revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

MadsL

squod wrote: »

Love this ''only alternative'', ''only show in town'' nonsense. If revenue put their backs into it the could have been inspecting the numerous fairgrounds operating cash only over the weekend, the innumerable cash only retail business and the numerically astonishing horse traders we seem to have.

The nation's problems solved by a Traveller tax is it?

squod wrote: »

The responsible course of action is a boycott of this tax. If that doesn't suit you, fine. There's clearly more people with better moral fibre opposing this tax than you imagine.

The responsible course of action is ousting the Government you dislike, that's democracy - but your problem has always been collective protesting is so despised in Ireland.

Apathy in Ireland has just made it possible for FF to be reelected within living memory, if that happens, frankly I am so done with Ireland, as you will get what you deserve in that scenario.

As for moral fibre, no-one had any to oppose the bailout, bit rich to start talking about it now, and especially odious to talk about property owners having the moral highground in this.

Jumboman

barneystinson wrote: »

- I'm saying that's a silly thing to do, because you're going to end up paying it one way or another with penalties and/or interest.

They said the same thing about the poll tax and look what happened to that.

If enough people stick together the revenue wont be able to inforce this bull****.

barneystinson

SamHall wrote: »

You're estimating what the interest will be purely based on the levels set by the govt, which will be in place up to 2016

Do you know how much it will go up to after that?



Lol, what you're basically saying is that anyone that qualified for the deferral option, (a single person on €20,000, or a couple with a €30,000 salary)
Should basically give the govt a blank cheque, (in a relative/friends name btw)




As already stated. Leaving debt for others to look after isn't a good idea in my eyes.
Is also partly responsible for the mess the countries in at the min, but that's for another debate.

Huh?

This is starting to feel like I've strayed onto the conspiracy theory forum.

If the tax was double what is now, and the interest was 10% rather than 4%, the deferred amount would still only be 30% of the house value after 20 years. And that assumes no increase in real property values over that period.

When LPT is deferred it becomes a charge on the property, just like a mortgage, to be discharged when the property is sold/transferred. So there's no passing on of debt between generations - the inheritors just need to discharge the tax, or not accept the inheritance.

If anyone leaves me a house, with a LPT charge of 10% of the house value, I'll be delighted (probably be a bit sad they died though!).

MadsL

Jumboman wrote: »

They said the same thing about the poll tax and look what happened to that.

If enough people stick together the revenue wont be able to inforce this bull****.

As someone who fought the poll tax...

It was rebranded as the Council Tax and as of 2011, the average annual levy on a property in England was £1,196.

Good luck with that. Death and taxes.

mfceiling

barneystinson wrote: »

Nowhere in Revenue's literature will you find any suggestion of people paying for professional valuations.

They've asked you to put a reasonable valuation on your house, and unless its off the wall you'll be grand.

If its a 2-bed bungalow in almost any rural part of Ireland it's Band 1 and off you go. Not rocket science.

The funny thing is, 5/6/7 years ago every d1ckhead in the country was a property valuation expert who knew the value of their house and everyone else's house to the penny, but now we've all become incapable...

What's reasonable? How can you tell if you haven't an idea of guide prices? I know 2 houses liable in the midlands - nothing in the area built or sold in the last 5 years or more - how much are they worth? Revenue website says band 1 but these houses are closer to 10,000 sq ft - how do you rate them?

Guess a figure for your house - revenue tell you that you have underpaid - you are in trouble then.

I really don't know what to compare my house with - house the same as mine sold for €700,000 4 years ago. The most recent one i can find that even resembles mine sold for €280,000 - but that was on the next road from me which the revenue has down at a band below mine - mine is valued at €400,000 but that's too much - where the fcuk do you start??

MadsL

mfceiling wrote: »

What's reasonable? How can you tell if you haven't an idea of guide prices? I know 2 houses liable in the midlands - nothing in the area built or sold in the last 5 years or more - how much are they worth? Revenue website says band 1 but these houses are closer to 10,000 sq ft - how do you rate them?

Guess a figure for your house - revenue tell you that you have underpaid - you are in trouble then.

