Glut of repossessed houses could depress prices ‘by up to 25%’

Mustard1972

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd love to see how he views this as not being against the law. I'm familiar with the law too- and it most certainly is a breach of contract law. Whether or not he will be pursued and to what extent- are entirely different matters- but if he is indeed a solicitor, then he should now the law- and know that he is indeed in breach of contract law.



He is being penalised in the system for the banks problems and is going to claw it back in whatever way he can? Clever accounting? Tax evasion is a crime. If he wants to live in Ireland- he has to pay tax the same as anyone else. He is not special- he is a low life- and the honest people of the country are picking up the tab for this low life.



If you want to overpay your mortgage- you discuss it with the bank in advance and specify exactly how the overpayment is to be handled. Banks do not put mortgage overpayments in deposit accounts- unless there is no instruction as to how the overpayment is to be handled. If you have the wherewithal to overpay your mortgage- you should use a modicum of common sense and actually tell your lender what you want done with the overpayment. If you don't- then thats your tough- you're foolish for imagining that someone is going to magically read your mind and say- ah- Sean must want me to take this off the principle of his mortgage and shorten the term of his mortgage- or reduce the future payments (as the case may be). Your bank manager isn't a mind reader you know.



If people breach the terms of their loans- their loan becomes delinquint and is subject to all sorts of restrictions. Thats life. Most people who borrow money- accept they have to repay it- and that there are terms associated with the loan. This parasite seems to think- the rules don't apply to him. Well- they do.

If insurance is missold- its a different matter- and the banks are liable to compensate people it was missold to. There are schemes in place to identify these people and make amends.

Repossessing the easy marks- may seem immoral- its not. Its simply gathering the low lying fruit first- before moving onto the harder cases. They will get there in due course.

Upping interest rates to ridiculous levels while ECB rates are going down?
I don't think you seem to get the concept that lenders have to borrow the money they are lending. They are not borrowing the money at ECB rates- they pay significantly more than the ECB overnight rates. Typically banks lend to one another- so a bank with excess liquidity gets a return on their liquidity by lending it to another bank. Typically Irish banks were getting loans at 4-5% on the interbank market- however, even now this source of lending is a pittance- it all dried up in 2008 (and is why the ECB operated its extraordinary lending for financial institutions). Just because the ECB overnight rate is 0.5% means nothing. Its not what the banks can borrow at- far from it. Its the rate the ECB pay to financial institutions for parking funds with them on an overnight basis. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for adding charges to people who breach their lending (go overdrawn or miss loan payments or whatever)- just what do you think these institutions are- charities? They are businesses like any other. They need to try to ensure they don't have to go back to the tax payer, yet again, for more funds. They need to get back onto an even keel. They are the gift of politicians to meddle with- as they choose, and they shouldn't be. Yes- we need more competition in the Irish market- but just as much as we need competition- we need to get the banks out of state ownership, and operating as a financial sector again- and not the sclerotic arms of the Minister for Finance or whichever other government minister decides to do a little kite flying.

There are charges associated with dealing with any financial institution. If you don't like this- you shouldn't have had dealings with them in the first place.

Are you suggesting every borrower in the country give the magic money tree a shake and magic away all our debts to some mysterious benefactor, who will never ever need be repaid- and the banks mysteriously operate as independent financial entities- in full competition with one another? Well- you can dream on, its not an ideal world- and while I'd love there to be a magic tree- we have to leave this to the realms of Enid Blyton.

To be fair Im not suggesting anything, i'm just telling one story that I have details of. I have heard other stories but dont really know the inner details of them so wouldnt bother repeating them. Just thought people would like to know this particular scenario.

It might be illegal in the same way as going 80mph on the motorway is illegal alright, but the punishment is even less severe than speeding on the motorway it seems.
People who dont pay your mortgage until forced by a court - What would be the amount of people getting jailed for it?

Vill05. I dont know what he signed or filled in with the banks when going interest only. I do know that he is the one calling the shots not them as if they really want to repossess they can start moving to do so, but will not because they stand to lose more by doing that than by keeping him on the hook until the property values hit the sweet spot for them. He will have moved to have the appears sorted out before it gets to a stage where they can repossess.

I know he has an account on boards. I'll ask him if he wants to come in and argue the point here. He is usually up for a good argument anyway so he might. But I have nothing to add on the subject anymore. Right or wrong, its just an account of one person with a few properties in arrears who isnt even in trouble.

