revenue issues threat to every homeowner in the country.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

Typical Mé Féin attitude. No wonder we are fu*ked. Next you'd have the hand across the chest proclaiming your love for your country. (not just you though). The majority of the whinge festival goer's on here.

Here, read this if you want to read about 'Mé Féin' attitudes. :rolleyes:

The civil service elite in Ireland is more interested in protecting their "personal privileges and protected pensions" than they are in the common good, leading mandarin Maurice Hayes has claimed .

He said that as a result the Irish civil service has

experienced a similar fall in public esteem to that experienced by other pillars of the State such as the church, banks and political parties.

"What has happened to the service I was proud to work in for most of my career . . . North and South, that it should now be reviled as unfit for purpose and exposed to insult and obloquy?" asked the former senator and Northern Ireland Ombudsman described as "the mandarins' mandarin".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/civil-service-putting-own-privileges-before-state-29120374.html

Chinasea wrote: »

Where oh where oh where is the money supposed to come from to keep the country afloat.

The same place they expect us already hard hit homeowners to get it from?

Maybe they'll refund me my stamp duty paid in 07?
There's fifty years worth of property tax right there if they do.

Do not attempt to judge me, or my personal circumstances again Chinasea. You know nothing about me, nor how much I currently pay revenue.

Chinasea

SamHall wrote: »

Here, read this if you want to read about 'Mé Féin' attitudes. :rolleyes:



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/civil-service-putting-own-privileges-before-state-29120374.html






The same place they expect us already hard hit homeowners to get it from?

Maybe they'll refund me my stamp duty paid in 07?
There's fifty years worth of property tax right there if they do.

Do not attempt to judge me, or my personal circumstances again Chinasea. You know nothing about me, nor how much I currently pay revenue.

Still no answers or solutions then? Where is the money to come from. What the f? has this payment got to do with civil servants separate issue that you link? If you'd jump off the sheep wagon you might realize what the tax is for. Try and slink out of paying tax to your country with the hand across the chest in the name of St. Patrick and all things green, but the mé féin thing is a big problem.

Wibbs

Chinasea wrote: »

Where oh where oh where is the money supposed to come from to keep the country afloat.

Good question. The problem is a scary number of people in this country don't have any extra money. And before the shíte talk about Sky + and smoking fags and nights on the piss they can afford... People I know in this sorry position are non smokers with kids, who haven't had nights out or holidays in years. One guy I know hasn't had a few beers in a pub in 5 years, nor a holiday in the same time.

NOT ONE SINGLE SOLUTION OR ANSWER TO THIS ON THE THREAD?

We have to get back to the crux of the matter. Well three. Our national banking debt, our personal debt and our government spending. We need serious bloody negotiation on all three.

darkhorse

Chinasea wrote: »

Typical Mé Féin attitude. No wonder we are fu*ked. Next you'd have the hand across the chest proclaiming your love for your country. (not just you though). The majority of the whinge festival goer's on here.

Where oh where oh where is the money supposed to come from to keep the country afloat.

NOT ONE SINGLE SOLUTION OR ANSWER TO THIS ON THE THREAD?

Oil and gas discovery, maybe.

bgrizzley

Chinasea wrote: »

Typical Mé Féin attitude. No wonder we are fu*ked. Next you'd have the hand across the chest proclaiming your love for your country. (not just you though). The majority of the whinge festival goer's on here.

Where oh where oh where is the money supposed to come from to keep the country afloat.

NOT ONE SINGLE SOLUTION OR ANSWER TO THIS ON THE THREAD?

he gave you a solution right there. if you have somebody who is addicted to wasting money, you cut off the supply. no mon, no fun.

for example, if leo varadkar didnt have E77,000 he couldnt waste it on E79 bottles of Chateau Lynch Bages for the DFA in these trying times

http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/varadkar-defends-governments-expensive-wine-tastes-0034863-1



just to say, there are plenty of legal ways to deny the state taxes. michael noonan has suggested some, like getting rid of sky sports(i dont have it but i guess theres a nice vat take on that!)

doing my own bit, i gave up smoking 6 months ago, nice chunk of unnecessary tax there.
i have also nearly cut out the pub (not drinking, but i am looking into homebrew!). Another unnecessary tax bill.

im doing way less driving, combining journeys - more tax saved, and i am aiming to get rid of one of our 2 cars, it will mean longer days sharing, but worth it IMO for getting rid of one insurance, one road tax, half the fuel bill, half the repairs and parts, and all the tax that goes with them.

i cut all my own timber last year and heated the house with it, no more oil for me in these recessionary times, added bonus, more tax denied.