I really don't know what to compare my house with - house the same as mine sold for €700,000 4 years ago. The most recent one i can find that even resembles mine sold for €280,000 - but that was on the next road from me which the revenue has down at a band below mine - mine is valued at €400,000 but that's too much - where the fcuk do you start??

Which gives value to the idea of a Site Valuation Tax rather than a Property Valuation Tax, we really need to get away from this notion of the value of houses for tax purposes. We end up with several valuations.

1. A broad strokes 'banded' system from Revenue.
2. A rough this is what the last five sold for.
3. The value the EA wants to get for it
4. The (often delusional) value that a homeowner puts on their house.
5. The actual market value which is an unknown until the sale happens.

A site tax would have a evening out effect and would remove the absurdity that is people paying more tax in order to boost some notion of the house's value (we have already seen that in this thread)

An alternative would have been to have taxed on the last known sale price with an inflation/deflation modifier but since that was a big dirty secret until now we have no other data other than recent sales.

darkhorse

Deleted User wrote: »

FF won't scrap this tax as the only alternative is to tax the higher paid to the hilt and they are NOT going to do that.

Unless the people were to have a say through a referendum, maybe?

barneystinson

mfceiling wrote: »

What's reasonable? How can you tell if you haven't an idea of guide prices? I know 2 houses liable in the midlands - nothing in the area built or sold in the last 5 years or more - how much are they worth? Revenue website says band 1 but these houses are closer to 10,000 sq ft - how do you rate them?

Guess a figure for your house - revenue tell you that you have underpaid - you are in trouble then.

I really don't know what to compare my house with - house the same as mine sold for €700,000 4 years ago. The most recent one i can find that even resembles mine sold for €280,000 - but that was on the next road from me which the revenue has down at a band below mine - mine is valued at €400,000 but that's too much - where the fcuk do you start??

So a house that like yours, near yours, sold for 280k - that's your reasonable value right there. (PM me if you've any more dilemmas that require common sense. )

barneystinson

darkhorse wrote: »

Unless the people were to have a say through a referendum, maybe?

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

If they want to sign up to a group of freemen talking nonsense about legal challenges then that's fine.

I keep reading quotes from you and other posters on here referring to the phrase "Freemen". Just for clarification, when you refer to "Freemen", what is it actually in comparison to, "Slaves", as that is the opposite to Free. Because, ya see, if I am not a Slave, then it stands to reason that I must be Free.

tayto lover

barneystinson wrote: »

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

Yes but didn't the Government tell lie after lie in order to get elected? Didn't Rabbitte even admit that?
Seems to me that they broke the rules and therefore democracy took a back seat. Why should everyone else not behave likewise?

Bullseye1

barneystinson wrote: »

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

I don't recall either party running on the mandate to introduce a property tax. In fact they ran on alot of broken promises.

So if another party runs in the next election to drop a property tax and get elected you won't have any issue?

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

If you defer the property tax for 20 years, and even if the LPT rate was 0.30% (i.e. nearly double its current rate - seeing as how everyone is convinced they intend on increasing it at the earliest opportunity) the accrued amount would amount to around

15%

of the property value. That's assuming the property value doesn't actually increase in the next 20 years.

So don't be pulling out that sh1te about leaving family with a debt they can't afford. There'll be a house there that's worth a multiple of the tax owed, so it won't be as dramatic as you're making out.

It'd fairly build up when you also add on the ineritance tax, and who knows how many more taxes the government may come up with in the space of 20 years. Oh, and I think you may have forgotten to add the 4% annual interest (assuming that they leave it at 4%). Yeah, be still worth a multiple, for the government.

darkhorse

MadsL wrote: »

The nation's problems solved by a Traveller tax is it?

No, but did'nt one or four ministers in the Dail tell us that we were all in this to-gether? So, I take that to mean that if we all shared the burden

---

.

barneystinson

darkhorse wrote: »

I keep reading quotes from you and other posters on here referring to the phrase "Freemen". Just for clarification, when you refer to "Freemen", what is it actually in comparison to, "Slaves", as that is the opposite to Free. Because, ya see, if I am not a Slave, then it stands to reason that I must be Free.

