revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

dxhound2005

heartseeker wrote: »

Seamus I think the dailymail would more than likely be after your services for doing such a good pr job on behalf of the revenue.:P Worth your weight in gold I'm sensing a payrise for you or a St.Paddys day junket to New York.Whats your preference?

Here we go with the abuse again for anyone that dares to stand against the mob.

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. All 3 have the potential to massively affect those struggling, especially increased taxes on cigs and alcohol. And none of these suggestions are a form of stable taxation.

I disagree with you on that.
Taxing alcohol and cigs would save a fortune in health care. 6,500 is the average number who die every year from smoking related illnesses in Ireland according to a local health worker I know. If that's a true figure then many taxpayers are dying in that figure.(of course we save on dole payments to the others too).

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here we go with the abuse again for anyone that dares to stand against the mob.

What abuse have you suffered on this thread?

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here we go with the abuse again for anyone that dares to stand against the mob.

There must be two mobs then :pac:

MadYaker

Pointless discussion really. If you're liable there is no way to avoid paying it.

heartseeker

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here we go with the abuse again for anyone that dares to stand against the mob.

Abuse lol :P Nobody can get near enough to the Dail or revenue mob to voice an argument apart from maybe Vincent Browne who am sure they try to keep sweet...

tayto lover

heartseeker wrote: »

Abuse lol :P Nobody can get near enough to the Dail or revenue mob to voice an argument apart from maybe Vincent Browne who am sure they try to keep sweet...

Ah no. Fine Gael ministers inc Kenny give VB a wide berth. He scares the crap out of them.

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah no. Fine Gael ministers inc Kenny give VB a wide berth. He scares the crap out of them.

No wonder then that FG rejected him when he tried to join.

Browne was involved with the Dublin Anti H-Block Movement during the 1981 Irish hunger strike. In 1994, he sought a nomination for the Fine Gael party in that year's European elections or the possible general election of that year (it was thought a general election might follow the collapse of the Albert Reynolds' government). He was rebuffed by the leader of Fine Gael and future Taoiseach, John Bruton. He became a vocal critic of the party

This is about as relevant as Enda's 1994 statement. What is more relevant is that Browne is a product of privilege and is only a spoofer pretending to be interested in the welfare of ordinary people.

bgrizzley

MadYaker wrote: »

Pointless discussion really. If you're liable there is no way to avoid paying it.

my old granny use to say theres more than one way to skin a cat...;)

heartseeker

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah no. Fine Gael ministers inc Kenny give VB a wide berth. He scares the crap out of them.

I wonder how many of the politicians PR people are given the job to monitor boards ...joe Duffy last week complained about getting constant emails and derinbeing bombarded by the Health Ministers PR people for mentioning the reality of the scrapping of the mobility allowance so I reckon the number is substantially higher on a national forum like boards??
Curbing political unrest PR pay average salary??anyone...??

Wibbs

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

People on low incomes or in mortgage difficulties can apply for a deferral.

Ah yes the deferral. So they get into even more debt, because lets face it if they're struggling today, chances are high they'll be struggling the next year and the next. Pretty soon they'll be looking down the barrel of many thousands extra(plus interest) in debt on top of their existing debts. A lump sum they'll be unlikely to gather, unless they god forbid get a bank loan to cover. A lump sum that keeps growing annually.

You could well get a situation where a family are paying off a mortgage (which will cost them at least double what they borrowed anyway), if they have to defer payments on that, then add that to the moneys required at the back end. If they've been reduced to interest only, they're renting over the odds for "their" house. So They could end up paying a fortune over the lifetime of a mortgage only to be left with a home they paid(well over the odds*) for, that's worth X minus the many thousands of euro in referral moneys. Nice. Talk about being spitroasted. And that's before we take the stamp duty they might have paid in the first place. Or other taxes coming down the line. For many people in this nation it will simply be too much for them. I can think of quite the number. I honestly can and I would be concerned for them and their families and our society at large.