Maybe the naysayers here are correct and they will get me in the end but im not going to make it easy and its damn well going to cost them multiples of what they take off me.

spank_inferno

Geuze wrote: »

PNG image of tax revenues across the EU attached.

This post folks is the ball game.

I know it wont shut up the moaners, but it should.

Look at the countries Irelands proportion of GDP tax take ranks alongside,

Look at those at the top.

If you want their standard of living, be prepared to pay their standard of tax.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

Still no answers or solutions then? Where is the money to come from. What the f? has this payment got to do with civil servants separate issue that you link? If you'd jump off the sheep wagon you might realize what the tax is for. Try and slink out of paying tax to your country with the hand across the chest in the name of St. Patrick and all things green, but the mé féin thing is a big problem.

You are the one implying I, and others are being selfish, for refusing to pay debts that are not ours.

So I'll ask you again, where will the money come from to pay a property tax from the 150k+ families already in mortgage arrears and only just keeping their heads above water & the poverty line?
What should they not pay, in order to fund this tax? Their mortgage? Food on the table?


The truth if the matter is that the people in comfortable positions who ridicule others already crippled financially, While they observe from the ivory tower are the genuine 'Mé Féiners'.

username123

Wibbs wrote: »

TA I think they mean that some, quite the number of people out there will simply not have enough money to pay it(and other charges coming down the line). Like I said earlier you can't take trousers off a bare arse and there are a lot of bare arses out there. I certainly know a few and OK that's a tiny set of Irish people around my age, but I doubt I'm unusual in knowing a few.

I know plenty, Im currently one of them.

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure there are some deferment options for people in that position, however if they defer for say three or four years they're likely screwed in that their family home is in hock to the revenue(on top of a mortgage), with interest, cos if you can't pay for a few years what are the odds you can find the money to pay back the deferment?

Its quite likely the deferral option will come under a constitutional challenge over the next few years as the government are proposing to allow deferral at a rate of 4% interest per year. Im not sure how constitutional it is for the government to engage in a form of moneylending like this. Especially as the criteria for deferral ensure that most people who fall into it would not be able to get a loan (at a lower rate) from any financial institution.

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Good question. The problem is a scary number of people in this country don't have any extra money. And before the shíte talk about Sky + and smoking fags and nights on the piss they can afford... People I know in this sorry position are non smokers with kids, who haven't had nights out or holidays in years. One guy I know hasn't had a few beers in a pub in 5 years, nor a holiday in the same time.
We have to get back to the crux of the matter. Well three. Our national banking debt, our personal debt and our government spending. We need serious bloody negotiation on all three.

I have a friend who looks great on paper. She is a professional with a great salary. She had bought a house in one part of the country [2006] where her job was at the time, her contract ran out, so she moved to her other job and bought another house [why people buy houses when jobs are so mobile I'll never know but I think this is some Irish thing about home ownership and land or something] without having sold the first house. On top of that a single parent with huge outgoings in child care, with no support from this child's father financial or otherwise, and then low and behold the USC gets lumped on her, which is about the cost of one of her mortgages. So on paper because she has a good salary, gets whacked with major taxes, the USC, two houses in negative equity, can't emigrate because single custodial parents don't get visas anywhere, and in her industry they have stopped permanent contracts, so in some ways, despite being a professional, she may as well be dirt poor because she is cash poor and we all know the credit ran dry.

Now that they are going to loosen up the banks ability to repossess housing, one helpful solution I would see is that if the banks do repossess someone's house, they should reimburse the owner the amount already paid down the line.

I certainly think that consequence would stop the banks in their tracks before exploiting credit ever again. The banks have gotten away with this consequence free as far as I can see.

bgrizzley

username123 wrote: »

I know plenty, Im currently one of them.



Its quite likely the deferral option will come under a constitutional challenge over the next few years as the government are proposing to allow deferral at a rate of 4% interest per year. Im not sure how constitutional it is for the government to engage in a form of moneylending like this. Especially as the criteria for deferral ensure that most people who fall into it would not be able to get a loan (at a lower rate) from any financial institution.

the irony of this, a country crippled by debt and those entrusted to get us out of it, exploiting those who can afford it least, for 30 pieces of silver...

darkhorse

spank_inferno wrote: »

If you want their standard of living, be prepared to pay their standard of tax.

