Unreasonable boss

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

I hope things work out tomorrow. Chances are it was a throw away comment from her on Friday evening - It was probably her way of ending the conversation and saving some face.

Going from the above you're not the only one working long hours. You're boss seems to be going above and beyond as well.

Yes, it's her business, her firm, her choice.

CarMe

My god you come across so rude and sarcastic its quite shocking. Maybe you're just pent up due to this issue but I think its definitely something you should be more aware of.

professore

I do think calling an employee at knocking off time on a Friday two floors to fill a photocopier smacks of power tripping to me. I wouldn't dream of asking an employee to stay Friday evening unless a dire emergency or without sufficient notice.

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Yes, it's her business, her firm, her choice.

Do you give any consideration to the fact that her entrepeneurship is providing you with a job. If, say, she left at 5pm every day would there be enough work to keep you employed?

And it's not a case of my saying, 'do you know I'm paying your wages' - that's not the point I'm making. Your boss has created and sustained a business, and yet you seem to have little consideration as to the sacrifices this entails.

It may be due to no fault of hers that something has come up at 5pm on a Friday that requires urgent attention, but because she cannot give you a couple of hour's notice you think it's unreasonable to rely on you?

Let me put it to you this way - would you ever point out at an interview stage that you were not available for work due to a last minute emergency at 5pm on a Friday? If not, why not?

smcgiff

professore wrote: »

I do think calling an employee at knocking off time on a Friday two floors to fill a photocopier smacks of power tripping to me. I wouldn't dream of asking an employee to stay Friday evening unless a dire emergency or without sufficient notice.

Calling someone to come up two flights of stairs just to fill the photocopier does sound mad. But, IIRC, there were other issues as well.

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

Do you give any consideration to the fact that her entrepeneurship is providing you with a job. If, say, she left at 5pm every day would there be enough work to keep you employed?

And it's not a case of my saying, 'do you know I'm paying your wages' - that's not the point I'm making. Your boss has created and sustained a business, and yet you seem to have little consideration as to the sacrifices this entails.

It may be due to no fault of hers that something has come up at 5pm on a Friday that requires urgent attention, but because she cannot give you a couple of hour's notice you think it's unreasonable to rely on you?

Let me put it to you this way - would you ever point out at an interview stage that you were not available for work due to a last minute emergency at 5pm on a Friday? If not, why not?

To be honest, it's not really my place to consider anything about how she runs her business. It's her business, it's up to her how she runs things. Why should I have consideration for the sacrifices this entails? It's her choice to run her own business, not mine.

If something urgent arises that's fair enough, it happens but that doesn't automatically mean that I can just drop my plans to facilitate her. I had somewhere to be on Friday, that's life. Sometimes I don't have somewhere to be and I accommodate her, as I have pointed out already.

No, I wouldn't point that out because that's not the case. Where have I said that I would never work late on a Friday, or any day for that matter, if something last minute arises? Where have I said that? I have, however, said that I accommodate it where possible, like any normal person with a normal life and responsibilities outside of work.

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Where have I said that I would never work late on a Friday, or any day for that matter, if something last minute arises?

I'm pretty sure you've said on numerous occasions on this thread that you've come to an arrangement with your boss that she will give you notice (a couple of hours) to work late?

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you've said on numerous occasions on this thread that you've come to an arrangement with your boss that she will give you notice (a couple of hours) to work late?

Yes, that is not exclusive to something last minute arising, I have pointed that out already. Of course, it's understandable that you can't always plan for everything. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that. At the same time though, just because something last minute pops up, that doesn't automatically give someone rights over my personal time. I accommodate her when I can even if it is last minute, I have pointed that out already and given examples.

Sir Oxman

Well, after you being hauled over the coals on the thread OP, I think you have been perfectly reasonable with working back and have the patience of a saint dealing with your boss.

Best of luck tomorrow and let us know what happens.

mikemac1

smcgiff wrote: »

You're boss seems to be going above and beyond as well.

The boss is a partner and will benefit if the firm expands. Hardly a martyr, it's her own firm.


The OP will see none of this equity and just works for a salary and overtime.

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Yes, that is not exclusive to something last minute arising, I have pointed that out already. Of course, it's understandable that you can't always plan for everything. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that. At the same time though, just because something last minute pops up, that doesn't automatically give someone rights over my personal time. I accommodate her when I can even if it is last minute, I have pointed that out already and given examples.

So, she has come to rely on you to work last minute. That's great - good for you.

On this occasion you couldn't work late and weren't happy giving a specific reason. As has been pointed out by others there are probably communication skills that need to be developed.