This is what I was talking about anyway - http://freemanireland.ning.com/video/attack-the-tax-class-action-by-the-people-against-the-irish?xg_source=activity

squod

barneystinson wrote: »

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

The property tax may be unconstitutional. Legislation giving it power could be struck down by the courts, if an action was taken.
Article 43 protects private property, and previous constitutional cases against governmental imposition of tariffs on private property have been successful. In addition, the Constitution says in Article 40 that a “dwelling is inviolable”. It is a wonder that the likes of Sinn Féin and the Socialist party have not begun a challenge in the courts. In the past, the Constitution meant everything and rulings were sought if legislation was repugnant to it.

Things have changed. The lack of a constitutional challenge to a tax on private property shows the high price of litigation these days and why justice for the ordinary people, whether it is constitutional, legal, or social, is out of reach.

Maurice Fitzgerald
Shanbally
Co Cork

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/property-tax-may-be-unconstitutional-223048.html


No expert here. This is possibly wrong but it's possibly right too.

MadYaker

You do realise that the government have teams of people whose job it is to make sure that legislation isn't at odds with the constitution before it is introduced? It ain't gonna happen and anyone who thinks it might is wrong.

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

This is starting to feel like I've strayed onto the conspiracy theory forum.

Just on that note, barney, I remember a conversation with some of the staff the day after the last budget. We were chatting about the rise in the rate of DIRT. Antway, I happen to say that it would'nt suprise me if they went even further than that with S/A's. One of the men said to me, no, they would never get away with something like that, don't be talking conspiracy theory.:eek: A bit off thread, but it'd be cool to live in Cyprus, as their calling another bank holiday to-morrow.

squod

MadYaker wrote: »

You do realise that the government have teams of people whose job it is to make sure that legislation isn't at odds with the constitution before it is introduced? It ain't gonna happen and anyone who thinks it might is wrong.

Oh yeah that's right. There's like so never been a challenge to legislation brought before the courts on the grounds of it's constitutionality.

Bullseye1

MadYaker wrote: »

You do realise that the government have teams of people whose job it is to make sure that legislation isn't at odds with the constitution before it is introduced? It ain't gonna happen and anyone who thinks it might is wrong.

It's happened many times. Not saying any challenge on this would be successful but to suggest the Irish legislators are beyond making mistakes is laughable.

Banjo String

barneystinson wrote: »

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

Democracy is dead in Ireland Barney.

Don't give me this bull about the govt being elected and mandates baloney.

FG did not have property tax in their pre-election manifest, labour did but it was a site valued one. Between the two parties they came up with this load of muck though, that coincidentally let's developers with land-banks, and farmers etc with millions of euro worth fertile land away with being faced with the same bill as a simple married couple in a semi-D.

Then we have the childeren's referendum, ruled as illegal in a court of law, but the cronies in D.E didn't bat an eyelid, and carried on regardless.

We also had the promissory notes saga, a Mr David Hall challenged the govt on the legality issues of the 'scam' pulled by FG/LAB, and he basically was told he had no authority to challenge the govt, not that he was wrong, may I add.

This govt introduced one of the most severe budgets in Dec 2012, with billions of euro worth of cuts, yet a few weeks beforehand, in the Dails own budget, awarded themselves a pay rise.

Yet the govt, cap in hand ask for money from the middle class home owners, to continue to fund the lies, waste and greed around us, seemingly answerable to no-one?

Gimme a break lads, seriously. :rolleyes:

Democracy? You're kidding me.

You fund the lifestyle and greed if you wish though. Carry on now.

MadYaker

squod wrote: »

Oh yeah that's right. There's like so never been a challenge to legislation brought before the courts on the grounds of it's constitutionality.

I never said that. Sometimes old legislation is deemed unconstitutional and changed, as highlighted by that statutory rape case a while ago. But I think its extremely unlikely that that will happen with this legislation since the government know its going to be subjected to intense scrutiny by those who oppose it. Does that make sense to you?