TBH I've lately come to the conclusion that I now side with the renters who reckon home ownership is a thinly veiled scam. Thank christ I have no mortgage(paid the last dregs of it years ago). No way in hell would I dream of buying a house today(or in the last 20 years) unless I had the buy price in hard currency. Usury and uncertainty to never really own your home? And on top get further uncertainty and possible debt to the revenue even if you own your own home? Fcuk that for a game of soldiers.






*in the mortgage repayments sense rather than the inflated "bubble" values. Add the latter into the mix and a large heap of WTF?

Wibbs

heartseeker wrote: »

I wonder how many of the politicians PR people are given the job to monitor boards ...joe Duffy last week complained about getting constant emails and derinbeing bombarded by the Health Ministers PR people for mentioning the reality of the scrapping of the mobility allowance so I reckon the number is substantially higher on a national forum like boards??
Curbing political unrest PR pay average salary??anyone...??

Maybe, but ye'd be backing up the wrong tree if you reckoned our Seamus of all people was a government shill.

tayto lover

heartseeker wrote: »

I wonder how many of the politicians PR people are given the job to monitor boards ...joe Duffy last week complained about getting constant emails and derinbeing bombarded by the Health Ministers PR people for mentioning the reality of the scrapping of the mobility allowance so I reckon the number is substantially higher on a national forum like boards??
Curbing political unrest PR pay average salary??anyone...??

You can be sure that some people on here are being paid for their time.
They overdo their defence of the party and it's policies.
I'd say many of them actually agree with us but have to argue to the contrary.

clairefontaine

What I don't understand is why the fraud has not been addressed and fraudulant prices have not been written down.

I also don't understand the protectionism of why this fraud has not been addressed.

Essentially, people have found out their diamonds are cubic zirconias and are still being forced to pay diamond prices.

Chips Lovell

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah yes the deferral. So they get into even more debt, because lets face it if they're struggling today, chances are high they'll be struggling the next year and the next. Pretty soon they'll be looking down the barrel of many thousands extra(plus interest) in debt on top of their existing debts. A lump sum they'll be unlikely to gather, unless they god forbid get a bank loan to cover. A lump sum that keeps growing annually.

You could well get a situation where a family are paying off a mortgage (which will cost them at least double what they borrowed anyway), if they have to defer payments on that, then add that to the moneys required at the back end. If they've been reduced to interest only, they're renting over the odds for "their" house. So They could end up paying a fortune over the lifetime of a mortgage only to be left with a home they paid(well over the odds*) for, that's worth X minus the many thousands of euro in referral moneys. Nice. Talk about being spitroasted. And that's before we take the stamp duty they might have paid in the first place. Or other taxes coming down the line. For many people in this nation it will simply be too much for them. I can think of quite the number. I honestly can and I would be concerned for them and their families and our society at large.

Well, as I pointed out earlier in the thread:

You know as well as I do, that they're going to raise the money somehow. For me, I'd prefer if they did it this way than through the old reliables such as raising income tax again or cutting social welfare rates. Rather than shaft the same people over and over, it drags more people into the tax net that haven't been pulling their weight to date, like those living off property and investments. Sure we all get hit with it too, but at least those guys have to start paying as well (and become way more visible to the Revenue). It's not surprising that its landlords who're they ones challenging it in court.

I like the idea of a property tax in that goes some way to reforming a taxation system that was an absolute recipe for disaster (as we found out). Instead of relying heavily on transactional or wage taxes, which can vary wildly between boom and bust, this at least provides some steady revenue that won't change that much between good times and bad.

And at least it provides some alternatives for those struggling to pay, such as staggering payments or opting to defer it. Yep you get hit with interest, but at least you can put it off, rather than see your take home pay cut by an income tax hike or your dole cut, which you can't defer.

For me, I'm happy that once, just once, they've actually listened to the experts and done something sensible about reforming the tax system rather than the usual populist, boom/bust friendly approach that Irish politicians often go for when chasing votes.

relax carry on

bgrizzley wrote: »

my old granny use to say theres more than one way to skin a cat...;)

Do tell. How do you hope to evade this tax?

