Unreasonable boss

daenerysstormborn3

I am looking for some advice in relation to my employer. I am a Legal Executive/P.A. to the sole litigation partner in her own Firm. Just to give you some background on my boss, she is a control freak and does not like to hear the word "no". In an office that employees 8 people, 4 of whom are support staff, since I started there less than 2 years ago, 18 support staff (it was 17 up to last week and someone else left today in fact:rolleyes:) have been and gone because they can't cope with my boss's demanding nature.

This is what happened today. We finish at 5p.m. on a Friday. This is the phone call I got at 5p.m. today.

Boss: The photocopier ran out of paper while that document was going through, can you come down and sort it? (I'm sure you're all well aware how difficult it is to fill a photocopier with paper)
Me: It's 5 o'clock, I have to go now.
Boss: But there's loads more work to do.
Me: Well I can't help you, sorry, it's 5 o'clock and I have to go.
Boss: But you knew how busy we were.
Me: Yes, so did you, if you needed me to stay late you should've asked. I have discussed this with you before, I am not telepathic, if you need me to stay late I expect to be asked and it to be optional.
Boss: So you won't even stay and help out.
Me: No, for the third time, it's 5 o'clock, I have to go, I have plans.
Boss: Well I'll speak to you about this next week.
Me: Fair enough. (Hang up)

I have 3 serious issues with this exchange.

I have had three serious conversations with her in the past about me staying late. Each time I have requested that she give me notice if she needs me to stay late, I'm not talking about a day, I'm talking about her asking me at lunchtime if she needs me to work late that evening. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Each time I have spoken to her about this, I have also said that asking someone to work late is a question, there are two possible answers. She seems to think that once she asks, the automatic answer is "yes".

Aside from us having spoken about this in the past, I have an additional problem on that score. If I stay late, she never allows me to go and use my phone to tell my boyfriend that I will be home late. In April of last year I was involved in a serious motorbike accident. I was late leaving work that day and the first phone call my boyfriend got from me was me telling him I was lying in the road after being hit by a van (and no, before anyone jumps on it, I wasn't speeding because I was late, a van pulled out of a side road looking in the other direction - speed was not a factor at all). Since then, anytime I have had to work late, I have lost count of the amount of times I have met my boyfriend, on my way home from work, coming to look for me, expecting to find me in a ditch or lying in the road again. I was out of work for 6 months after the accident, I hardly think I need to remind my boss that the last time I was late home and my boyfriend got no phone call from me, the next phone call he got was me telling him I'd been hit by a van? Aside from extending common courtesy to your employee, she well knows my history with the bike accident better than anyone.

Secondly, I do not think it is acceptable to turn around at 5 o'clock on a Friday evening and demand that anyone work late. Twice I said to her "I have to go" and the third time I said "I have plans". It is almost as if she wishes me to tell her my plans so that she can deem them worthy enough for me to leave on time.

Finally, I am seriously unhappy with the threatening way she ended the conversation. "Well I'll speak to you about this next week." I think it is a very unprofessional way of speaking to someone and I think it is very unfair on anybody to have to end their working week in that way. I have spent the evening going over and over the conversation getting more and more annoyed. In addition to my annoyance, I know the only reason she said that is to buy herself time so that she can consult with a barrister friend of hers, that specialises in employment law, to make sure that I have no comeback to whatever it is she wants to say to me about the matter. Yes, she has done this in the past and yes, I have overheard these conversations in relation to other members of staff.

Some additional information, my contract states something similar to these words "during busy periods you may be asked to work additional hours", that is all it says, it doesn't qualify it by defining what a "busy period" is or whether notice should be given or not.

My position is that I have had 3 conversations with my employer about this matter and after all 3 she agreed to give me notice. I also think it is completely unreasonable to expect anybody to just be able to work late at the drop of a hat on someone's whim, particularly when the work that was being done today could've easily waited until Monday and furthermore, people have lives outside their jobs, sometimes plans simply cannot be changed for any reason.

Further to the above, I do work late quite often. I have told my boss on numerous occasions that I have no problem working late as long as I am asked (and it is optional not compulsory) and given notice. For example, next week I will have to work late on Wednesday and Thursday, possibly Friday also, as we will be in court and I have no problem doing so as I know it is a busy period and that is part of my job.