I don't know what country you are in, but I have to tell ya the truth. The truth is, that even if we paid 10 times their standard of tax, we would still get nothing.
ALL THE EXTRA TAXES THAT WE ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY WHILST IN THIS GREAT RECESSION, IS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF PAYING BANKERS AND BONDHOLDERS, AND WHATEVER IS LEFT IN THE POT IS FOR TO KEEP THE ELITE POLITICIANS, AND EX POLITICIANS, IN THE LIFESTYLE TO WHICH THEY HAVE BECOME VERY MUCH ACCUSTOMED TO.
WOULD YOU PLEASE WAKE UP.

Wibbs

spank_inferno wrote: »

This post folks is the ball game.

I know it wont shut up the moaners, but it should.

Look at the countries Irelands proportion of GDP tax take ranks alongside,

Look at those at the top.

If you want their standard of living, be prepared to pay their standard of tax.

I agree SI, however there are a couple of problems with that. Dig up a graphic of those countries economies and compare and contrast. Secondly look at the sheer waste in public spending that has gone on and continues to go on in this country of ours, so there's defo the smell of throwing good money after bad involved and most of all in order to pay a higher standard of tax one must have money to do so in the first place. That's the biggest issue of all for more and more people in this country.

Chinasea wrote: »

Where is the money to come from.

First off forget the country for the moment if you're a household in the shíte how do you get out of it? Numero uno, you cut expense across the board, keeping only essentials in play. Secondly you renegotiate your debts and you seek to find more ways of earning money for the household. Same for a country. The problem is the gov are mostly aiming at the very last one on that list. The major problem with that is there is an ever decreasing base to "earn" this money from.

What the f? has this payment got to do with civil servants separate issue that you link

I presume it's to do with our very large public services bill. I'm not just talking of wage bills oh those PS bastards have it easy guff either. Many many areas of the PS need serious pruning and streamlining.

If you'd jump off the sheep wagon you might realize what the tax is for.

What is the tax for though CS? Serious question. The take the blue pill answer of "it's for local services" won't wash.

Try and slink out of paying tax to your country with the hand across the chest in the name of St. Patrick and all things green, but the mé féin thing is a big problem.

Sure with some that is indeed the case, however with others it's down to simple real life economics. If you're just keeping your head above water and have no wriggle room with sod all spare money at the end of a month and you are faced with two real life choices for a required expense; going "official" and paying say 200 quid, or going the "nixer" route and paying 100 quid. It's a pretty easy bloody choice. Some people may even have to borrow that money for an unforeseen expense, again very easy choice. That's the problem with raising taxes in dodgy times. The risk is what you gain in one area, you lose more in another. It's happening already. A nieghbour of mine noted that in the "boom" he had a small percentage of people looking to "go off the books", but most didn't. Fast forward to today and he says that ratio has damn near reversed. That's a chunk of change right there. On top of that people stop spending. Economies are largely based on confidence and this kinda thing reduces it.

darkhorse

bgrizzley wrote: »

the irony of this, a country crippled by debt and those entrusted to get us out of it, exploiting those who can afford it least, for 30 pieces of silver...

As I said before, they were voted in by the citizens of this country, are getting paid by the citizens of this country, but they actually do not represent this country. We need Direct Democracy.

spank_inferno

darkhorse wrote: »

ALL THE EXTRA TAXES THAT WE ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY WHILST IN THIS GREAT RECESSION, IS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF PAYING BANKERS AND BONDHOLDERS, AND WHATEVER IS LEFT IN THE POT IS FOR TO KEEP THE ELITE POLITICIANS, AND EX POLITICIANS, IN THE LIFESTYLE TO WHICH THEY HAVE BECOME VERY MUCH ACCUSTOMED TO.

No.... Its not.
The bank monies are already gone

The increase in tax you pay today are to address the current budget defecit that exists.. today!

But don't let common sense get in the way of your bar-stool rant.

Le_Dieux

Chinasea wrote: »

Typical Mé Féin attitude. No wonder we are fu*ked. Next you'd have the hand across the chest proclaiming your love for your country. (not just you though). The majority of the whinge festival goer's on here.