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No wonder then that FG rejected him when he tried to join.

Browne was involved with the Dublin Anti H-Block Movement during the 1981 Irish hunger strike. In 1994, he sought a nomination for the Fine Gael party in that year's European elections or the possible general election of that year (it was thought a general election might follow the collapse of the Albert Reynolds' government). He was rebuffed by the leader of Fine Gael and future Taoiseach, John Bruton. He became a vocal critic of the party

This is about as relevant as Enda's 1994 statement. What is more relevant is that Browne is a product of privilege and is only a spoofer pretending to be interested in the welfare of ordinary people.

I disagree.

Enda's 94 statement referred specifically to a tax being placed on the family home.

What was morally wrong, unjust, and unfair is every bit relevant to an Irish home now, (with the economic collapse, some may say its more relevant) as it was when he said it.

I'm assuming you're affiliated in some shape or form with the party?

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Well, as I pointed out earlier in the thread:



For me, I'm happy that once, just once, they've actually listened to the experts and done something sensible about reforming the tax system rather than the usual populist, boom/bust friendly approach that Irish politicians often go for when chasing votes.

Lucky you then.
You can afford it.
Don't forget that listening to experts has got us to where we are.

Banjo String

relax carry on wrote: »

Do tell. How do you hope to evade this tax?

If the govt/revenue steal the money from accounts (and it will be stealing, make no bones about that) it can quite easily (and legally) be denied from them in many other ways.

I for one plan to up my six county shopping trips by one hundred percent. (there's a big chunk of vat/excise duties denied to them)

Cash transactions, ofttimes result in discounts too btw.

Le_Dieux

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

People on low incomes or in mortgage difficulties can apply for a deferral.

Vlad, are you for real? A defferal incurs a FOUR % interest rate per annum. Who in their right mond ( at least those that pay ) would need that albatros around their neck and pass it on to their next-of-kin?

Banjo String

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Vlad, are you for real? A defferal incurs a FOUR % interest rate per annum. Who in their right mond ( at least those that pay ) would need that albatros around their neck and pass it on to their next-of-kin?

If a great mass movement of people opposed to the tax simply ignored, refused, then appealed, and last resort 'deferrred' the payment, it might make the tax (the cash they were banking on) unworkable.

The bondholders do not want to wait for fifty-sixty years on this money. I'm personally hoping to be around in fifty years at least.

Le_Dieux

seamus wrote: »

So, no, is your answer.

Any other suggestions?

I don't disagree that the members of the Dáil need to massively reduce their salaries and reform the houses.

But I don't believe that this gives me any ethical perogative to refuse to pay my taxes.

Your prerogative. Mine is this: LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

These fúcking td's are a law unto themselves, we have one who refuses to pay VAT ( not a whisper on that these days, except the same cnut telling another bent td in Roscommon to own up), we have sf tonergate., we have the very bollox who is telling us to pay the HHC/PT refusing to do the EXACT same thing in Portugal ( right country?). We have another ex'td(?)' who was MOF and didn't have a bank account, and can't remember getting 5'G's sterling in the 90's.

Far as I am concerned, nearly all td's are in this for themselves, so fúck the lot of them. They are creaming the system/taxpayer/YOU AND I, yet want to force us to pay up more and more?

It's a damn fúcking joke.

Apologies for my language, just thinking of that bunch in Kildare street makes my blood boil.

Bullseye1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

People on low incomes or in mortgage difficulties can apply for a deferral.

And accrue substantial interest on top? Madness. I still say income tax was the way to go. It is a fairer system.

Chinasea

MadYaker wrote: »

Pointless discussion really.

Agreed, it is just a dysfunctional mob/thread blaming de bankers, de govern'ment, did we mention de bankers, on everything since the sliced pan, whilst justifying to each other how they can further help sink the country down the tubes while hiding behind each other in mass non compliance.

tayto lover

Chinasea wrote: »

Agreed, it is just a dysfunctional mob/thread blaming de bankers, de govern'ment, did we mention de bankers, on everything since the sliced pan, whilst justifying to each other how they can further help sink the country down the tubes while hiding behind each other in mass non compliance.