I think I may need to put something in writing to my boss about this situation and I would appreciate any advice in relation to same. Just to point out again, I have spoken to her about this behaviour on 3 previous occasions and it has made no difference to her, clearly, so that is why I now feel I should put something in writing to her setting out my requirements.

Bandana boy

When there is a court date or the like which will require you working late then getting notice for this is reasonable.If work is backed up and not going to be finished in time then you should realise this yourself and devise a plan to sort it out.
Are you being asked to stay back because a task your boss thought you would have completed before 5 has not been completed.
It sounds to me like you are in the wrong career and would be better suited to a job with fixed hours and tasks and not one which requires this amount of flexibility and self management.

daenerysstormborn3

Bandana boy wrote: »

When there is a court date or the like which will require you working late then getting notice for this is reasonable.If work is backed up and not going to be finished in time then you should realise this yourself and devise a plan to sort it out.
Are you being asked to stay back because a task your boss thought you would have completed before 5 has not been completed.
It sounds to me like you are in the wrong career and would be better suited to a job with fixed hours and tasks and not one which requires this amount of flexibility and self management.

Work was not "backed up". At 5p.m. she decided that she wanted something else done and expected me to stay to do it.

I have worked in this area for 8 years in identical roles so my "suitability" is not the issue here.

drunkmonkey

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Some additional information, my contract states something similar to these words "during busy periods you may be asked to work additional hours", that is all it says, it doesn't qualify it by defining what a "busy period" is or whether notice should be given or not.

Your contract states that you can be asked to work additional time when the business requires it. Your boss asked could you do something that would've taken less than 5 minutes and you made a complete drama out of it and refused to help.
Your not working to the spirit of your contract. As op said your better off in a different job probably working for a corporation with a lot of staff, your not suited to a small business and should probably leave as your about to be pushed.

You falling off your motorbike is completely irrelevant and your boyfriend worrying if he doesn't get a call at an exact time every day needs to be discussed with him. Your an adult a phone call is not required every day at an exact time especially when your in a job that doesn't always allow it.
I think your being completely unreasonable to the person paying your wages.

daenerysstormborn3

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Your contract states that you can be asked to work additional time when the business requires it. Your boss asked could you do something that would've taken less than 5 minutes and you made a complete drama out of it and refused to help.
Your not working to the spirit of your contract. As op said your better off in a different job probably working for a corporation with a lot of staff, your not suited to a small business and should probably leave as your about to be pushed.

You falling off your motorbike is completely irrelevant and your boyfriend worrying if he doesn't get a call at an exact time every day needs to be discussed with him. Your an adult a phone call is not required every day at an exact time especially when your in a job that doesn't always allow it.
I think your being completely unreasonable to the person paying your wages.

Yes, my contract states that I can be asked to work additional time. Asked. I was "asked" and I was unable to work the additional time as I had to be somewhere at 5:30. She did not ask me to do something that would take 5 minutes, filling the photocopier with paper was not her request.

My boyfriend does not worry if he doesn't get a call at an exact time everyday. Re-read the OP if you need clarification. Maybe it's just me but if I am running late, be it leaving work or going to an appointment, I like to show some common courtesy and let people know, especially if I have made plans.

Furthermore, I didn't "fall off my motorbike", I was hit by a van, massive difference.

tatli_lokma

OP I have to say that you do come across in your posts as particularly snappy and defensive. Maybe its not your intention but that is just how it reads. Even the conversation you had with your boss as you report it yourself doesn't present you in a very positive light. TBH if the conversation took place as you report and I was your manager I would be pretty narked with you. You could have refused to stay late in a less confrontational manner.

GreeBo

^
If its frequent occurrence and the OP has already had this same conversation with her boss then I dont think being meek about it is required anymore.

tatli_lokma

GreeBo wrote: »

^
If its frequent occurrence and the OP has already had this same conversation with her boss then I dont think being meek about it is required anymore.

I agree but being assertive is one thing. Coming over as petulant is another. What would have been the harm in saying 'ok I'll refill the photocopier but I'm afraid I can't stay past that as I have plans'?

If the boss pursued it again you can be firm and remind her that all was required was notice but now you have plans. A simple sorry I can't help, if I had known earlier I would have maybe been able to reschedule but not now.

Also it seems a bit like OP knew things were busy and rather than ask if she would be needed just let her boss back herself into a corner and them took pleasure in saying no. Almost nah-nah you didn't ask in time, tough.