You're well entitled to a personal life. If you had something you needed to get to and couldn't work late at little notice (as you have done in the past) then you just need to tell her. She cannot discipline you for this.

This is what you need to communicate next tomorrow. However, it's not unreasonable for your boss to have some idea of the importance of the event. Even if it's something vague along the lines of 'family matter' - She doesn't sound like the type to be bothered with enquiring further, but if she does tell her you're not comfortable with talking about it further. I don't get the impression you'd be too shy to say this.

After hours on a Friday, the employer is relying on your good graces to stay back and should respect that. But, your employer is paying you a wage to help in the smooth running of the company that ye are both earning a living from - and that requires respect too.

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

So, she has come to rely on you to work last minute. That's great - good for you.

On this occasion you couldn't work late and weren't happy giving a specific reason. As has been pointed out by others there are probably communication skills that need to be developed.

You're well entitled to a personal life. If you had something you needed to get to and couldn't work late at little notice (as you have done in the past) then you just need to tell her. She cannot discipline you for this.

This is what you need to communicate next tomorrow. However, it's not unreasonable for your boss to have some idea of the importance of the event. Even if it's something vague along the lines of 'family matter' - She doesn't sound like the type to be bothered with enquiring further, but if she does tell her you're not comfortable with talking about it further. I don't get the impression you'd be too shy to say this.

After hours on a Friday, the employer is relying on your good graces to stay back and should respect that. But, your employer is paying you a wage to help in the smooth running of the company that ye are both earning a living from - and that requires respect too.

Again, another example of how I know exactly who I'm dealing with here and you don't. Believe me, she'd want all the details. This is something I am not comfortable with, my employer does not need to know about my personal life.

I do not and will never see why I should divulge any of my personal life to my employer. For example, I am getting married in August and have requested 2 weeks off (this time off was granted in October and just last month she decided she was going to question me as to whether I could change my time off, if I had anything booked and paid for - but that's another matter entirely) and I haven't told her what my time off is for. Why should I?

"After hours on a Friday, the employer is relying on your good graces to stay back and should respect that. But, your employer is paying you a wage to help in the smooth running of the company that ye are both earning a living from - and that requires respect too."

Yes, and if she can't respect the fact that sometimes people have plans they can't change then why would anyone allow her that respect in return?

smcgiff

mikemac1 wrote: »

The boss is a partner and will benefit if the firm expands. Hardly a martyr, it's her own firm.


The OP will see none of this equity and just works for a salary and overtime.

Tomorrow would be a good opportunity to address the time in lieu - she could request overtime payment. This may put a stop to the overtime requests.

Re the success of owner's firm. Very few firms are in expansion mode, even in area's like litigation. There are others factors to consider. Even in the good times I know of practices going to the wall.

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Again, another example of how I know exactly who I'm dealing with here and you don't. Believe me, she'd want all the details. This is something I am not comfortable with, my employer does not need to know about my personal life.

I do not and will never see why I should divulge any of my personal life to my employer. For example, I am getting married in August and have requested 2 weeks off (this time off was granted in October and just last month she decided she was going to question me as to whether I could change my time off, if I had anything booked and paid for - but that's another matter entirely) and I haven't told her what my time off is for. Why should I?

"After hours on a Friday, the employer is relying on your good graces to stay back and should respect that. But, your employer is paying you a wage to help in the smooth running of the company that ye are both earning a living from - and that requires respect too."

Yes, and if she can't respect the fact that sometimes people have plans they can't change then why would anyone allow her that respect in return?

But you're clearly competent in not telling her, you've just gone too far and not giving her anything. You need to find a happy medium.

professore

smcgiff wrote: »

Do you give any consideration to the fact that her entrepeneurship is providing you with a job. If, say, she left at 5pm every day would there be enough work to keep you employed?

And it's not a case of my saying, 'do you know I'm paying your wages' - that's not the point I'm making. Your boss has created and sustained a business, and yet you seem to have little consideration as to the sacrifices this entails.

It may be due to no fault of hers that something has come up at 5pm on a Friday that requires urgent attention, but because she cannot give you a couple of hour's notice you think it's unreasonable to rely on you?

Let me put it to you this way - would you ever point out at an interview stage that you were not available for work due to a last minute emergency at 5pm on a Friday? If not, why not?

This is unfair, the boss chose to set up a business with the risks and potential rewards it entails. It is reasonable to expect employees to work late on occasion but if it's a regular or expected thing, either their salary/bonus should reflect this, more staff should be hired, or the business is unsustainable.

I wonder has the boss ever said thanks to the OP for any of the times she did stay late?