I only know what the person told me will be the consequences (and i know him well enough to know that he knows exactly what he is doing), so I'll let the conductor elaborate on the punishments he believes that this person will receive since he is familiar with the law.

strandroad

I find it hard to believe that a solicitor would risk fraud/bankruptcy/being struck off the register for small change that €1500 is for any half decent solicitor, not to mention a multiple investor solicitor. If this is how he needs to pay for his holidays he's in trouble already and the banks taking his trackers off him (which they apparently do with arrears) will put him firmly under. I think he's telling you stories and has fun seeing you believe them.

Villa05

@ Mustard1972 I appreciate your contribution to the form, your posts are far too detailed to call you a troll, I believe you are genuine in what you say.

I believe stategic default is a major problem and needs to be rooted out. The Irish have been a nation of chancers since the beginning of time and will never waste an opportunity to dump their problems or exploit their neighbours. When Irish people left to escape the famine, who was their to exploit them only Paddy. The cute hoor is still a hero here despite our history.

Mustard1972

mhge wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a solicitor would risk fraud/bankruptcy/being struck off the register for small change that €1500 is for any half decent solicitor, not to mention a multiple investor solicitor. If this is how he needs to pay for his holidays he's in trouble already and the banks taking his trackers off him (which they apparently do with arrears) will put him firmly under. I think he's telling you stories and has fun seeing you believe them.

As I said before, he doesnt NEED to do it. He is using a situation to his advantage and has done his research and decided the risks arent there at all for him.

Can you point us to examples of how not paying your mortgages until a court compels you to has this has lead to charges for fraud/bankruptcy/being struck off then?

Well considering we are very close mates since the first day of school, I believe him. But you dont have to believe me at all. As I said, just relaying an example of someone with multiple mortgages in arrears and why they are in arrears.

If you could make €1500 for nothing would you do it?

Villa05

Mustard1972 wrote: »

As I said before, he doesnt NEED to do it. He is using a situation to his advantage and has done his research and decided the risks arent there at all for him.

How does he see this playing out? Does he expect to
- Keep the properties with debt write off
- Loose the properties with debt write off
- Where are the properties located (County)
- Has he increased the rent lately

el pasco

Galego wrote: »

But in the cases of repossessions and having to write debts off..........who is going to pick up that bill? Taxpayers again?

Good point if the banks start doing mass repossessions then the banks will have to write down billions which they don't have and the banks are owned by the state who also don't have billions so they'll most likely do a split mortgage and kick the can down the road for a another 20 years or so

el pasco

TheOldHand wrote: »

Repossessions suits everybody. This is the only way you can fix the market. What you are advocating is a horribly unfair system of social housing that benefits only a small section of society. People staying in properties with no regard for the area, size or value of the property. They've essentially jumped to the top of the housing list and we pay for it. I'd rather occupy some of these properties and i would be payig far less in mortgage or rental payments if the market finds its real level.

You're wrong where will the money come for a massive write down of this money the banks and the state don't have the money which would mean a second bail out which no one including the IMF ecb eu don't want better just to do a small write down and a split mortgage

The_Conductor

el pasco wrote: »

You're wrong where will the money come for a massive write down of this money the banks and the state don't have the money which would mean a second bail out which no one including the IMF ecb eu don't want better just to do a small write down and a split mortgage

We're due to exit the current bailout programme- however we have already sought a 'precautionary line of credit' in case we're unable to borrow on the international money markets on reasonable terms. Part of the terms of 'precautionary line of credit' at the insistence of the ECB, has been the signing of an accord with the IMF- so we are entering a defacto second bailout, whether we like it or not. For whatever reason- the media have chosen to ignore all of this- perhaps the headlines about the IMF being here for another 5 years, are too horrible for even the media to speculate on- whatever the reason- its going to happen.

Interesting article on the upcoming exit from the bailout from The Economist here

who_ru

The_Conductor wrote: »

We're due to exit the current bailout programme- however we have already sought a 'precautionary line of credit' in case we're unable to borrow on the international money markets on reasonable terms. Part of the terms of 'precautionary line of credit' at the insistence of the ECB, has been the signing of an accord with the IMF- so we are entering a defacto second bailout, whether we like it or not. For whatever reason- the media have chosen to ignore all of this- perhaps the headlines about the IMF being here for another 5 years, are too horrible for even the media to speculate on- whatever the reason- its going to happen.