Sorry to OP if that is unfair, but I am just getting that vibe from the tone of your posts.

drunkmonkey

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Yes, my contract states that I can be asked to work additional time. Asked. I was "asked" and I was unable to work the additional time as I had to be somewhere at 5:30

Unless this 5.30 appointment was to take your mother to the hospital, go to a friends funeral or go to your sisters wedding it was no more important than your job, you could have put it off and helped your boss.

Luckily enough I'm not your boss as if I was I'd be giving your a warning or letting you go on Monday.

Your boss is a smart qualified person don't think for one minute they haven't been keeping a written account of everything that's happened if they ever need to produce evidence it wasn't an unfair dismissal in court. It's one of the first thing they tell you to do with employees in a start your own business course.

GreeBo

Little Ted wrote: »

I agree but being assertive is one thing. Coming over as petulant is another. What would have been the harm in saying 'ok I'll refill the photocopier but I'm afraid I can't stay past that as I have plans'?

If the boss pursued it again you can be firm and remind her that all was required was notice but now you have plans. A simple sorry I can't help, if I had known earlier I would have maybe been able to reschedule but not now.

Also it seems a bit like OP knew things were busy and rather than ask if she would be needed just let her boss back herself into a corner and them took pleasure in saying no. Almost nah-nah you didn't ask in time, tough.

Sorry to OP if that is unfair, but I am just getting that vibe from the tone of your posts.

OP has already stated that the request to work late was not related to the photocopier "incident".

The boss has already pursued it 3 times now, each time (and it would appear in subsequent conversations about it) the OP has stated that they do not mind working late, as long as they get a couple of hour notice if its not obvious that working late is required.

It doesnt seem to me at all that the OP knew things were busy, tbh it seems like you have made up your mind that the OP is a troublemaker and are now "seeing" things to backup this theory.

Of course there is a tone to the posts because the OP is pissed off with her boss for being treated like some sort of offshore temp...again.
its unfair to judge the OP's attitude to their boss based on their angry initial post on here IMO.

GreeBo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Unless this 5.30 appointment was to take your mother to the hospital, go to a friends funeral or go to your sisters wedding it was no more important than your job, you could have put it off and helped your boss.

Luckily enough I'm not your boss as if I was I'd be giving your a warning or letting you go on Monday.

Your boss is a smart qualified person don't think for one minute they haven't been keeping a written account of everything that's happened if they ever need to produce evidence it wasn't an unfair dismissal in court. It's one of the first thing they tell you to do with employees in a start your own business course.

Why would you be firing the OP for declining to work late when asked without notice? That makes no sense. The OP has already stated that they often work late off their own bat, and indeed have no issue doing it on demand, if given notice.

Just because the boss has a written account of something doesnt deem it grounds for a fair dismissal. The OP could takes notes and have a case for constructive dismissal "my boss keeps asking me to work late at the last minute, and then sets up meetings to punish me for refusing to work late in those situations"

What exactly is the criteria for the dismissal in your opinion?
Seems like you are just trying to appear like a hard-ass to me tbh.

drunkmonkey

A couple of hours notice is not always possible in a small business and Pixies's contract says nothing about a couple of hours notice.
She was needed to muck in and she didn't. There's no more to it. She has no interest in the business she works for and should leave.

Uncle Ben

The next time it happens ask for 'double time'. You'll probably find she will fill the photocopier herself.

GreeBo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A couple of hours notice is not always possible in a small business and Pixies's contract says nothing about a couple of hours notice.
She was needed to muck in and she didn't. There's no more to it. She has no interest in the business she works for and should leave.

Do you also do childrens fiction?
What on earth are you basing these statements on?
Read the thread, the OP already works late both when asked and when she realises herself that there is work to be finished.

Perhaps this "smart, qualified" boss needs to hire more people, or just plan/manage her office better?

Being smart and qualified doesnt preclude you from being a poor people manager and/or having poor interpersonal skills.
Just ask the 18 people who have left in the last 2 years. Thats not a normal turnover for a small business of this nature.

finnharpsboy

op is in the right here

"For many employees the hours of work are specified, for example, in their contract of employment or in an ERO or REA. If the hours of work are not specified, under Section 17 of the Act, the employer must notify the employee of the starting and finishing times at least 24 hours before the first day or the day of each week the employee is required to work. The employer can do this by putting up a notice in a conspicuous place in the employee's workplace on a day when the employee is working. If the employee is required to work additional hours the 24 hours' notice must be given in the same way. However, in unforeseen circumstances such as another employee off work sick, the employer can ask the employee to work at less than 24 hours' notice."

source: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

tatli_lokma

GreeBo wrote: »

OP has already stated that the request to work late was not related to the photocopier "incident".