Where oh where oh where is the money supposed to come from to keep the country afloat.

NOT ONE SINGLE SOLUTION OR ANSWER TO THIS ON THE THREAD?[/QUOTE]


Nor on the 3 threads previously on the HHC. Just hypocrasy and mud slinging from some of the pro payers.

Chinasea

bgrizzley wrote: »

he gave you a solution right there.

Oh no he didn't.


just to say, there are plenty of legal ways to deny the state taxes. michael noonan has suggested some, like getting rid of sky sports(i dont have it but i guess theres a nice vat take on that!) Great attitude!

doing my own bit, i gave up smoking 6 months ago, nice chunk of unnecessary tax there. Good for you, at least you might be less of a burden on the HSE in years to come and be around a bit longer to hopefully contribute some TAX

im doing way less driving, combining journeys - more tax saved, and i am aiming to get rid of one of our 2 cars, it will mean longer days sharing, but worth it IMO for getting rid of one insurance, one road tax, half the fuel bill, half the repairs and parts, and all the tax that goes with them.
Shame that a bloody full blown recession had to make you cop onto being somewhat enviornomentally aware....

Maybe the naysayers here are correct and they will get me in the end but im not going to make it easy and its damn well going to cost them multiples of what they take off me. What's with this detached 'them' thing. We are all part of this country - we are [COLOR=Red]them[/COLOR]. We should all be contributing, and what's more we shouldn't be forced to.

Services are brought to your doorstep. we should have been paying this tax long time ago, again, shame that a full blown recession has forced it about.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

Services are brought to your doorstep. we should have been paying this tax long time ago, again, shame that a full blown recession has forced it about.

Any suggestions yet where struggling families already in mortgage arrears are to find the extra cash to fund this property tax from?

150k homes in arrears.

SamHall

SamHall wrote: »

Any suggestions yet where struggling families already in mortgage arrears are to find the extra cash to fund this property tax from?

150k homes in arrears.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property-and-construction/central-bank-figures-show-slowing-arrears-1.1319585

The number of people who are over two years behind on their mortgages is 23,500, according to the bank The number of restructured loans fell to 79,852 cases from 81,634. Those whose terms have been eased permanently rose 13 per cent to 23,432 during the quarter, the bank said.

bgrizzley

Chinasea wrote: »

Services are brought to your doorstep.wrong i provide my own services from water to books we should have been paying this tax long time ago, again, shame that a full blown recession has forced it about.

nice, lose out on 2k to gain E200. you should run for office, you'd fit right in;)

Banjo String

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property-and-construction/central-bank-figures-show-slowing-arrears-1.1319585

The number of people who are over two years behind on their mortgages is 23,500, according to the bank The number of restructured loans fell to 79,852 cases from 81,634. Those whose terms have been eased permanently rose 13 per cent to 23,432 during the quarter, the bank said.

That relates to folk in arrears for two years for crying out loud

Is this your attempt at denial?

Total number of mortgages in arrears for private residences rose from 141,389 accounts in Q3 2012 to 143,851 accounts in Q4 2012 - an increase q/q of 1.74%, well below any q/q increase since the beginning of the series. Average increase since Q3 2009 when the data started stands at 6.51%.

Published on Thursday last MaryAnne.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2013/03/732013-irish-mortgages-arrears-q4-2012.html?showComment=1362702252427&m=1

Bullseye1

Haha I see revenue are being optimistic on their valuations. Are they in league with Nama and the banks.

@ SamHall
"That relates to folk in arrears for two years for crying out loud. Is this your attempt at denial?"

Read the link again. Not all are 2 years in arrears. The figures they give are approx 950,000. Still a hell of a lot.

I also read an article, but cannot locate the link, where 1/3 of Buy to let mortgage holders are deliberately not paying mortgages.

Chinasea

SamHall wrote: »

Any suggestions yet where struggling families already in mortgage arrears are to find the extra cash to fund this property tax from?

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all; espeically interested to know this from someone advising and advocating the other sheep to engage, plumbers, painters, mechanics etc., from the black market.

Bullseye1

Chinasea wrote: »

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all; espeically interested to know this from someone advising and advocating the other sheep to engage, plumbers, painters, mechanics etc., from the black market.

Glad your getting your services free gratis? TD by any chance? Cause the rest of us tax payers getting nothing for free.

