Glut of repossessed houses could depress prices ‘by up to 25%’

jay0109

here you go folks...a BTL Strategic Defaulter in their own....read it and literally weep whilst you pay your mortgage/rent every month

http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/uncategorized/talking-with-a-strategic-defaulter/
The person in question is a white collar professional and the director of a relatively well known company, she agreed to speak to us on the basis that we kept her identity private. She has a family home and six investment properties.

gaius c

jay0109 wrote: »

here you go folks...a BTL Strategic Defaulter in their own....read it and literally weep whilst you pay your mortgage/rent every month

http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/uncategorized/talking-with-a-strategic-defaulter/
The person in question is a white collar professional and the director of a relatively well known company, she agreed to speak to us on the basis that we kept her identity private. She has a family home and six investment properties.

Absolutely vile stuff. This in particular took the biscuit.

Karl: How much have you put aside by not paying the money you took in?

I have about €12,000 in cash put where the banks won’t find it but then there are also expenses being covered, and part payments being made from time to time to get them off my back. Sometimes I have vacancies and do try (still) to get properties rented out quickly.

Seeing as the person admits to lying through their teeth already, there is no reason we should believe them and can safely assume that they have multiples of that sum stashed away.

OMD

Villa05 wrote: »

It may seem so but if you join the dots, you will see that nearly every major problem in Ireland is linked to high priced property.

We have cookie and the_conductor admitting that they struggle when doctors, dentist or car insurance bills come in(all essentials to living). We still have, at a minimum 2 more austerity budgets to come.

We have people saying they cant afford to have children, so property prices have sterilised a significant portion of our population. This is probably the most tragic outcome of the property bubble.

People can't afford high childcare costs, Employee's in childcare are close to minimum wage, Most business today cut there costs to the bone to survive. So what could be the driver of the high cost, yes, you guessed it, The price of the property the creche facilities are.

Welfare costs, Social welfare was increased above the rate of inflation during the bubble, this was driven by one off taxes from property sales and greedy politicians buying votes. The balance between Social welfare and the cost of working has created a terrible poverty trap
Similar situation in the public sector, bench-marking paid out from one off taxes from property. Public Servants now on salaries we cannot afford and have made 35 year commitments on these salaries at a time when banks were giving more to PS's than employees in the private sector.

The high cost of everything in Ireland is down to property, every time you buy a coffee, lunch, you are paying for someones extortionate mortgage. Many have turned to buying online form the EU rather than going to their local shopping centre.

It still cost the same in the summer months to get 2 week self catering accommodation on the West coast of Ireland as it did in 2002, despite the fact that supply of houses on the west coast for this purpose has ballooned. Do you think this is because demand increased or supply is being kept off the market.

Ireland will never recover as long as the powers that be continue to prevent property prices from falling to their natural floor

The high cost of these items has very little to do with property prices. Much more important is staff costs.

Prices of holiday homes are dictated by what people are willing to pay.

Cost of GP care is mainly staff costs rather than property costs. Most GPs did not build their practices during the boom. Anyway why the hell are people attending the doctor so much that GP costs are a significant cost? Unless you are over 50 why the hell are you attending doctors?

Cost of childcare is due to high staff costs and regulations re staff children ratio. So if you have a baby in child care the staff ratio is 1 staff member for 3 children. So you have to pay the cost of 33% of the wage of a member of staff plus their PRSI, more if the child is in for more than 39 hours a week. In addition you have to pay for light, heat, food, insurance and of course profit for the owner.
Property cost has a role but only really for properties built during 2003-2007 or rents started during this time. Irish people spend more on average on child care than the rest of Europe because we have, on average more children of such an age that they require child care.

Finally of course, the Elephant in the room is that despite what is constantly stated, prices here are not that much out of line with the rest of Europe even with our higher VAT & excise rates.

gaius c

Staff costs are high because people need high wages to pay the high cost of shelter.

Consider this, to rent even a small 3 bed terrace is a very working class area in Dublin like Ballyfermot, you need to part with the guts of €1,000 post-tax income. Now consider the salary needed to support such a rent. An one-income family there would need the earner to be on min €40,000 to be able to afford to live in what is by Dublin standards a fairly undesirable area.

The cost of shelter is a major influence on our wage costs & expectations.

OMD

gaius c wrote: »

Staff costs are high because people need high wages to pay the high cost of shelter.

