revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

Bullseye1

MadsL wrote: »

If they overbought, borrowed again and then defaulted probably.
If they got greedy and borrowed for a overseas apt in Bulgaria, Budapest and the like, probably.
If they flipped houses, probably.
If they got a buy-to-let despite never having been the rental market before, probably.

You probably know at least one of them.

It is still unclear how any of these buyers are responsible for your woes. How exactly were you effected? I know you emigrated are because you lost your job but how have these buyer contributed to you losing your job? Surely that is down to your employer or yourself.

tayto lover

ezra_pound wrote: »

For more efficient use of property. I grew up in an area with five Victorian 2000+sqft houses many of them inhabited by one little old lady. Lpt incentivises more efficient use so little old lady down downsizes and family move in.

It also curbs property price inflation and does not negatively impact on employment. Read any report on it. Theres lots.

Typical FG bulls***. Those old ladies are entitled to own their properties. Age had nothing to do with it either. Lads like you would welcome a cull of the elderly.

Bruthal

tayto lover wrote: »

Economically sensible my ar**. It is thievery.

It would be interesting if a Cyprus style savings tax was to be deducted, would the flawlessly law abiding property tax promoters be as quick to embrace that I wonder?

tayto lover

MadsL wrote: »

Here we go again.

Property is theft, I think someone famous said. :pac:

Does that make you a thief so :rolleyes::pac:

MadsL

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It is still unclear how any of these buyers are responsible for your woes. How exactly were you effected? I know you emigrated are because you lost your job but how have these buyer contributed to you losing your job? Surely that is down to your employer or yourself.

You already admitted it yourself. Property speculation was at least partly to blame.

Bruthal

MadsL wrote: »

Tell me how I isolate them them from the above in terms of taxation? Any ideas? Collateral damage.

Im asking you about blame. You constantly either get confused, or deliberately move goal posts. Clearly, blame is the central core issue for you.

You say you were a renter, so no blame for you according to yourself. So I ask again, is a person who bought a family home, to blame?

Bullseye1

What line of work were you involved in that the property collapse led to you losing your job? Construction?

ezra_pound

tayto lover wrote: »

Typical FG bulls***. Those old ladies are entitled to own their properties. Age had nothing to do with it either. Lads like you would welcome a cull of the elderly.

Ridiculous comment.

A. This has nothing to do with political party

B. Of course old ladies entitled to own property

C. I'm just staying that it is in societys interest to efficiently distribute property resources.

MadsL

tayto lover wrote: »

Does that make you a thief so :rolleyes::pac:

It was a joke. You on the other hand, worrying, are not joking with all this "tax is theft" stuff.

ezra_pound

Property tax has nothing to do with blame.

100 lines everybody

Property tax has nothing to do with blame...

No seriously. I dont understand the whole blame thing. Its ridiculous.

MadsL

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What line of work were you involved in that the property collapse led to you losing your job? Construction?

Are you having a laugh? Do you think that pretty much all sectors (with perhaps the exception of medical devices and specialised IT) have been affected.

And no I was not working in the construction or building trade sector.

Bullseye1

ezra_pound wrote: »

Ridiculous comment.

A. This has nothing to do with political party

B. Of course old ladies entitled to own property

C. I'm just staying that it is in societys interest to efficiently distribute property resources.

How are you going to get said old lady to give up her house to move into a smaller one?

tayto lover

MadsL wrote: »

It was a joke. You on the other hand, worrying, are not joking with all this "tax is theft" stuff.

I firmly believe it to be akin to theft.
Didn't our shower even back the proposed theft from people's bank accounts in Cyprus? Brave shower that they are.

Bullseye1

MadsL wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? Do you think that pretty much all sectors (with perhaps the exception of medical devices and specialised IT) have been affected.

And no I was not working in the construction or building trade sector.

I'm not having a laugh. I'm having a hard time understanding how me buyin a house led to you losing your job. You still have not explained how and why you lost your job and how the property bubble was responsible for your business/jobs demise. All I've read is "lost my job because of some greedy speculators". It makes zero sense.

tayto lover

ezra_pound wrote: »

Ridiculous comment.

A. This has nothing to do with political party

B. Of course old ladies entitled to own property

C. I'm just staying that it is in societys interest to efficiently distribute property resources.

C -- They should have absolutely no interest in people's private homes and distributing their resources. These homes were privately funded and stamp duty paid.

Bruthal

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm not having a laugh. I'm having a hard time understanding how me buyin a house led to you losing your job. You still have not explained how and why you lost your job and how the property bubble was responsible for your business/jobs demise. All I've read is "lost my job because of some greedy speculators". It makes zero sense.

I have asked and asked. Seems pointless.

But I will try again. Madsl, is a person who bought a home, to blame for this?