The Dagda

Chinasea wrote: »

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all; espeically interested to know this from someone advising and advocating the other sheep to engage, plumbers, painters, mechanics etc., from the black market.

There's nothing "free gratis" we all pay tax, that's the point. We pay too much tax already, for the services we receive. Just because you've decided something is ok doesn't make it ok, or right!.

squod

Chinasea wrote: »

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all

Any ideas how we're meant to continue to put €3bn PA into the PS pensions black hole ?

.

Wibbs

Chinasea wrote: »

Good for you, at least you might be less of a burden on the HSE in years to come and be around a bit longer to hopefully contribute some TAX

Actually by dying younger they'd save on pensions and long term care especially if god forbid they come down with very expensive illnesses like Alzheimers. Someone dropping dead at 64 saves the state an absolute fortune. So keep hoofin the tabs and chugging full fat milkshakes, it's your patriotic duty.

We should all be contributing, and what's more we shouldn't be forced to.

Answer me this; can you afford these taxes? I mean do you have the ability to pay? If you're not liable for these taxes such as the household tax or the upcoming water tax, then frankly and with the utmost of respect you're not in this debate except philosophically. If you are and you can pay, then you have not a blind clue about the many many thousands of families who quite simply can't.

Answer me this; How can people pay more if they're already breaking even or worse actually broke or worse again under mountains of debt? You cannot get blood from a stone and this is the single biggest issue you're avoiding.

Services are brought to your doorstep. we should have been paying this tax long time ago, again, shame that a full blown recession has forced it about.

Jesus I really don't know if you live in this country or your IP is shared with Dail Eireann... I live in an urban area. I pay for my rubbish collection, I pay road tax, I pay a TV licence(soon to become another global tax), I pay for my utilities, I pay for my post to be delivered etc. Pray tell what services are brought to my doorstep to do with my home? Actually screw that what services are being brought to my doorstep full stop? That excuse would have flown a few years back with "free" rubbish collection etc, but not now. And don't get me started with the parlous state of much of the services I already pay for, outside of motorways the roads and streets and footpaths of this country are a fcuking disgrace. The health service is a bloody(no pun) joke in many areas and a full on crying shame in others. Never mind the eye swivellingly daft cost overruns of many of our public works(have an oul research about the Luas debacle and you'll feel it was made up in La La Land).

That's me, feet up in suburbia. What about all those rural dwellers, who have to contend with significantly fewer services? Christ some face an hour or more's drive in an ambulance should they require emergency care. Never mind the shítloads of Garda stations no longer manned. Many rural folks are already paying above what urban folks pay for local services And you want us to give more money to these chinless morons in government and the PS to waste. BTW This is NOT a rant agin PS workers. I know enough of them and most are working hard giving value and getting by like the rest of us. However there is a faction that are wastes of time, space and money and I strongly suspect that percentage goes through the whole thing. Some of the stories of stupidity, duplication and sheer bloodyminded waste I could tell from direct experience. You would truly think I was relating a lost Fr Ted sketch .

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all

As The Dagda points out we're already paying and will soon pay more for these services.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

Still waiting on your solution as to how services are so supposed to be provided free gratis to one and all; espeically interested to know this from someone advising and advocating the other sheep to engage, plumbers, painters, mechanics etc., from the black market.

Listen, I'm advocating either non payment, black market claw backs to people who either do not agree to this sham, or those that can't afford it.

You're advocating people pay it, regardless if they can afford it, and regardless if they support it.

My question is, where does this cash come from, from the people on the poverty line?

seamus189

I know it's a bit late in the day to be debating the actual mechanism of the tax but what are people's general opinions on a site-value tax vs. house-value tax? Some people have suggested the debate has been a bit 'swept under the carpet' since a site-value tax would heavily penalise developers with large land banks. Good book on the issue by Emer O'Siochru called 'The Fair Tax' but here's a small amount of the material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Ireland

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ronan-lyons-a-sitevalue-tax-rewards-those-who-use-land-well-and-punishes-speculators-and-landhoarders-26892329.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/site-value-tax-easier-to-implement-and-better-for-economy-1.509214?page=2

Also, would people be in favour of hypothecating (i.e. linking) the property tax income to local authority budgets? I know in the UK property rates are one of the main sources of revenue for district councils and depending on how efficiently the council in your area is run, the lower the rate you have to pay on the value of your property.