Consider this, to rent even a small 3 bed terrace is a very working class area in Dublin like Ballyfermot, you need to part with the guts of €1,000 post-tax income. Now consider the salary needed to support such a rent. An one-income family there would need the earner to be on min €40,000 to be able to afford to live in what is by Dublin standards a fairly undesirable area.

The cost of shelter is a major influence on our wage costs & expectations.

Average rent in Ireland is €815 according to Daft report.
Average rent in UK is €968 (£826) https://homelet.co.uk/rentalindex
Average rent in France is €12.60 per m2 http://www.french-property.com/news/french_business/rents_france_2012/

So it is difficult to argue rents in Ireland are so high that they are pushing Irish wages up. Certainly average rent in Ireland should have less of an affect on wages than say either UK or France.

who_ru

jay0109 wrote: »

here you go folks...a BTL Strategic Defaulter in their own....read it and literally weep whilst you pay your mortgage/rent every month

http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/uncategorized/talking-with-a-strategic-defaulter/
The person in question is a white collar professional and the director of a relatively well known company, she agreed to speak to us on the basis that we kept her identity private. She has a family home and six investment properties.

sickening, parasitic behaviour. but she has the banks where she wants them and there's no room for sentiment as far as she's concerned. They won't reposes, it's all PR, at least from the Irish banks, whatever about Ulster.

as ever in Ireland the non property owner is the loser in this sorry state.

The_Conductor

who_ru wrote: »

as ever in Ireland the non property owner is the loser in this sorry state.

Its the person who owns a single property and is living in it- and paying their mortgage, irrespective of how hard it is- alongside all their other bills- and who is still working, and not a social welfare recipient- who is the looser.........

Or- for the real looser- the above- but with 1 or 2 kids, and trying to work and pay creche fees too........

Owning property isn't the be-all and end-all- in many cases its a millstone around people's necks.

gaius c

OMD wrote: »

Average rent in Ireland is €815 according to Daft report.
Average rent in UK is €968 (£826) https://homelet.co.uk/rentalindex
Average rent in France is €12.60 per m2 http://www.french-property.com/news/french_business/rents_france_2012/

So it is difficult to argue rents in Ireland are so high that they are pushing Irish wages up. Certainly average rent in Ireland should have less of an affect on wages than say either UK or France.

It's comparing apples & oranges.
Population density UK: 256 people per square kilometer
Population density France: 117.5 people per square kilometer
Ireland.......64.2 people per square kilometer, the lowest in western Europe

Also they are (with Germany) the economic powerhouse of Europe and don't have the IMF at the door like us.

gaius c

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its the person who owns a single property and is living in it- and paying their mortgage, irrespective of how hard it is- alongside all their other bills- and who is still working, and not a social welfare recipient- who is the looser.........

Or- for the real looser- the above- but with 1 or 2 kids, and trying to work and pay creche fees too........

Owning property isn't the be-all and end-all- in many cases its a millstone around people's necks.

Or the tenants of the woman in the article, slaving to pay their rent on-time and liable to be evicted if they don't, while she spends it on herself instead of paying her own bills.

OMD

gaius c wrote: »

It's comparing apples & oranges.
Population density UK: 256 people per square kilometer
Population density France: 117.5 people per square kilometer
Ireland.......64.2 people per square kilometer, the lowest in western Europe

Also they are (with Germany) the economic powerhouse of Europe and don't have the IMF at the door like us.

not forgetting both countries have lower wages than Ireland.

The_Conductor

gaius c wrote: »

Or the tenants of the woman in the article, slaving to pay their rent on-time and liable to be evicted if they don't, while she spends it on herself instead of paying her own bills.

There's absolutely no indication as to whether they are slaving to pay their rent on-time- or whether its being paid by the government under one of the schemes. The 'lady' doesn't elaborate about where she gets her tenants from. Yes- she is spending the rent on herself and hiding money- 12k in cash, so she says- undoubtedly higher. Obviously she is morally corrupt- her argument- oh, the banks broke all the rules, so I can too- is complete and utter bull.

thewing

OMD wrote: »

Average rent in Ireland is €815 according to Daft report.
Average rent in UK is €968 (£826) https://homelet.co.uk/rentalindex
Average rent in France is €12.60 per m2 http://www.french-property.com/news/french_business/rents_france_2012/

So it is difficult to argue rents in Ireland are so high that they are pushing Irish wages up. Certainly average rent in Ireland should have less of an affect on wages than say either UK or France.