I worked in a company before where the boss would let us know when late work was needed, and would always let us order food or whatever, and thanked us for it afterward. Also never made a fuss about us taking an hour in the morning for personal issues. If you didn't pull your weight though you were let go. The staff turnover was very low. Small things but they made a big difference.

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

Tomorrow would be a good opportunity to address the time in lieu - she could request overtime payment. This may put a stop to the overtime requests.

Re the success of owner's firm. Very few firms are in expansion mode, even in area's like litigation. There are others factors to consider. Even in the good times I know of practices going to the wall.

I have done this before. For example, when all employees start in the office she does training with everyone on a Saturday. This usually takes 5 Saturdays, from 9:30a.m. to 1p.m. approx. I had my 5 Saturdays completed within the first 6 months of working there. It was over a year later before I actually got that time in lieu back so while I was waiting for the time in lieu I asked if I could be paid for the time instead (just to draw a line under it) and she said that that wasn't possible and that wasn't the agreement.

sillysmiles

Avoiding getting into the bickering - I think their are two ways to deal with this.
One- ignore it, the "we'll talk about this on Monday" may have been a throwaway comment that she has since forgotten about.

Two, take it to her on Monday. Don't wait for her to "call you in" to go through it. Be prepared and record the meeting and the outcome. What do you want to achieve? You start with something like that you sense that she's annoyed over you not staying late but that as she well knows you have no issue working extra time when required provided it is possible. Unfortunately on Friday it wasn't possible. If you reaffirm the exist agreement, email her, reiterate the agreement in the email. Then you have put it in writing.

Either way I'd get off boards and enjoy you Sunday. You can be sure she's not spending her Sunday stressing about you.

smcgiff

professore wrote: »

This is unfair, the boss chose to set up a business with the risks and potential rewards it entails. It is reasonable to expect employees to work late on occasion but if it's a regular or expected thing, either their salary/bonus should reflect this, more staff should be hired, or the business is unsustainable.

I wonder has the boss ever said thanks to the OP for any of the times she did stay late?

I worked in a company before where the boss would let us know when late work was needed, and would always let us order food or whatever, and thanked us for it afterward. Also never made a fuss about us taking an hour in the morning for personal issues. If you didn't pull your weight though you were let go. The staff turnover was very low. Small things but they made a big difference.

Thanks for your opinion, professore.

professore

At the end of the day, good employees are still hard to find. My approach is to root out the bad eggs early, and treat the good ones with respect. It's a 2 way street.

If a good employee is not happy, they will leave sooner or later.

daenerysstormborn3

professore wrote: »

This is unfair, the boss chose to set up a business with the risks and potential rewards it entails. It is reasonable to expect employees to work late on occasion but if it's a regular or expected thing, either their salary/bonus should reflect this, more staff should be hired, or the business is unsustainable.

I wonder has the boss ever said thanks to the OP for any of the times she did stay late?

I worked in a company before where the boss would let us know when late work was needed, and would always let us order food or whatever, and thanked us for it afterward. Also never made a fuss about us taking an hour in the morning for personal issues. If you didn't pull your weight though you were let go. The staff turnover was very low. Small things but they made a big difference.

During a busy period last year, coming up to a big case, everyone in the office worked until 9p.m. one night and during that time we were offered a box of pringles to keep us going. A box of pringles when it had been over 5 hours since our lunchtime.

Any other office I've worked in have always been accommodating in that way. For example, a previous solicitor I worked for used to order in food for us both, eat together (which was a nice sociable touch to the late hours) and would always pay for a taxi home for me - out of his own pocket. I lived a 10 minute walk from the office but he didn't want me walking home late at night. At Christmas and on my birthday he always gave me lovely gifts as extra thanks for all my help.

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I have done this before. For example, when all employees start in the office she does training with everyone on a Saturday. This usually takes 5 Saturdays, from 9:30a.m. to 1p.m. approx. I had my 5 Saturdays completed within the first 6 months of working there. It was over a year later before I actually got that time in lieu back so while I was waiting for the time in lieu I asked if I could be paid for the time instead (just to draw a line under it) and she said that that wasn't possible and that wasn't the agreement.

So far from the examples I've given your boss can only be charged with not having a life. And she was right not to pay from time in lieu for past work. However, you could negotiate for over time in future.

daenerysstormborn3

sillysmiles wrote: »

Avoiding getting into the bickering - I think their are two ways to deal with this.
One- ignore it, the "we'll talk about this on Monday" may have been a throwaway comment that she has since forgotten about.