Bullseye1

Maybe he is to blame for someone losing their job in the US or displacing some unfortunate Native American. And as silly as that sounds its the excuse he is using here.

MadsL

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm not having a laugh. I'm having a hard time understanding how me buyin a house led to you losing your job. You still have not explained how and why you lost your job and how the property bubble was responsible for your business/jobs demise. All I've read is "lost my job because of some greedy speculators". It makes zero sense.

Economy collapses, people end up out of work.
That bit is simple enough.

Now, why did the economy collapse, all the reasons we have discussed including (as you admitted) the behaviour of some homeowners. Now, you tell me how you propose to separate out the "blameless" homeowners if the Govt as do I feel that a property tax should now be enforced?

All ears.

ezra_pound

Bullseye1 wrote: »

How are you going to get said old lady to give up her house to move into a smaller one?

By incentivising her with lpt.

Lady on Joe Duffy complaining other day that derelict site she owns will be chargeable. In this case she is being incentivised to sell it or put it to productive use. Her response, ring the whineline.

Bruthal

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Maybe he is to blame for someone losing their job in the US or displacing some unfortunate Native American. And as silly as that sounds its the excuse he is using here.

Yes, a narrow field of view in the postings for sure.

dxhound2005

ezra_pound wrote: »

For more efficient use of property. I grew up in an area with five Victorian 2000+sqft houses many of them inhabited by one little old lady. Lpt incentivises more efficient use so little old lady down downsizes and family move in.

It also curbs property price inflation and does not negatively impact on employment. Read any report on it. Theres lots.

I don't think it will have this effect and in the next 10 years or so I expect that there will be another bout of madness in property. Would someone buying a typical 3 bed semi and borrowing say €100K be really that concerned about the €675 total that they will have to pay in LPT 2014 to 2016 inclusive.

It doesn't seem to be an issue in the market in other countries and here is an example of a place with much much higher property tax than here where it certainly had no curbing effect. (Newry 2006)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/23/houseprices.northernireland

The average cost of housing in the County Down city has increased by 54% - £128,000 to £198,000 - over the past year

ezra_pound

tayto lover wrote: »

C -- They should have absolutely no interest in people's private homes and distributing their resources. These homes were privately funded and stamp duty paid.

I thought I was allegedly the fg right winger. Jesus Maggie Thatcher. There really is no society for some just individuals and their families.

Its only a marginal incentive to encourage the right decision. Like going to the cinema after doing well in exams.

Banjo String

ezra_pound wrote: »

That would be 6.6 years of lpt assuming that your property has depreciated by 50%. 50 years of Lpt my h#le!

Find a better reason to break the law.

How have you came to the above conclusion?

tayto lover

ezra_pound wrote: »

By incentivising her with lpt.

Lady on Joe Duffy complaining other day that derelict site she owns will be chargeable. In this case she is being incentivised to sell it or put it to productive use. Her response, ring the whineline.

We are not talking derelict sites here at all. We are discussing family homes.
Why do you think that old lady you mentioned should be made give up the home she probably raised her children in and waked her late husband in?

Bullseye1

MadsL wrote: »

Economy collapses, people end up out of work.
That bit is simple enough.

Now, why did the economy collapse, all the reasons we have discussed including (as you admitted) the behaviour of some homeowners. Now, you tell me how you propose to separate out the "blameless" homeowners if the Govt as do I feel that a property tax should now be enforced?

All ears.

I never said flippers were the cause of you losing your job and this is the (I'veost count) number of times you have failed miserably in outlining how you losing your job was caused by me as someone who bought a house. Maybe if you told us what should worked at here in Ireland we might be able give you a reason why you lost your job. For someone who had no problem trumpeting how he took on the establishment with your "proud"posts you sure are reluctant to give details of your previous employment here in Ireland.

I dot believe for a second you lost your job because of me and anyone who bought a family home. It's like your trying to make the people of Ireland feel guilty for your woes. If you give me your address I'll send you some cheese to go with then whine.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't think it will have this effect and in the next 10 years or so I expect that there will be another bout of madness in property. Would someone buying a typical 3 bed semi and borrowing say €100K be really that concerned about the €675 total that they will have to pay in LPT 2014 to 2016 inclusive.

It doesn't seem to be an issue in the market in other countries and here is an example of a place with much much higher property tax than here where it certainly had no curbing effect. (Newry 2006)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/23/houseprices.northernireland

The average cost of housing in the County Down city has increased by 54% - £128,000 to £198,000 - over the past year

That article is seven years old.

Would you say they rose by 54% last year, 2012?

Bruthal

MadsL wrote: »

Economy collapses, people end up out of work.
That bit is simple enough.

