The naked ape

maninasia

But what is the mirror test? The ability to recognise yourself in the mirror. I wouldn't read too much into such a human oriented test.

I tell you what, ask a dog to smell his own piss, and he will pass the test everytime. How about you?

Logical_Bear

BBDBB wrote: »

dont mind me piddling in the corner

Im just marking my territory

and seeing as you have opposing thumbs off you go and get a tool called a mop and clean up after yerself:pac:

Three Seasons

I see humans as animals. We have have unique abilities but so do many species.

Even if you use the argument that we are unique to separate us from animals, you could use that argument to identify one species of fish which stands out from the rest, are they now not really fish?

Wibbs

Three Seasons wrote: »

I see humans as animals. We have have unique abilities but so do many species.

None come close to our abilities when it comes to brains. Intelligence like ours is unique as an evolutionary trick in the four billion year history of this planet. Flight? Insects, birds and mammals and dinosaurs cracked that one. Swimming pretty much ditto. The vast majority of adaptations to environment were repeated across species and types. Not brains. We're pretty much it. That, right there is unique. And no dolphins et al aint the same. I can hop, it doesn't make me a kangaroo.

Even if you use the argument that we are unique to separate us from animals, you could use that argument to identify one species of fish which stands out from the rest, are they now not really fish?

Well the first fish that hopped out onto the land were unique and became amphibians and then reptiles etc, so no they weren't quite fish even at that early stage.

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

None come close to our abilities when it comes to brains. Intelligence like ours is unique as an evolutionary trick in the four billion year history of this planet. Flight? Insects, birds and mammals and dinosaurs cracked that one. Swimming pretty much ditto. The vast majority of adaptations to environment were repeated across species and types. Not brains. We're pretty much it. That, right there is unique. And no dolphins et al aint the same. I can hop, it doesn't make me a kangaroo.

As far as we know. Humans were around for thousands of years before they started showing really complex behaviour. I think our brain is an adaptation that can be shown in other species like dolphins, parrots, other apes it's just dolphins and the like only have one piece of the puzzle. Humans are the result of the right brain, in the right body, at the right time in the right environment. If our ape evolved in a less hostile environment it might not have had any reason to get smarter about food.

If there is intelligent life on other planets would it not show that super intelligence is a rare but happens over the course of enough time.

Wibbs

I'm probably wrong, but I personally reckon super brains like ours are vanishingly rare "out there"*. They only happened the once with us here and in our present form you're talking less than 100,000 years. A mere blink. Given how successful it makes a species you would have imagined it would have sprung up way more times before now, like all the other novel tricks of evolution. It's an odd one.






*I'd go further and reckon higher non bacterial life is damned rare out there too. For most of earths history life was nearly all single celled, even today in biomass terms it's still the majority. Hell we ourselves are more bacteria than human.

Ava_e

Wibbs wrote: »

Hell we ourselves are more bacteria than human.

For bacteria Wibbs, you are a hell of a lot articulate.

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm probably wrong, but I personally reckon super brains like ours are vanishingly rare "out there"*. They only happened the once with us here and in our present form you're talking less than 100,000 years. A mere blink. Given how successful it makes a species you would have imagined it would have sprung up way more times before now, like all the other novel tricks of evolution. It's an odd one.

We did have more than one human like ape though, if you think about it humans have only brought about a safe and enlightened environment for themselves in the last few hundred years. It wasn't until the very simple concept of the scientific theory came along that we began to truly start understanding life in general and then things started getting easier for us.

We have been on the verge of extinction a few times now. Some of the times we actively brought about our own extinction events. Despite our large brains we still have no guarantee we're going to survive much longer as a species. If anything it seems to put us in harms way at times. That's why I like to think of us as earth's reproductive system, in nature it's only reproduction that allows for such a self destructive organism to exist.

*I'd go further and reckon higher non bacterial life is damned rare out there too. For most of earths history life was nearly all single celled, even today in biomass terms it's still the majority. Hell we ourselves are more bacteria than human.

Lol, I couldn't get over that when I heard it. Our genes don't even make up the majority of genetic code in our bodies. It's not even half is it?

We probably do have to start considering that life on this planet isn't nature, it's just a tiny pool of nature. Life and nature in general spans the universe and our little pool doesn't really give us a good example of what life could turn out like. There may be planets with 2 or 3 super intelligent species on them. As unlikely as that seems based on what we know of this planet, the universe is so big it probably has happened.

Wibbs

Ava_e wrote: »

For bacteria Wibbs, you are a hell of a lot articulate.

Ahh thanks, my bacteria thank you. It's all them pulling the strings, I'm just their puppet. If I took an antibiotic I'd be put in a home.

ScumLord wrote: »

We did have more than one human like ape though,

Welll yes. We had a few species of bipedal ape alright, which sprang from the same initial source though and the line that led to us and the various versions of us was pretty much just one of them.

if you think about it humans have only brought about a safe and enlightened environment for themselves in the last few hundred years. It wasn't until the very simple concept of the scientific theory came along that we began to truly start understanding life in general and then things started getting easier for us.

I dunno SL, I think that's a teeny bit hubristic of us now looking back. Things have been getting easier for us for a very long time when compared to other species out there. We could change the environment to suit ourselves as far back as the invention of fire. By the time the agricultural revolution kicked off we were really suckin diesel. Enlightened? Look at guys like Plato et al. We're still musing on that bloke's thoughts.

We have been on the verge of extinction a few times now.

In real terms once really. Back around 50,000 years ago when we shrunk down to maybe 20,000 individuals of modern people. Since then I can't think of one. Nuclear annihilation? Maybe. We had the tech alright but didn't use it(yet).