Interesting article on the upcoming exit from the bailout from The Economist here

There will be no change in policy, austerity is here to stay for a long time. Kenny will hail the 'exit' as a great success and pronounce Ireland to be fully economically independent but that will be a lie, plain and simple.

The banks cannot give write downs across the board because their main shareholder, the Irish State, cannot afford to give them the billions needed to do this. So the stalemate continues, no resolution to the mortgage arrears crisis will be found, because a resolution cannot be funded.

so the dysfunctional economy will continue to dysfunction for a long time, more and more public services will be cut, health services will be cut, public transport will be cut, as for the Children's Hospital ever being built you can forget that, not going to happen. Massive state pensions to former public sector employees are more important than a new Children's Hospital.

And a previous poster is right, Paddy is calling the shots on the ground as to how austerity is applied, but boy does he play a cynical game. Society is being sh*t on by Edna and Eamon.

Mustard1972

Villa05 wrote: »

How does he see this playing out? Does he expect to
- Keep the properties with debt write off
- Loose the properties with debt write off
- Where are the properties located (County)
- Has he increased the rent lately

I already explained my understanding of how he expects it to play out.
Properties are all in Dublin. And all are making a healthy profit. Actually I forgot to mention before. He has one thats almost paid off, Only a few years left on the mortgage. He hasnt stopped paying on that one because that is one that the bank will move on if he doesnt pay, as the bank could actually repossess because they wouldnt lose out by repossessing it. Hes going to sell that one after its all paid off.
I dont know what rent he is charging on them. Im assuming market rent, so if that went up he would have increased his rent.
There is no change to the way he runs his properties.
I really dont know any more than that , but we're playing golf next week so i'll ask him to come here and post if he feels like it. He doesnt make any secret of it at all. Says its just business, so he might post here.

murphaph

Mustard1972 wrote: »

As I said before, he doesnt NEED to do it. He is using a situation to his advantage and has done his research and decided the risks arent there at all for him.

Can you point us to examples of how not paying your mortgages until a court compels you to has this has lead to charges for fraud/bankruptcy/being struck off then?

Well considering we are very close mates since the first day of school, I believe him. But you dont have to believe me at all. As I said, just relaying an example of someone with multiple mortgages in arrears and why they are in arrears.

If you could make €1500 for nothing would you do it?

He is risking his career for a few Euro a year. I think you think this guy is much cleverer than he really is. ireland is a small place and his name will get out and when it does he will not be employable and if he's self employed he will find it harder and harder to get customers. The internet means it's easy to run your potential solicitor's name through google to see what comes up.

strandroad

murphaph wrote: »

He is risking his career for a few Euro a year. I think you think this guy is much cleverer than he really is. ireland is a small place and his name will get out and when it does he will not be employable and if he's self employed he will find it harder and harder to get customers. The internet means it's easy to run your potential solicitor's name through google to see what comes up.

Isn't his credit rating shot already?

murphaph

mhge wrote: »

Isn't his credit rating shot already?

Yes, that much is clear. He will already by registered at the ICB as a defaulter. I'm guessing he doesn't care about this, but he might need credit at some point in the future and he won't get it. He would even have trouble getting a credit card.

padjo5

murphaph wrote: »

Yes, that much is clear. He will already by registered at the ICB as a defaulter. I'm guessing he doesn't care about this, but he might need credit at some point in the future and he won't get it. He would even have trouble getting a credit card.

Are individuals working in legal professions obliged to declare their their 'fitness&probity', as those in certain financial roles are?

jay0109

Mustard1972 wrote: »

My friend has plenty of money and a good job (solicitor) but isnt bothered paying his mortgage on either his own house or his 4 investment properties.
He is on trackers for them all and has decided to put the money where it earns more than the tracker interest is. Says he is making about €1500 a month by doing this.
He ignores any letters from the bank. He says he will come to a deal with the bank which is very favourable to him. But if he doesnt get that deal then when at the last ditch he will just pay off the arrears and it will all be over and back to normal, but for the moment is earning more than the interest that is accruing.

People say that the bank can take him off the tracker and they have been threatening that for years, but he says they cant do that at all. And im sure that if they could have they would have.