Two, take it to her on Monday. Don't wait for her to "call you in" to go through it. Be prepared and record the meeting and the outcome. What do you want to achieve? You start with something like that you sense that she's annoyed over you not staying late but that as she well knows you have no issue working extra time when required provided it is possible. Unfortunately on Friday it wasn't possible. If you reaffirm the exist agreement, email her, reiterate the agreement in the email. Then you have put it in writing.

Either way I'd get off boards and enjoy you Sunday. You can be sure she's not spending her Sunday stressing about you.

I'm stuck at a home nursing a trapped nerve in my shoulder (result of the accident) so not putting myself out much.

smcgiff

professore wrote: »

At the end of the day, good employees are still hard to find. My approach is to root out the bad eggs early, and treat the good ones with respect. It's a 2 way street.

Are you going to be posting up a job advert? :P

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

So far from the examples I've given your boss can only be charged with not having a life. And she was right not to pay from time in lieu for past work. However, you could negotiate for over time in future.

Apologies if my post was not clear, she refused to pay for overtime with regard to those training hours and refused to pay for overtime into the future. Obviously, when I brought up being paid for the training hours I took it as an opportunity to address any future overtime.

smcgiff

professore wrote: »

If a good employee is not happy, they will leave sooner or later.

The best employees (nearly) always leave (unless you're the best employer in that particular area).

professore

smcgiff wrote: »

So far from the examples I've given your boss can only be charged with not having a life. And she was right not to pay from time in lieu for past work. However, you could negotiate for over time in future.

I would also charge her with not wanting her employees to have a life either, and having incredibly poor people and management skills.

She has to give up a load of Saturday mornings to train someone new every time someone leaves? No wonder she has no time. Would it not be far better for her business to retain the good staff she has? Surely all of the 18 who left can't all have been bad?

I am constantly trying to get the most amount of work for the least amount of time. That's how you make money. :-)

These threads are better than an MBA!

smcgiff

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Apologies if my post was not clear, she refused to pay for overtime with regard to those training hours and refused to pay for overtime into the future. Obviously, when I brought up being paid for the training hours I took it as an opportunity to address any future overtime.

A box of pringles between the lot of ye?

As you say Litigation is going strong and there are other good litigation firms out there, why are you still with this firm? Surely, you're looking to leave if that's how she treats employees. (not that I agree with your stance re your original OP)

Btw, you've probably given way too much information on here and could probably be identified if your boss ever read it. As you say, giving a box of pringles probably sticks out in her mind as being far too generous. Fortunately, she's probably way too busy - even on a Sunday

I'd still take this opportunity to address future overtime - it'd seem the perfect opportunity. Especially if the time you need to take to as time in lieu is causing more overtime to be worked (vicious circle).

0ph0rce0

Some of you guys really are knobs, boring weekend i'm guessing, oh lets attack the OP.

I'd love to work for some of you guys on here.

Stroll in on a Monday, "Hey Boss" and i'd smash your face into your desk.

Problem Solved.

daenerysstormborn3

professore wrote: »

I would also charge her with not wanting her employees to have a life either, and having incredibly poor people and management skills.

She has to give up a load of Saturday mornings to train someone new every time someone leaves? No wonder she has no time. Would it not be far better for her business to retain the good staff she has? Surely all of the 18 who left can't all have been bad?

I am constantly trying to get the most amount of work for the least amount of time. That's how you make money. :-)

These threads are better than an MBA!

Every single one of the people who have left are now in full-time positions, some in bigger, far more successful firms than her's and very happy in their jobs. One is even working in a solicitor's office a few doors down from us. She was sacked on a Wednesday, given 2 day's notice, about 2 weeks before Christmas, and the first working Monday after Christmas was in her new job and is still there 2 years later.

daenerysstormborn3

smcgiff wrote: »

A box of pringles between the lot of ye?

As you say Litigation is going strong and there are other good litigation firms out there, why are you still with this firm? Surely, you're looking to leave if that's how she treats employees. (not that I agree with your stance re your original OP)

Btw, you've probably given way too much information on here and could probably be identified if your boss ever read it. As you say, giving a box of pringles probably sticks out in her mind as being far too generous. Fortunately, she's probably way too busy - even on a Sunday

I'd still take this opportunity to address future overtime - it'd seem the perfect opportunity. Especially if the time you need to take to as time in lieu is causing more overtime to be worked (vicious circle).

Of course I am, I apply for every suitable job that is advertised. Unfortunately, I am not from the area and, for example, the last 2 jobs that came up in quite a large office in the south east were not advertised and were passed by word of mouth through people working in the office to friends of theirs that were out of work.