Now, why did the economy collapse, all the reasons we have discussed including (as you admitted) the behaviour of some homeowners. Now, you tell me how you propose to separate out the "blameless" homeowners if the Govt as do I feel that a property tax should now be enforced?

So, you proclaim yourself as blameless. But its ok to punish blameless home owners, as some home owners are not blameless, is that it?

This is by far the most ridiculous reason for promotion of the property tax so far on boards imo.

tayto lover

MadsL wrote: »

Economy collapses, people end up out of work.
That bit is simple enough.

Now, why did the economy collapse, all the reasons we have discussed including (as you admitted) the behaviour of some homeowners. Now, you tell me how you propose to separate out the "blameless" homeowners if the Govt as do I feel that a property tax should now be enforced?

All ears.

Here's another thread I found about blameless people Mads.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056850348

It's just as mad as some of the stuff posted on this one.

ezra_pound

SamHall wrote: »

How have you came to the above conclusion?

Property price 2007 100e
Sd paid 2007 @6% 6e


Property price 2013 (half 2007 price) 50e
Lpt. @ 1.8% 0.9e


Divide sd paid 2007 by one years lpt

6/0.9 = 6.6

MadsL

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Maybe he is to blame for someone losing their job in the US or displacing some unfortunate Native American. And as silly as that sounds its the excuse he is using here.

Ah, now you want to blame immigrants? Seriously? Let me go make some popcorn.

Bullseye1

How are you going to convince her to move out? By increasing her LPT? And how exactly would that incentivise a young family to move into a heavily taxed property?

ezra_pound wrote: »

By incentivising her with lpt.

Lady on Joe Duffy complaining other day that derelict site she owns will be chargeable. In this case she is being incentivised to sell it or put it to productive use. Her response, ring the whineline.

darkhorse

MadsL wrote: »

So Sam, as you are cheerleading Ben Gilroy, please do explain...

http://www.attackthetax.com/about.html

I have to ask, MadsL, what is the connection between Ben Gilroy and Attack the Tax.

MadsL

tayto lover wrote: »

Here's another thread I found about blameless people Mads.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056850348

It's just as mad as some of the stuff posted on this one.

Good for you. Have a pat on the head for finding a thread.

Now about this taxes are theft nonsense. What taxes do you think should be increased? None?

tayto lover

MadsL wrote: »

Good for you. Have a pat on the head for finding a thread.

Now about this taxes are theft nonsense. What taxes do you think should be increased? None?

I have already said that I would pay more Income Tax as opposed to a Property Tax. It just doesn't sit right with me.

Bullseye1

MadsL wrote: »

Ah, now you want to blame immigrants? Seriously? Let me go make some popcorn.

Your obviously trolling now unless your a complete idiot you will see that I said it was a silly notion to blame someone who bought a property for someone else losing their job or for the displacement of someone else. Maybe I should use smilies so that you know I'm being sarcastic LOL.

M I've come to the conclusion that you were in fact FF TD who failed to get re-elected.

Originally Posted by Bullseye1
Maybe he is to blame for someone losing their job in the US or displacing some unfortunate Native American. And as silly as that sounds its the excuse he is using here.

What part of the bolded text did you not get LOL

ezra_pound

Bullseye1 wrote: »

How are you going to convince her to move out? By incr easing her LPT? And how exactly would that incentivise a young family to move into a heavily taxed property?

Are you simple? The family want a large family home. They don't need to be forced into buying it. The point its that when something is taxed it is more likely that someone who actually needs it wilk buy it. So yes the family will have to pay same high rate of lpt as granny but its actually worth it for them to have a suitable house.

Its not worth her paying high rate for property she only uses A quarter of and has to heat and maintain when she can move to more suitable property with lower lpt.

MadsL

darkhorse wrote: »

I have to ask, MadsL, what is the connection between Ben Gilroy and Attack the Tax.

Sorry meant to post this URL https://peopleforeconomicjustice.com/ which is still down (internet savvy Ben let his domain lapse)

Cached here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9uHKCyUNJuAJ:https://peopleforeconomicjustice.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Similar freeman voodoo.

Bruthal

MadsL wrote: »

Ah, now you want to blame immigrants? Seriously? Let me go make some popcorn.

Well you want to blame home owners, yet you cant answer the question asking if a person who bought a home is to blame.

That`s because the simple fact is, they are no more or less to blame than you. But you come out with the shocking rubbish about how can the government tell the difference between a person who bought a home, and a speculator.

And all the while, dictating from another continent, as a house buyer yourself.

Bullseye1

ezra_pound wrote: »

Are you simple?The family want a large family home. They don't need to be forced into buying it. The point its that when something is taxed it is more likely that someone who actually needs it wilk buy it. So yes the family will have to pay same high rate of lpt as granny but its actually worth it for them to have a suitable house.