The boss has already pursued it 3 times now, each time (and it would appear in subsequent conversations about it) the OP has stated that they do not mind working late, as long as they get a couple of hour notice if its not obvious that working late is required.

It doesnt seem to me at all that the OP knew things were busy, tbh it seems like you have made up your mind that the OP is a troublemaker and are now "seeing" things to backup this theory.

Of course there is a tone to the posts because the OP is pissed off with her boss for being treated like some sort of offshore temp...again.
its unfair to judge the OP's attitude to their boss based on their angry initial post on here IMO.

OP says herself that the boss said 'but you knew we were busy' OP answered yes and so did you. This is what makes me think that OP is playing silly beggars to prove a point. whilst I do understand how annoying and irritating it is to have a boss like that I think OP's choice of language and how she is dealing with it is only going to be to her own detriment. You can be assertive and make your point without getting up peoples noses.

P_1

You work to live, not the other way round.

The OP has said that they have no problem with pitching in by staying back the odd hour, showing the boss some courtesy provided that the boss also shows them some courtesy by asking them a few hours in advance when they need them to stay back.

Now the boss is clearly not showing the OP any courtesy by asking them to stay back late at the last moment.

Just my take on it.

Wabbit Ears

OP, Expect your marching orders on Monday. If what you wrote is an accurate description of how things went its you thats being completely unreasonable. The bosses expectations are completely normal for the field you are in and, as already stated, your attitude and this field are completely incompatible.

With regards to the fact you've been in this field a long time Its worth pointing out, by your own admission, your perspectives and those of your partner have changed, not the requirements of the profession.

Wabbit Ears

finnharpsboy wrote: »

op is in the right here

"For many employees the hours of work are specified, for example, in their contract of employment or in an ERO or REA. If the hours of work are not specified, under Section 17 of the Act, the employer must notify the employee of the starting and finishing times at least 24 hours before the first day or the day of each week the employee is required to work. The employer can do this by putting up a notice in a conspicuous place in the employee's workplace on a day when the employee is working. If the employee is required to work additional hours the 24 hours' notice must be given in the same way. However, in unforeseen circumstances such as another employee off work sick, the employer can ask the employee to work at less than 24 hours' notice."

source: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

Written by a civil servant for civil servants and has no basis in reality outside those unionized walls.

finnharpsboy

law is law, as for expecting her marching orders on monday, me thinking unfair dismissal

Uncle Ben

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

OP, Expect your marching orders on Monday. If what you wrote is an accurate description of how things went its you thats being completely unreasonable. The bosses expectations are completely normal for the field you are in and, as already stated, your attitude and this field are completely incompatible.

With regards to the fact you've been in this field a long time Its worth pointing out, by your own admission, your perspectives and those of your partner have changed, not the requirements of the profession.

5pm on a Friday a call is given to stay behind, and you call the op 'unreasonable'. I can only assume that you are an employer or in management, however from my experience having observed Rights Commissioners and others, I am sure that they will see different. If what the op says is correct she may receive her 'marching orders' but she will be vindicated through appeal.

Firehen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A couple of hours notice is not always possible in a small business and Pixies's contract says nothing about a couple of hours notice.
She was needed to muck in and she didn't. There's no more to it. She has no interest in the business she works for and should leave.

Are you suggesting you have to be so invested in your career that you must choose it over your personal life on every occasion you're asked to choose between the two?

And no interest? How on earth did you reach this conclusion?

mikemac1

OP, are you getting overtime to stay late?