Banjo String

MadYaker wrote: »

You do realise that the government have teams of people whose job it is to make sure that legislation isn't at odds with the constitution before it is introduced? It ain't gonna happen and anyone who thinks it might is wrong.

Let's hope they're nothing like the team of accountants that 'lost' €3.6 billion down the back of the settee ffs.

Give me a break.

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

(PM me if you've any more dilemmas that require common sense. )

barneystinson wrote: »

The people get a say in the general election, and this Govt therefore has a mandate to introduce this tax. That's how democracy works, we'd only need a referendum if introducing the tax was deemed unconstitutional.

No, they certainly do not have a mandate to tax our family home.

What democracy are you talking about, by the way? Were the coalition backbench TDs given a choice to vote against it?

The top one there, though, nearly fcuking split my sides laughing.

barneystinson

SamHall wrote: »

Gimme a break lads, seriously. :rolleyes:

SamHall wrote: »

Give me a break.

OK, go on take a break, you've definitely earned it. Take tomorrow off and then come back with renewed vigour on Wednesday, maybe try and get some new material - democracy is dead - when was it alive here out of curiosity? When the church called the shots? Or when that paragon of virtue Haughey was at the helm? The world isn't perfect Sam, and it's no less perfect now than at any other time...

mfceiling

barneystinson wrote: »

So a house that like yours, near yours, sold for 280k - that's your reasonable value right there. (PM me if you've any more dilemmas that require common sense. )

The house is like mine in as such as it has the same amount of bedrooms, slightly smaller front garden but faces the road - mine is off the road. How can it be the same as mine? Mine has a better finish inside and our road would be considered a "nicer road" than theirs. Their back garden was south facing - mine isn't - according to some that is worth more.

Plenty of variables plus the revenue has them in a band below mine and has me at an unreasonable €400,000. Why bother setting up a hard to distinguish website that is inaccurate for the majority of people and therefore confuse people even further?

I'll pay this tax but i'd like it to be slightly clearer as to where the money is going plus what is an accurate valuation for your house. As i said before i'm not paying an external valuer to tell me how much money i've to give the revenue. If they really want an accurate valuation then they can send out someone at their expense to do it for me.

dxhound2005

squod wrote: »

Futile? Irresponsible? What the actual fuhk are you on about? Boycotts work. That s the actual reality. Advocating the continuation of this madness is exactly that. Madness.


-Property taxes have never worked in this country. Fact.
-This one will go the same road. Fact


The responsible course of action is a boycott of this tax. If that doesn't suit you, fine. There's clearly more people with better moral fibre opposing this tax than you imagine.

Property taxes have never worked in this country. Fact. ?? Only partly and you cannot state as fact something which is merely a future prediction.

They worked up until 1977. Fact. The version in place from 1983 to 1997 did not work. Indeed a fact but the short history lesson here throws some light on the reason.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/home-truths/2011/12/08/property-tax-take-two-the-lessons-to-be-learned/

Although the legislation survived a constitutional challenge (a lesson there for anyone claiming the new act is unconstitutional) the tax was aimed at a very narrow base of the better off. Whatever the reasons for it's failure, having lived through those times, I detect a much different atmosphere now and I would challenge your prediction (what you call a fact) strongly.

Banjo String

barneystinson wrote: »

OK, go on take a break, you've definitely earned it. Take tomorrow off and then come back with renewed vigour on Wednesday, maybe try and get some new material - democracy is dead - when was it alive here out of curiosity? When the church called the shots? Or when that paragon of virtue Haughey was at the helm? The world isn't perfect Sam, and it's no less perfect now than at any other time...

No break for me tomorrow sadly, needs must and all that. I'll be in my usual job tomorrow, earning for the family and paying my taxes.

Resorting to sarcastic replies and personal insults only diminishes the credibility of your posts.

Like I've said though, you continue to pay up, its obviously not a bother to you, but who will you complain to, and when will you decide that you've paid too much already/have no more left to give?

Can I ask if you've paid stamp duty Barney?
Are you in negative equity?
Do you have a family?
Have you taken pay cuts/been subjected to redundancy or job loss?

Genuine question btw.