Another one has just rode in as back-up. It's like Dodge City here.

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Browne is a product of privilege and is only a spoofer pretending to be interested in the welfare of ordinary people.

He would have fitted right in with the current lot so.

relax carry on

SamHall wrote: »

If the govt/revenue steal the money from accounts (and it will be stealing, make no bones about that) it can quite easily (and legally) be denied from them in many other ways.

I for one plan to up my six county shopping trips by one hundred percent. (there's a big chunk of vat/excise duties denied to them)

Cash transactions, ofttimes result in discounts too btw.

Fair enough. That may work for you and others in the border area as a form of protest against the property tax but not everyone can pop up north at the drop of a hat.
You also have the added issue of taking your cash out of the local economy and its associated problems.

Bullseye1

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How about this for an idea. Set the salaries for politicians at a level that would attract this talent which is so valuable in the private sector. After all politics is not a vocation. These guys would do a far better job of running the country, wouldn't they?

I have yet to see you post anything negative against the current government. Makes me wonder.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

Agreed, it is just a dysfunctional mob/thread blaming de bankers, de govern'ment, did we mention de bankers, on everything since the sliced pan, whilst justifying to each other how they can further help sink the country down the tubes while hiding behind each other in mass non compliance.

The last I heard from you was Sunday when I and others repeatedly asked you what you would advise the 150k families in a arrears to do to pay this tax, when they have barely two Pennies to rub together as it is?

You repeatedly refused to answer while simultaneously accuse myself and others of being uninterested in debate.

handlemaster

Like alot of threads lots of posturing going on. But i suspect like the little doggy that barks and barks when you go over to it, it turns over to have its belly rubbed.

tayto lover

handlemaster wrote: »

Like alot of threads lots of posturing going on. But i suspect like the little doggy that barks and barks when you go over to it, it turns over to have its belly rubbed.

A little doggy called Enda?

Banjo String

relax carry on wrote: »

You also have the added issue of taking your cash out of the local economy and its associated problems.

Where do you propose the cash will come from to pay the lpt?

Its still cash that won't reach the local economy.

Bullseye1

handlemaster wrote: »

Like alot of threads lots of posturing going on. But i suspect like the little doggy that barks and barks when you go over to it, it turns over to have its belly rubbed.

I know right!

Bruthal

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I know right!

The very image I thought of when the post you quoted was posted

tayto lover

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I know right!

That's him. He rolls over for Angela too. You want to see him beg though.

Wibbs

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Well, as I pointed out earlier in the thread:



For me, I'm happy that once, just once, they've actually listened to the experts and done something sensible about reforming the tax system rather than the usual populist, boom/bust friendly approach that Irish politicians often go for when chasing votes.

Sorry V, but you're still avoiding my points. Populism isn't the issue here, it's how it will actually affect people already in debt, already unable to pay that debt who will now accrue another debt on top to the revenue. Something will give in that scenario.

Le_Dieux

MadYaker wrote: »

Pointless discussion really. If you're liable there is no way to avoid paying it.

MY, You have not answered my question, and seems You are avoiding answering it.

How do You know that revenue won't be knocking on doors? Message #546 om page 37.

For me, You have an awful habit of making statements, but can't back them up. If You can, then PLEASE supply answers!

dxhound2005

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Vlad, are you for real? A defferal incurs a FOUR % interest rate per annum. Who in their right mond ( at least those that pay ) would need that albatros around their neck and pass it on to their next-of-kin?

Not paying €100 in early 2012 will leave people owing an extra €100 in July 2013. Who in their right mind would do this?

Bruthal

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

And you can't defer income tax.

The only people who will point out the deferral thing with property tax as some sort of advantage, are people who wont have to defer it.

Le_Dieux

tayto lover wrote: »

You can be sure that some people on here are being paid for their time.
They overdo their defence of the party and it's policies.
I'd say many of them actually agree with us but have to argue to the contrary.