Lies, damned lies and averages...

UK, France averages are seriously skewed by exorbitant rents and population densities in London and Paris - two of the worlds greatest metropolitan centres.

The UK's media commentary in relation to property (prices rising there currently) is that more houses need to be built quick smart as it is sucking money from the real economy - you know like products and services that people get paid for....

The Irish obsession with property is laughable.....property commentary needs to be beaten from our media and our national pysche as it has become a crutch in certain quarters for the 'béal bocht' attitude of some.

Roll on the days when we talk about business startups and the irish stock exchange with the same enthusiasm we have house prices...maybe then will we have grown up as a nation.

The Spider

Absolutely no problem with what that woman is doing, she's right in everything she says, it's a problem split between the banks and the owner, there is absolutely no 'morality' in this, it's business, is it immoral for my business to take business from another company by undercutting them and driving them out to the point they can't compete? No it isn't.

As for people renting cribbing and moaning about rent, so what you pay for a service, that's it you don't own the property no more so than when I rent a holiday home for a week or when I rent a hotel room, the holiday home costs more in July than October, why? supply and demand.

If it costs a grand to live in Ballymun, move further out, or earn more money, the onus is on the government to provide social care not private investors. An investor is entitled to earn the maximum amount possible from their asset.

Regardless of what deals are done with the banks, this is the normal cost of doing business, if you have a company that goes to the wall, your suppliers don't get paid, that's reality, there is no moral obligation to try and pay them off forever, they took the risk supplying you, the same argument can be made in regard to investment property, it's a business the bank supplied you with the cash, the business isn't viable now, so the bank either cuts its losses and crystalises losses or it can wait and see.

This is done the world over, when a business goes kaput you take what you can get or you wait and see if it becomes viable again, xtravision being a case in point.

jay0109

The Spider wrote: »

Absolutely no problem with what that woman is doing, she's right in everything she says, it's a problem split between the banks and the owner, there is absolutely no 'morality' in this, it's business, is it immoral for my business to take business from another company by undercutting them and driving them out to the point they can't compete? No it isn't.

As for people renting cribbing and moaning about rent, so what you pay for a service, that's it you don't own the property no more so than when I rent a holiday home for a week or when I rent a hotel room, the holiday home costs more in July than October, why? supply and demand.

If it costs a grand to live in Ballymun, move further out, or earn more money, the onus is on the government to provide social care not private investors. An investor is entitled to earn the maximum amount possible from their asset.

Regardless of what deals are done with the banks, this is the normal cost of doing business, if you have a company that goes to the wall, your suppliers don't get paid, that's reality, there is no moral obligation to try and pay them off forever, they took the risk supplying you, the same argument can be made in regard to investment property, it's a business the bank supplied you with the cash, the business isn't viable now, so the bank either cuts its losses and crystalises losses or it can wait and see.

This is done the world over, when a business goes kaput you take what you can get or you wait and see if it becomes viable again, xtravision being a case in point.

Lovely stuff :rolleyes:. So by your rationale this woman's property business has gone to the wall and you see no issues in her losing all her 6 houses?
Or do you just believe it works one way and that the banks are the sole problem here!!!

The Spider

jay0109 wrote: »

Lovely stuff :rolleyes:. So by your rationale this woman's property business has gone to the wall and you see no issues in her loosing all her 6 houses?
Or do you just believe it works one way and that the banks are the sole problem here!!!

I didn't say that and neither did she to quote:

"Karl: Has the bank ever threatened you with repossession?

Yes, regularly, the most recent threat was about a month ago. This is one of many, before that they told me in February they were ‘moving in on me’ and there was a threat made in mid 2012 as well. My response has always been ‘you do what you have to’, personally I’d be happy to see them repossess the investment properties, but they won’t do that because they don’t want to crystalise their losses, keeping me on the hook suits them."

They can take the investment properties and crystalise their losses, just as they would with any other business be it a shop, an IT business, an art gallery, whatever, the issue is the banks don't want to crystalise the loss, but they want this woman to give them everything she has, and still keep the properties.

No problem with the bank trying to make maximum gain it's what they're about, I also have no problem with this woman ensuring that she doesn't have to take the hit.

It's business plain and simple, morality doesn't come into it.

stevedublin

jay0109 wrote: »

Lovely stuff :rolleyes:. So by your rationale this woman's property business has gone to the wall and you see no issues in her loosing all her 6 houses?