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

This is what I was talking about anyway - http://freemanireland.ning.com/video/attack-the-tax-class-action-by-the-people-against-the-irish?xg_source=activity[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link, barney. I'm 100% in.

darkhorse

barneystinson wrote: »

democracy is dead - when was it alive here?

Now ya bleedin start to talk sense. Why did'nt ya speak like this at the start, and we could have finished early.

MadsL

darkhorse wrote: »

barneystinson wrote: »

This is what I was talking about anyway - http://freemanireland.ning.com/video/attack-the-tax-class-action-by-the-people-against-the-irish?xg_source=activity[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link, barney. I'm 100% in.

No such thing as a class action in Ireland. Lay litigants? This will end well.

irish bloke

username123 wrote: »

Well good luck to them with me. I have no income, no social welfare, Im not self employed and I have no savings in a financial institution.

But you have a computer/smart phone and Internet access!!

solas111

MadYaker wrote: »

You do realise that the government have teams of people whose job it is to make sure that legislation isn't at odds with the constitution before it is introduced? It ain't gonna happen and anyone who thinks it might is wrong.

No, the job of those teams of fat-cats is to frame the legislation in such a way that they will get away with it until someone mounts a legal challenge. The courts will interpret the constitution and decide whether a piece of legislation is legal or not.

In the normal course of events, Sinn Fein would have been jumping up and down at the chance to become the people's champions once again, except that there is a wee problem here - they have introduced a similar tax themselves north of the border so they can only pretend to be against it, just like Fianna Fail who came up with the idea in the first place but who can't decide now how best to put a spin on it before the next election.

dxhound2005

solas111 wrote: »

No, the job of those teams of fat-cats is to frame the legislation in such a way that they will get away with it until someone mounts a legal challenge. The courts will interpret the constitution and decide whether a piece of legislation is legal or not.

In the normal course of events, Sinn Fein would have been jumping up and down at the chance to become the people's champions once again, except that there is a wee problem here - they have introduced a similar tax themselves north of the border so they can only pretend to be against it, just like Fianna Fail who came up with the idea in the first place but who can't decide now how best to put a spin on it before the next election.

If the President has any doubt about the constitutionality of a piece of new legislation he can refer it to the Supreme Court.

http://www.lawlibrary.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=15

Article 26 of the Constitution says that the President may refer Bills to the Supreme Court to get a ruling on whether or not they are constitutional. If the Supreme Court rules that the Bill is constitutional, that Bill cannot be challenged again on its constitutionality.


The President did not consider there was any reason to refer the LPT legislation so all I can say to the amateur lawyers from the Freeman movement or anywhere else is the best of luck.

You may be unaware that Sinn Fein are going to introduce a Bill to repeal the LPT legislation. They didn't introduce the tax in the North but bizarrely they deny that it exists.

squod

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They worked up until 1977. Fact.

I can say with great certainty that they did not. No idea where you were in '77.

squod

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If the President has any doubt about the constitutionality of a piece of new legislation he can refer it to the Supreme Court.

That's not gonna happen. Judging by your posts on this thread I doubt if any points can be made that you'll listen to. This tax will be pissed up against the wall. That's the reality. But I suppose you'll deny that too?

MadsL

irish bloke wrote: »

But you have a computer/smart phone and Internet access!!

And a husband with income I assume living there.

barneystinson

squod wrote: »

That's not gonna happen. Judging by your posts on this thread I doubt if any points can be made that you'll listen to. This tax will be pissed up against the wall. That's the reality. But I suppose you'll deny that too?

You can make the same point about any/all taxes - do you refuse to pay the rest of your taxes too?

bgrizzley

barneystinson wrote: »

You can make the same point about any/all taxes - do you refuse to pay the rest of your taxes too?

is there any straw that would break your back Barney? any tax too far? or could they do just about anything to you and you would mildly take it.

Chinasea

SamHall wrote: »

N

Can I ask if you've paid stamp duty?
Are you in negative equity?
Do you have a family?
Have you taken pay cuts/been subjected to redundancy or job loss?

Genuine question btw.