Its not worth her paying high rate for property she only uses A quarter of and has to heat and maintain when she can move to more suitable property with lower lpt.

Ironic and uncalled for considering the content of your post. I understand the logistics of the elderly woman moving into a much more manageable dwelling. The fact that its smaller to maintain should be reason enough. But I'm not in favour of taxing her out of her home just so someone with a family can move into it. It should be her decision, not the governments.

I thought jobs were still a plenty in 2006 ????

ezra_pound

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Ironic and uncalled for considering the content of your post. I understand the logistics of the elderly woman moving into a much more manageable dwelling. The fact that its smaller to maintain should be reason enough. But I'm not in favour of taxing her out of her home just so someone with a family can move into it. It should be her decision, not the governments.

It is her decision. It just incentivises her to make it. There is currently not enough family accommodation in Dublin. What's your solution to providing such accommodation to families?

Bruthal

ezra_pound wrote: »

Are you simple?

You seem to think life is anyway, claiming a tax can be used to influence a person to give up the home they likely worked a good portion of their life to acquire.

Its not worth her paying high rate for property she only uses A quarter of and has to heat and maintain when she can move to more suitable property with lower lpt.

Bruthal

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Ironic and uncalled for considering the content of your post.

Yes, it is ironic alright.

MadsL

Bruthal wrote: »

So, you proclaim yourself as blameless. But its ok to punish blameless home owners, as some home owners are not blameless, is that it?

This is by far the most ridiculous reason for promotion of the property tax so far on boards imo.

But some homeowners were to blame as we have already discussed.

So these are your options
1. Raise income tax alone (bad for economy, bad for low wages)
2. Tax only homeowners (but..but...)
3. Tax a subset of homeowners (the ones to blame, who are they?)
4. Tax other things.

So, what are your choices. If 4, what do you tax?

tayto lover wrote: »

I have already said that I would pay more Income Tax as opposed to a Property Tax. It just doesn't sit right with me.

So sell your house and don't have that liability. All the taxes mentioned above are voluntary except income tax.

ezra_pound

Bruthal wrote: »

You seem to think life is anyway, claiming a tax can be used to influence a person to give up the home they likely worked a good portion of their life to acquire.

... But now doesn't suit their needs and is badly needed by family in one bed apartment.

Bullseye1

ezra_pound wrote: »

It is her decision. It just incentivises her to make it. There is currently not enough family accommodation in Dublin. What's your solution to providing such accommodation to families?

That is not an incentive that bullying someone out of their home. The reason there isn't enough family accommodation is not down to poor auld granny living in her four bedroom mid Terrance its down to poor planning. And the LPT is going to finance the very people who are responsible for that poor planning.

MadsL

Bruthal wrote: »

Well you want to blame home owners, yet you cant answer the question asking if a person who bought a home is to blame.

I already did, a whole list of them, you didn't disagree. They are a subset of homeowners.

That`s because the simple fact is, they are no more or less to blame than you.

Someone who bought a house, an apartment to rent out, and two overseas properties on the back of their overvalued semi-d in Rathgar is a blameless as myself. I see.

But you come out with the shocking rubbish about how can the government tell the difference between a person who bought a home, and a speculator.

How would you differentiate? There is already a NPPR tax.

And all the while, dictating from another continent, as a house buyer yourself.

House buyer in an entirely different economy, with a different set of economic challenges.

I reallise that people emigrating and yet retaining an opinion irks you, but as yet they do not relieve you of the right to an opinion at the airport.

Now, if not a property tax then what?

ezra_pound

Bullseye1 wrote: »

That is not an incentive that bullying someone out of their home. The reason there isn't enough family accommodation is not down to poor auld granny living in her four bedroom mid Terrance its down to poor planning. And the LPT is going to finance the very people who are responsible for that poor planning.

I'm more thinking of houses in the 700k plus region. Large, expensive to heat. To big for one person, not a four bed mid tertrace.

By the way, how is your 50 year stamp duty property tax sum working out?

Bullseye1

ezra_pound wrote: »

I'm more thinking of houses in the 700k plus region. Large, expensive to heat. To big for one person, not a four bed mid tertrace.

By the way, how is your 50 year stamp duty property tax sum working out?

If a family is interested in a property they know to be occupied by an elderly woman why not employ an agent to approach the woman with an offer to buy. The last thing we need is more government interference.

You seem to have me confused with someone else. No idea what your on about with 50 year stamp duty.

darkhorse

MadsL wrote: »

By the way, seeing as you think people should be treated the same, why don't we move mortgage interest relief down to the same level as rent relief.

Or maybe having the TRS on the mortgage paid at the same level as RA right across the board.