The_Honeybadger

Op the tone of your post almost suggests that you knew she would ask and you were storing up your reply as she hadnt asked you in time. I have a similar clause in my contract of work, but luckily i get on extremely well with my boss. I stay late when needed and take time in lieu during quitet periods etc. if she rang me asking to stay late at short notice and i cant do it i would politely state that i honestly cant because im doing whatever and make my apologies. I'm not sure if your op is a word for word account of what happened but if it is I can tell you I wouldn't tolerate it from somebody working under me. It sounds like your boss is under pressure working to tough deadlines and expects a lot of flexibility, sometimes at short notice and may forget to ask when she thinks its blatantly obvious that some mucking in is required. If you can't offer her that and get confrontational over being asked to stay late when she forgot to ask you then perhaps you should leave and look for something more suitable. No shame in that, that kind of role is not for everybody, especially people with commitments like picking kids up from crèche etc.

finnharpsboy

she has no problem working late, she has done so in the past. asking at 5pm on a friday is totally unacceptable and if her employer, or any employer for that matter, thinks that asking someone at literally the last minute is acceptable, they're wrong.

so her response was a bit "narky",imo its totally understandable, yours would be too if you had made arrangements, had already had a discussion on three previous occasions about the same thing and then to be threatened with "i'll see you monday about this".

Sounds to me like her boss has no respect for her

daenerysstormborn3

mikemac1 wrote: »

OP, are you getting overtime to stay late?

We are given time in lieu for staying late. I returned to work after my accident around the second week of October and by the end of October I had already worked up 17 hours of time owed. To be fair, I think that shows how flexible I am when it comes to working late. I receive my time in lieu only when it suits my employer. For example, going into 2012 I carried over 6 days of time owed, that's 6 full days of overtime worked. Again, another example of my willingness to accommodate working late when I can.

expect your marching orders on Monday :pac:

My contract does not qualify the phrase "may be asked to work additional hours", it cannot be interpreted in a way that is beneficial to just one party. I am flexible when my life outside of works allows me to be and I expect the same degree of flexibility in return.

I didn't create this thread to debate who is right and who is wrong, I created the thread looking for advice on how to handle the situation going forward. If you don't agree with my view on my work v life priorities, having a rant about it really isn't going to make much difference to me, I'm just looking for advice on how I can progress this matter so this situation does not arise again.

drunkmonkey

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I didn't create this thread to debate who is right and who is wrong, I created the thread looking for advice on how to handle the situation going forward.

Ok,

"Boss: The photocopier ran out of paper while that document was going through, can you come down and sort it? (I'm sure you're all well aware how difficult it is to fill a photocopier with paper)
Me: It's 5 o'clock, I have to go now.

You want to know how to handle this situation going forward?

Show a bit of respect for the person paying your wages!!!

LeinsterDub

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ok,

"Boss: The photocopier ran out of paper while that document was going through, can you come down and sort it? (I'm sure you're all well aware how difficult it is to fill a photocopier with paper)
Me: It's 5 o'clock, I have to go now.

You want to know how to handle this situation going forward?

Show a bit of respect for the person paying your wages!!!

You weren't being asked to stay late. You were asked to throw a stack of paper in the printer on your way out. Your attitude seems less than agreeable. I know you've worked late before but it seems you decided to draw a line in the sand

Meteoric

My major objection to the situation is the fact that the person is being asked to work late but not allowed, while working outside contracted hours, to contact people who have legitimate reason (the accident) to be worried about the person not being home at the usual time. What reason could an employer have to prevent an employee reporting having to stay late to others? Even if you have a rule about personal phone calls why should that apply to unpaid overtime? On a similar contract I've worked up to 2 hours late, If I'd not been able to call people who were expecting me there would have been lots of worry as to why I was not home.

Meteoric

Oh and OP though I know "we will talk about this Monday" seems threatening once you have said you have to leave Friday they can't exactly say "come talk to me now about this" because you have already said you have to go. So that is the soonest they can do it

drunkmonkey

Meteoric wrote: »

My major objection to the situation is the fact that the person is being asked to work late but not allowed, while working outside contracted hours, to contact people who have legitimate reason (the accident) to be worried about the person not being home at the usual time. What reason could an employer have to prevent an employee reporting having to stay late to others? Even if you have a rule about personal phone calls why should that apply to unpaid overtime? On a similar contract I've worked up to 2 hours late, If I'd not been able to call people who were expecting me there would have been lots of worry as to why I was not home.

You honestly believe that her employer is so unreasonable that they would not allow Puixue to call home to say she was going to be late if she had to work late. I think it's an assumption she's making rather than a fact.
Her comments have made her appear not cooperative and aggressive at every turn.

Let's not forget " I hardly think I need to remind my boss that the last time I was late home and my boyfriend got no phone call from me, the next phone call he got was me telling him I'd been hit by a van?"

Why has her boss got to think a about that every time they might think of asking op to help for 10 minutes?