.

Another example of FG divide and conquer techniques.

Bruthal

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Hi B

Mind me asking whats the link to check the valuation on my house? Am shít scared to download their pdf file as it may give away my id. I don't trust these gang one bit, and believe they'll do ANYTHING to get my details.

Here is the map thing, a bit vague as said,

Once you see their estimated band for your house by clicking "view map" after you select the county, house type and before or after year 2000, the tax is midway in the bad x 0.0018, so for band 150 - 200k, its 175k x 0.0018 = €315 for 2014, and €157 for this year.

On the map you click your area to get their estimate of average house values within the area that will be highlighted when you click the map.

No need to worry about downloading the PDF anyway.

Le_Dieux

ART6 wrote: »

I read in the newspapers that the chairman (woman -- person) who is the chief executive of the Revenue Commissioners has warned staff in revenue offices to be aware of the dangers of public reactions to this tax. She has stressed that "measures are in place to deal with that".

No-one can condone threats the Revenue staff, who are only doing their jobs while they have them, and are probably just as much affected by this draconian tax as everyone else. However, I can't help thinking that if this woman (wolf) has kept her lips a little more tightly buttoned and not issued so many threats to pursue non-payers to the grave and beyond, her staff might not be quite so much at risk?

Oh well, welcome to democratic Ireland, where a civil servant can threaten the people and the ministers don't give a damn what anyone thinks because they have now passed the date at which their pensions become guaranteed (after two years!). Twenty one million euros of them, if anyone is interested.

Just lately I have had this recurring dream where I have been buried in my local churchyard, propping up the foundations of the church with my mortal remains. Then one day there will be a firm knocking on my box. It will be an official from the Revenue who will point out to me that the FG/Labour government has decided that a plot in a graveyard constitutes and asset, and so I now owe them XXX euros per annum in local council tax or I will be evicted and my hole in the ground will be sold to recover my debt. Having no money I will have to leave, and a bank using money provided by living taxpayers will acquire my plot for a knock-down price (with several thousand others). They will then sell my hole in the ground to someone else in a mortgage agreement that will allow them to repossess that hole whenever they choose.

I will be forced to wander the earth with the flesh hanging off my bones. I won't even be able to join the Boards.ie zombie forum because I won't have the means of paying the new TV licence fee even if my decaying fingers could work a keyboard. Others will, of course, be affected, and if this carries on then sooner or later Ireland will become a nation of zombies in debt to the banks and the ECB (what? Happened already?).

The only thought that gives me any comfort is that when that archangel guy finally decides to blow his trumpet, I might meet Kenny, Noonan, Hogan, Howlin and all of the other chancers and give each a firm kick up the a**e.:)

The woman You are referring to was on the PK show. Think She is arrogant? Earlier that morning I heard Varadker on Morning Ireland. Man, He is one arrogant bastard. Turned me off straight away.

Bruthal

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Income Tax is about as much linked to your ability to pay as property tax is.

Income tax does take account of income, property tax does not.

If the person is struggling, then the income tax may not take account of it directly. but will the property tax bill reduce when a persons income is slashed?

Bruthal

Le_Dieux wrote: »

The woman You are referring to was on the PK show. Think She is arrogant? Earlier that morning I heard Varadker on Morning Ireland. Man, He is one arrogant bastard. Turned me off straight away.

He was some buachaill alright, the usual manner of being detached and unaffected by the serious problems of people he mentioned when he said if they cant afford their bills and mortgages, the property tax will be the least of their problems.

ART6

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Josephine Feehily didn't write the legislation

No. But she could, perhaps, stop issuing threats to the people who pay her exalted salary as a public SERVANT.

smash

I wouldnt want to see anyone getting threats but I'd love to see the revenue staff go on strike because of the possibility of threats.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Josephine Feehily didn't write the legislation

Maybe not but she did display a fair degree of venom.

smileyj1987

If your house it worth less then the mortgage then they owe you money !

squod

ART6 wrote: »

only doing their jobs.........

So were the german army during WW2.

Banjo String

smileyj1987 wrote: »

If your house it worth less then the mortgage then they owe you money !

But your house is an 'asset', that 'generates an income' apparently.

Even if your mortgaged up to your neck, with a house worth half of the mortgage.

relax carry on

Just in response to the various posters here who seem to have issues with the way Revenue are implementing the property tax, how would you collect it based on the legislation enacted and limited staff resources available?

smileyj1987

relax carry on wrote: »

Just in response to the various posters here who seem to have issues with the way Revenue are implementing the property tax, how would you collect it based on the legislation enacted and limited staff resources available?

Not charge a property tax at all !