Mikros

Going by many of the replies on this thread a lot of people either don't have to pay this tax, or it will have little or no impact on their finances. The problem with the property tax is that it takes almost no account of your ability to pay it, unlike other taxes on income. The only option is to defer which itself carries an interest charge of 4% per annum. The argument that a house represents "wealth" is ridiculous if you are hundreds of thousands in negative equity and unable to sell.

A property tax is all well and good if we had a functioning property market where people could trade down to a lower tax band or go back to renting. But it is the wrong time to implement this tax with the current massive unresolved mortgage arrears problem. That is one of the single greatest issue that needs to be resolved before the country can start to recover.

This tax will push a few more people over the edge. In my view people on the edge are the people we should be trying to protect and nothing about this tax has that in mind.

darkhorse

spank_inferno wrote: »

The increase in tax you pay today are to address the current budget defecit that exists.. today!

Who told ya that?

uch

I work for Revenue and know we're all ****ed, the system was designed over the last year, and was working in late december

Banjo String

uch wrote: »

I work for Revenue and know we're all ****ed, the system was designed over the last year, and was working in late december

Lol, reads like 'revenue employees are all bolloxed' lol.

Chinasea

SamHall wrote: »

Lol, reads like 'revenue employees are all bolloxed' lol.

TBH, it is a waste of time even trying to have a debate. Total Mé Féin attitude true and true.

Keep on paying your plumber under the counter and any other dishonest way you can skive out of paying revenue whilst trying to justify it on an open forum where you will have plenty of sheep bah bah back with you, as they too seem totally delirious as how services are paid for other than ranting about the bankers the bankers the bankers.

What is we tell 5 year old's two wrongs don't make a right, but if you think the above little quote that you have seclected is funny I think that further exposes where you are at (or not at tbh).

professore

clairefontaine wrote: »

Electricity is one of the highest in the EU.

Phone tax is at 22%. Why is the phone taxed as a luxury in this day and age?

Fuel at the pump is on par with France, but in France they don't pay motor tax on top of what they pay at the pump and they have superb roads.
.

For which you pay 20 or 30 euro toll for each trip. And fuel in france is more expensive than here. The french also pay more tax than us for better services. However our public sector are still pa.id far more than the french across the board. Plus the French have a property tax.

MonkstownHoop

Chinasea wrote: »

TBH, it is a waste of time even trying to have a debate. Total Mé Féin attitude true and true.

Keep on paying your plumber under the counter and any other dishonest way you can skive out of paying revenue whilst trying to justify it on an open forum where you will have plenty of sheep bah bah back with you, as they too seem totally delirious as how services are paid for other than ranting about the bankers the bankers the bankers.

What is we tell 5 year old's two wrongs don't make a right, but if you think the above little quote that you have seclected is funny I think that further exposes where you are at (or not at tbh).

wrong side of the bed this morning?

Phill Ewinn

uch wrote: »

I work for Revenue and know we're all ****ed, the system was designed over the last year, and was working in late december

You trying to tell me a government service actually works? lol. You'll be outsourcing, redesigning and hiring expensive consultants after week one.

Solair

professore wrote: »

For which you pay 20 or 30 euro toll for each trip. And fuel in france is more expensive than here. The french also pay more tax than us for better services. However our public sector are still pa.id far more than the french across the board. Plus the French have a property tax.

A return trip from Bordeaux to Paris works out €115 in tolls alone!!

monkeypants

Everytime I see a discussion on the LPT in the media, it's mentioned that we need to broaden the tax base. Doesn't this mean that there should be a corresponding drop in tax elsewhere?

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

TBH, it is a waste of time even trying to have a debate. Total Mé Féin attitude true and true.

Keep on paying your plumber under the counter and any other dishonest way you can skive out of paying revenue whilst trying to justify it on an open forum where you will have plenty of sheep bah bah back with you, as they too seem totally delirious as how services are paid for other than ranting about the bankers the bankers the bankers.

What is we tell 5 year old's two wrongs don't make a right, but if you think the above little quote that you have seclected is funny I think that further exposes where you are at (or not at tbh).

You're still to let me know where the 150k house-owners currently in mortgage arrears, and struggling financially will magic this money from?

When you come back with that suggestion to me, we'll debate.

Repeatedly implying I'm selfish for not wanting to pay a yearly tax on a property I provided for myself with no help from the govt, whatsoever, and which I've paid thousands already on stamp duty, doesn't make me selfish.