He says that the difference in the rates pays for his holidays every year and then some - and he goes on some nice holidays.

I wouldnt have the balls to do it, but he seems to know what he is doing.

You have 'nice' friends:mad:

I see you said earlier he's continuing to pay his taxes on the rent received. I presume he now cannot claim mortgage interest (75% is allowable) so as to reduce his tax liability? Must be paying a lot more in tax so...and if the bank do call him up on this, he'll have more than just arears to pay for as penatlies will be applied and the interest will have accrued

Mustard1972

I only know one expert on the subject who isn't an armchair internet expert. I'll try and get him to post here next week.
he has no problem letting anyone know what and why he is doing it at all, be they the banks, tax man, friends, colleagues.

I don't know if he is writing off mortgage interest relief (which is probably hardly anything for trackers), whether he counts a loss of that in his final numbers for how much he is saving doing this or whether he can be departnered, if that's a word , from his own practice, or whether he can be fired from the other companies he owns. I would say he is a clever as I think he is to be fair, and the "experts" here are not as clever as they think they are, but that's message boards for.you.

uberalles

murphaph wrote: »

He is risking his career for a few Euro a year. I think you think this guy is much cleverer than he really is. ireland is a small place and his name will get out and when it does he will not be employable and if he's self employed he will find it harder and harder to get customers. The internet means it's easy to run your potential solicitor's name through google to see what comes up.

Id say like most people he doesnt have an obvious boards user name. He isnt going to reveal his practice name either. Id like to read what this person has to say.

I was speaking to a solicitor who was saying a few people he knows simply dont have the $ to pay the mortgage and if done right the property can be kept for 4 years approx (that was 2 years ago he made that comment)

jmayo

The Spider wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-investors-given-50pc-mortgage-writeoffs-29505899.html

Write downs on the way, a lottery at the moment, but sooner or later this will be spread to all borrowers. Anyone hoping for that cheap repo, keep dreaming, bottom was last year.

I just love how you usaully resort to the property investors/speculators favourite paper to back up your points. :rolleyes:

mhge wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a solicitor would risk fraud/bankruptcy/being struck off the register for small change that €1500 is for any half decent solicitor, not to mention a multiple investor solicitor. If this is how he needs to pay for his holidays he's in trouble already and the banks taking his trackers off him (which they apparently do with arrears) will put him firmly under. I think he's telling you stories and has fun seeing you believe them.

I don't think you know that many solicitors.

And even in cases of serious issues like forging documents to avoid tax liabilities solictors get off with a slap on the wrist from the law society.
Even when cases are brought to high court they just get a slightly bigger slap, but get to keep their positions and continue to practice, if somewhat limited.
Sometimes I think that profession are as bad as some of the people they represent.

Villa05

More runblings of an Ulster Bank Exit

RBS has hired consultants Rothschild and BlackRock to advise on such a split and they are due to report in the coming weeks. As part of that process it is understood they are having a long, hard look at operations in Ireland.

What they will see is a bank that has €23.5 billion of mortgages and has set aside €4 billion for impairments. That indicates that 18% of its residential loans are in trouble.

http://www.rte.ie/blogs/business/2013/08/26/is-ulster-bank-going-to-quit-ireland/

Villa05

who_ru wrote: »

When you read about the levels of arrears, and 5 years after the collapse started, and so little done.

is it any wonder the IMF are running the show here? We are so grotesquely incompetent at running our affairs in a responsible fashion.

Plus has anyone else noticed how almost no Govt ministers are waffling on about 'exiting' the bailout now, despite going on non stop about it for ages. Can't see it happening myself.

There is a thread over in the Economy Forum titled "The elephant in the room: how do we employ the idiots?" suggesting that the people on SW are the idiots

A far more pressing problem in my opinion is how to efficiently get rid of incompetent people in powerful positions that have created things like welfare traps, Zombie Banks, highly inefficient public services, multiple do nothing quango's

jay0109

Villa05 wrote: »

There is a thread over in the Economy Forum titled "The elephant in the room: how do we employ the idiots?" suggesting that the people on SW are the idiots

A far more pressing problem in my opinion is how to efficiently get rid of incompetent people in powerful positions that have created things like welfare traps, Zombie Banks, highly inefficient public services, multiple do nothing quango's

Can't get rid of them...Unions won't allow it:o
The pension them off option only works for the older ones. The send them to europe option only works for the very well connected!

wexie

Villa05 wrote: »

There is a thread over in the Economy Forum titled "The elephant in the room: how do we employ the idiots?" suggesting that the people on SW are the idiots

A far more pressing problem in my opinion is how to efficiently get rid of incompetent people in powerful positions that have created things like welfare traps, Zombie Banks, highly inefficient public services, multiple do nothing quango's

I think there's an easy solution to this : actually hold them accountable for their performance and the mismanagement (fraud?) in their organisations and let the law apply to

Y'know...like they do in civilised countries?