Thankfully, the BIGGEST of them all hasn't contributed ....YET.

I am sure You know who I am referring to Tayto:rolleyes:

Bruthal

Le_Dieux wrote: »

MY, You have not answered my question, and seems You are avoiding answering it.

How do You know that revenue won't be knocking on doors? Message #546 om page 37.

For me, You have an awful habit of making statements, but can't back them up. If You can, then PLEASE supply answers!

Well, they wont be knocking on his/her door anyway.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not paying €100 in early 2012 will leave people owing an extra €100 in July 2013. Who in their right mind would do this?

People who:

A, have a pair of balls, and will stand up against something when is clearly wrong.

Or:

B, aren't worried about the party whip, and going against it.

Then there's those folk that simply do not have the cash to give. Surely its sunk in by now?

the groutch

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not paying €100 in early 2012 will leave people owing an extra €100 in July 2013. Who in their right mind would do this?

people who by making a collective stand coerced the government into setting the property tax at a much lower rate than originally planned, and have saved more than €100 in the process

Le_Dieux

SamHall wrote: »

If a great mass movement of people opposed to the tax simply ignored, refused, then appealed, and last resort 'deferrred' the payment, it might make the tax (the cash they were banking on) unworkable.

The bondholders do not want to wait for fifty-sixty years on this money. I'm personally hoping to be around in fifty years at least.

Enda rocks up in Brussells, and starts chatting to the bould Angela.
'Hey Enda, when you paing up the next instalment on that loan'?
'Soon as Johnny dies ( no disrespect to ANY Johnnies here)'

FFS, You couldn't make this up!

dxhound2005

the groutch wrote: »

people who by making a collective stand coerced the government into setting the property tax at a much lower rate than originally planned, and have saved more than €100 in the process

Why did they not coerce them into scrapping the idea entirely?

Le_Dieux

tayto lover wrote: »

A little doggy called Enda?

PLEASE Tayto, have SOME respect for my mutt:rolleyes:

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Why did they not coerce them into scrapping the idea entirely?

If as many pensioners hadn't have been scaremongered into registering and paying, it might very well have been.

Incidentally, its not over yet, I believe the upcoming election in Meath will be the first evidence of fg losing its support of the public.

the groutch

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Why did they not coerce them into scrapping the idea entirely?

unfortunately the idea wasn't scrapped, but if there had been near total compliance with registering for the HHC, they would have felt they could set the property tax higher without any issues.

bgrizzley

relax carry on wrote: »

Do tell. How do you hope to evade this tax?

Thats not exactly what i meant. Ive outlined earlier how this tax has legally cost them more already than they will ever get back from me(and ive only begun cutting back).
But... i am self employed, i write the cheque at the end of the year, they can bill me all they want they wont get it, and they can audit all they want cause ive nothing to hide. TCC? :rolleyes:, ill get by, think i only ever needed it twice anyway.

So unless they put an order against my pension (if i make it that far), they have fcuk all to get from me.;)

Chips Lovell

Wibbs wrote: »

Sorry V, but you're still avoiding my points. Populism isn't the issue here, it's how it will actually affect people already in debt, already unable to pay that debt who will now accrue another debt on top to the revenue. Something will give in that scenario.

I don't think I am. As I said, aside from the advantages of having a more sensible taxation system, if you're in difficulties, the option of being able to defer this is far more preferable than having your income tax hiked again or your benefits cut.

Consider someone with a house worth €150,000. Their liability this year is €112 and on a full year basis its, €225. That means they've got to come up with an extra €2.15 a week this year and an extra €4.33 a week thereafter to cover the tax.

Now, there's no doubt people are in difficulties and those extra few euro may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some. So they opt to defer the tax till they get back on their feet again. Say five years. You do that and the interest bill comes to €112.

Now that's no an insignificant sum, but if you're struggling with a mortgage, it's a tiny proportion of extra debt and a small price to pay to avoid going under.

Other alternative taxes like raising income tax don't have that kind of get out to them.