It makes me a reasonable person for questioning:

Where will I find this extra money from, and what I will need to cut back on if this money, which I can't really afford is forcibly taken from me?

Why have these laws and dail motions been rushed through to enable revenue to forcibly take 3-600 euros from homeowners, yet those that owe then millions aren't being pursued so ruthlessly?

Wibbs

Chinasea wrote: »

TBH, it is a waste of time even trying to have a debate.

The thing is CS you've studiously avoided anything approaching a debate. This appears to be your entire "argument";

Total Mé Féin attitude true and true.

Keep on paying your plumber under the counter and any other dishonest way you can skive out of paying revenue whilst trying to justify it on an open forum where you will have plenty of sheep bah bah back with you, as they too seem totally delirious as how services are paid for other than ranting about the bankers the bankers the bankers.

Again no debate.

So again I ask,
are you liable for this tax?
If you are can you afford this tax and the others coming down the line?
How does someone pay a tax(or anything else for that matter) if they quite simple have no money?

If you keep avoiding the questions like the above I'd be forced to conclude your either a government shill, incredibly naive or very young.

Wibbs

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

You trying to tell me a government service actually works? lol. You'll be outsourcing, redesigning and hiring expensive consultants after week one.

To be fair the revenue service in Ireland actually works very well in my experience. It would be lovely if other depts followed their example.

Chips Lovell

seamus189 wrote: »

I know it's a bit late in the day to be debating the actual mechanism of the tax but what are people's general opinions on a site-value tax vs. house-value tax? Some people have suggested the debate has been a bit 'swept under the carpet' since a site-value tax would heavily penalise developers with large land banks. Good book on the issue by Emer O'Siochru called 'The Fair Tax' but here's a small amount of the material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Ireland

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ronan-lyons-a-sitevalue-tax-rewards-those-who-use-land-well-and-punishes-speculators-and-landhoarders-26892329.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/site-value-tax-easier-to-implement-and-better-for-economy-1.509214?page=2

Also, would people be in favour of hypothecating (i.e. linking) the property tax income to local authority budgets? I know in the UK property rates are one of the main sources of revenue for district councils and depending on how efficiently the council in your area is run, the lower the rate you have to pay on the value of your property.

The site value vs. house value tax was something that was debated prior to its introduction. Labour for one were advocating a site value tax. There was an expert set up to examine that and other issues, a.k.a. the Thornhill report. It concluded that while there was some merit in the site value tax, the house value one would be the better option based on simplicity and transparency.

Re. Development land, they've already introduced a windfall gains tax for rezoned land. There's another recurring tax meant to be on the way for zoned development land. I suspect they haven't introduced that one yet given that a lot of that land is in Nama at the moment.

monkeypants wrote: »

Everytime I see a discussion on the LPT in the media, it's mentioned that we need to broaden the tax base. Doesn't this mean that there should be a corresponding drop in tax elsewhere?

Once the deficit is narrowed, yes that's what you'd hope to see.

Chinasea

SamHall wrote: »

You're still to let me know where the 150k house-owners currently in mortgage arrears, and struggling financially will magic this money from?

You have not told me where we shall get the money to pay for services to your door but:

We could drag up of tons of multifaceted minorities, majorities and Skivers and mé féiners who 'can't afford' to pay or live anywhere at any given time. It would be endless. We will always have poor just like we will always have prostitution.

What I won't entertain is wasting any more of my time time dancing around fellow citizens who advocate skiving out of paying badly needed tax for his beloved country, not only by trying to incite mass noncompliance in this case but blatantly advocating employing someone on the black market to do his plumbing etc.

Banjo String

Chinasea wrote: »

You have not told me where we shall get the money to pay for services to your door but:

We could drag up of tons of multifaceted minorities, majorities and Skivers and mé féiners who 'can't afford' to pay or live anywhere at any given time. It would be endless. We will always have poor just like we will always have prostitution.

What I won't entertain is wasting any more of my time time dancing around fellow citizens who advocate skiving out of paying badly needed tax for his beloved country, not only by trying to incite mass noncompliance in this case but blatantly advocating employing someone on the black market to do his plumbing etc.

I pay income tax on each and every euro I make.
I pay vat on services used, and consumables etc.
I pay over 700€ per year on our family car 'motor tax', and over €300 for my work vehicle.
I put roughly €150 in my work vehicle a week un fuel, prob another 150 in the family car (monthly)
I provide my gas and electric, both taxed, and vat added on.