Someone gets caught taken the piss with expense accounts? No golden handshakes and keeping the company car to make them go away quietly, a very public and very ugly fraud case.

Someone gets caught employing their mates and family? Friends and family sacked without pension or any entitlements. Person hiring them up on charges.

****ed around on your VAT returns? Well I'm afraid you can no longer be a politician as we require them to have some ethics. Oh and by they way, Revenue would like to know when you're moving out of your house as we're taking it.

Send out the message these things will no longer be tolerated and there will be no more covering anything with the mantle of love.

Nonsense will stop soon enough.

Of course you need some politicians with morals and ethics (and balls) to get something like this started.

Guess we're ****ed for the foreseeable future so :mad:

Villa05

Mortgage Lending down 2.2% in the 2nd Quarter - 14th consecutive quarter of declines
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/mortgage-lending-falls-again-despite-surge-in-house-prices-29532186.html

Sorry about the Indo link, they never miss an opportunity to pimp property. It truly is a rag of epic proportions

cookie1977

Villa05 wrote: »

Mortgage Lending down 2.2% in the 2nd Quarter - 14th consecutive quarter of declines
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/mortgage-lending-falls-again-despite-surge-in-house-prices-29532186.html

Sorry about the Indo link, they never miss an opportunity to pimp property. It truly is a rag of epic proportions

To be fair from what I can see what has fallen is the actual amount loaned and not the amount of lending. It's a terrible title for the article. According to the ibf, mortgage draw downs are still at similar levels to last year:
http://www.ibf.ie/Libraries/Research_Statistics/IBF_PwC_Mortgage_Market_Profile_Q2_2013.sflb.ashx

2012 Q2 total draw downs = 3225
2013 Q2 total draw downs = 3229

But yes we are still in the doldrums and any "increased prices in select areas" we see now wont become apparent in the above figures for a few quarters.

homerjay2005

washman3 wrote: »

With the introduction of Property tax and water charges i expect house prices to fall at least 10% over the next 12 months.

hmmm i dunno, the property set up is so corrupt this wont be allowed to happen.

gaius c

Link

Borrowed six million euro for:

Kennycourt Stud in Brannockstown — has been at the centre of a legal battle between its former owner Eugene McDermott

Yeah, that's real "Middle Ireland" right there.

It's beyond greedy...

cookie1977

Never heard of this trust:

Mr Allen said the Rodolphus Allen trust has just under 2,000 people in it. It is estimated there are just over €2bn in current assets in it.

nomoreindie

cookie1977 wrote: »

Never heard of this trust:

They have been holding meetings around the Country over the past few months,can't see them succeeding longterm in what they are trying

jmayo

So who is this charlie allen and who the fook was Rodolphus Allen ?

Isn't is marvellous how one can now transfer assets that have been used as collateral and have something similar to an outstanding lien in affect on them ?

Oh wait the likes of the quinns, quinlans, ronans, mcnamaras, dunnes have probably done it, so why not.

Fook it isn't marvellous how normal lender/borrower rules don't apply once it is an modern day Irish person and their property.

I just love their use of the term middle Irelanders.
I guess that "poor" elderly couple in Dalkey/Killiney with all their rental portfolio are the type of middle Irelanders they have in mind.

Fook them out pure and simple.
This nettle has to be grasped or else why should anyone now bother paying their debts.

jay0109

here's some more middle ireland for you
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/mum-of-four-ordered-to-leave-700000-home-in-loan-row-29537775.html

Not paid a penny on the mortgage of an expensive red brick in D6 since 2010, despite her partner having a job and what appears to be tenants sharing the house.
Seems to have being sending kids to an expensive private school, though not paying the fees as they're chasing her now also.

And the Judge throws her another 6 months in the gaff