I don't, if she was in any other type of business and that other business went to the wall, then she would lose that business.
e.g. if she had a shop and it went bust.

Muahahaha

stevedublin wrote: »

I don't, if she was in any other type of business and that other business went to the wall, then she would lose that business.
e.g. if she had a shop and it went bust.

But if she set up a limited company she would have limited liability to the debts of the company going to the wall so your point does not compute.

In a normal business company law would have prevented her becoming personally liable for the debts of the company, the creditors would have to suck up their bad lending decisions.

Muahahaha

gaius c wrote: »

Staff costs are high because people need high wages to pay the high cost of shelter.

Consider this, to rent even a small 3 bed terrace is a very working class area in Dublin like Ballyfermot, you need to part with the guts of €1,000 post-tax income. Now consider the salary needed to support such a rent. An one-income family there would need the earner to be on min €40,000 to be able to afford to live in what is by Dublin standards a fairly undesirable area.

The cost of shelter is a major influence on our wage costs & expectations.

It is unbelievable when you outline it like that.

I was over in Manchester a few weeks back where a friend has just rented a 3 bed semi with decent garden for £720 a month, which is approx €850. It is right next to Old Trafford cricket stadium which is a pretty decent neighbourhood tons of shops and is only 5 stops on the nearby tram to the city centre. I couldn't believe it, a decent area with lots of shops & facilities and only a 15 minute commute to the centre of a city that has 4 million inhabitants. It was a real eye opener on how much over the odds we pay for accommodation here, primarily because of boom time mortgages.

The Spider

Muahahaha wrote: »

It is unbelievable when you outline it like that.

I was over in Manchester a few weeks back where a friend has just rented a 3 bed semi with decent garden for £720 a month, which is approx €850. It is right next to Old Trafford cricket stadium which is a pretty decent neighbourhood tons of shops and is only 5 stops on the nearby tram to the city centre. I couldn't believe it, a decent area with lots of shops & facilities and only a 15 minute commute to the centre of a city that has 4 million inhabitants. It was a real eye opener on how much over the odds we pay for accommodation here, primarily because of boom time mortgages.

Irregardless, of size, Manchester isn't the capital of the UK, it isnt even it's second city, Waterford or Limerick would be comparable on this Island.

What are the salaries in Manchester, I won't compare it to Dublin because, it's unrealistic, on this Island Dublin is the centre of business and commerce.

On the neighbouring island it's London. I'm not comparing Dublin to Lindon I'm comparing capital cities, I don't think a person from London would want to live in Manchester any more than a person from Dublin would Want to live in Limerick or Waterford.

Villa05

Manchester Unemployment rate 5.5% (April 2013), wonder if they have youth unemployment problems and high emigration rates. Manchester is more comparable with bubble times Dublin than depression times Limerick & Waterford

OMD

Villa05 wrote: »

Manchester Unemployment rate 5.5% (April 2013), wonder if they have youth unemployment problems and high emigration rates. Manchester is more comparable with bubble times Dublin than depression times Limerick & Waterford

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/aug/03/economy-economics-living-wage-manchester-liverpool-leeds-newcastle-sheffield

Half the population of Manchester earn less than £10.74.
Yeah real bubble time wages there. That's about €25,000 a year. So half the workers in Manchester earn less than €25,000 a year.

The Spider

Villa05 wrote: »

Manchester Unemployment rate 5.5% (April 2013), wonder if they have youth unemployment problems and high emigration rates. Manchester is more comparable with bubble times Dublin than depression times Limerick & Waterford

North of England wages are spectacularly low, especially for the same jobs down south, Manchester IS comparable to Limerick or Waterford, certainly not Dublin. Manchester IS not the centre of commerce in the Island, people DO NOT gravitate towards it, in the sand way they do towards Dublin here and London, next door.

stevedublin

Muahahaha wrote: »

But if she set up a limited company she would have limited liability to the debts of the company going to the wall so your point does not compute.

Did she set up a limited company though?
Even if she did, she would have SOME liability for unpaid debts. Limited liability does not equate to no liability.
I'm not sure that you are getting my point:
the bank lent her money to buy property, she is not repaying that money, so surely most people would agree that the bank should be allowed to reposses those properties for which they lent the money?