I have health insurance which must be paid for privately, but I'll still pay the doctor if I need see him, prescriptions on top of that.

I pay for my refuse collection, and will soon pay for my water (and won't complain about it)

I pay book fees for the school.

The above list, thrown together in a few mins while waiting on a customer to arrive in his yard, though I'm sure I could think of many more goods and services I currently pay for, all taxed, most with vat attached.

If were not paying enough, well then raise income tax, but do not place a rent over my home, especially as I've paid a substantial sum on stamp duty already for it, and IMO this 'double taxation' thing has to stop somewhere.

You have it in your head I'm selfish, and want everything provided for free?

Seems legit.

bgrizzley

Chinasea wrote: »

TBH, it is a waste of time even trying to have a debate. Total Mé Féin attitude true and true.

Keep on paying your plumber under the counter and any other dishonest way you can skive out of paying revenue whilst trying to justify it on an open forum where you will have plenty of sheep bah bah back with you, as they too seem totally delirious as how services are paid for other than ranting about the bankers the bankers the bankers.

What is we tell 5 year old's two wrongs don't make a right, but if you think the above little quote that you have seclected is funny I think that further exposes where you are at (or not at tbh).

Have a read of the HHC threads Chinasea(if you have a spare month!), i do not remember one anti HHC poster saying they wouldnt pay any extra tax if they were in a position, definitely no Me Feiners. most issues with this one were either (like mine), not agreeing with taxing the roof over our head, some didnt agree that only home owners have to pay and subsidise everyone else and some just didnt have any more blood left to give
but there were definitely no me feiners.

recind this tax and increase tax on my income and ill pay this and more if necessary (and i can start smoking again:pac:)

Wibbs

Chinasea wrote: »

You have not told me where we shall get the money to pay for services to your door

And you've not answered questions re what services we get "to our door" we don't already pay for?

We could drag up of tons of multifaceted minorities, majorities and Skivers and mé féiners who 'can't afford' to pay or live anywhere at any given time. It would be endless. We will always have poor just like we will always have prostitution.

Avoiding the points raised. Again.

What I won't entertain is wasting any more of my time time dancing around fellow citizens who advocate skiving out of paying badly needed tax for his beloved country, not only by trying to incite mass noncompliance in this case but blatantly advocating employing someone on the black market to do his plumbing etc.

Avoiding the points raised. Again.

Again I ask(and this is the third or fourth time),
1) Are you yourself liable for this tax?
2) If you are can you afford this tax and the others coming down the line?
3) How does someone pay a tax(or anything else for that matter) if they quite simple have no money?

If you keep avoiding the questions like the above I'd be forced to conclude your either a government shill, incredibly naive or very young. I'm starting to think of ogres who live under bridges too as surely no one could be this one tracked of thinking and obstinate about it.

ilovesleep

bgrizzley wrote: »

i do not remember one anti HHC poster saying they wouldnt pay any extra tax if they were in a position, definitely no Me Feiners. most issues with this one were either (like mine), not agreeing with taxing the roof over our head, some didnt agree that only home owners have to pay and subsidise everyone else and some just didnt have any more blood left to give
but there were definitely no me feiners.

Another arguement, or it's my one anyways is that I believe the government should lead by example. Cut their own incomes in half for example.

Many of us are in the same boat but with different circumstances:
-unemployment,
-1 spouse unemployed, the other just aboat stay afloat, entitled to no help or benefits.
-underemployment
-huge mortgage in contrast to their falling income.

It is also said, working people are the new poor. Where it appears they might or should be well off, it's all going out again in bills that are rising and rising costs.

One thing is for sure -

ilovesleep

* incomes have been dramitically reduced for so many people.

Let the government lead by example.

Another arguement is this HHC and property tax is going to fund local services, where there is so much wastage happening within the LAs. Can they become efficient?
- one of the services in LAs, this tax claims to serve is something called Planning and Development. That went well for the past couple of years, didn't it? Allowing planning to go ahead on many developments, many which are now lying empty and idle. Just how qualified are they in the LAs?

mfceiling

2 simple questions.

1. What if you do not have the money to pay this tax (as a huge amount of people are literally to the pin of their collar and do not have 3 or 400 euros spare)?

2. What exactly will the local authorities do with this money?