Despite our large brains we still have no guarantee we're going to survive much longer as a species.

No and the more complex and interconnected we become, the more vulnerable we are. No civilisation has survived that. Complexity brings real dangers. Take the Black Death as an example. It killed millions. Took out well over half of Europe alone, more like two thirds at times. Yet Europe survived and indeed thrived during and because of that. Why? few reasons, but one biggy is that it affected all strata of society pretty much equally and the structure of that society was more top down and linear and simple, rather than interconnected weblike of today. They did experiments on potential natural and unnatural disasters in Germany a few years back, where they imagined 2 out of every 10 people were removed from work for a week to see the effects. They were surprised at how strong the effect was. They were able to compare the figures to world war two when Germany when it was being bombed the most actually upped production. I'll try to dig up a link.

That's why I like to think of us as earth's reproductive system, in nature it's only reproduction that allows for such a self destructive organism to exist.

Interesting one

Lol, I couldn't get over that when I heard it. Our genes don't even make up the majority of genetic code in our bodies. It's not even half is it?

I know mad or wha?

We probably do have to start considering that life on this planet isn't nature, it's just a tiny pool of nature. Life and nature in general spans the universe and our little pool doesn't really give us a good example of what life could turn out like. There may be planets with 2 or 3 super intelligent species on them. As unlikely as that seems based on what we know of this planet, the universe is so big it probably has happened.

Possibly. Though I suspect that's very rare. Why? I suspect when one species gets that extra abstract spark the others who don't have it yet die out. Kinda like what happened here with our other human cousins.

steddyeddy

ScumLord wrote: »

We did have more than one human like ape though, if you think about it humans have only brought about a safe and enlightened environment for themselves in the last few hundred years. It wasn't until the very simple concept of the scientific theory came along that we began to truly start understanding life in general and then things started getting easier for us.

We have been on the verge of extinction a few times now. Some of the times we actively brought about our own extinction events. Despite our large brains we still have no guarantee we're going to survive much longer as a species. If anything it seems to put us in harms way at times. That's why I like to think of us as earth's reproductive system, in nature it's only reproduction that allows for such a self destructive organism to exist.


Lol, I couldn't get over that when I heard it. Our genes don't even make up the majority of genetic code in our bodies. It's not even half is it?

We probably do have to start considering that life on this planet isn't nature, it's just a tiny pool of nature. Life and nature in general spans the universe and our little pool doesn't really give us a good example of what life could turn out like. There may be planets with 2 or 3 super intelligent species on them. As unlikely as that seems based on what we know of this planet, the universe is so big it probably has happened.

Well there is huge regions of our genome that was previously called "junk DNA" but now there is a thoery that this DNA although non coding, might be involved in regulation of gene expression.

Capt'n Midnight

Ava_e wrote: »

For bacteria Wibbs, you are a hell of a lot articulate.

oh yes, he's very well cultured

Wibbs

I have this uncontrollable urge to drink and also smear myself in agar. If I even wash my hands in antibacterial soap I'm usually dribbling on myself for two hours afterwards.

maninasia

ScumLord wrote: »

As far as we know. Humans were around for thousands of years before they started showing really complex behaviour. I think our brain is an adaptation that can be shown in other species like dolphins, parrots, other apes it's just dolphins and the like only have one piece of the puzzle. Humans are the result of the right brain, in the right body, at the right time in the right environment. If our ape evolved in a less hostile environment it might not have had any reason to get smarter about food.

If there is intelligent life on other planets would it not show that super intelligence is a rare but happens over the course of enough time.

Actually humans have showed complex intelligence with evidence of fire and tool use going back 100,000s to MILLIONS of years (human genus and our ancestors). One of the fascinating things about the study of human history is that new and amazing discoveries happen all the time that totally change our previous assumptions. It's best to leave assumptions at home these days .
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientdailylife/qt/fire_control.htm
http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/early-human-tool-use.htm (estimated first tool use, over 3 million years ago!)

The usual story that we are just a flash in the pan is not really true, it's taken us a really long time to get to where we are now. I don't count homo sapiens and cro mangnum man as being somehow separate from the homo genus, we are actually very much a hybrid from that genus.

What really sets us apart is the ability for cultural learning to be passed on, and this seemed to accelerate over the last few thousand years. While we do seem to possess abilities that other animals don't (such as complex language acquisition and superior dexterity for tool development), the fact is social evolution seems to have been just as if not more important factor as to how we got here, today. It's been shown that many other animals have the ability to pass down tool development and learning to the next generation, it just seems that we do it better. Is that because of our language skills, our increasing life spans, assistance from grandparents, cultural developments, infant dependence, there are just so many questions?


For instance imagine if we had been plopped down on the Earth 1 million years ago at the age of about 4, would we just invent fire quickly? How many generations would that little trick take to learn again? Then the development of stone tool technology through the aeons (some ancient stone tools were actually really difficult to make and required careful planning). Cultural and social learning was obviously very important as we added more and more tricks to assemble what we call modern society.

I think our brains seems to have the ability to soak up a lot of informatiion, collectively, process and pass it on, a bit like the internet but human style. A human cloud. More brains, more processing, more cultural transfer, more optimised ways of doing things.

Capt'n Midnight

Just remember that we aren't puny creatures with big brains.


It has been said that we are the only animal that can run a mile, walk twenty swim a river and climb a tree.

But that's not true.

If we keep fit we can easily run twenty miles, and in the heat of the midday savannah sun we can run down antelope by persistence



But the hormonal changes in humans is very interesting that thing about women liking different types of men at different eh times