The Spider

stevedublin wrote: »

Did she set up a limited company though?
Even if she did, she would have SOME liability for unpaid debts. Limited liability does not equate to no liability.
I'm not sure that you are getting my point:
the bank lent her money to buy property, she is not repaying that money, so surely most people would agree that the bank should be allowed to reposses those properties for which they lent the money?

She said she has no problem letting them repossess, but they won't because the losses for the bank will be too great.

Villa05

OMD wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/aug/03/economy-economics-living-wage-manchester-liverpool-leeds-newcastle-sheffield

Half the population of Manchester earn less than £10.74.
Yeah real bubble time wages there. That's about €25,000 a year. So half the workers in Manchester earn less than €25,000 a year.

From you referenced article

You need to earn £7.22 an hour to have a reasonable quality of life in Manchester, according to the city's economic and social think-tank New Economy.

£7.22 p/h = £14642.16 per year

Average Salary Manchester = £26,956 or €31,606 not too far from the 35,000 average industrial wage in 2006 Ireland

With only 5.4% unemployment there are alot more salaries to go around

http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/salary-benefits/pay-salary-advice/uk-average-salary-graphs/article.aspx

Villa05

The Spider wrote: »

North of England wages are spectacularly low, especially for the same jobs down south, Manchester IS comparable to Limerick or Waterford, certainly not Dublin. Manchester IS not the centre of commerce in the Island, people DO NOT gravitate towards it, in the sand way they do towards Dublin here and London, next door.

Dublin, Capital of a bankrupt Island borrowing €1,000,000,000 per month to keep the lights on, paying €5,000,000,000 per year in interest payments alone to service this debt.
The lifeblood of commerce is Banking ALL the Banks operating within her boundaries went bust requiring a bailout (and requiring another one when this plays out) from the taxpayer or their mother company. A bad bank was proposed as a solution in 2008 and we managed to end up with 5 or 6 of em.

Centre of commerce!

Your right Dublin should not be compared to Manchester as far as Commerce is concerned

OMD

Villa05 wrote: »

From you referenced article

£7.22 p/h = £14642.16 per year

Average Salary Manchester = £26,956 or €31,606 not too far from the 35,000 average industrial wage in 2006 Ireland

With only 5.4% unemployment there are alot more salaries to go around

http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/salary-benefits/pay-salary-advice/uk-average-salary-graphs/article.aspx

You are quoting full time salaries for Manchester but not for Ireland. Using CSO figures http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH the average hourly wage in Ireland is €22.31 in Q1 2013 which gives an average wage of over €45,000 or 50% higher than the average in Manchester.

The Spider

Villa05 wrote: »

Dublin, Capital of a bankrupt Island borrowing €1,000,000,000 per month to keep the lights on, paying €5,000,000,000 per year in interest payments alone to service this debt.
The lifeblood of commerce is Banking ALL the Banks operating within her boundaries went bust requiring a bailout (and requiring another one when this plays out) from the taxpayer or their mother company. A bad bank was proposed as a solution in 2008 and we managed to end up with 5 or 6 of em.

Centre of commerce!

Your right Dublin should not be compared to Manchester as far as Commerce is concerned

You are missing the point, simple supply and demand, wages in Dublin are higher, Demand is higher, Supply is lower, c'mon this isn't rocket science, seriously...

gurramok

OMD wrote: »

You are quoting full time salaries for Manchester but not for Ireland. Using CSO figures http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=EHQ03.asp&TableName=Earnings+and+Labour+Costs&StatisticalProduct=DB_EH the average hourly wage in Ireland is €22.31 in Q1 2013 which gives an average wage of over €45,000 or 50% higher than the average in Manchester.

The Spider wrote: »

You are missing the point, simple supply and demand, wages in Dublin are higher, Demand is higher, Supply is lower, c'mon this isn't rocket science, seriously...

What is the average "full time salary/wage/average hourly wage" for Dublin?

107,000 are on the Live Register for Dublin, even after the numbers thrown onto FAS\Internships\BTEA and various education schemes in order to massage the figures.http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/latestheadlinefigures/lreg_jul2013.pdf

OMD

gurramok wrote: »

What is the average "full time salary/wage/average hourly wage" for Dublin?

Slightly higher than the national rate. Probably about €24 an hour giving an average wage of around €48,000. Much higher disposable income than the rest of the country and substantially lower unemployment. Why do you ask? The figures are easily available.