Genuine Mé Féin questions BTW? What if the answer was no to these? What if it was yes? What if it was maybe? What if it was some of the above?

What if you looked up the definition of tax?

Bullseye1

Chinasea wrote: »

Genuine Mé Féin questions BTW? What if the answer was no to these? What if it was yes? What if it was maybe? What if it was some of the above?

What if you looked up the definition of tax?

Your a rare chap. Someone who loves taxes no matter what they are for and no matter how they are wasted. Also interesting that your continuously bringing up me fein as though you don't want individualism but rather you seek lemmings.

Thankfully you are rare.

Leftist

pay your taxes and stop whinging. Sick and tired of everyone moaning about contributing to a society they constantly think owes them something.

Bullseye1

People are paying their taxes and are perfectly entitled to question how they are being spent. If you want foolishly had over your money with no questions Alex that is your business. God knows why your one here if your tired of reading other people's posts.

Leftist

Bullseye1 wrote: »

People are paying their taxes and are perfectly entitled to question how they are being spent. If you want foolishly had over your money with no questions Alex that is your business. God knows why your one here if your tired of reading other people's posts.

I'm tired of listening to it everywhere, all over the media and internet.

People pretending they live in some nightmare state, they can barely afford to go on holidays or dine in restaurants for christ sakes, as if it was 1920s germany.

the country is in debt. Everyone contributed to it and everyone blames someone else and expects some special treatement. It's not happening. Time to take responsibility.

Sam Kade

Leftist wrote: »

pay your taxes and stop whinging. Sick and tired of everyone moaning about contributing to a society they constantly think owes them something.

Moaning about people that moan, you are contradicting yourself.

Leftist

Sam Kade wrote: »

Moaning about people that moan, you are contradicting yourself.

tbf that is a good point, I hate that myself usually but it's becoming a bit of a stereotypical parody.

Thse people are going to vote in FF in the next election, or come close to it.

They are voting in the people responsible, the ones who ran the train off the tracks and were completely incompetent, but they will vote them in because FF will promise them an easier ride, again.

How can you expect anything better from people like that I suppose. But very disappointing, and gone on too long.

Banjo String

Leftist wrote: »

tbf that is a good point, I hate that myself usually but it's becoming a bit of a stereotypical parody.

Thse people are going to vote in FF in the next election, or come close to it.

They are voting in the people responsible, the ones who ran the train off the tracks and were completely incompetent, but they will vote them in because FF will promise them an easier ride, again.

How can you expect anything better from people like that I suppose. But very disappointing, and gone on too long.

And tbf to you.

They voted in the current coalition on the strength of the promises's made pre-election.

I don't wish to see FF returning to power either, but the fact remains when the current lot have broken almost every one if their pre-election promises, you can hardly blame the public on rejecting them either?

TLDR version:

We replaced FF with FF-lite. They've continued on down the same path with the same cronyism as the last lot.

Next govt will be FF/SF, may God help us all.

Bullseye1

It is depressing that FF are doing so well in the polls, the real test however will be the elections. However FG and Labour are doing a fine job in finishing off the domestic economy. From a political and governance point of view this country is a mess. It's all very well saying you get the government you deserve but when all the candidates are essentially useless what hope do we have. You can only vote for what's available on the ballot paper. Voting for all independents won't work either.

bgrizzley

SamHall wrote: »

And tbf to you.

They voted in the current coalition on the strength of the promises's made pre-election.

I don't wish to see FF returning to power either, but the fact remains when the current lot have broken almost every one if their pre-election promises, you can hardly blame the public on rejecting them either?

TLDR version:

We replaced FF with FF-lite. They've continued on down the same path with the same cronyism as the last lot.

Next govt will be FF/SF, may God help us all.

you are wasting your time Sam, some of these people actually think there is a difference between ff/fg.

MadsL

So Sam, as you are cheerleading Ben Gilroy, please do explain...

http://www.attackthetax.com/about.html

the Household Charge and the Property Tax is Illegal, Unlawful and Unconstutional,
and does NOT have to be paid, unless you consciously consent/agree to paying it.

"I am a freeman" being the theme I expect. What was said/explained at the meetings?